On July 10 2014 06:22 submarine wrote: Concerning Templar openings vs Widowmines:
What if they reduced the health of Mines from 90 to something under 80? -Sniping mines before they borrow would be a little bit easier -HTs would be a soft counter to widowmines even without detection, because they could use 1 storm to clear mines
I think this should be enough to make HT openings viable again.
Protoss doesn't struggle in PvT at all so that would just be pointless. The matchup will just be more boring. I mean it would kind of work, but it's not something that is going to happen any time soon.
It would be just a number change. Same as the change to the radius or damage of the widow mine.
Why exactly would the Mu be more boring if HT openings were possible?
The way i see it is: 1. The mine buff will result in a few more early to early mid game victories for terran. 2. Toss might play a tad more conservative over all; this will lead to a few more mid game victories for terran. 3. HT openings will be even more dead. And they are already not viable.
If you add the health reduction on top of the radius buff you will still achieve 1 and 2 while making HT openings a possibility again. Terran does not really have a problem to scout if toss goes for colossus or HT. Toss will not really win more games if they can choose between both routes. The game is just more interesting if both routes are possible.
On July 10 2014 06:22 submarine wrote: Concerning Templar openings vs Widowmines:
What if they reduced the health of Mines from 90 to something under 80? -Sniping mines before they borrow would be a little bit easier -HTs would be a soft counter to widowmines even without detection, because they could use 1 storm to clear mines
I think this should be enough to make HT openings viable again.
would be 1 bane less I think, not good.
Add one base armor then. I am not even sure if this is even needed, because mines will be a lot stronger with the proposed radius change. Even with reduced health mines will be a far better over all.
On July 10 2014 04:31 fenix404 wrote: i would like to point out that thor anti air outranges colossus. i have been suggesting this as a colo counter since HotS changed the ability to switch to single target AA. this will make is much more manageable in a larger army. thor change is good, and i would like to see them used more in TvP even if its just one or two. i would really hope that pros utilize this thor payload switch more often, i think it has more uses than we see.
I think the reason you don't see High Impact Payload used to counter colossus is the AA dps vs a colossus is 12, which is pretty low for a four-food unit. Two vikings give you 20 dps and have way better maneuverability.
since thors cost 6 food and not 4, this reason is even more to the point.
The main reason why you dont see high impact payload is that it is impossible to make Thors use it vs Colossi, as far as I know. They simply dont attacl them until they are in 7ground attack range and then use their 46dps attack instead of the 8-12 antair one.
It is possible to attack colossi with the alternative anti air mode:
The problem is that the DPS is so low that your bio will be dead before the colossi start to die.
Oh cool. I didnt know that. Is that different to the normal GtA or can you do it with that as well?
Sorry I don't know, and I am not able to test it myself right now. But I am sure it would be even worse^^
I just realized: If they go through with the change to the target priority of thors this will be yet another nail in the coffin of Mech TvP because colossi could be used to tank 12 DPS thors.
On July 10 2014 06:22 submarine wrote: Concerning Templar openings vs Widowmines:
What if they reduced the health of Mines from 90 to something under 80? -Sniping mines before they borrow would be a little bit easier -HTs would be a soft counter to widowmines even without detection, because they could use 1 storm to clear mines
I think this should be enough to make HT openings viable again.
Protoss doesn't struggle in PvT at all so that would just be pointless. The matchup will just be more boring. I mean it would kind of work, but it's not something that is going to happen any time soon.
It would be just a number change. Same as the change to the radius or damage of the widow mine.
Why exactly would the Mu be more boring if HT openings were possible?
The way i see it is: 1. The mine buff will result in a few more early to early mid game victories for terran. 2. Toss might play a tad more conservative over all; this will lead to a few more mid game victories for terran. 3. HT openings will be even more dead. And they are already not viable.
If you add the health reduction on top of the radius buff you will still achieve 1 and 2 while making HT openings a possibility again. Terran does not really have a problem to scout if toss goes for colossus or HT. Toss will not really win more games if they can choose between both routes. The game is just more interesting if both routes are possible.
Widow mines do not make templar openings impossible. Such a statement is the same as saying templar openings make opening with bio impossible. A well landed storm can do far more damage than a well landed widow mine hit, especially since Protoss units have large collision radius and high hitpoints. They just require that the Protoss micro and split their units.
Is balance really the biggest issue? The game's not that fun to play. It needs more dynamic, interesting units... less weird bs like cannon rushing, though weedamins is awesome.
Does anyone else have this in common with me?
I only watch streams for the storylines or for big meta changes. I've went from 5 friends who played to 0. I can't even get anyone to watch it with me anymore. 1 friend refused to buy hots after wol.
It ain't right.
Can we help spread the word and create pressure to get Rob Pardo to replace Browder as head of Sc2? Pardo led the team for broodwar, frozen throne, and wow/BC. We need to make this a thing before LotV development starts. Think about it.
On July 10 2014 06:22 submarine wrote: Concerning Templar openings vs Widowmines:
What if they reduced the health of Mines from 90 to something under 80? -Sniping mines before they borrow would be a little bit easier -HTs would be a soft counter to widowmines even without detection, because they could use 1 storm to clear mines
I think this should be enough to make HT openings viable again.
Protoss doesn't struggle in PvT at all so that would just be pointless. The matchup will just be more boring. I mean it would kind of work, but it's not something that is going to happen any time soon.
It would be just a number change. Same as the change to the radius or damage of the widow mine.
Why exactly would the Mu be more boring if HT openings were possible?
The way i see it is: 1. The mine buff will result in a few more early to early mid game victories for terran. 2. Toss might play a tad more conservative over all; this will lead to a few more mid game victories for terran. 3. HT openings will be even more dead. And they are already not viable.
If you add the health reduction on top of the radius buff you will still achieve 1 and 2 while making HT openings a possibility again. Terran does not really have a problem to scout if toss goes for colossus or HT. Toss will not really win more games if they can choose between both routes. The game is just more interesting if both routes are possible.
Widow mines do not make templar openings impossible. Such a statement is the same as saying templar openings make opening with bio impossible. A well landed storm can do far more damage than a well landed widow mine hit, especially since Protoss units have large collision radius and high hitpoints. They just require that the Protoss micro and split their units.
Ok; impossible is a quite hard way to put it. Still, HT openings seem to be less common right now, and widowmines seem to be the reason. With even stronger mines they might be a even worse choice. I do not like this, because i think HT openings are more fun to watch, to play and to play against.
On July 10 2014 07:05 CutTheEnemy wrote: Can we help spread the word and create pressure to get Rob Pardo to replace Browder as head of Sc2? Pardo led the team for broodwar, frozen throne, and wow/BC. We need to make this a thing before LotV development starts. Think about it.
On July 10 2014 06:22 submarine wrote: Concerning Templar openings vs Widowmines:
What if they reduced the health of Mines from 90 to something under 80? -Sniping mines before they borrow would be a little bit easier -HTs would be a soft counter to widowmines even without detection, because they could use 1 storm to clear mines
I think this should be enough to make HT openings viable again.
Protoss doesn't struggle in PvT at all so that would just be pointless. The matchup will just be more boring. I mean it would kind of work, but it's not something that is going to happen any time soon.
I agree completely about Templar openings being much more entertaining. My question is: are they really unviable right now? Or are they simply less reliable than Colossus openings? Because those aren't the same thing. PvT lategame (Colossus) was Protoss favored at the end of WOL, it's only gotten more so in HOTS.
What if we make Colo opening even less viable than Templar will be with new WM? (I don't know how yet, I'm just testing the waters.) Templar opening will be less godly than it was 3 months ago, that's a plus, but Protoss will still use it (because lack of clearly superior alternative).
Obviously giving Terrans more options is preferable to taking options away from Protoss, but I don't think Blizzard sees it that way.
On July 10 2014 06:22 submarine wrote: Concerning Templar openings vs Widowmines:
What if they reduced the health of Mines from 90 to something under 80? -Sniping mines before they borrow would be a little bit easier -HTs would be a soft counter to widowmines even without detection, because they could use 1 storm to clear mines
I think this should be enough to make HT openings viable again.
Protoss doesn't struggle in PvT at all so that would just be pointless. The matchup will just be more boring. I mean it would kind of work, but it's not something that is going to happen any time soon.
I agree completely about Templar openings being much more entertaining. My question is: are they really unviable right now? Or are they simply less reliable than Colossus openings? Because those aren't the same thing. PvT lategame (Colossus) was Protoss favored at the end of WOL, it's only gotten more so in HOTS.
What if we make Colo opening even less viable than Templar will be with new WM? (I don't know how yet, I'm just testing the waters.) Templar opening will be less godly than it was 3 months ago, that's a plus, but Protoss will still use it (because lack of clearly superior alternative).
Obviously giving Terrans more options is preferable to taking options away from Protoss, but I don't think Blizzard sees it that way.
They're pretty non-viable right now, yeah. Bio/mine pushes make the zealots that accompany them pretty worthless. Even if you split your zealots perfectly, it's still efficient for terran to kill only 1 zealot with a mine at the engagement. Even if you land a couple storms, it doesn't matter because no other units are left alive to finish off the weakened bio.
On July 10 2014 06:22 submarine wrote: Concerning Templar openings vs Widowmines:
What if they reduced the health of Mines from 90 to something under 80? -Sniping mines before they borrow would be a little bit easier -HTs would be a soft counter to widowmines even without detection, because they could use 1 storm to clear mines
I think this should be enough to make HT openings viable again.
Protoss doesn't struggle in PvT at all so that would just be pointless. The matchup will just be more boring. I mean it would kind of work, but it's not something that is going to happen any time soon.
I agree completely about Templar openings being much more entertaining. My question is: are they really unviable right now? Or are they simply less reliable than Colossus openings? Because those aren't the same thing. PvT lategame (Colossus) was Protoss favored at the end of WOL, it's only gotten more so in HOTS.
What if we make Colo opening even less viable than Templar will be with new WM? (I don't know how yet, I'm just testing the waters.) Templar opening will be less godly than it was 3 months ago, that's a plus, but Protoss will still use it (because lack of clearly superior alternative).
Obviously giving Terrans more options is preferable to taking options away from Protoss, but I don't think Blizzard sees it that way.
They're pretty non-viable right now, yeah. Bio/mine pushes make the zealots that accompany them pretty worthless. Even if you split your zealots perfectly, it's still efficient for terran to kill only 1 zealot with a mine at the engagement. Even if you land a couple storms, it doesn't matter because no other units are left alive to finish off the weakened bio.
Would you happen to know of any Korean games where this happened? I'd love to see how it plays out, but I haven't come across any post-patch.
On July 10 2014 04:31 fenix404 wrote: i would like to point out that thor anti air outranges colossus. i have been suggesting this as a colo counter since HotS changed the ability to switch to single target AA. this will make is much more manageable in a larger army. thor change is good, and i would like to see them used more in TvP even if its just one or two. i would really hope that pros utilize this thor payload switch more often, i think it has more uses than we see.
I think the reason you don't see High Impact Payload used to counter colossus is the AA dps vs a colossus is 12, which is pretty low for a four-food unit. Two vikings give you 20 dps and have way better maneuverability.
since thors cost 6 food and not 4, this reason is even more to the point.
The main reason why you dont see high impact payload is that it is impossible to make Thors use it vs Colossi, as far as I know. They simply dont attacl them until they are in 7ground attack range and then use their 46dps attack instead of the 8-12 antair one.
It is possible to attack colossi with the alternative anti air mode: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi-057UPkjs The problem is that the DPS is so low that your bio will be dead before the colossi start to die.
That was such a bad example lol.. Basically it's not Thors that won that one, but instead the 2 PDDs placed near
I guess that maybe Thors could use some vs Shield AA buff in the HIP mode, but, kinda "stylish" to ever work well that one
Also - TRUE that mech wins over that one, BUT Protoss should've scouted and got Stargate units instead.. Basically every "smart" Protoss does that one - scout mech ? - get Voidray/Tempest and "roast" Terran to the ground (the difference though is I that never had nor my opponents has PDDs to make that mech really count )
On July 10 2014 08:44 pure.Wasted wrote: Would you happen to know of any Korean games where this happened? I'd love to see how it plays out, but I haven't come across any post-patch.
Watch today's Ryung vs Sjaak Habitation-Station game.. Ryung had mass BioMine instead of BioVac
i mean i guess the changes are good....(a buff is better than nothing, especially to the widow mine), however i feel lately blizz is not really paying as good attention to the playerbase as they have been over the past 2 or so years.
these changes don't really affect the terran late game at all...
and thors don't need that buff either.
widow mine is a decent change, but the issue is still avoided...
that's my opinion at least, and i have a few professional player friends that agree.
i guess the benefit of having a test map first is to see how it plays out...i wish more players actually tested it though xd
On July 10 2014 07:05 CutTheEnemy wrote: Can we help spread the word and create pressure to get Rob Pardo to replace Browder as head of Sc2? Pardo led the team for broodwar, frozen throne, and wow/BC. We need to make this a thing before LotV development starts. Think about it.
On July 10 2014 06:22 submarine wrote: Concerning Templar openings vs Widowmines:
What if they reduced the health of Mines from 90 to something under 80? -Sniping mines before they borrow would be a little bit easier -HTs would be a soft counter to widowmines even without detection, because they could use 1 storm to clear mines
I think this should be enough to make HT openings viable again.
Protoss doesn't struggle in PvT at all so that would just be pointless. The matchup will just be more boring. I mean it would kind of work, but it's not something that is going to happen any time soon.
I agree completely about Templar openings being much more entertaining. My question is: are they really unviable right now? Or are they simply less reliable than Colossus openings? Because those aren't the same thing. PvT lategame (Colossus) was Protoss favored at the end of WOL, it's only gotten more so in HOTS.
What if we make Colo opening even less viable than Templar will be with new WM? (I don't know how yet, I'm just testing the waters.) Templar opening will be less godly than it was 3 months ago, that's a plus, but Protoss will still use it (because lack of clearly superior alternative).
Obviously giving Terrans more options is preferable to taking options away from Protoss, but I don't think Blizzard sees it that way.
They're pretty non-viable right now, yeah. Bio/mine pushes make the zealots that accompany them pretty worthless. Even if you split your zealots perfectly, it's still efficient for terran to kill only 1 zealot with a mine at the engagement. Even if you land a couple storms, it doesn't matter because no other units are left alive to finish off the weakened bio.
Would you happen to know of any Korean games where this happened? I'd love to see how it plays out, but I haven't come across any post-patch.
There are a few that were very recently post-patch, but there aren't many. It took a very short amount of time for protoss players to abandon templar play before colossus, it wasn't working for them at all in practice.
On July 10 2014 06:22 submarine wrote: Concerning Templar openings vs Widowmines:
What if they reduced the health of Mines from 90 to something under 80? -Sniping mines before they borrow would be a little bit easier -HTs would be a soft counter to widowmines even without detection, because they could use 1 storm to clear mines
I think this should be enough to make HT openings viable again.
Protoss doesn't struggle in PvT at all so that would just be pointless. The matchup will just be more boring. I mean it would kind of work, but it's not something that is going to happen any time soon.
I agree completely about Templar openings being much more entertaining. My question is: are they really unviable right now? Or are they simply less reliable than Colossus openings? Because those aren't the same thing. PvT lategame (Colossus) was Protoss favored at the end of WOL, it's only gotten more so in HOTS.
What if we make Colo opening even less viable than Templar will be with new WM? (I don't know how yet, I'm just testing the waters.) Templar opening will be less godly than it was 3 months ago, that's a plus, but Protoss will still use it (because lack of clearly superior alternative).
Obviously giving Terrans more options is preferable to taking options away from Protoss, but I don't think Blizzard sees it that way.
They're pretty non-viable right now, yeah. Bio/mine pushes make the zealots that accompany them pretty worthless. Even if you split your zealots perfectly, it's still efficient for terran to kill only 1 zealot with a mine at the engagement. Even if you land a couple storms, it doesn't matter because no other units are left alive to finish off the weakened bio.
Would you happen to know of any Korean games where this happened? I'd love to see how it plays out, but I haven't come across any post-patch.
There are a few that were very recently post-patch, but there aren't many. It took a very short amount of time for protoss players to abandon templar play before colossus, it wasn't working for them at all in practice.
Yeah but the problem with that is, it doesn't tell us if Templar is actually underpowered or simply balanced. If Colossus is OP and Templar is "just right," mediocre Protoss players will start losing a lot of their Templar games and perceive Templar openings to be relatively underpowered. That doesn't mean they're actually underpowered. What could be happening is that Terran is finally performing at a 1/1/1 ratio which would lead to Terran re-filling the ladder and tournaments, which is what we ultimately want. Let's say Crank goes Templar against Innovation and loses a game he wouldn't have lost 2 months ago, that doesn't mean Templar is terrible, it could just mean Crank never had any right to beat Innovation period.
In this case, it would be in our best interests to nerf Colo harder than Templar, so that Templar, weak as it is, still seems the superior option.
I haven't seen any of these games, and the one between Ryung and Sjaak isn't available anywhere that I can see, so I can't begin to guess if Templar is actually underpowered or just the first fair Protoss lategame since they learned to survive 1/1/1 (by getting it nerfed).
On July 10 2014 06:22 submarine wrote: Concerning Templar openings vs Widowmines:
What if they reduced the health of Mines from 90 to something under 80? -Sniping mines before they borrow would be a little bit easier -HTs would be a soft counter to widowmines even without detection, because they could use 1 storm to clear mines
I think this should be enough to make HT openings viable again.
Protoss doesn't struggle in PvT at all so that would just be pointless. The matchup will just be more boring. I mean it would kind of work, but it's not something that is going to happen any time soon.
I agree completely about Templar openings being much more entertaining. My question is: are they really unviable right now? Or are they simply less reliable than Colossus openings? Because those aren't the same thing. PvT lategame (Colossus) was Protoss favored at the end of WOL, it's only gotten more so in HOTS.
What if we make Colo opening even less viable than Templar will be with new WM? (I don't know how yet, I'm just testing the waters.) Templar opening will be less godly than it was 3 months ago, that's a plus, but Protoss will still use it (because lack of clearly superior alternative).
Obviously giving Terrans more options is preferable to taking options away from Protoss, but I don't think Blizzard sees it that way.
They're pretty non-viable right now, yeah. Bio/mine pushes make the zealots that accompany them pretty worthless. Even if you split your zealots perfectly, it's still efficient for terran to kill only 1 zealot with a mine at the engagement. Even if you land a couple storms, it doesn't matter because no other units are left alive to finish off the weakened bio.
Would you happen to know of any Korean games where this happened? I'd love to see how it plays out, but I haven't come across any post-patch.
There are a few that were very recently post-patch, but there aren't many. It took a very short amount of time for protoss players to abandon templar play before colossus, it wasn't working for them at all in practice.
Yeah but the problem with that is, it doesn't tell us if Templar is actually underpowered or simply balanced. If Colossus is OP and Templar is "just right," mediocre Protoss players will start losing a lot of their Templar games and perceive Templar openings to be relatively underpowered. That doesn't mean they're actually underpowered. What could be happening is that Terran is finally performing at a 1/1/1 ratio which would lead to Terran re-filling the ladder and tournaments, which is what we ultimately want. Let's say Crank goes Templar against Innovation and loses a game he wouldn't have lost 2 months ago, that doesn't mean Templar is terrible, it could just mean Crank never had any right to beat Innovation period.
In this case, it would be in our best interests to nerf Colo harder than Templar, so that Templar, weak as it is, still seems the superior option.
I haven't seen any of these games, and the one between Ryung and Sjaak isn't available anywhere that I can see, so I can't begin to guess if Templar is actually underpowered or just the first fair Protoss lategame since they learned to survive 1/1/1 (by getting it nerfed).
We had players like Rain losing to random terrans that he is much better than while going templar openings. Every korean toss has abandoned templar openings, which they had previously MUCH preferred. Players regularly die to scv all-ins while going colossus, it took a player like herO to show a metagame move that held just fine against the scv pull, but was a gamble because it abandoned all later tech and would have died hard to a heavier viking marine/marauder push a minute or two later.
On July 10 2014 06:22 submarine wrote: Concerning Templar openings vs Widowmines:
What if they reduced the health of Mines from 90 to something under 80? -Sniping mines before they borrow would be a little bit easier -HTs would be a soft counter to widowmines even without detection, because they could use 1 storm to clear mines
I think this should be enough to make HT openings viable again.
Protoss doesn't struggle in PvT at all so that would just be pointless. The matchup will just be more boring. I mean it would kind of work, but it's not something that is going to happen any time soon.
I agree completely about Templar openings being much more entertaining. My question is: are they really unviable right now? Or are they simply less reliable than Colossus openings? Because those aren't the same thing. PvT lategame (Colossus) was Protoss favored at the end of WOL, it's only gotten more so in HOTS.
What if we make Colo opening even less viable than Templar will be with new WM? (I don't know how yet, I'm just testing the waters.) Templar opening will be less godly than it was 3 months ago, that's a plus, but Protoss will still use it (because lack of clearly superior alternative).
Obviously giving Terrans more options is preferable to taking options away from Protoss, but I don't think Blizzard sees it that way.
They're pretty non-viable right now, yeah. Bio/mine pushes make the zealots that accompany them pretty worthless. Even if you split your zealots perfectly, it's still efficient for terran to kill only 1 zealot with a mine at the engagement. Even if you land a couple storms, it doesn't matter because no other units are left alive to finish off the weakened bio.
Would you happen to know of any Korean games where this happened? I'd love to see how it plays out, but I haven't come across any post-patch.
There are a few that were very recently post-patch, but there aren't many. It took a very short amount of time for protoss players to abandon templar play before colossus, it wasn't working for them at all in practice.
Yeah but the problem with that is, it doesn't tell us if Templar is actually underpowered or simply balanced. If Colossus is OP and Templar is "just right," mediocre Protoss players will start losing a lot of their Templar games and perceive Templar openings to be relatively underpowered. That doesn't mean they're actually underpowered. What could be happening is that Terran is finally performing at a 1/1/1 ratio which would lead to Terran re-filling the ladder and tournaments, which is what we ultimately want. Let's say Crank goes Templar against Innovation and loses a game he wouldn't have lost 2 months ago, that doesn't mean Templar is terrible, it could just mean Crank never had any right to beat Innovation period.
In this case, it would be in our best interests to nerf Colo harder than Templar, so that Templar, weak as it is, still seems the superior option.
I haven't seen any of these games, and the one between Ryung and Sjaak isn't available anywhere that I can see, so I can't begin to guess if Templar is actually underpowered or just the first fair Protoss lategame since they learned to survive 1/1/1 (by getting it nerfed).
We had players like Rain losing to random terrans that he is much better than while going templar openings. Every korean toss has abandoned templar openings, which they had previously MUCH preferred. Players regularly die to scv all-ins while going colossus, it took a player like herO to show a metagame move that held just fine against the scv pull, but was a gamble because it abandoned all later tech and would have died hard to a heavier viking marine/marauder push a minute or two later.
SCV all-ins are stupid. If I had my way, they wouldn't exist.
Also they wouldn't need to exist, because Terrans would feel comfortable going up against late-game Protoss armies.
SCV all-ins beating Colossus openings doesn't mean Colossus is balanced. Archon toilet beat plenty of BL/Infestor compositions... and Archon toilet was still stupid, and BL/Infestor was still imbalanced.
On July 09 2014 02:47 Faust852 wrote: Everyone arguing about TW and Thors, but guys, the WM buff would be OP as fuck. Ok for full damage in 1,5 instead of 1,25, that would be the middle between pre and post nerf, but going this far as doing AoE in 2,5 is freaking huge. The WM will be wayyy more OP than before its nerf.
Banelings have pretty big splash too. Its 2.2 for such a cheap unit. And it does full damage in the WHOLE radius.
I'm scared of the friendly fire WM splash coming my way.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/s0tZnij.jpg)
