EPTHe's terrific at farming money off of foreigners but when you put him against players at or above his tier and he doesn't look nearly as dominant.
WCS AM: Pigbaby upsets Taeja + Ro4 Preview - Page 2
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Vindicare605
United States16126 Posts
He's terrific at farming money off of foreigners but when you put him against players at or above his tier and he doesn't look nearly as dominant. | ||
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Kasaraki
Denmark7115 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Or the next Zest. + Show Spoiler + Or the next Dear. + Show Spoiler + I'll stop there. | ||
nimdil
Poland3774 Posts
On July 07 2014 04:58 Vindicare605 wrote: He's terrific at farming money off of foreigners but when you put him against players at or above his tier and he doesn't look nearly as dominant. You realize that he is behind Leenock and HerO in this regard so not exactly terrific. | ||
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Varroth
Sweden471 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On July 07 2014 05:37 nimdil wrote: You realize that he is behind Leenock and HerO in this regard so not exactly terrific. And those two ain't that superb either. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
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LightSpectra
United States3271 Posts
The reason why he hasn't won any WCSs yet is because SC2 is so volatile. It only takes one scrappy series of build order losses to get eliminated, or one groggy day where you don't get enough sleep to make game-losing blunders. And that's not a criticism of the game, I mean even in BW, Flash was once knocked out of the OSL at the peak of his skill by Kal and Hyuk. SC2 and BW aren't games where good intellectual preparation is all you need to win. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16126 Posts
On July 07 2014 05:37 nimdil wrote: You realize that he is behind Leenock and HerO in this regard so not exactly terrific. Leenock and HerO are never specifically mentioned when people discuss who the best players of their given race are. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On July 07 2014 06:19 LightSpectra wrote: this enduring myth that Taeja's win rates are solely against Korean B-teamers and foreigners is preposterous to the max. He has a positive win ratio against something like 30 out of 32 of the players in last season's Code S. The reason why he hasn't won any WCSs yet is because SC2 is so volatile. It only takes one scrappy series of build order losses to get eliminated, or one groggy day where you don't get enough sleep to make game-losing blunders. And that's not a criticism of the game, I mean even in BW, Flash was once knocked out of the OSL at the peak of his skill by Kal and Hyuk. SC2 and BW aren't games where good intellectual preparation is all you need to win. In what tournament is he playing 30 out of the 32 Code S players? I'm really curious. In the last 3 months, the only Code S players he has played against are Innovation and Symbol (Symbol isn't even in Code S anymore btw, he got 1-4ed out of his group in the RO32). He lost twice to Symbol and traded series 1-1 with Innovation. To find wins against actual Code S players you need to go back even further than that to Katowice where he beat Life, but lost to sOs. He got 4-0ed by Ragnarok in the King of Iron in March... I'm still trawling back to 2013 in order to find him actually beating Code S players (which was mostly Life and a BO3 against sOs at Dreamhack Winter 2013). If you want to count the last few years of performance then sure, he probably has a positive record against some of those players but a quick look at Aligulac records demonstrates nicely that Taeja is not actually competing against Code S players very often and when he does, it doesn't go well for him on average. | ||
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Iodem
United States1173 Posts
On July 07 2014 06:07 Varroth wrote: Why do people keep using terms such as ''B-teamer'' and ''Taeja/MC/Jaedong/Bomber/San are not top koreans they would get demolished in code s'' You have Jaedong who beat Maru, Dear and other good players at the Global finals 7 ish months ago, and you've got Taeja who have won 10 premier titles sure not as ''prestigefull'' as a Code S win but saying they would get decimated in code s is just stupid. RorO and TY both considered at the time atleast top 10 of their race with TY perhaps even being considered top 3. RorO bombing out of the Ro32 and TY bombing out of Ro16 at Dreamhack Bucharest. On July 07 2014 06:19 LightSpectra wrote: this enduring myth that Taeja's win rates are solely against Korean B-teamers and foreigners is preposterous to the max. He has a positive win ratio against something like 30 out of 32 of the players in last season's Code S. The reason why he hasn't won any WCSs yet is because SC2 is so volatile. It only takes one scrappy series of build order losses to get eliminated, or one groggy day where you don't get enough sleep to make game-losing blunders. And that's not a criticism of the game, I mean even in BW, Flash was once knocked out of the OSL at the peak of his skill by Kal and Hyuk. SC2 and BW aren't games where good intellectual preparation is all you need to win. Doesn't it seem a bit convenient that Taeja only has that 'one groggy day' during long-running tournaments, and seldom at weekend tourneys? I think some players are just better at weekend tournaments, and some are better at long-running tournaments where you have several days in advance to plan out your games. KeSPA players are definitely better at long-running tournaments, and most have burned out in weekend tourneys. They're not common in Korea, and few kespa players have even competed outside of Korea. So I'd argue that it really comes down to how to practice. The KeSPA practice regimen is based around studying an opponent and preparing a strategy for a specific opponent and a specific map(s). As someone else mentioned, Taeja mostly practices via ladder, and weekend tournaments are a lot more like ladder(playing with lots and lots of unpredictable opponents) than long-running tournaments(where you're capable of really getting to know your opponent days in advance), so that's why he does so well. I think it's a bad idea to write it off as Taeja stomping weak "foreigner and low-tier Korean" opponents- weekend tourneys are simply his specialty, and it's what he trains for. Likewise, KeSPA players don't train for random opponents, they train for particular players and maps, so that's what they're good at. Some like sOs, solar, and herO are just plain good enough to be able to do it(or who knows, maybe those three players practice on ladder a lot more than the rest of their teammates?). tl;dr If taeja played in the GSL he'd probably get stomped, but if he played those same KeSPA opponents in a weekend tournament, he'd probably stomp them. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Any other WCS region I could care less about :'( | ||
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Arceus
Vietnam8333 Posts
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Thrillz
4313 Posts
On July 07 2014 06:07 Varroth wrote: Why do people keep using terms such as ''B-teamer'' and ''Taeja/MC/Jaedong/Bomber/San are not top koreans they would get demolished in code s'' You have Jaedong who beat Maru, Dear and other good players at the Global finals 7 ish months ago, and you've got Taeja who have won 10 premier titles sure not as ''prestigefull'' as a Code S win but saying they would get decimated in code s is just stupid. RorO and TY both considered at the time atleast top 10 of their race with TY perhaps even being considered top 3. RorO bombing out of the Ro32 and TY bombing out of Ro16 at Dreamhack Bucharest. lol RorO and TY have done little in individual leagues for awhile now. TY actually have never done anything in individual leagues. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16126 Posts
On July 07 2014 06:53 TotalBiscuit wrote: In what tournament is he playing 30 out of the 32 Code S players? I'm really curious. In the last 3 months, the only Code S players he has played against are Innovation and Symbol (Symbol isn't even in Code S anymore btw, he got 1-4ed out of his group in the RO32). He lost twice to Symbol and traded series 1-1 with Innovation. To find wins against actual Code S players you need to go back even further than that to Katowice where he beat Life, but lost to sOs. He got 4-0ed by Ragnarok in the King of Iron in March... I'm still trawling back to 2013 in order to find him actually beating Code S players (which was mostly Life and a BO3 against sOs at Dreamhack Winter 2013). If you want to count the last few years of performance then sure, he probably has a positive record against some of those players but a quick look at Aligulac records demonstrates nicely that Taeja is not actually competing against Code S players very often and when he does, it doesn't go well for him on average. For anyone else this wouldn't be a criticism but Taeja is heralded as one of the best Terrans in the world, and when he has that kind of praise behind him these kinds of criticisms are warranted. He just does not compete against other GSL quality pros enough and he's good enough that he should. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On July 07 2014 07:44 Vindicare605 wrote: For anyone else this wouldn't be a criticism but Taeja is heralded as one of the best Terrans in the world, and when he has that kind of praise behind him these kinds of criticisms are warranted. He just does not compete against other GSL quality pros enough and he's good enough that he should. It's not so much a criticism of Taeja as it is of the people that claim he is a tip-top Code S class Terran when there isn't really any recent evidence to support it. He obviously CAN be that quality, I mean he was back when he played Code S but that was a year ago. I would love to see him compete regularly against Code-S quality players. | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On July 07 2014 06:07 Varroth wrote: Why do people keep using terms such as ''B-teamer'' and ''Taeja/MC/Jaedong/Bomber/San are not top koreans they would get demolished in code s'' You have Jaedong who beat Maru, Dear and other good players at the Global finals 7 ish months ago, and you've got Taeja who have won 10 premier titles sure not as ''prestigefull'' as a Code S win but saying they would get decimated in code s is just stupid. RorO and TY both considered at the time atleast top 10 of their race with TY perhaps even being considered top 3. RorO bombing out of the Ro32 and TY bombing out of Ro16 at Dreamhack Bucharest. 7months ago... that´s a long time. Right now, I don´t see any player in the other WCS regions competing at highisch Code S level. Yeah Taeja could get through Code A with a good draw. Yeah he might go through Ro32 with a good draw. But I doubt he would go a lot further. And results like this here just cement this point. He never won a tournament with a lot of high tier Code S representation. His MLG wins, his Dreamhack wins, his HSC wins. These are all very good results. But they all have one thing in common: low representation of high calibre code S players at that time. The fact that he never made a code S final is one thing. But he never even made it to a final at a weekend tournament with a lot of (high) code S players in it. He seems pretty content with making money at easier tournaments, so I doubt this is a problem for him. But pls don´t call him best terran in the world or something along those lines. I can´t stand this anymore  | ||
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Musicus
Germany23580 Posts
On July 07 2014 07:54 TotalBiscuit wrote: It's not so much a criticism of Taeja as it is of the people that claim he is a tip-top Code S class Terran when there isn't really any recent evidence to support it. He obviously CAN be that quality, I mean he was back when he played Code S but that was a year ago. I would love to see him compete regularly against Code-S quality players. Wouldn't something like "Code S Challenge" be a nice idea for a showmatch series, where the best players from foreign torunaments compete in bo7/9 against current Code S players  ?. Taeja/Polt/Stardust/Jaedong etc. vs a Code S player like once a month, I would watch that so hard. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On July 07 2014 08:08 Musicus wrote: Wouldn't something like "Code S Challenge" be a nice idea for a showmatch series, where the best players from foreign torunaments compete in bo7/9 against current Code S players ?. Taeja/Polt/Stardust/Jaedong etc. vs a Code S player like once a month, I would watch that so hard.Isn't that the WCS Finals? :D | ||
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Waise
3165 Posts
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