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On June 11 2014 03:08 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 02:52 Zealously wrote:On June 11 2014 02:38 Big J wrote:
of course not. A thousand reasons against it. Feel free to share. -) it's under the WCS season, changing the way how to give points is unfair -) it's under the proleague season, no team can join currently. -) it's under the proleague season, its unfair towards anybody who does not get the WCS points from proleague, since they cannot miraculously play 50proleague matches in the next month to get even with the current topdogs -) players cannot join individually, so - unlike the rest of the WCS system - it isn't fair towards players with smaller teams or no team -) it's a team league where the players who play (and therefore have a chance to do well) are picked by their coaches. There is no open bracket qualification that makes it possible to play for a player of a team when his coach chose another -) it's a team league, it's impossible to determine who is the best individually. Win percentage in that format would rate 1-0 players over 20-10. Most wins rates 10-50 over 9-0 and so on... ...
its so ez for players with no team to travel around the world and stay in hotels
On June 11 2014 03:07 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 03:02 Requiem- wrote:On June 10 2014 04:27 caznitch wrote:
Would support this for sure. That said I'd support anything to get Flash to Blizzcon, including a rule that states, "Flash is guaranteed a spot in Blizzcon despite performance" +1 ---------- i dont think giving to proleague but to gsl, + fixing the game so Terrans will have someone representation from korea would be nice  . the only Terran from korea in WCS is going to be Maru right? Depends, Innovation isn't that far away from top 16 either, if he can get a good season 3 and maybe a few other placements, he is not out of it either.
i hope :D
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On June 11 2014 03:13 Requiem- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 03:08 Big J wrote:On June 11 2014 02:52 Zealously wrote:On June 11 2014 02:38 Big J wrote:
of course not. A thousand reasons against it. Feel free to share. -) it's under the WCS season, changing the way how to give points is unfair -) it's under the proleague season, no team can join currently. -) it's under the proleague season, its unfair towards anybody who does not get the WCS points from proleague, since they cannot miraculously play 50proleague matches in the next month to get even with the current topdogs -) players cannot join individually, so - unlike the rest of the WCS system - it isn't fair towards players with smaller teams or no team -) it's a team league where the players who play (and therefore have a chance to do well) are picked by their coaches. There is no open bracket qualification that makes it possible to play for a player of a team when his coach chose another -) it's a team league, it's impossible to determine who is the best individually. Win percentage in that format would rate 1-0 players over 20-10. Most wins rates 10-50 over 9-0 and so on... ... its so ez for players with no team to travel around the world and stay in hotels
Grubby, to give an example of an independent player.
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On June 11 2014 03:19 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 03:13 Requiem- wrote:On June 11 2014 03:08 Big J wrote:On June 11 2014 02:52 Zealously wrote:On June 11 2014 02:38 Big J wrote:
of course not. A thousand reasons against it. Feel free to share. -) it's under the WCS season, changing the way how to give points is unfair -) it's under the proleague season, no team can join currently. -) it's under the proleague season, its unfair towards anybody who does not get the WCS points from proleague, since they cannot miraculously play 50proleague matches in the next month to get even with the current topdogs -) players cannot join individually, so - unlike the rest of the WCS system - it isn't fair towards players with smaller teams or no team -) it's a team league where the players who play (and therefore have a chance to do well) are picked by their coaches. There is no open bracket qualification that makes it possible to play for a player of a team when his coach chose another -) it's a team league, it's impossible to determine who is the best individually. Win percentage in that format would rate 1-0 players over 20-10. Most wins rates 10-50 over 9-0 and so on... ... its so ez for players with no team to travel around the world and stay in hotels Grubby, to give an example of an independent player.
or Arthur and Oz in WCS AM Season 1.
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The issue that becomes apparent when you demand more points for the proleague players is that essentially you want to credit skill above all else. You want the best to go to Blizzcon. Thats a prefectly sound argument:
Skill however can be very subjective. The only real way of measuring skill we have is by placement in tournaments. If you argue for more WCS points for tournaments with a "stronger" lineup - as GSL for example - you essentially claim that you can decide what skill is.
Futhermore most WCS point tournaments are in Europe. It is therefore more accessible to European players. The 25% open qualifiers (which includes flights for top placements) are designed assuming that if you as a player cannot claim those spots in the online qualifiers, you have little chance for blizzcon anyways.
Kespa players prioritise Proleague. It is the most essential competition for them. I do not think you can reasonably argue for more WCS points for those people who have deliberately chosen to prioritise other comittments than WCS. You can say that Blizzcon should feature the best and the best only. But then we are back at my first point. You claim for yourself that you can decide what skill is.
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Honestly I don't think anything outside of WCS should give points, but since they are handing them out all over to promote outside tournaments I don't see why not throwing a little towards Proleague's best preforming players as well.
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because WCS points are only granted to tournaments which allow for qualifiers, this is not the case in proleague. Also its a league - not a tournament.
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I think we all understand that many people want the best players to represent the Blizzcon. However, the number one issue with awarding Proleague players with WCS points is that the point selection is very subjective. What is the criteria which will be used to determine who gets what points? Are we going by the number of wins? Winning percentage? Appearances? Player marketability? Fan base? Recent winning streak? What is it? In order for players to rack up wins in Proleague, he has to, first, appear on the line up. But, that is not up to the player to decide. So, now this idea is a potential problem for coaches and team management. Without a proper systemic analysis of the implication of integrating league matches into the WCS system, we are going to be left with one heck of a mess on our hands.
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United States97277 Posts
I would rather just see more opportunities made available to the players that don't get to travel outside of the Korea like the GSL Global Tournament that just happened and the one with the proleague players that is happening in a bit.
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Korea (South)169 Posts
On June 11 2014 02:04 StarcraftMan wrote:
No, WCS points should not be given to Proleague. What about ATC then? What about other team leagues? You see, this creates a mess.
The problem is, Proleague teams don't prioritize outside tournaments. That's not the fault of WCS. That's the fault of Proleague teams.
It is possible for Proleague teams to allow more players to attend foreign events. Look at Stork and HSC. It just depends on whether they want to make the effort.
However, Blizzard could give more weighting to GSL and OSL because the skill level is higher in GSL and OSL. So players that do well in GSL and OSL can accumulate more points. This is similar to the World Cup giving more spots to European teams because European teams play at a higher skill level.
It's funny when people try and compare the level of Proleague to other team leagues in the world.
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On June 11 2014 08:31 Shellshock wrote:
I would rather just see more opportunities made available to the players that don't get to travel outside of the Korea like the GSL Global Tournament that just happened and the one with the proleague players that is happening in a bit.
ya a Dreamhack/IEM Seoul would be awesome. Drawback is time zone difference so most people will have to watch vods. -__-
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
There have been some pretty good suggestions in here as to pros and cons, so I find it hard to come down hard on either side of that particular discussion. It just feels wrong somehow that guys like Soulkey could conceivably miss out on Blizzcon dagnabbit!
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Imo prestigious team league tournaments should also be given credits for, and tiered accordingly. Like Proleague can be top tier 1, ATC being tier 2, etc etc, But then giving points to only those high-performing players can cause teams to start sending out top players only to help them gain WCS points, so what about giving points to all the players in the team, according to the ranking of the team? This way teams will continue to try hard to win (instead of trying to get their players points), those less represented players in the team can also have chance in WCS system,
Also, if they want to do this they will probably need a new tier system for teamleagues, and they would have to probably implement this next year as it is too late to make such a big change.
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GSL isn't enough for Kespa players who don't get sent to foreign tourneys to gather wcs points? Here's the solution
+ Show Spoiler +
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On June 11 2014 09:51 Chuddinater wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 02:04 StarcraftMan wrote:
No, WCS points should not be given to Proleague. What about ATC then? What about other team leagues? You see, this creates a mess.
The problem is, Proleague teams don't prioritize outside tournaments. That's not the fault of WCS. That's the fault of Proleague teams.
It is possible for Proleague teams to allow more players to attend foreign events. Look at Stork and HSC. It just depends on whether they want to make the effort.
However, Blizzard could give more weighting to GSL and OSL because the skill level is higher in GSL and OSL. So players that do well in GSL and OSL can accumulate more points. This is similar to the World Cup giving more spots to European teams because European teams play at a higher skill level. It's funny when people try and compare the level of Proleague to other team leagues in the world.
It's funny when you talk about something that isn't WCS as if it is WCS. WCS isn't a "top 16 skilled players in the world" tournament, it's a "best from around the world" tournament.
As if it hasn't been botched enough, non-Korean's need what advantages they currently have, whereas Koreans don't need more advantages.
If ProLeague gets WCS points, then all team leagues should get points.
But, team leagues shouldn't get points... That adds in too many different aspects, as well as resolvable issues as to who gets how many points. It'll never be fair, and it'll never make sense.
What about all the great players that don't have a team? This wouldn't only be giving certain, specific players advantages over others, but it would enforce a disadvantage towards other players that are currently doing just fine.
This was a fun idea to throw around, but it can't actually go through and be fair/make sense.
We just need more tournaments, like the ones that actually happened and the ones that are going to happen.
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Korea (South)169 Posts
On June 11 2014 13:48 Shinta) wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 09:51 Chuddinater wrote:On June 11 2014 02:04 StarcraftMan wrote:
No, WCS points should not be given to Proleague. What about ATC then? What about other team leagues? You see, this creates a mess.
The problem is, Proleague teams don't prioritize outside tournaments. That's not the fault of WCS. That's the fault of Proleague teams.
It is possible for Proleague teams to allow more players to attend foreign events. Look at Stork and HSC. It just depends on whether they want to make the effort.
However, Blizzard could give more weighting to GSL and OSL because the skill level is higher in GSL and OSL. So players that do well in GSL and OSL can accumulate more points. This is similar to the World Cup giving more spots to European teams because European teams play at a higher skill level. It's funny when people try and compare the level of Proleague to other team leagues in the world. It's funny when you talk about something that isn't WCS as if it is WCS. WCS isn't a "top 16 skilled players in the world" tournament, it's a "best from around the world" tournament. As if it hasn't been botched enough, non-Korean's need what advantages they currently have, whereas Koreans don't need more advantages. If ProLeague gets WCS points, then all team leagues should get points. But, team leagues shouldn't get points... That adds in too many different aspects, as well as resolvable issues as to who gets how many points. It'll never be fair, and it'll never make sense. What about all the great players that don't have a team? This wouldn't only be giving certain, specific players advantages over others, but it would enforce a disadvantage towards other players that are currently doing just fine. This was a fun idea to throw around, but it can't actually go through and be fair/make sense. We just need more tournaments, like the ones that actually happened and the ones that are going to happen.
I never mentioned proleague and WCS in my post. Just thought it was funny that people try comparing the level of Proleague to other team leagues. It's like comparing your mom's cooking to a Michelin star restaurant.
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Where does this myth come from that PL players choose proleague over individual competition? They signed contracts to teams and those make the decisions. PL is the main concern of the PL-sponsors, hence the players have to concentrate on that competition, no because they believe it´s supposed to be the purest competition where they can test their might in mortal combat. It´s a day-job, and they have rules, that´s all.
And concerning the WCS points, I wouldn´t give any to pro-league performance, though I wouldn´t oppose it either, if it stays significantly lower than points given out by WCS series and other individual tournaments. The reason is:
WCS is and open competition, where anybody can qualify and work their way up to Blizzcon.
Proleague is a closed competition, where only the eight Kespa teams compete against each other.
It´s against the spirit of an open tournament to give points to some private party, even if it´s attended by star-players. There are possibilities for everyone to aquire WCS points. If some players can´t because the teams don´t let them, it is their problem, much like lack of money, illness, visa-issues, whatever. Blizzard shouldn´t give preferential treatment to anybody, so it can stay a fair competition.
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While I don't think this solution makes much sense, the underlying problem it's designed to address seems real. Last year, there were three seasons of WCS and eight non-WCS events that gave out WCS points. This year, there are still three seasons of WCS, but now we have 18 outside events. To break it down more precisely:
2013: Three seasons of WCS Premier: 10,000 points per tournament, times three regions, times three seasons, which adds 90000 points. Challenger League adds 6600 points on the year for Korea and 6000 each for WCS EU and NA, which gives a total of 102600 points through the WCS system. There were six "tier 1" non-WCS events, which gave out 3600 points each and two tier 2 events, which gave out 1200 each. When you add these together you get 24000, which means more than 4/5 of all points came from WCS events.
2014: Three seasons of WCS premier, but with slightly more points awarded for Premier League and fewer for challenger. (10500*3*3)+(1200*3)+(800*2*3)=102900. For non-WCS events, you have two "new tier 1" events that give out 7000 points each, 11 "old tier 1" events that give out 4000 each, and five tier 3 tournaments that give out 1800 each. This adds up to 67000, which means that around 3/5 all of points are coming from WCS events.
(there are probably some careless errors here and there, but I *think* the gist is correct.
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On June 11 2014 14:41 Chuddinater wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 13:48 Shinta) wrote:On June 11 2014 09:51 Chuddinater wrote:On June 11 2014 02:04 StarcraftMan wrote:
No, WCS points should not be given to Proleague. What about ATC then? What about other team leagues? You see, this creates a mess.
The problem is, Proleague teams don't prioritize outside tournaments. That's not the fault of WCS. That's the fault of Proleague teams.
It is possible for Proleague teams to allow more players to attend foreign events. Look at Stork and HSC. It just depends on whether they want to make the effort.
However, Blizzard could give more weighting to GSL and OSL because the skill level is higher in GSL and OSL. So players that do well in GSL and OSL can accumulate more points. This is similar to the World Cup giving more spots to European teams because European teams play at a higher skill level. It's funny when people try and compare the level of Proleague to other team leagues in the world. It's funny when you talk about something that isn't WCS as if it is WCS. WCS isn't a "top 16 skilled players in the world" tournament, it's a "best from around the world" tournament. As if it hasn't been botched enough, non-Korean's need what advantages they currently have, whereas Koreans don't need more advantages. If ProLeague gets WCS points, then all team leagues should get points. But, team leagues shouldn't get points... That adds in too many different aspects, as well as resolvable issues as to who gets how many points. It'll never be fair, and it'll never make sense. What about all the great players that don't have a team? This wouldn't only be giving certain, specific players advantages over others, but it would enforce a disadvantage towards other players that are currently doing just fine. This was a fun idea to throw around, but it can't actually go through and be fair/make sense. We just need more tournaments, like the ones that actually happened and the ones that are going to happen. I never mentioned proleague and WCS in my post. Just thought it was funny that people try comparing the level of Proleague to other team leagues. It's like comparing your mom's cooking to a Michelin star restaurant.
And comparing and contrasting those two are very easy to do. Nobody should say that ATC is as highly skilled as ProLeague, but comparing those two should be done. Just because ProLeague is the best doesn't mean that others suck and are unworthy of recognition.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
I think they missed a trick by removing season finals, those were some great tournaments and enabled Kr based players to guarantee a place at the Blizzcon extravaganza. Did have problems with parachuting in players who had 1/2 deep runs I suppose?
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No, I think the point system is fine BUT you must give more points to WCS Korea.
If you give more points to WCS Korea and go deeper (for example, give more points for even reaching Code S Round of 32 I think WCS Korea should be worth at least twice as much as WCS EU and NA.
Then... the other foreign tournaments would be a way to balance out the point difference, and top players would not feel like leaving Korea due to point system.
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EPT
