Due to Proleague commitments, we rarely get to see the amazing talent of the kespa teams compete outside of Korea. It is a sacrifice they have to make to be able to participate in the premier team league in starcraft 2. However, as things stand, they are being punished in the WCS system.
If you have a look at the current WCS Standings, it becomes clear that players on kespa teams very rarely get any points outside of the GSL.
The proleague players in the top 16, Zest, Life, herO, sOs, soO and Rain have together amassed 7 appearances in tournaments outside of Korea, out of which 3 belong to Life. Looking further down the list you get barely any attendance outside of Korea. So not only do they compete in by far the hardest WCS region, but they also have no real way of gathering points outside GSL.
I feel awarding WCS points for top performers in Proleague would level the playing field for the kespa koreans a lot, ensuring that the players at Blizzcon are actually the best in the world.
I also think that Proleague is incredibly important to the existence of Sc2, especially in Korea. Having players being handicaped in the global system because they play in proleague could result in the best players leaving the league. This is obviously not something we want.
Poll: WCS Points for Proleague?
Yes! :) (512)
69%
No! :( (206)
28%
Not sure :| (27)
4%
745 total votes
Your vote: WCS Points for Proleague?
(Vote): Yes! :) (Vote): No! :( (Vote): Not sure :|
On June 10 2014 03:23 Ribbon wrote: Rain, Soo, Sos, (CJ) Hero, and Zest are all currently Kespa players in the top 16 right now. Maru is close to top 16 as well.
KeSPA players shouldn't get sympathy points because they don't feel like playing in singles tournaments.
It's not that they don't feel like it, it's that they can't because they are in proleague teams. Also the fact that the best Terran in the world isn't in the top16 because he can't farm tournaments outside the GSL only supports the argument.
On June 10 2014 03:29 AWalker9 wrote: I think maybe one solution would be to give more points to the GSL that allows for Kespa players to build up more over the course of the year.
Here we go what I said last year. Stop this silly (WCS Points) dependence of tournaments outside WCS. ProLeague, DH, Redbull, HSC, etc dont need to give WCs points. Only within WCS, nothing else.
On June 10 2014 03:50 DifuntO wrote: No because it's like an invite only tournament(in a way),most players cannot participate which means it cannot give any WCS points.
the hypocrisy that consist to ignore the cost of going to a dh/IEM is pretty huge imo. You cannot stay it's totally free of access if you consider that it can cost more than 1k$ depending from where you live.
When Blizzard introduced the WCS 2013 system, they purposely gave other tournaments WCS points in order to make a larger, overarching story to events. I personally wouldn't agree that the WCS points do that all that much (aside from the very end of the season, IEM, for example) but I don't see them taking WCS points away from other events.
Even more than that though, I don't think they would ever (or should ever) add WCS points to proleague, or any other team league. Like someone else mentioned, it essentially is an invitational only tournament. I would much prefer that GSL perhaps be compensated more in terms of WCS points. I don't think anyone would argue they don't deserve it.
Would support this for sure. That said I'd support anything to get Flash to Blizzcon, including a rule that states, "Flash is guaranteed a spot in Blizzcon despite performance"
On June 10 2014 03:43 Dingodile wrote: Here we go what I said last year. Stop this silly (WCS Points) dependence of tournaments outside WCS. ProLeague, DH, Redbull, HSC, etc dont need to give WCs points. Only within WCS, nothing else.
This, much this.
Players whose teams have the money to fly them around the globe collect points way more easily. This leads to having people in Blizzcon who got his ticket because he could afford travelling to attend tournaments with easier competition and high rewards points wise.
Even worse is the case of invitational tournaments. Popular players get invited everywhere, hence they get more chances to collect the points, an unfair advantage over the others.
Edit: despite what I said above, I'd support OP's idea, to leverage the advantage the players in foreign teams have over the Proleague-commited ones.
No, the players don't even have a say in who gets to play. What about the b-teamers? WCS tournaments have to be open to everyone. Proleague is a closed system where the coaches decide who gets to play. I'd rather see WCS points gone from all the other tournaments like DH and IEM.
On June 10 2014 04:55 Musicus wrote: No, the players don't even have a say in who gets to play. What about the b-teamers? WCS tournaments have to be open to everyone. Proleague is a closed system where the coaches decide who gets to play. I'd rather see WCS points gone from all the other tournaments like DH and IEM.
the openess is a joke considering the costs involved and the strain travelling put on actual practice.
I really feel like they should be. WCS points should be a way to measure player skill and I really think there should be alternative ways to earn points. Hell, I would even say that players should be able to earn points from laddering (assuming it will be balanced out).
On June 10 2014 03:50 DifuntO wrote: No because it's like an invite only tournament(in a way),most players cannot participate which means it cannot give any WCS points.
the hypocrisy that consist to ignore the cost of going to a dh/IEM is pretty huge imo. You cannot stay it's totally free of access if you consider that it can cost more than 1k$ depending from where you live.
Cost is irrelevant.You can participate no matter where you live,there are no restrictions.If you can't go that's your problem.
If Koreans want to,they should host a tournament in Korea,open to everybody in other regions and i'm sure Blizz will give them the same amount of wcs points as DH/IEM.
On June 10 2014 03:50 DifuntO wrote: No because it's like an invite only tournament(in a way),most players cannot participate which means it cannot give any WCS points.
the hypocrisy that consist to ignore the cost of going to a dh/IEM is pretty huge imo. You cannot stay it's totally free of access if you consider that it can cost more than 1k$ depending from where you live.
Cost is irrelevant.You can participate no matter where you live,there are no restrictions.If you can't go that's your problem.
If Koreans want to,they should host a tournament in Korea,open to everybody in other regions and i'm sure Blizz will give them the same amount of wcs points as DH/IEM.
On June 10 2014 04:55 Musicus wrote: No, the players don't even have a say in who gets to play. What about the b-teamers? WCS tournaments have to be open to everyone. Proleague is a closed system where the coaches decide who gets to play. I'd rather see WCS points gone from all the other tournaments like DH and IEM.
the openess is a joke considering the costs involved and the strain travelling put on actual practice.
Yep I agree, but giving WCS points for Proleague is no solution imo. Restrict WCS points to WCS/GSL. I dislike how IEM/DH etc. have become qualifiers for Blizzcon anyway, they have their own championships.
The other solution would be more open tournaments on Korean soil, but that's unrealistic. There will at least be the one Kespa tournament later this year with the top2 from each region plus Proleague and open qualifiers I think.
On June 10 2014 05:12 digmouse wrote: KeSPA is sending top PL performers to foreign tournaments. They'll be fine.
On June 10 2014 03:23 Ribbon wrote: Rain, Soo, Sos, (CJ) Hero, and Zest are all currently Kespa players in the top 16 right now. Maru is close to top 16 as well.
KeSPA players shouldn't get sympathy points because they don't feel like playing in singles tournaments.
Um your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Why would the players that you mentioned NOT want to play in singles tournaments? LOL... It's advantageous to them because they're better than most of their competition = free money and fame. It's that they CAN'T compete due to tight rules with the team and proleague. Why do you think players like innovation left a korean team? It's to be able to play more singles tournaments.
On June 10 2014 03:23 Ribbon wrote: Rain, Soo, Sos, (CJ) Hero, and Zest are all currently Kespa players in the top 16 right now. Maru is close to top 16 as well.
KeSPA players shouldn't get sympathy points because they don't feel like playing in singles tournaments.
Um your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Why would the players that you mentioned NOT want to play in singles tournaments? LOL... It's advantageous to them because they're better than most of their competition = free money and fame. It's that they CAN'T compete due to tight rules with the team and proleague. Why do you think players like innovation left a korean team? It's to be able to play more singles tournaments.
or because his team disbanded due to the fact STX had financial problems? Rewriting history is a cool hobby tho.
Err lol. Maybe award some WCS points to Looping Louie too! Teamleauges are different. Stop mixing them with single performances. (Can I remind you Sirs how big the uproar was when it was revealed that WCS KR/EU/NA had different group-formats etc.)
Wouldn't that like completely miss the whole point of the WCS? The whole system is purportedly skewed towards non-Korean events so that SC2 doesn't end up being a Korea-only affair like BW. It is just because of the WCS design that we see so many good Koreans outside Korea and the scenes aren't completely disconected.
Also, so, SO many people who do good in PL fail hilariously in individual leagues and vice versa, it just doesn't make sense even when you don't include the outside-of-the-game politics.
As ProLeague is the most important and most regular league in SC2, they should get WCS points, yes. Not many, but some. There are so many (offline!!!) PL matches, it is almost impossible for the good players to visit all the events in Europe etc.
so you just wanna get sure it will be 16 koreans ? isnt that fair cause its a korean only tournament (since there are the korean teams in it) its like having a local teamleague in usa and use it ... nono i rly would dislike it and i am 100% sure it wont happen
On June 10 2014 06:15 Drake wrote: so you just wanna get sure it will be 16 koreans ? isnt that fair cause its a korean only tournament (since there are the korean teams in it) its like having a local teamleague in usa and use it ... nono i rly would dislike it and i am 100% sure it wont happen
I think most want the top 16 best sc2 players, and yes that would most likely mean almost 16 koreans. Honestly I give no fuck about nationality of a player, I want to watch the best.
I disagree. If a team wishes to participate seriously in proleague, and they do this by not allowing their players to go to foreign events, then that's the team's decision, KESPA koreans should not get special treatment solely because their team takes proleague more seriously than Blizzcon.
Also, There will be a taiwan tournament with wcs points, too, and a good prize money. Really, if kespa doesn't bother to play in this one, they really don't care A flight from korea to taiwan can't be that expensive
Of course, there's also the kespa tounament they will do later on
Weither they earned WCS points in proleague or in any individual tournaments, I just want to see the top of the top players playing at Blizzcon. Even if it has to be full koreans. I watch SCII for the show, not for cheering for a foreigner. But this is only my point and I perfectly understand that some people want to support the foreigners ^_^
I feel like they should have a bigger global teamleague system if they were to implement this, just to make sure that everyone has an equal opportunity to show that they were the most consistent player of 20XY.
On June 10 2014 04:27 caznitch wrote: Would support this for sure. That said I'd support anything to get Flash to Blizzcon, including a rule that states, "Flash is guaranteed a spot in Blizzcon despite performance"
No they shouldn't get points.... The best players in ProLeague are already getting a lot of WCS points and/or traveling around the world. We have Zest, Life, herO, sOs, soO and Rain in the top 16. Giving PL players points will turn WCS into a PL only tournament. We already have that, it's called GSL.
Just because Flash keeps losing terribly at GSL doesn't mean he should be given sympathy points.
The reason KeSPA players don't travel more is because they need to keep in shape and maintain/build up team league strategies. That's their job, and all of the other stuff are perks.
On June 10 2014 03:43 Dingodile wrote: Here we go what I said last year. Stop this silly (WCS Points) dependence of tournaments outside WCS. ProLeague, DH, Redbull, HSC, etc dont need to give WCs points. Only within WCS, nothing else.
well thats how you push every tournament out of the scene if you focus everything on WCS. If no tournament outside of the WCS system really matters, players wont travel there anymore, viewers wont watch it and tournament organizers pull out.
you get a situation like in League of Legends with LCS.
On June 10 2014 03:43 Dingodile wrote: Here we go what I said last year. Stop this silly (WCS Points) dependence of tournaments outside WCS. ProLeague, DH, Redbull, HSC, etc dont need to give WCs points. Only within WCS, nothing else.
well thats how you push every tournament out of the scene if you focus everything on WCS. If no tournament outside of the WCS system really matters, players wont travel there anymore, viewers wont watch it and tournament organizers pull out.
you get a situation like in League of Legends with LCS.
On June 10 2014 03:23 Ribbon wrote: Rain, Soo, Sos, (CJ) Hero, and Zest are all currently Kespa players in the top 16 right now. Maru is close to top 16 as well.
KeSPA players shouldn't get sympathy points because they don't feel like playing in singles tournaments.
Um your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Why would the players that you mentioned NOT want to play in singles tournaments? LOL... It's advantageous to them because they're better than most of their competition = free money and fame. It's that they CAN'T compete due to tight rules with the team and proleague. Why do you think players like innovation left a korean team? It's to be able to play more singles tournaments.
or because his team disbanded due to the fact STX had financial problems? Rewriting history is a cool hobby tho.
And that is why he end up with SKT1 like Soulkey and classic, or Jin air like sOs or IM like Trap ?
On June 10 2014 03:23 Ribbon wrote: Rain, Soo, Sos, (CJ) Hero, and Zest are all currently Kespa players in the top 16 right now. Maru is close to top 16 as well.
KeSPA players shouldn't get sympathy points because they don't feel like playing in singles tournaments.
Um your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Why would the players that you mentioned NOT want to play in singles tournaments? LOL... It's advantageous to them because they're better than most of their competition = free money and fame. It's that they CAN'T compete due to tight rules with the team and proleague. Why do you think players like innovation left a korean team? It's to be able to play more singles tournaments.
or because his team disbanded due to the fact STX had financial problems? Rewriting history is a cool hobby tho.
And that is why he end up with SKT1 like Soulkey and classic, or Jin air like sOs or IM like Trap ?
or teamless like hyvaa. He is still in korea so it wasn't just for the freebies, else he'd be raping the WCS Eu. Who knows what's the deal with acer in terms of salary and co.
I don't see why not. It's a tournament with a big prize pool.
On June 10 2014 03:50 DifuntO wrote: No because it's like an invite only tournament(in a way),most players cannot participate which means it cannot give any WCS points.
Tournament invites are already helping out the non-KeSPA Koreans so much that a few points from a KeSPA-only tournament seems only fair. Asus RoG and HSC are 80% invite only and they mosly invite non-KeSPA (Solar in RoG is the only exception this year). The invites are also going to the same players every time. HerO, for example, hasn't gone through qualifiers to play in a major tournament since IPL 5.
On June 10 2014 03:29 Ace Frehley wrote: Next they will want the same for ATC
If ATC had 10X the prize pool and was an offline tournament from the beginning, then I would support WCS points for ATC as well.
On June 10 2014 06:15 Drake wrote: so you just wanna get sure it will be 16 koreans ? isnt that fair cause its a korean only tournament (since there are the korean teams in it) its like having a local teamleague in usa and use it ... nono i rly would dislike it and i am 100% sure it wont happen
I think most want the top 16 best sc2 players, and yes that would most likely mean almost 16 koreans. Honestly I give no fuck about nationality of a player, I want to watch the best.
This pretty much. Why shouldn't PL players get points? Some of the highest level of play...
On June 10 2014 03:29 AWalker9 wrote: I think maybe one solution would be to give more points to the GSL that allows for Kespa players to build up more over the course of the year.
True, this is also a possible solution.
Aren't there going to be enough Koreans at Blizzcon anyways? Much like last year?
On June 10 2014 04:55 Musicus wrote: No, the players don't even have a say in who gets to play. What about the b-teamers? WCS tournaments have to be open to everyone. Proleague is a closed system where the coaches decide who gets to play. I'd rather see WCS points gone from all the other tournaments like DH and IEM.
Not to mention, not all players can even choose to be in PL. It just takes what is a distorted environment, because none of them will ever be perfect, and distorts it further and makes it harder for up and comers to break through.
While I do think these guys deserve WCS points both skill wise as well as competitive wise I'm not sure if this can work.
I assume we all think Proleague should be a competition where decisions by coaches are made that have the teams' best interest in mind. However what happens if a player who is underperforming for the past three months is really close to having enough points for the WCS Globan Finals and they decide to line him up in order to get some more WCS points? Do we want WCS points to have influence over who gets lined up based on their ranking instead of the merits of their skill?
I am not sure if this is a feasible idea. Does anyone have a solution for this problem?
On June 10 2014 23:11 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: While I do think these guys deserve WCS points both skill wise as well as competitive wise I'm not sure if this can work.
I assume we all think Proleague should be a competition where decisions by coaches are made that have the teams' best interest in mind. However what happens if a player who is underperforming for the past three months is really close to having enough points for the WCS Globan Finals and they decide to line him up in order to get some more WCS points? Do we want WCS points to have influence over who gets lined up based on their ranking instead of the merits of their skill?
I am not sure if this is a feasible idea. Does anyone have a solution for this problem?
The only remotely feasible thing to do would be to give points to the teams according to their performance, not to individual players. Then each player of the team who is a WCS finals contender would get a bonus added to his pool based on his team (with clear rules about changing teams). It would of course have to be a fairly small amount of points in order not to completely screw up the standings with people who haven't accomplished anything at all. (And me saying this doesn't change the fact that I am against giving any weight to PL at all, because I don't think it really correlates with individual player skill that much.)
The solution to non-WCS tournaments favoring players outside Korea is Korea having more individual events. The lack of tourneys in Korea has been a problem for a long time. The only event of any prestige one can participate in is Code B. More open events in Korea would give more points for top proleague stars and give more oppoturnities to the wealth of talent outside codes S and A.
No. PL is 100% invite only. If you award points for PL, you must award points for invitationals. If you award points for invitationals, players with high popularity have an edge over better players with lower popularity. If blizzcon attendance is based on popularity, the system is flawed. I think giving out higher points for WCS korea wouldn't be that bad, since the competition in there is still the best IMHO, but we can't start giving out points for an invite only teamleague.
This is pretty difficult to do imo. Fair vs Unfair arguments can be made for both sides. Same thing could be argued for ATC. Some players who play there also don't have a lot of points
Currently, I don't think WCS points reflect skill that well. Look at MC. MC is good, he's probably a top 10 protoss. But he sure as hell is not a top 16 player. And he is 3675. Same with Hyun. He has 3100. That is what a WCS AM/EU first place will do for you. So, it's clear that WCS points are not giving us the BEST players in the world. If people want it to be a better representation of skill, then huge changes need to be made to the system altogether. WCS Korea will always be the hardest and that means that it should have the most weight, but I think it's safe to say they won't do that.
Proleague obviously has the most # of top tier players, but it's a teamleague. PL matches are not the best representation of skill, as there are team-related strategies used. A coach might send out someone for a snipe or something. This doesn't make that player skilled and at all capable of winning something like Code S or WCS Finals. But even then, I think the PL matches are a better representation of skill than the B-class Korean domination of WCS AM/EU (AM more than EU). It's probably a better representation of skill than most foreign tournaments like HSC too.
It's just a matter of how you give PL points. If points were given per team win and placement in each round, then that might work, but that feels sort of weird because people who don't even play much in PL would still be getting points if their team won. If anything, I think the points awarded need to be very low, or else it will create a sort of strange weighting, I think.
I really doubt Blizzard will ever let a teamleague give WCS points.
On June 11 2014 01:43 Xoronius wrote: No. PL is 100% invite only. If you award points for PL, you must award points for invitationals. If you award points for invitationals, players with high popularity have an edge over better players with lower popularity. If blizzcon attendance is based on popularity, the system is flawed. I think giving out higher points for WCS korea wouldn't be that bad, since the competition in there is still the best IMHO, but we can't start giving out points for an invite only teamleague.
That argument is sort of bad, because HSC is like, 80% invites, and to a bunch of foreigners too. TB's invitational should give more WCS points than HSC, when comparing the player lineups. The qualified players didn't even make top 8. Armani and Stork were the only qualified players to even earn ANY WCS points (a whopping 125).
It´s clear, that KESPA players are very disadvantaged by the current WCS system. They HAVE to stay in Korea, because of pro league, so they have to compete in GSL, where Code A may even be harder to get through than Ro8 of WCS Premier League in NA or EU. Additionally they can´t afford to travel that much because of proleague. (I think a lot of Kespa could efford the travel money, but the schedule is the problem here). So Blizzcon has no chance to be the final battlefield of the best of the best. It will be just another international tournament with a huge prizepool.
ppl say that there's potential for shenanigans where coaches can line up certain players to get some points, but these said players would need to be able to win in the highly competitive, cut-throat environment of PL to begin with ... so it's not like the system can be gamed as easily as some people would think. PL teams aren't so dumb to jeopardize their play-off chances like that (or at least I hope they aren't).
If points would be awarded, which I'm in favor of, I think it should only go to the top 5-8 performers overall, which would require a serious investment on the team's part (and would require the player to actually be good enough to be sent out that often). If foreigners or Koreans abroad want to take part in this, they can easily form "alliances" with teams like Liquid and other teams have so far this season.
I think it's a bit humorous to note that poll has a decisive majority for yes, but in this thread most of the posts are dissenting opinions lol
The system was designed in a way that is supposed to insure that there is no disadvantage to being in the EU and NA and competing from there. The goal isn't so much as to find the top 16 players overall as to find the top players from each region and those players qualify for the grand final. If they were merely trying to find the top 16 players overall they would give 2 seeds to WCS EU 2 seeds to WCS NA and 12 seeds to WCS Korea and let them duke it out that way but that's not the goal.
No, WCS points should not be given to Proleague. What about ATC then? What about other team leagues? You see, this creates a mess.
The problem is, Proleague teams don't prioritize outside tournaments. That's not the fault of WCS. That's the fault of Proleague teams.
It is possible for Proleague teams to allow more players to attend foreign events. Look at Stork and HSC. It just depends on whether they want to make the effort.
However, Blizzard could give more weighting to GSL and OSL because the skill level is higher in GSL and OSL. So players that do well in GSL and OSL can accumulate more points. This is similar to the World Cup giving more spots to European teams because European teams play at a higher skill level.
On June 11 2014 01:43 Xoronius wrote: No. PL is 100% invite only. If you award points for PL, you must award points for invitationals. If you award points for invitationals, players with high popularity have an edge over better players with lower popularity. If blizzcon attendance is based on popularity, the system is flawed. I think giving out higher points for WCS korea wouldn't be that bad, since the competition in there is still the best IMHO, but we can't start giving out points for an invite only teamleague.
That argument is sort of bad, because HSC is like, 80% invites, and to a bunch of foreigners too. TB's invitational should give more WCS points than HSC, when comparing the player lineups. The qualified players didn't even make top 8. Armani and Stork were the only qualified players to even earn ANY WCS points (a whopping 125).
There is a 25%-qualifier quote for all tournaments giving out WCS points. HSC had 25% qualifiers. TB invitational didn't and PL doesn't either. The Shoutcraft Invitational LU can be considered better, but that is up to subjective thinking. Objectively you still have an online 10k invitational on one side and an offline 25k tourney with qualifiers on the other. Don't understand me wrong, I greatly appreciate, what TB and Sandisk did, but they never were contenders for WCS points with their system and I don't really think, that that was their priority either. The reason, Stork and Armani only got 125 points, is that they lost to "a bunch of foreigners", who then got more points than them, they had the possibility to leave with 750/500, but they didn't play good enough for that. It is not the systems fault, if PL players lose early.
I'm not too concerned about it being "invite only" as those "invited" are about 80% of the top SC2 players anyways. And that isn't definitely true as you can still get in (see StatePrime).
I think a system that rewards the top 3 or 5 most wins at the end of the season, or maybe top wins every round would be fine.
On June 11 2014 02:04 StarcraftMan wrote: [...] This is similar to the World Cup giving more spots to European teams because European teams play at a higher skill level.
Handball disagrees. In Top32, 31,5 are from EU. Everyone says that European Cup is much stronger than World Cup, but World Cup is more important.
I think there is an important distinction to make between the best players and the best performing players. You can be however good you want, but if you never perform when and where it matters, there is no reason to invite you to the grand finale. Was Naniwa among the top 16 players in the world last season? No, certainly not, but he had earned his place by performing where it mattered, rather than simply being good but never doing anything with that skill. It's tough to be a KeSPA player and not get to play a lot of tournaments, but I don't think catering to those players is the right way to go. As a player, you have to prioritize. It isn't fun to miss out on one thing or the other, but we can't expect Blizzard to cater to every tournament organizer and organization that does not want to play by their rules.
On June 11 2014 02:31 warthog wrote: outside events shouldnt give wcs points, it makes the rich kids get undeserved points. MC top1 wcs points LOL enough said
With your idea and MC example means Jaedong is already out for Blizzcon.
I mean, it's clearly an issue of priorities more than anything. Proleague players don't get WCS points because they prioritize proleague over WCS, ergo they should live with the consequences. To them, proleague means a lot more than WCS will ever mean, and a team league title will mean more than an individual. How else to explain Bisu's consistent failure to do well in starleagues but ability to carry SKT year after year (have you heard anybody else go 15-0 with three straight all kills, or 63-15 in a single proleague season?)? It's all priorities; there's no saying that top PL players would even GO to WCS finals if they were invited if they also had PL finals down the line.
No, because *things said 100 times already in thread*.
Would (still) just prefer to increase the points than can be earned in WCS Korea. With a bit of a bigger increase to the bottom than the top percentage wise.
On June 11 2014 02:30 Zealously wrote: I think there is an important distinction to make between the best players and the best performing players. You can be however good you want, but if you never perform when and where it matters, there is no reason to invite you to the grand finale. Was Naniwa among the top 16 players in the world last season? No, certainly not, but he had earned his place by performing where it mattered, rather than simply being good but never doing anything with that skill.
I don't think you can say that this easily, I mean, his results didn't come from cannon rushing everygame and getting lucky. From the guys placing behind him, I could only rate Rain and maybe soO as definitly better them him over the year. Life and trap were also probably better towards the end, but Life was slumping a bit in the early year, and Trap was only on Nanis level for a very short time. On the other hand, people slightly above him (aLive, duckdeok, Mvp) weren't definitly better than him either.
On June 10 2014 04:27 caznitch wrote: Would support this for sure. That said I'd support anything to get Flash to Blizzcon, including a rule that states, "Flash is guaranteed a spot in Blizzcon despite performance"
+1 ---------- i dont think giving to proleague but to gsl, + fixing the game so Terrans will have someone representation from korea would be nice . the only Terran from korea in WCS is going to be Maru right?
i think the only fix to this is to give more points to KR players in GSL, or less on tournaments outside KR.
On June 10 2014 04:27 caznitch wrote: Would support this for sure. That said I'd support anything to get Flash to Blizzcon, including a rule that states, "Flash is guaranteed a spot in Blizzcon despite performance"
+1 ---------- i dont think giving to proleague but to gsl, + fixing the game so Terrans will have someone representation from korea would be nice . the only Terran from korea in WCS is going to be Maru right?
Depends, Innovation isn't that far away from top 16 either, if he can get a good season 3 and maybe a few other placements, he is not out of it either.
On June 11 2014 02:38 Big J wrote: of course not. A thousand reasons against it.
Feel free to share.
-) it's under the WCS season, changing the way how to give points is unfair -) it's under the proleague season, no team can join currently. -) it's under the proleague season, its unfair towards anybody who does not get the WCS points from proleague, since they cannot miraculously play 50proleague matches in the next month to get even with the current topdogs -) players cannot join individually, so - unlike the rest of the WCS system - it isn't fair towards players with smaller teams or no team -) it's a team league where the players who play (and therefore have a chance to do well) are picked by their coaches. There is no open bracket qualification that makes it possible to play for a player of a team when his coach chose another -) it's a team league, it's impossible to determine who is the best individually. Win percentage in that format would rate 1-0 players over 20-10. Most wins rates 10-50 over 9-0 and so on... ...
On June 11 2014 02:38 Big J wrote: of course not. A thousand reasons against it.
Feel free to share.
-) it's under the WCS season, changing the way how to give points is unfair -) it's under the proleague season, no team can join currently. -) it's under the proleague season, its unfair towards anybody who does not get the WCS points from proleague, since they cannot miraculously play 50proleague matches in the next month to get even with the current topdogs -) players cannot join individually, so - unlike the rest of the WCS system - it isn't fair towards players with smaller teams or no team -) it's a team league where the players who play (and therefore have a chance to do well) are picked by their coaches. There is no open bracket qualification that makes it possible to play for a player of a team when his coach chose another -) it's a team league, it's impossible to determine who is the best individually. Win percentage in that format would rate 1-0 players over 20-10. Most wins rates 10-50 over 9-0 and so on... ...
its so ez for players with no team to travel around the world and stay in hotels
On June 10 2014 04:27 caznitch wrote: Would support this for sure. That said I'd support anything to get Flash to Blizzcon, including a rule that states, "Flash is guaranteed a spot in Blizzcon despite performance"
+1 ---------- i dont think giving to proleague but to gsl, + fixing the game so Terrans will have someone representation from korea would be nice . the only Terran from korea in WCS is going to be Maru right?
Depends, Innovation isn't that far away from top 16 either, if he can get a good season 3 and maybe a few other placements, he is not out of it either.
On June 11 2014 02:38 Big J wrote: of course not. A thousand reasons against it.
Feel free to share.
-) it's under the WCS season, changing the way how to give points is unfair -) it's under the proleague season, no team can join currently. -) it's under the proleague season, its unfair towards anybody who does not get the WCS points from proleague, since they cannot miraculously play 50proleague matches in the next month to get even with the current topdogs -) players cannot join individually, so - unlike the rest of the WCS system - it isn't fair towards players with smaller teams or no team -) it's a team league where the players who play (and therefore have a chance to do well) are picked by their coaches. There is no open bracket qualification that makes it possible to play for a player of a team when his coach chose another -) it's a team league, it's impossible to determine who is the best individually. Win percentage in that format would rate 1-0 players over 20-10. Most wins rates 10-50 over 9-0 and so on... ...
its so ez for players with no team to travel around the world and stay in hotels
Grubby, to give an example of an independent player.
On June 11 2014 02:38 Big J wrote: of course not. A thousand reasons against it.
Feel free to share.
-) it's under the WCS season, changing the way how to give points is unfair -) it's under the proleague season, no team can join currently. -) it's under the proleague season, its unfair towards anybody who does not get the WCS points from proleague, since they cannot miraculously play 50proleague matches in the next month to get even with the current topdogs -) players cannot join individually, so - unlike the rest of the WCS system - it isn't fair towards players with smaller teams or no team -) it's a team league where the players who play (and therefore have a chance to do well) are picked by their coaches. There is no open bracket qualification that makes it possible to play for a player of a team when his coach chose another -) it's a team league, it's impossible to determine who is the best individually. Win percentage in that format would rate 1-0 players over 20-10. Most wins rates 10-50 over 9-0 and so on... ...
its so ez for players with no team to travel around the world and stay in hotels
Grubby, to give an example of an independent player.
The issue that becomes apparent when you demand more points for the proleague players is that essentially you want to credit skill above all else. You want the best to go to Blizzcon. Thats a prefectly sound argument:
Skill however can be very subjective. The only real way of measuring skill we have is by placement in tournaments. If you argue for more WCS points for tournaments with a "stronger" lineup - as GSL for example - you essentially claim that you can decide what skill is.
Futhermore most WCS point tournaments are in Europe. It is therefore more accessible to European players. The 25% open qualifiers (which includes flights for top placements) are designed assuming that if you as a player cannot claim those spots in the online qualifiers, you have little chance for blizzcon anyways.
Kespa players prioritise Proleague. It is the most essential competition for them. I do not think you can reasonably argue for more WCS points for those people who have deliberately chosen to prioritise other comittments than WCS. You can say that Blizzcon should feature the best and the best only. But then we are back at my first point. You claim for yourself that you can decide what skill is.
Honestly I don't think anything outside of WCS should give points, but since they are handing them out all over to promote outside tournaments I don't see why not throwing a little towards Proleague's best preforming players as well.
because WCS points are only granted to tournaments which allow for qualifiers, this is not the case in proleague. Also its a league - not a tournament.
I think we all understand that many people want the best players to represent the Blizzcon. However, the number one issue with awarding Proleague players with WCS points is that the point selection is very subjective. What is the criteria which will be used to determine who gets what points? Are we going by the number of wins? Winning percentage? Appearances? Player marketability? Fan base? Recent winning streak? What is it? In order for players to rack up wins in Proleague, he has to, first, appear on the line up. But, that is not up to the player to decide. So, now this idea is a potential problem for coaches and team management. Without a proper systemic analysis of the implication of integrating league matches into the WCS system, we are going to be left with one heck of a mess on our hands.
I would rather just see more opportunities made available to the players that don't get to travel outside of the Korea like the GSL Global Tournament that just happened and the one with the proleague players that is happening in a bit.
On June 11 2014 02:04 StarcraftMan wrote: No, WCS points should not be given to Proleague. What about ATC then? What about other team leagues? You see, this creates a mess.
The problem is, Proleague teams don't prioritize outside tournaments. That's not the fault of WCS. That's the fault of Proleague teams.
It is possible for Proleague teams to allow more players to attend foreign events. Look at Stork and HSC. It just depends on whether they want to make the effort.
However, Blizzard could give more weighting to GSL and OSL because the skill level is higher in GSL and OSL. So players that do well in GSL and OSL can accumulate more points. This is similar to the World Cup giving more spots to European teams because European teams play at a higher skill level.
It's funny when people try and compare the level of Proleague to other team leagues in the world.
On June 11 2014 08:31 Shellshock wrote: I would rather just see more opportunities made available to the players that don't get to travel outside of the Korea like the GSL Global Tournament that just happened and the one with the proleague players that is happening in a bit.
ya a Dreamhack/IEM Seoul would be awesome. Drawback is time zone difference so most people will have to watch vods. -__-
There have been some pretty good suggestions in here as to pros and cons, so I find it hard to come down hard on either side of that particular discussion. It just feels wrong somehow that guys like Soulkey could conceivably miss out on Blizzcon dagnabbit!
Imo prestigious team league tournaments should also be given credits for, and tiered accordingly. Like Proleague can be top tier 1, ATC being tier 2, etc etc, But then giving points to only those high-performing players can cause teams to start sending out top players only to help them gain WCS points, so what about giving points to all the players in the team, according to the ranking of the team? This way teams will continue to try hard to win (instead of trying to get their players points), those less represented players in the team can also have chance in WCS system, Also, if they want to do this they will probably need a new tier system for teamleagues, and they would have to probably implement this next year as it is too late to make such a big change.
On June 11 2014 02:04 StarcraftMan wrote: No, WCS points should not be given to Proleague. What about ATC then? What about other team leagues? You see, this creates a mess.
The problem is, Proleague teams don't prioritize outside tournaments. That's not the fault of WCS. That's the fault of Proleague teams.
It is possible for Proleague teams to allow more players to attend foreign events. Look at Stork and HSC. It just depends on whether they want to make the effort.
However, Blizzard could give more weighting to GSL and OSL because the skill level is higher in GSL and OSL. So players that do well in GSL and OSL can accumulate more points. This is similar to the World Cup giving more spots to European teams because European teams play at a higher skill level.
It's funny when people try and compare the level of Proleague to other team leagues in the world.
It's funny when you talk about something that isn't WCS as if it is WCS. WCS isn't a "top 16 skilled players in the world" tournament, it's a "best from around the world" tournament.
As if it hasn't been botched enough, non-Korean's need what advantages they currently have, whereas Koreans don't need more advantages. If ProLeague gets WCS points, then all team leagues should get points.
But, team leagues shouldn't get points... That adds in too many different aspects, as well as resolvable issues as to who gets how many points. It'll never be fair, and it'll never make sense.
What about all the great players that don't have a team? This wouldn't only be giving certain, specific players advantages over others, but it would enforce a disadvantage towards other players that are currently doing just fine.
This was a fun idea to throw around, but it can't actually go through and be fair/make sense. We just need more tournaments, like the ones that actually happened and the ones that are going to happen.
On June 11 2014 02:04 StarcraftMan wrote: No, WCS points should not be given to Proleague. What about ATC then? What about other team leagues? You see, this creates a mess.
The problem is, Proleague teams don't prioritize outside tournaments. That's not the fault of WCS. That's the fault of Proleague teams.
It is possible for Proleague teams to allow more players to attend foreign events. Look at Stork and HSC. It just depends on whether they want to make the effort.
However, Blizzard could give more weighting to GSL and OSL because the skill level is higher in GSL and OSL. So players that do well in GSL and OSL can accumulate more points. This is similar to the World Cup giving more spots to European teams because European teams play at a higher skill level.
It's funny when people try and compare the level of Proleague to other team leagues in the world.
It's funny when you talk about something that isn't WCS as if it is WCS. WCS isn't a "top 16 skilled players in the world" tournament, it's a "best from around the world" tournament.
As if it hasn't been botched enough, non-Korean's need what advantages they currently have, whereas Koreans don't need more advantages. If ProLeague gets WCS points, then all team leagues should get points.
But, team leagues shouldn't get points... That adds in too many different aspects, as well as resolvable issues as to who gets how many points. It'll never be fair, and it'll never make sense.
What about all the great players that don't have a team? This wouldn't only be giving certain, specific players advantages over others, but it would enforce a disadvantage towards other players that are currently doing just fine.
This was a fun idea to throw around, but it can't actually go through and be fair/make sense. We just need more tournaments, like the ones that actually happened and the ones that are going to happen.
I never mentioned proleague and WCS in my post. Just thought it was funny that people try comparing the level of Proleague to other team leagues. It's like comparing your mom's cooking to a Michelin star restaurant.
Where does this myth come from that PL players choose proleague over individual competition? They signed contracts to teams and those make the decisions. PL is the main concern of the PL-sponsors, hence the players have to concentrate on that competition, no because they believe it´s supposed to be the purest competition where they can test their might in mortal combat. It´s a day-job, and they have rules, that´s all.
And concerning the WCS points, I wouldn´t give any to pro-league performance, though I wouldn´t oppose it either, if it stays significantly lower than points given out by WCS series and other individual tournaments. The reason is:
WCS is and open competition, where anybody can qualify and work their way up to Blizzcon. Proleague is a closed competition, where only the eight Kespa teams compete against each other.
It´s against the spirit of an open tournament to give points to some private party, even if it´s attended by star-players. There are possibilities for everyone to aquire WCS points. If some players can´t because the teams don´t let them, it is their problem, much like lack of money, illness, visa-issues, whatever. Blizzard shouldn´t give preferential treatment to anybody, so it can stay a fair competition.
While I don't think this solution makes much sense, the underlying problem it's designed to address seems real. Last year, there were three seasons of WCS and eight non-WCS events that gave out WCS points. This year, there are still three seasons of WCS, but now we have 18 outside events. To break it down more precisely:
2013: Three seasons of WCS Premier: 10,000 points per tournament, times three regions, times three seasons, which adds 90000 points. Challenger League adds 6600 points on the year for Korea and 6000 each for WCS EU and NA, which gives a total of 102600 points through the WCS system. There were six "tier 1" non-WCS events, which gave out 3600 points each and two tier 2 events, which gave out 1200 each. When you add these together you get 24000, which means more than 4/5 of all points came from WCS events.
2014: Three seasons of WCS premier, but with slightly more points awarded for Premier League and fewer for challenger. (10500*3*3)+(1200*3)+(800*2*3)=102900. For non-WCS events, you have two "new tier 1" events that give out 7000 points each, 11 "old tier 1" events that give out 4000 each, and five tier 3 tournaments that give out 1800 each. This adds up to 67000, which means that around 3/5 all of points are coming from WCS events.
(there are probably some careless errors here and there, but I *think* the gist is correct.
On June 11 2014 02:04 StarcraftMan wrote: No, WCS points should not be given to Proleague. What about ATC then? What about other team leagues? You see, this creates a mess.
The problem is, Proleague teams don't prioritize outside tournaments. That's not the fault of WCS. That's the fault of Proleague teams.
It is possible for Proleague teams to allow more players to attend foreign events. Look at Stork and HSC. It just depends on whether they want to make the effort.
However, Blizzard could give more weighting to GSL and OSL because the skill level is higher in GSL and OSL. So players that do well in GSL and OSL can accumulate more points. This is similar to the World Cup giving more spots to European teams because European teams play at a higher skill level.
It's funny when people try and compare the level of Proleague to other team leagues in the world.
It's funny when you talk about something that isn't WCS as if it is WCS. WCS isn't a "top 16 skilled players in the world" tournament, it's a "best from around the world" tournament.
As if it hasn't been botched enough, non-Korean's need what advantages they currently have, whereas Koreans don't need more advantages. If ProLeague gets WCS points, then all team leagues should get points.
But, team leagues shouldn't get points... That adds in too many different aspects, as well as resolvable issues as to who gets how many points. It'll never be fair, and it'll never make sense.
What about all the great players that don't have a team? This wouldn't only be giving certain, specific players advantages over others, but it would enforce a disadvantage towards other players that are currently doing just fine.
This was a fun idea to throw around, but it can't actually go through and be fair/make sense. We just need more tournaments, like the ones that actually happened and the ones that are going to happen.
I never mentioned proleague and WCS in my post. Just thought it was funny that people try comparing the level of Proleague to other team leagues. It's like comparing your mom's cooking to a Michelin star restaurant.
And comparing and contrasting those two are very easy to do. Nobody should say that ATC is as highly skilled as ProLeague, but comparing those two should be done. Just because ProLeague is the best doesn't mean that others suck and are unworthy of recognition.
I think they missed a trick by removing season finals, those were some great tournaments and enabled Kr based players to guarantee a place at the Blizzcon extravaganza. Did have problems with parachuting in players who had 1/2 deep runs I suppose?
No, I think the point system is fine BUT you must give more points to WCS Korea.
If you give more points to WCS Korea and go deeper (for example, give more points for even reaching Code S Round of 32 I think WCS Korea should be worth at least twice as much as WCS EU and NA.
Then... the other foreign tournaments would be a way to balance out the point difference, and top players would not feel like leaving Korea due to point system.
On August 26 2014 00:14 sm1995 wrote: Just lock the region thats the solutio
Not unless we want to completely fuck over Korea. If we region lock, which is something I support, other changes need to happen in tandem with that. Specifically, Korea needs to recieve the lion's share of the WCS points and money. If we are going to tell every Korean to go through the meat grinder that is GSL, it needs to be rewarded proportionally.
Imo, Ro8 GSL should award as many points as winning a smaller DH or Red Bull, it's at least as hard. Finalists should be directly seeded into the global final. Make Korea worthwhile, and Koreans will want to play there again.
i dont know about proleague, but i`d like to see at blizz con the best players, and no offense but Hyun, Mc and Stardust are great players and deserver to be at blizzcon, but saying that these 3 are the best in the world at the moment is just stupid. GSL should give as someone said already something like 750 points if you are top8, 1500 points top4, 2nd place around 2250 points and first place like 3000 points.. I wonder how would the standings look like.. probably soO would have 4000 something points..not 2000 something.
and yes, from somewhere.. the prizepool should me more for GSL, like it was before.. like 50k, 70k for the first place..
They need to give points out in different ways then just offline tournaments. Maybe they can make ladder relevant and give official accounts a certain number of points for being top 10 GM for an extended period of time. Or even promote some online tournaments.
Yes this should happen. It should be by map wins, at a very small amount, that way, a top performer can get like 1000 points or so with like 35 map wins. the points payout might need balancing out, but it should be implemented.
After reading through this thread, I find it interesting that there are more people for points for PL according to the poll, but those against it seem to post and voice their opinion more than the poll would suggest.
Nothing wrong with voicing your opinion of course. Just interesting thing to note.
On June 10 2014 03:25 nkr wrote: Also the fact that the best Terran in the world isn't in the top16 because he can't farm tournaments outside the GSL only supports the argument.
Taeja isn't on a proleague team.
But I do agree that they should get WCS points. We don't get to see enough of the Kespa vs non-Kespa Koreans.
Team leagues and individual leagues tend to have players performing differently, and so it's easy to make an argument that team league players don't get any reward towards an individual league tournament. However, it is not exactly a secret that the top Proleague players are amongst the most skilled players in the world, and I think the best solution is to use an "invite" system, where for example the top 4 proleague players are sent to blizzcon along with the top 12 from WCS Rankings.
WCS KR should be a lot more valuable than it is, and korea should get more WCS points with other tournaments, but absolutely not with proleague, since it's a closed tournament.
Its an awful idea. Appearances in proleague are controlled by the teams and can be exploited due to that. They might choose not to send B-teamers in Proleague to prove themselves due to the need for their A-teamers to collect WCS points. Additionally WCS was always meant as an individual event. Proleague deserves to be a self contained event. Additionally Proleague is a completely locked event, so players that are on non-KeSPA teams or teamless players couldn't participate at all. Sure the point disparity due to KeSPA players not travelling is a problem, but giving points to Proleague is a terrible solution.
I don't like it. Instead, the Kespa teams should really work on sending more players to international tournaments. I would rather have an open scene, where the best players fly around the world to participate in tournaments, instead of locking themselves up in their region and staying to themselves.
On June 10 2014 03:29 AWalker9 wrote: I think maybe one solution would be to give more points to the GSL that allows for Kespa players to build up more over the course of the year.
I also think this would be a far better solution. Also, I'd push for non-wcs tournaments to start giving fewer points.
On June 10 2014 03:29 AWalker9 wrote: I think maybe one solution would be to give more points to the GSL that allows for Kespa players to build up more over the course of the year.
I also think this would be a far better solution. Also, I'd push for non-wcs tournaments to start giving fewer points.
First priority has to be getting rid of WCS points for invites. That makes a farce of any competitive integrity of WCS.
Well since they may open proleague to everyone one reasoning against it would drop. But it will still deny what people want to get out of this. If PL gets them there is no way to deny other teamleagues those points and boom even more WCS points oversea. Especially since it gets easier to attract teams for a teamleague if WCS points are for grabs, so we might see the birth of a few more oversea.
Can't really understand why people want to support Kespa anyway if they want to see the best of the best. They lock themself of and prevent exchange between them and the rest of the world. For me the game evolves a bit slower since Kespa took over Korea. So I am really against supporting an organization that holds back the evolution of the game. Especially because Kespa vs non Kespa looks like current TvT ~.~ . "Who whats that play ? ooops I am dead."
On August 26 2014 02:16 FeyFey wrote: Well since they may open proleague to everyone one reasoning against it would drop. But it will still deny what people want to get out of this. If PL gets them there is no way to deny other teamleagues those points and boom even more WCS points oversea. Especially since it gets easier to attract teams for a teamleague if WCS points are for grabs, so we might see the birth of a few more oversea.
Can't really understand why people want to support Kespa anyway if they want to see the best of the best. They lock themself of and prevent exchange between them and the rest of the world. For me the game evolves a bit slower since Kespa took over Korea. So I am really against supporting an organization that holds back the evolution of the game. Especially because Kespa vs non Kespa looks like current TvT ~.~ . "Who whats that play ? ooops I am dead."
WTF? Kespa players have pushed and evolved the game a shit ton, the game would look totally different without them. In fact without the Kespa players Maru would probably be a bonjwa and everyone would be whining about how OP Terran is.
If so, then.. will we ever see a foreigner at Blizzcon? At anyrare, definitely would remove the future chances more to have opportunities to see foreigners or even more than one at a Blizzcon.
Problem is most likely solved if we would have ~2 weekend tournaments in a year in Korea... OSL Spring and Autmn, everyone can attend. Foreigners (except some) won't attend it because of obvious reasons.
Kespa does not care about individual tournaments outside of Korea, why should Blizzard do it? Kespa could do more Cups ( like the upcoming Kespa Cup ) or partner up with IEM and get a IEM Seoul. But hey, Intel is a enemy of Samsung, so why get them to Korea? Kespa could reorganize the ProLeague, having it from Jen. to Okt. with breaks between the "Seasons" and talk with Dreamhack, IEM and R.B. about having their tournaments in these breaks.
After giving free points for the invite only Team League SPL, we should next give points to INnoVation cause of his show skills in the ATC ( and ATC is at least not invite only ) and then start giving points for Zotacs, Go4s and other weeklys cause bullshit.
And for the Invites: Tournaments cannot afford tickets for the participating players, at least not for all. Lets take the critizesd HSC: They just cannot pay for all players travels, if they would have 32 quali spots and no invites, 25/32 qualifiers would just say "ah no sorry, no money for flight". Qualifies would be so usless in these tournaments, because large amount of quallified players would just not attend even they have the spot. Thinking of Maru last year, being quallified but did not attend, thinking of the HSC NA Quali this year: Polt and Violet got the spot, both did not attend. These tournaments have to invite large part of the roaster not because they think "fuck quallifier, we want MC and Jaedong" but because MC and Jaedong travel there at their own costs.
yeah, why has the whole world adjust to proleague? they carried over a team league from the BW days, in the BW days proleague was the only and best thing, nothing happen outside of korea. not anymore, its still a good tournament, but there are a million more good out there, there is alot happening outside of korea.
kespa never intended to change proleague so the players can also play other tournaments, or even that tournament series can come to korea.
so why even supporting that and make it even easier for kespa to not adjust to the rest of the world, in giving them extra points? so they can stay in the stoneage and jail their players forever?
I love proleague and it gave me some of my best sc2 moments this year, but I just don't see how the PL format would fit the WCS "spirit" : how would you allocate the points? how would this be fair when you consider that only 4 players in each team are given a spot every week? would it be fair to give a wcs point jackpot to people like life or TL.Hero that have been given a seat in the competition? why give a bunch of WCS point to kespa palyers only? and so on...
Really, if Flash had wanted to go to blizzcon then he would have started to focus on GSL more instead of being eliminated so early in seasons 1 and 2...
And in the end what does KESPA want? it's their move to send their players to foreign tournaments to earn WCS points. And if they wanted to be represented in WCS grandfinals that's what they would have done in the first place.
So even if as a fan it would be better to see all the best players in grandfinals, we just have to wait for Kespa to decide it's good to go there and then they'll make sure their best players earn enough WCS points before the end of the year... hopefully in 2015....
Am I the only one who thinks WCS system is perfect as it is now?
On August 26 2014 05:52 Gwavajuice wrote: I love proleague and it gave me some of my best sc2 moments this year, but I just don't see how the PL format would fit the WCS "spirit" : how would you allocate the points? how would this be fair when you consider that only 4 players in each team are given a spot every week? would it be fair to give a wcs point jackpot to people like life or TL.Hero that have been given a seat in the competition? why give a bunch of WCS point to kespa palyers only? and so on...
Really, if Flash had wanted to go to blizzcon then he would have started to focus on GSL more instead of being eliminated so early in seasons 1 and 2...
And in the end what does KESPA want? it's their move to send their players to foreign tournaments to earn WCS points. And if they wanted to be represented in WCS grandfinals that's what they would have done in the first place.
So even if as a fan it would be better to see all the best players in grandfinals, we just have to wait for Kespa to decide it's good to go there and then they'll make sure their best players earn enough WCS points before the end of the year... hopefully in 2015....
i get that some people here are sad that their favourite players cant come to blizzcon, but its no solution to just give them points while other players work their asses of and play 15 tournaments a year...
in football its the same
spain league is maybe harder than the english league, though that doesnt mean they get some sort of bonus for the championsleague ..
and here its the same, you cant just give korea more points cause they have at the moment the strongest league.
On August 26 2014 05:40 SatedSC2 wrote: Would make SC2 more Korea-centric.
I don't want that. I want the global scene to develop.
WCS points being more evenly spread around the world is better for global development of the game.
So no thanks.
This game's entire scene can be described as Korean-centric. It's been shown that if you spread out the prize pool across the regions other Koreans will go to those regions and win those tournaments e.g. Polt, StarDust, MC, Bomber
On August 26 2014 05:52 Gwavajuice wrote: I love proleague and it gave me some of my best sc2 moments this year, but I just don't see how the PL format would fit the WCS "spirit" : how would you allocate the points? how would this be fair when you consider that only 4 players in each team are given a spot every week? would it be fair to give a wcs point jackpot to people like life or TL.Hero that have been given a seat in the competition? why give a bunch of WCS point to kespa palyers only? and so on...
Really, if Flash had wanted to go to blizzcon then he would have started to focus on GSL more instead of being eliminated so early in seasons 1 and 2...
And in the end what does KESPA want? it's their move to send their players to foreign tournaments to earn WCS points. And if they wanted to be represented in WCS grandfinals that's what they would have done in the first place.
So even if as a fan it would be better to see all the best players in grandfinals, we just have to wait for Kespa to decide it's good to go there and then they'll make sure their best players earn enough WCS points before the end of the year... hopefully in 2015....
it doesnt help when some guys like MC/Hyun can cakewalk the AM/EU qualifiers and Kespa players going through GSL level qualifiers for one spot. it doesnt help when taeja/JD gets free"wild card" invitation when Kespa players have to fight for their chances. WCS is flawed like hell. I think it's better for blizzard just PICK their 16 players for the blizzcons, why bother using the wcs points?
On August 26 2014 06:24 phil.ipp wrote:spain league is maybe harder than the english league, though that doesnt mean they get some sort of bonus for the championsleague ...
On August 26 2014 05:52 Gwavajuice wrote: I love proleague and it gave me some of my best sc2 moments this year, but I just don't see how the PL format would fit the WCS "spirit" : how would you allocate the points? how would this be fair when you consider that only 4 players in each team are given a spot every week? would it be fair to give a wcs point jackpot to people like life or TL.Hero that have been given a seat in the competition? why give a bunch of WCS point to kespa palyers only? and so on...
Really, if Flash had wanted to go to blizzcon then he would have started to focus on GSL more instead of being eliminated so early in seasons 1 and 2...
And in the end what does KESPA want? it's their move to send their players to foreign tournaments to earn WCS points. And if they wanted to be represented in WCS grandfinals that's what they would have done in the first place.
So even if as a fan it would be better to see all the best players in grandfinals, we just have to wait for Kespa to decide it's good to go there and then they'll make sure their best players earn enough WCS points before the end of the year... hopefully in 2015....
I think it's better for blizzard just PICK their 16 players for the blizzcons, why bother using the wcs points?
I don't think that's really possible for Starcraft. Who would you include in the top 16? No matter what you do your going to get shit from people saying that player X has won more tournaments in this year, but player Y won more difficult ones.
On August 26 2014 04:26 Clonester wrote: Kespa does not care about individual tournaments outside of Korea, why should Blizzard do it? Kespa could do more Cups ( like the upcoming Kespa Cup ) or partner up with IEM and get a IEM Seoul. But hey, Intel is a enemy of Samsung, so why get them to Korea? Kespa could reorganize the ProLeague, having it from Jen. to Okt. with breaks between the "Seasons" and talk with Dreamhack, IEM and R.B. about having their tournaments in these breaks.
After giving free points for the invite only Team League SPL, we should next give points to INnoVation cause of his show skills in the ATC ( and ATC is at least not invite only ) and then start giving points for Zotacs, Go4s and other weeklys cause bullshit.
And for the Invites: Tournaments cannot afford tickets for the participating players, at least not for all. Lets take the critizesd HSC: They just cannot pay for all players travels, if they would have 32 quali spots and no invites, 25/32 qualifiers would just say "ah no sorry, no money for flight". Qualifies would be so usless in these tournaments, because large amount of quallified players would just not attend even they have the spot. Thinking of Maru last year, being quallified but did not attend, thinking of the HSC NA Quali this year: Polt and Violet got the spot, both did not attend. These tournaments have to invite large part of the roaster not because they think "fuck quallifier, we want MC and Jaedong" but because MC and Jaedong travel there at their own costs.
I agreed with pretty much all of it. If we really want to give more points to Kespa koreans, the only solution is to have a second main tournament in Korea, like MSL was on the side of OSL.
On August 26 2014 06:24 phil.ipp wrote:spain league is maybe harder than the english league, though that doesnt mean they get some sort of bonus for the championsleague ...
On August 26 2014 05:52 Gwavajuice wrote: I love proleague and it gave me some of my best sc2 moments this year, but I just don't see how the PL format would fit the WCS "spirit" : how would you allocate the points? how would this be fair when you consider that only 4 players in each team are given a spot every week? would it be fair to give a wcs point jackpot to people like life or TL.Hero that have been given a seat in the competition? why give a bunch of WCS point to kespa palyers only? and so on...
Really, if Flash had wanted to go to blizzcon then he would have started to focus on GSL more instead of being eliminated so early in seasons 1 and 2...
And in the end what does KESPA want? it's their move to send their players to foreign tournaments to earn WCS points. And if they wanted to be represented in WCS grandfinals that's what they would have done in the first place.
So even if as a fan it would be better to see all the best players in grandfinals, we just have to wait for Kespa to decide it's good to go there and then they'll make sure their best players earn enough WCS points before the end of the year... hopefully in 2015....
I think it's better for blizzard just PICK their 16 players for the blizzcons, why bother using the wcs points?
I don't think that's really possible for Starcraft. Who would you include in the top 16? No matter what you do your going to get shit from people saying that player X has won more tournaments in this year, but player Y won more difficult ones.
I can come up with a better blizzcon final plan in a minute. How about a World Cup like event where each region is given a certain spots for the final event. It's based on nationality but not residence. E.g. [32 spots in total], Koreans - 22 , Americans - 3, Europeans - 5 , Asians- 2. And each region is league format, running for a certain time. This is much much better than the WCS points system. Higher finisher in regional league will have higher seeding which will be useful in the final event. Guys like MC, Hyun , Pigbaby needs to prove themselves their worthy in the regional league first.
On August 26 2014 06:24 phil.ipp wrote:spain league is maybe harder than the english league, though that doesnt mean they get some sort of bonus for the championsleague ...
On August 26 2014 05:52 Gwavajuice wrote: I love proleague and it gave me some of my best sc2 moments this year, but I just don't see how the PL format would fit the WCS "spirit" : how would you allocate the points? how would this be fair when you consider that only 4 players in each team are given a spot every week? would it be fair to give a wcs point jackpot to people like life or TL.Hero that have been given a seat in the competition? why give a bunch of WCS point to kespa palyers only? and so on...
Really, if Flash had wanted to go to blizzcon then he would have started to focus on GSL more instead of being eliminated so early in seasons 1 and 2...
And in the end what does KESPA want? it's their move to send their players to foreign tournaments to earn WCS points. And if they wanted to be represented in WCS grandfinals that's what they would have done in the first place.
So even if as a fan it would be better to see all the best players in grandfinals, we just have to wait for Kespa to decide it's good to go there and then they'll make sure their best players earn enough WCS points before the end of the year... hopefully in 2015....
I think it's better for blizzard just PICK their 16 players for the blizzcons, why bother using the wcs points?
I don't think that's really possible for Starcraft. Who would you include in the top 16? No matter what you do your going to get shit from people saying that player X has won more tournaments in this year, but player Y won more difficult ones.
I can come up with a better blizzcon final plan in a minute. How about a World Cup like event where each region is given a certain spots for the final event. It's based on nationality but not residence. E.g. [32 spots in total], Koreans - 22 , Americans - 3, Europeans - 5 , Asians- 2. And each region is league format, running for a certain time. This is much much better than the WCS points system. Higher finisher in regional league will have higher seeding which will be useful in the final event. Guys like MC, Hyun , Pigbaby needs to prove themselves their worthy in the regional league first.
You think that's better?!? That's just a rehashed version of the 2012 WCS system. Apart from disenfranchising the Korean players who have moved to the other regions it also doesn't serve to fulfill any of the goals Blizzard set out (creating storyline, improving quality in regions etc).
On August 26 2014 06:24 phil.ipp wrote:spain league is maybe harder than the english league, though that doesnt mean they get some sort of bonus for the championsleague ...
On August 26 2014 05:52 Gwavajuice wrote: I love proleague and it gave me some of my best sc2 moments this year, but I just don't see how the PL format would fit the WCS "spirit" : how would you allocate the points? how would this be fair when you consider that only 4 players in each team are given a spot every week? would it be fair to give a wcs point jackpot to people like life or TL.Hero that have been given a seat in the competition? why give a bunch of WCS point to kespa palyers only? and so on...
Really, if Flash had wanted to go to blizzcon then he would have started to focus on GSL more instead of being eliminated so early in seasons 1 and 2...
And in the end what does KESPA want? it's their move to send their players to foreign tournaments to earn WCS points. And if they wanted to be represented in WCS grandfinals that's what they would have done in the first place.
So even if as a fan it would be better to see all the best players in grandfinals, we just have to wait for Kespa to decide it's good to go there and then they'll make sure their best players earn enough WCS points before the end of the year... hopefully in 2015....
I think it's better for blizzard just PICK their 16 players for the blizzcons, why bother using the wcs points?
I don't think that's really possible for Starcraft. Who would you include in the top 16? No matter what you do your going to get shit from people saying that player X has won more tournaments in this year, but player Y won more difficult ones.
I can come up with a better blizzcon final plan in a minute. How about a World Cup like event where each region is given a certain spots for the final event. It's based on nationality but not residence. E.g. [32 spots in total], Koreans - 22 , Americans - 3, Europeans - 5 , Asians- 2. And each region is league format, running for a certain time. This is much much better than the WCS points system. Higher finisher in regional league will have higher seeding which will be useful in the final event. Guys like MC, Hyun , Pigbaby needs to prove themselves their worthy in the regional league first.
You think that's better?!? That's just a rehashed version of the 2012 WCS system. Apart from disenfranchising the Korean players who have moved to the other regions it also doesn't serve to fulfill any of the goals Blizzard set out (creating storyline, improving quality in regions etc).
I am pretty sure it's totally Blizzard's intention to implement a system to have Bunny over Flash and JaeDong over Soo for a ranking..... I always thought blizzcon is about to sending the best players to fight for the ultimate championship. Apparently I am wrong.
you all think its so important to determine the BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD !
in fact in many sports it never gets fairly decided who is the best in the world, just look at all the olympic sports who cares who is the best player, thats not really entertaining if its decided between 16 kespa koreans
i want to see a clash of continents of playstyles of champions in their region
i want to see stardust and polt against kespa
not the fucking 12 iteration of flash against random kespa protoss, which we see every week in proleague to the same degree i dont want to see stardust rek the 10th random european terran
blizzcon is and was never be about finding the BEST PLAYER in the world, who cares
i want entertainment, last time i looked the whole professional scene was build up on viewer numbers ..
so everyone who isnt satisfied with 6-7 kespa players in an 16 player tournament, go watch proleague or gsl
EDIT: and yeah bunny in the tournament creates much more entertainment, than flash. deal with it.
On August 26 2014 06:24 phil.ipp wrote:spain league is maybe harder than the english league, though that doesnt mean they get some sort of bonus for the championsleague ...
On August 26 2014 05:52 Gwavajuice wrote: I love proleague and it gave me some of my best sc2 moments this year, but I just don't see how the PL format would fit the WCS "spirit" : how would you allocate the points? how would this be fair when you consider that only 4 players in each team are given a spot every week? would it be fair to give a wcs point jackpot to people like life or TL.Hero that have been given a seat in the competition? why give a bunch of WCS point to kespa palyers only? and so on...
Really, if Flash had wanted to go to blizzcon then he would have started to focus on GSL more instead of being eliminated so early in seasons 1 and 2...
And in the end what does KESPA want? it's their move to send their players to foreign tournaments to earn WCS points. And if they wanted to be represented in WCS grandfinals that's what they would have done in the first place.
So even if as a fan it would be better to see all the best players in grandfinals, we just have to wait for Kespa to decide it's good to go there and then they'll make sure their best players earn enough WCS points before the end of the year... hopefully in 2015....
I think it's better for blizzard just PICK their 16 players for the blizzcons, why bother using the wcs points?
I don't think that's really possible for Starcraft. Who would you include in the top 16? No matter what you do your going to get shit from people saying that player X has won more tournaments in this year, but player Y won more difficult ones.
I can come up with a better blizzcon final plan in a minute. How about a World Cup like event where each region is given a certain spots for the final event. It's based on nationality but not residence. E.g. [32 spots in total], Koreans - 22 , Americans - 3, Europeans - 5 , Asians- 2. And each region is league format, running for a certain time. This is much much better than the WCS points system. Higher finisher in regional league will have higher seeding which will be useful in the final event. Guys like MC, Hyun , Pigbaby needs to prove themselves their worthy in the regional league first.
You think that's better?!? That's just a rehashed version of the 2012 WCS system. Apart from disenfranchising the Korean players who have moved to the other regions it also doesn't serve to fulfill any of the goals Blizzard set out (creating storyline, improving quality in regions etc).
I am pretty sure it's totally Blizzard's intention to implement a system to have Bunny over Flash and JaeDong over Soo for a ranking..... I always thought blizzcon is about to sending the best players to fight for the ultimate championship. Apparently I am wrong.
Sure Blizzard's current system is heavily warped by an invite heavy tournament scene, and the lack of participation from KeSPA players outside of the GSL, but that doesn't make your format anything close to a good idea.
Also Flash is a particularly unfortunate example to choose. Sure, he currently is one of the best players in the world and will likely do well in the GSL and KeSPA cup, however his results in the WCS circuit this year have not shown it. He finished marooned in Code A twice. As things stand and barring exceptional performance in the aforementioned tournaments he doesn't deserve a spot at Blizzcon even in an equitable format.
On August 26 2014 07:44 phil.ipp wrote: EDIT:and yeah bunny in the tournament creates much more entertainment, than flash. deal with it.
I think that you would be shocked at how many share that same opinion, not hating on Bunny here but Flash is Flash.
On August 26 2014 08:01 BrassMonkey27 wrote: Pro league doesnt have open qualifiers so it should not award WCS points. End of story.
Even though it breaks the rules, it is proleague and I feel that it wouldn't be out of the question at all for them to be given an exception to the rule. It isn't just some random tournament. There's no doubt that proleague is tied with GSL in terms of the level of play.
With that in mind I think that the better solution would be to award more points for GSL. Although if points were to be awarded for proleague, I wouldn't really mind it all that much.
Although it is true that wathing 16 KesPa players fight it out to be named 'The Best', that really is what Proleague is for. To find out the best and most consistent team made up of the best players. Blizzcon is unique in the fact that players like Stardust and Jaedong (although ex-KesPa) are able to pit themselves and their unique play styles against the best of the best. Yes, FlaSh vs Rain would be epic, but isn't anyone curious as to how a player like MMA would play vs Rain or Stardust vs FlaSh?
i like the fact that sponsors can fund players to attend different tournaments. It helps sponsors get more exposure, and hence allow more funding for players.
btw, can someone make a neat comparison showing 'most win/highest win ratio players in SPL against those Kespa qualified for WCS? That way we can see if gsl seeding is fine as it is?
also, im not sure if it's still the case, but proleague is a qualifier of sorts; not sure about now, but u needed to 'qualify' in getting a pro-leage licence to play. And at least, getting onto the team themselves is a qualification hurdle hard enough
No, teamleagues shouldn't give wcs points directly
they indirectly can through seeds into tournaments (eg kespa cup, top 2 proleague go there)
I definitely think wcs can use tweaking, either in point adjustments or in seeding. A lot of wcs tournaments have heavy bias towards invites/seeds, and often times that is either popularity based/pure invitation or wcs point based (which biases to earlier-in-the-year performance)
personally, I think a system of like top 12 WCS points overall go to blizzcon, with a play-in of players 13-16 in overall WCS points and then the top 1 or 2 from each WCS region using exclusively the WCS seasons to determine (without overlap with other WCS)
so 12 + 4 (playin of 4 WCS + 6 "regioners"; probably groups of 5 where top 2 advance) [12 + 10 players; round robin groups can be played online for playin pre blizzcon]
or
12 WCS + 4 (playin of next 4 WCS + 1AM + 1EU + 1KR +1 other, probably like next highest based on WCS tier 1 events exclusively or a SEA qualifier) [12 + 8 players, can all be offline at blizzcon; should do MSL/GSL style groups of 4]
gives a playin chance for people that perform well exclusively in their region, disregarding all the biasing junk associated with non WCS AM/EU/KR tournaments (can't afford to travel/sponsors don't send to travel? KR too stacked? Good foreigner who can't quite get a major tourney win to get that big point boost needed to crack top 16?).
A long time ago I remember Mr Chae talking about giving foreigners seeds to GSL with analogy to world cup, that worse teams can get in due to regions. Non WCS tourneys and invites and seeding systems really bias those that have sponsors to fly them around or those that perform the best in season 1 of WCS region X [to get later invites]
Korea just needs more tournaments, period. Either that or more points for the GSL.
Look at the current WCS standings. Here are the Kespa players: 7. Zest 11. Life 12. Classic 13. Soo 14. SoS 16. herO
Half of them farmed the majority of their points from outside Korea. And with the exception of Zest (who is decently safe), they are all in danger of dropping out of the tournament entirely. There are only two KR players (Rain and Maru) from 17-24 so nobody else is close to qualifying.
It is easy to envision a scenario where all of the bubble players get knocked out and the GSL ends up with only 1-2 players seeded in Blizzcon. It's also fairly ridiculous that low seeds are all that they can get. Last year's line-up is more indicative of skill level. This year's Blizzcon could end up being a farce of a competition worthy of another elephant in the room article.
The Kespa cup needs to run 2-3 times a year to rectify the situation. Or maybe another GSL type tournament. We had OSL and MSL in the BW days. Awarding points for Proleague is not ideal. There are way better solutions out there. But it's a last resort that should be taken if there isn't as many points for Kespa players.
I think this discussion is pretty worthless. I thought there's something like "25% (don't know the number) of the players attending must qualify for the tournament to give out WCS points"? Don't see anyone qualifying for Proleague.
It would be nice if it was more and shorter seasons with, don't know, 16 teams and 50% of these teams had to qualify. Maybe this would even allow foreign teams to play in Proleague, which is unthinkable atm because of the long stay in Korea. Nobody could play in WCS EU and NA anymore if his team plays in PL.
If something like this happens, THEN they can THINK of giving out WCS points for PL.
It does seem like a sympathy thing. Being on a kespa team means you compete in proleague and you go where kespa sends you. You shouldn't be given free WCS points when you've made the choice to sign for a kespa team. If the players don't like it, then leave, join a foreign team, go to multiple events and compete in the WCS system.
WCS players can't play in proleague, and it just seems unfair to favour them like this.
That said, rather than something as vague as "top performers", round winners and overall winners could perhaps be rewarded with some points. That seems like a more clear incentive and reward.
Part of the intention of Blizzard is to have foreigners in major tournaments because that increases viewership. If you give WCS points to Proleague players it has the effect of guaranteeing a larger percentage of Koreans in the global WCS tournaments. So I'm not sure it's going to happen. And I can't blame Blizzard, because SC2 needs the viewership.
Not to mention that Proleague is closed off from foreigners so it's giving an advantage to the Koreans. If Kespa wants its players to attend the WCS global event, then the players need to travel to foreign tournaments.
I tink OP says the bad part of being in the Kespa team, where u get less opportunity into the Ultimate tourney, the blizzcon.
And there is alot very good players that plays for Kespa & Proleague but not giving equal opportunity to go to Blizzcon.
Leave and join foreign team is what Op is trying to address, because teamleague is important for Esport and if every good and ambitious player choose to join foreign team to have more opportunity into Blizzcon, Proleague will start to be lacking . .
Anyway I feel the WCS point system is elaborate, but not perfect. And to miss out proleague in the equation, which is one of the frontier , legendary league in Esport since many years? It feels out of place .
Anyway, I watch SC2 due to proleague . If Proleague didnt exist , It is bad for Esport overall. There have to be something to be included in WCS point or more seed opportunity or something . .
This has probably already been said but the back and forth discussions pro/con the position doesn't make any sense unless you first decide (or aruge about) what the value of Blizzcon is.
Do you want to see local heros (by which I mean naturalized Koreans that we're used to seeing in foreign tournaments) or do you want to see the best starcraft players the world has to offer? Once you decide on that then you can relook at WCS point for or against proleauge play.
WSC points for cooperate sponsored teams with no open qualification system? Why not just invite the players directly and cut out the dog and pony show?
On August 26 2014 10:16 andrewlt wrote: Korea just needs more tournaments, period. Either that or more points for the GSL.
Look at the current WCS standings. Here are the Kespa players: 7. Zest 11. Life 12. Classic 13. Soo 14. SoS 16. herO
Half of them farmed the majority of their points from outside Korea. And with the exception of Zest (who is decently safe), they are all in danger of dropping out of the tournament entirely. There are only two KR players (Rain and Maru) from 17-24 so nobody else is close to qualifying.
It is easy to envision a scenario where all of the bubble players get knocked out and the GSL ends up with only 1-2 players seeded in Blizzcon. It's also fairly ridiculous that low seeds are all that they can get. Last year's line-up is more indicative of skill level. This year's Blizzcon could end up being a farce of a competition worthy of another elephant in the room article.
The Kespa cup needs to run 2-3 times a year to rectify the situation. Or maybe another GSL type tournament. We had OSL and MSL in the BW days. Awarding points for Proleague is not ideal. There are way better solutions out there. But it's a last resort that should be taken if there isn't as many points for Kespa players.
Absolutely agreed. Adding points to Proleague is fraught with difficulties and huge problems outlined in this thread. Even if it could be achieved fairly which I do not think is possible, it would just be a band-aid solution to the problem that Proleague players don't play sufficiently in individual leagues to obtain points for qualification. The only real solution to that is to continue to develop the SC2 tournament scene in Korea. Nothing else will do.
On June 10 2014 03:16 nkr wrote: Due to Proleague commitments, we rarely get to see the amazing talent of the kespa teams compete outside of Korea. It is a sacrifice they have to make to be able to participate in the premier team league in starcraft 2. However, as things stand, they are being punished in the WCS system.
If you have a look at the current WCS Standings, it becomes clear that players on kespa teams very rarely get any points outside of the GSL.
The proleague players in the top 16, Zest, Life, herO, sOs, soO and Rain have together amassed 7 appearances in tournaments outside of Korea, out of which 3 belong to Life. Looking further down the list you get barely any attendance outside of Korea. So not only do they compete in by far the hardest WCS region, but they also have no real way of gathering points outside GSL.
I feel awarding WCS points for top performers in Proleague would level the playing field for the kespa koreans a lot, ensuring that the players at Blizzcon are actually the best in the world.
I also think that Proleague is incredibly important to the existence of Sc2, especially in Korea. Having players being handicaped in the global system because they play in proleague could result in the best players leaving the league. This is obviously not something we want.
Giving WCS points for proleague is a very bad idea, here is why: - team managers decide who plays and who not - no access for players that are not in a proleague team
Players that decide to travel around the world to play starcraft in the us and europe are taking the risk of lowering their practice standards and suffer from playing less against the korean elite but also against lower foreigners. The others who stay in korea take less risks and therefore the less rewards is quite right.
I can't get behind giving PL players WCS points. PL is it's own separate entity. the teams choose weather or not they want their players to go. the players choose if they want to be on a PL team. If players want to play in WCS and PL they need to structure that into their contracts with their PL teams. The best players in the world are probably going to have more bargaining power to do this. We can look to other sports for examples. In soccer (football) teams allow players to leave to compete in national team games. This is because most players structure that into their contracts and because the different leagues know that it promotes their league to show they have the best players on a world stage. We can all make a very strong case that PL players are some of the best in the world. However because they don't play the best outside of the PL you can't say for sure. It is up to PL to allow their best players to compete in the WCS. Not only would it grow the WCS it would grow the PL as it solidifies without a doubt how good their players are. It is up to the PL teams to allow for this, if they decide to not allow their players to travel you should not reward them.
EPT
. the only Terran from korea in WCS is going to be Maru right?
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