EPTWCS points for top Proleague performers? - Page 8
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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cpower
228 Posts
On August 26 2014 06:48 NexUmbra wrote: They do actually get a bonus. For example England gets four teams through whereas mine only gets one. I don't think that's really possible for Starcraft. Who would you include in the top 16? No matter what you do your going to get shit from people saying that player X has won more tournaments in this year, but player Y won more difficult ones. I can come up with a better blizzcon final plan in a minute. How about a World Cup like event where each region is given a certain spots for the final event. It's based on nationality but not residence. E.g. [32 spots in total], Koreans - 22 , Americans - 3, Europeans - 5 , Asians- 2. And each region is league format, running for a certain time. This is much much better than the WCS points system. Higher finisher in regional league will have higher seeding which will be useful in the final event. Guys like MC, Hyun , Pigbaby needs to prove themselves their worthy in the regional league first. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 26 2014 07:20 cpower wrote: I can come up with a better blizzcon final plan in a minute. How about a World Cup like event where each region is given a certain spots for the final event. It's based on nationality but not residence. E.g. [32 spots in total], Koreans - 22 , Americans - 3, Europeans - 5 , Asians- 2. And each region is league format, running for a certain time. This is much much better than the WCS points system. Higher finisher in regional league will have higher seeding which will be useful in the final event. Guys like MC, Hyun , Pigbaby needs to prove themselves their worthy in the regional league first. You think that's better?!? That's just a rehashed version of the 2012 WCS system. Apart from disenfranchising the Korean players who have moved to the other regions it also doesn't serve to fulfill any of the goals Blizzard set out (creating storyline, improving quality in regions etc). | ||
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cpower
228 Posts
On August 26 2014 07:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote: You think that's better?!? That's just a rehashed version of the 2012 WCS system. Apart from disenfranchising the Korean players who have moved to the other regions it also doesn't serve to fulfill any of the goals Blizzard set out (creating storyline, improving quality in regions etc). I am pretty sure it's totally Blizzard's intention to implement a system to have Bunny over Flash and JaeDong over Soo for a ranking..... I always thought blizzcon is about to sending the best players to fight for the ultimate championship. Apparently I am wrong. | ||
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phil.ipp
Austria1067 Posts
in fact in many sports it never gets fairly decided who is the best in the world, just look at all the olympic sports who cares who is the best player, thats not really entertaining if its decided between 16 kespa koreans i want to see a clash of continents of playstyles of champions in their region i want to see stardust and polt against kespa not the fucking 12 iteration of flash against random kespa protoss, which we see every week in proleague to the same degree i dont want to see stardust rek the 10th random european terran blizzcon is and was never be about finding the BEST PLAYER in the world, who cares i want entertainment, last time i looked the whole professional scene was build up on viewer numbers .. so everyone who isnt satisfied with 6-7 kespa players in an 16 player tournament, go watch proleague or gsl EDIT: and yeah bunny in the tournament creates much more entertainment, than flash. deal with it. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 26 2014 07:40 cpower wrote: I am pretty sure it's totally Blizzard's intention to implement a system to have Bunny over Flash and JaeDong over Soo for a ranking..... I always thought blizzcon is about to sending the best players to fight for the ultimate championship. Apparently I am wrong. Sure Blizzard's current system is heavily warped by an invite heavy tournament scene, and the lack of participation from KeSPA players outside of the GSL, but that doesn't make your format anything close to a good idea. Also Flash is a particularly unfortunate example to choose. Sure, he currently is one of the best players in the world and will likely do well in the GSL and KeSPA cup, however his results in the WCS circuit this year have not shown it. He finished marooned in Code A twice. As things stand and barring exceptional performance in the aforementioned tournaments he doesn't deserve a spot at Blizzcon even in an equitable format. | ||
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BrassMonkey27
Canada616 Posts
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NexUmbra
Scotland3776 Posts
On August 26 2014 07:44 phil.ipp wrote: EDIT:and yeah bunny in the tournament creates much more entertainment, than flash. deal with it. I think that you would be shocked at how many share that same opinion, not hating on Bunny here but Flash is Flash. On August 26 2014 08:01 BrassMonkey27 wrote: Pro league doesnt have open qualifiers so it should not award WCS points. End of story. Even though it breaks the rules, it is proleague and I feel that it wouldn't be out of the question at all for them to be given an exception to the rule. It isn't just some random tournament. There's no doubt that proleague is tied with GSL in terms of the level of play. With that in mind I think that the better solution would be to award more points for GSL. Although if points were to be awarded for proleague, I wouldn't really mind it all that much. | ||
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SAFenix
Canada439 Posts
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worosei
Australia198 Posts
btw, can someone make a neat comparison showing 'most win/highest win ratio players in SPL against those Kespa qualified for WCS? That way we can see if gsl seeding is fine as it is? also, im not sure if it's still the case, but proleague is a qualifier of sorts; not sure about now, but u needed to 'qualify' in getting a pro-leage licence to play. And at least, getting onto the team themselves is a qualification hurdle hard enough | ||
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N.geNuity
United States5112 Posts
they indirectly can through seeds into tournaments (eg kespa cup, top 2 proleague go there) I definitely think wcs can use tweaking, either in point adjustments or in seeding. A lot of wcs tournaments have heavy bias towards invites/seeds, and often times that is either popularity based/pure invitation or wcs point based (which biases to earlier-in-the-year performance) personally, I think a system of like top 12 WCS points overall go to blizzcon, with a play-in of players 13-16 in overall WCS points and then the top 1 or 2 from each WCS region using exclusively the WCS seasons to determine (without overlap with other WCS) so 12 + 4 (playin of 4 WCS + 6 "regioners"; probably groups of 5 where top 2 advance) [12 + 10 players; round robin groups can be played online for playin pre blizzcon] or 12 WCS + 4 (playin of next 4 WCS + 1AM + 1EU + 1KR +1 other, probably like next highest based on WCS tier 1 events exclusively or a SEA qualifier) [12 + 8 players, can all be offline at blizzcon; should do MSL/GSL style groups of 4] gives a playin chance for people that perform well exclusively in their region, disregarding all the biasing junk associated with non WCS AM/EU/KR tournaments (can't afford to travel/sponsors don't send to travel? KR too stacked? Good foreigner who can't quite get a major tourney win to get that big point boost needed to crack top 16?). A long time ago I remember Mr Chae talking about giving foreigners seeds to GSL with analogy to world cup, that worse teams can get in due to regions. Non WCS tourneys and invites and seeding systems really bias those that have sponsors to fly them around or those that perform the best in season 1 of WCS region X [to get later invites] or adjust point values | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
Look at the current WCS standings. Here are the Kespa players: 7. Zest 11. Life 12. Classic 13. Soo 14. SoS 16. herO Half of them farmed the majority of their points from outside Korea. And with the exception of Zest (who is decently safe), they are all in danger of dropping out of the tournament entirely. There are only two KR players (Rain and Maru) from 17-24 so nobody else is close to qualifying. It is easy to envision a scenario where all of the bubble players get knocked out and the GSL ends up with only 1-2 players seeded in Blizzcon. It's also fairly ridiculous that low seeds are all that they can get. Last year's line-up is more indicative of skill level. This year's Blizzcon could end up being a farce of a competition worthy of another elephant in the room article. The Kespa cup needs to run 2-3 times a year to rectify the situation. Or maybe another GSL type tournament. We had OSL and MSL in the BW days. Awarding points for Proleague is not ideal. There are way better solutions out there. But it's a last resort that should be taken if there isn't as many points for Kespa players. | ||
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andoRRR
Germany36 Posts
Don't see anyone qualifying for Proleague. It would be nice if it was more and shorter seasons with, don't know, 16 teams and 50% of these teams had to qualify. Maybe this would even allow foreign teams to play in Proleague, which is unthinkable atm because of the long stay in Korea. Nobody could play in WCS EU and NA anymore if his team plays in PL. If something like this happens, THEN they can THINK of giving out WCS points for PL. | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
WCS players can't play in proleague, and it just seems unfair to favour them like this. That said, rather than something as vague as "top performers", round winners and overall winners could perhaps be rewarded with some points. That seems like a more clear incentive and reward. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
Not to mention that Proleague is closed off from foreigners so it's giving an advantage to the Koreans. If Kespa wants its players to attend the WCS global event, then the players need to travel to foreign tournaments. | ||
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XiaoJoyce-
China2908 Posts
And there is alot very good players that plays for Kespa & Proleague but not giving equal opportunity to go to Blizzcon. Leave and join foreign team is what Op is trying to address, because teamleague is important for Esport and if every good and ambitious player choose to join foreign team to have more opportunity into Blizzcon, Proleague will start to be lacking . . Anyway I feel the WCS point system is elaborate, but not perfect. And to miss out proleague in the equation, which is one of the frontier , legendary league in Esport since many years? It feels out of place . Anyway, I watch SC2 due to proleague . If Proleague didnt exist , It is bad for Esport overall. There have to be something to be included in WCS point or more seed opportunity or something . . | ||
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caznitch
Canada645 Posts
Do you want to see local heros (by which I mean naturalized Koreans that we're used to seeing in foreign tournaments) or do you want to see the best starcraft players the world has to offer? Once you decide on that then you can relook at WCS point for or against proleauge play. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 26 2014 10:16 andrewlt wrote: Korea just needs more tournaments, period. Either that or more points for the GSL. Look at the current WCS standings. Here are the Kespa players: 7. Zest 11. Life 12. Classic 13. Soo 14. SoS 16. herO Half of them farmed the majority of their points from outside Korea. And with the exception of Zest (who is decently safe), they are all in danger of dropping out of the tournament entirely. There are only two KR players (Rain and Maru) from 17-24 so nobody else is close to qualifying. It is easy to envision a scenario where all of the bubble players get knocked out and the GSL ends up with only 1-2 players seeded in Blizzcon. It's also fairly ridiculous that low seeds are all that they can get. Last year's line-up is more indicative of skill level. This year's Blizzcon could end up being a farce of a competition worthy of another elephant in the room article. The Kespa cup needs to run 2-3 times a year to rectify the situation. Or maybe another GSL type tournament. We had OSL and MSL in the BW days. Awarding points for Proleague is not ideal. There are way better solutions out there. But it's a last resort that should be taken if there isn't as many points for Kespa players. Absolutely agreed. Adding points to Proleague is fraught with difficulties and huge problems outlined in this thread. Even if it could be achieved fairly which I do not think is possible, it would just be a band-aid solution to the problem that Proleague players don't play sufficiently in individual leagues to obtain points for qualification. The only real solution to that is to continue to develop the SC2 tournament scene in Korea. Nothing else will do. | ||
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Deleted User 132135
702 Posts
On June 10 2014 03:16 nkr wrote: Due to Proleague commitments, we rarely get to see the amazing talent of the kespa teams compete outside of Korea. It is a sacrifice they have to make to be able to participate in the premier team league in starcraft 2. However, as things stand, they are being punished in the WCS system. If you have a look at the current WCS Standings, it becomes clear that players on kespa teams very rarely get any points outside of the GSL. The proleague players in the top 16, Zest, Life, herO, sOs, soO and Rain have together amassed 7 appearances in tournaments outside of Korea, out of which 3 belong to Life. Looking further down the list you get barely any attendance outside of Korea. So not only do they compete in by far the hardest WCS region, but they also have no real way of gathering points outside GSL. I feel awarding WCS points for top performers in Proleague would level the playing field for the kespa koreans a lot, ensuring that the players at Blizzcon are actually the best in the world. I also think that Proleague is incredibly important to the existence of Sc2, especially in Korea. Having players being handicaped in the global system because they play in proleague could result in the best players leaving the league. This is obviously not something we want. Giving WCS points for proleague is a very bad idea, here is why: - team managers decide who plays and who not - no access for players that are not in a proleague team Players that decide to travel around the world to play starcraft in the us and europe are taking the risk of lowering their practice standards and suffer from playing less against the korean elite but also against lower foreigners. The others who stay in korea take less risks and therefore the less rewards is quite right. | ||
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