|
Currently, I don't think WCS points reflect skill that well. Look at MC. MC is good, he's probably a top 10 protoss. But he sure as hell is not a top 16 player. And he is 3675. Same with Hyun. He has 3100. That is what a WCS AM/EU first place will do for you. So, it's clear that WCS points are not giving us the BEST players in the world. If people want it to be a better representation of skill, then huge changes need to be made to the system altogether. WCS Korea will always be the hardest and that means that it should have the most weight, but I think it's safe to say they won't do that.
Proleague obviously has the most # of top tier players, but it's a teamleague. PL matches are not the best representation of skill, as there are team-related strategies used. A coach might send out someone for a snipe or something. This doesn't make that player skilled and at all capable of winning something like Code S or WCS Finals. But even then, I think the PL matches are a better representation of skill than the B-class Korean domination of WCS AM/EU (AM more than EU). It's probably a better representation of skill than most foreign tournaments like HSC too.
It's just a matter of how you give PL points. If points were given per team win and placement in each round, then that might work, but that feels sort of weird because people who don't even play much in PL would still be getting points if their team won. If anything, I think the points awarded need to be very low, or else it will create a sort of strange weighting, I think.
I really doubt Blizzard will ever let a teamleague give WCS points.
On June 11 2014 01:43 Xoronius wrote:
No. PL is 100% invite only. If you award points for PL, you must award points for invitationals. If you award points for invitationals, players with high popularity have an edge over better players with lower popularity. If blizzcon attendance is based on popularity, the system is flawed. I think giving out higher points for WCS korea wouldn't be that bad, since the competition in there is still the best IMHO, but we can't start giving out points for an invite only teamleague.
That argument is sort of bad, because HSC is like, 80% invites, and to a bunch of foreigners too. TB's invitational should give more WCS points than HSC, when comparing the player lineups. The qualified players didn't even make top 8. Armani and Stork were the only qualified players to even earn ANY WCS points (a whopping 125).
|
It´s clear, that KESPA players are very disadvantaged by the current WCS system. They HAVE to stay in Korea, because of pro league, so they have to compete in GSL, where Code A may even be harder to get through than Ro8 of WCS Premier League in NA or EU. Additionally they can´t afford to travel that much because of proleague. (I think a lot of Kespa could efford the travel money, but the schedule is the problem here). So Blizzcon has no chance to be the final battlefield of the best of the best. It will be just another international tournament with a huge prizepool.
|
10387 Posts
ppl say that there's potential for shenanigans where coaches can line up certain players to get some points, but these said players would need to be able to win in the highly competitive, cut-throat environment of PL to begin with ... so it's not like the system can be gamed as easily as some people would think. PL teams aren't so dumb to jeopardize their play-off chances like that (or at least I hope they aren't).
If points would be awarded, which I'm in favor of, I think it should only go to the top 5-8 performers overall, which would require a serious investment on the team's part (and would require the player to actually be good enough to be sent out that often). If foreigners or Koreans abroad want to take part in this, they can easily form "alliances" with teams like Liquid and other teams have so far this season.
I think it's a bit humorous to note that poll has a decisive majority for yes, but in this thread most of the posts are dissenting opinions lol
|
The system was designed in a way that is supposed to insure that there is no disadvantage to being in the EU and NA and competing from there. The goal isn't so much as to find the top 16 players overall as to find the top players from each region and those players qualify for the grand final. If they were merely trying to find the top 16 players overall they would give 2 seeds to WCS EU 2 seeds to WCS NA and 12 seeds to WCS Korea and let them duke it out that way but that's not the goal.
|
No, WCS points should not be given to Proleague. What about ATC then? What about other team leagues? You see, this creates a mess.
The problem is, Proleague teams don't prioritize outside tournaments. That's not the fault of WCS. That's the fault of Proleague teams.
It is possible for Proleague teams to allow more players to attend foreign events. Look at Stork and HSC. It just depends on whether they want to make the effort.
However, Blizzard could give more weighting to GSL and OSL because the skill level is higher in GSL and OSL. So players that do well in GSL and OSL can accumulate more points. This is similar to the World Cup giving more spots to European teams because European teams play at a higher skill level.
|
On June 11 2014 01:50 Blargh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 01:43 Xoronius wrote:
No. PL is 100% invite only. If you award points for PL, you must award points for invitationals. If you award points for invitationals, players with high popularity have an edge over better players with lower popularity. If blizzcon attendance is based on popularity, the system is flawed. I think giving out higher points for WCS korea wouldn't be that bad, since the competition in there is still the best IMHO, but we can't start giving out points for an invite only teamleague. That argument is sort of bad, because HSC is like, 80% invites, and to a bunch of foreigners too. TB's invitational should give more WCS points than HSC, when comparing the player lineups. The qualified players didn't even make top 8. Armani and Stork were the only qualified players to even earn ANY WCS points (a whopping 125).
There is a 25%-qualifier quote for all tournaments giving out WCS points. HSC had 25% qualifiers. TB invitational didn't and PL doesn't either. The Shoutcraft Invitational LU can be considered better, but that is up to subjective thinking. Objectively you still have an online 10k invitational on one side and an offline 25k tourney with qualifiers on the other. Don't understand me wrong, I greatly appreciate, what TB and Sandisk did, but they never were contenders for WCS points with their system and I don't really think, that that was their priority either. The reason, Stork and Armani only got 125 points, is that they lost to "a bunch of foreigners", who then got more points than them, they had the possibility to leave with 750/500, but they didn't play good enough for that. It is not the systems fault, if PL players lose early.
|
I'm not too concerned about it being "invite only" as those "invited" are about 80% of the top SC2 players anyways. And that isn't definitely true as you can still get in (see StatePrime).
I think a system that rewards the top 3 or 5 most wins at the end of the season, or maybe top wins every round would be fine.
|
On June 11 2014 02:04 StarcraftMan wrote:
[...]
This is similar to the World Cup giving more spots to European teams because European teams play at a higher skill level.
Handball disagrees. In Top32, 31,5 are from EU. Everyone says that European Cup is much stronger than World Cup, but World Cup is more important.
|
East Gorteau22261 Posts
I think there is an important distinction to make between the best players and the best performing players. You can be however good you want, but if you never perform when and where it matters, there is no reason to invite you to the grand finale. Was Naniwa among the top 16 players in the world last season? No, certainly not, but he had earned his place by performing where it mattered, rather than simply being good but never doing anything with that skill.
It's tough to be a KeSPA player and not get to play a lot of tournaments, but I don't think catering to those players is the right way to go. As a player, you have to prioritize. It isn't fun to miss out on one thing or the other, but we can't expect Blizzard to cater to every tournament organizer and organization that does not want to play by their rules.
|
outside events shouldnt give wcs points, it makes the rich kids get undeserved points. MC top1 wcs points LOL enough said
|
On June 11 2014 02:31 warthog wrote:
outside events shouldnt give wcs points, it makes the rich kids get undeserved points. MC top1 wcs points LOL enough said
With your idea and MC example means Jaedong is already out for Blizzcon.
|
of course not. A thousand reasons against it.
|
In Proleague, don't have to play imbalanced maps. So many Terrans knocked out of other tourneys.
Bbyong(12-3),Flash, and Ty should be in WCS finals
|
I mean, it's clearly an issue of priorities more than anything. Proleague players don't get WCS points because they prioritize proleague over WCS, ergo they should live with the consequences. To them, proleague means a lot more than WCS will ever mean, and a team league title will mean more than an individual. How else to explain Bisu's consistent failure to do well in starleagues but ability to carry SKT year after year (have you heard anybody else go 15-0 with three straight all kills, or 63-15 in a single proleague season?)? It's all priorities; there's no saying that top PL players would even GO to WCS finals if they were invited if they also had PL finals down the line.
tl;dr - PL players empirically priorities PL > individual leagues, it's their choice.
|
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On June 11 2014 02:38 Big J wrote:
of course not. A thousand reasons against it.
Feel free to share.
|
No, because *things said 100 times already in thread*.
Would (still) just prefer to increase the points than can be earned in WCS Korea. With a bit of a bigger increase to the bottom than the top percentage wise.
|
On June 11 2014 02:30 Zealously wrote:
I think there is an important distinction to make between the best players and the best performing players. You can be however good you want, but if you never perform when and where it matters, there is no reason to invite you to the grand finale. Was Naniwa among the top 16 players in the world last season? No, certainly not, but he had earned his place by performing where it mattered, rather than simply being good but never doing anything with that skill.
I don't think you can say that this easily, I mean, his results didn't come from cannon rushing everygame and getting lucky. From the guys placing behind him, I could only rate Rain and maybe soO as definitly better them him over the year. Life and trap were also probably better towards the end, but Life was slumping a bit in the early year, and Trap was only on Nanis level for a very short time. On the other hand, people slightly above him (aLive, duckdeok, Mvp) weren't definitly better than him either.
|
On June 10 2014 04:27 caznitch wrote:
Would support this for sure. That said I'd support anything to get Flash to Blizzcon, including a rule that states, "Flash is guaranteed a spot in Blizzcon despite performance"
+1
----------
i dont think giving to proleague but to gsl, + fixing the game so Terrans will have someone representation from korea would be nice  . the only Terran from korea in WCS is going to be Maru right?
i think the only fix to this is to give more points to KR players in GSL, or less on tournaments outside KR.
|
On June 11 2014 03:02 Requiem- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2014 04:27 caznitch wrote:
Would support this for sure. That said I'd support anything to get Flash to Blizzcon, including a rule that states, "Flash is guaranteed a spot in Blizzcon despite performance" +1 ---------- i dont think giving to proleague but to gsl, + fixing the game so Terrans will have someone representation from korea would be nice . the only Terran from korea in WCS is going to be Maru right?
Depends, Innovation isn't that far away from top 16 either, if he can get a good season 3 and maybe a few other placements, he is not out of it either.
|
On June 11 2014 02:52 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 02:38 Big J wrote:
of course not. A thousand reasons against it. Feel free to share.
-) it's under the WCS season, changing the way how to give points is unfair
-) it's under the proleague season, no team can join currently.
-) it's under the proleague season, its unfair towards anybody who does not get the WCS points from proleague, since they cannot miraculously play 50proleague matches in the next month to get even with the current topdogs
-) players cannot join individually, so - unlike the rest of the WCS system - it isn't fair towards players with smaller teams or no team
-) it's a team league where the players who play (and therefore have a chance to do well) are picked by their coaches. There is no open bracket qualification that makes it possible to play for a player of a team when his coach chose another
-) it's a team league, it's impossible to determine who is the best individually. Win percentage in that format would rate 1-0 players over 20-10. Most wins rates 10-50 over 9-0 and so on...
...
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
