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http://www.ongamers.com/articles/starcraft-players-owed-payments-from-esgn-fight-night-s2/1100-1598/
Following yesterday's onGamers report that ESGN is having financial difficulties and has been unable to pay employees, several professional players have come forth to say that they are also missing payments.
StarCraft 2 players have reportedly not been paid their appearance fee's and prize money for the second season of ESGN Fight Night, including champion Dennis 'HasuObs' Schneider, along with Grubby, White-Ra, Harstem, and Socke.
"I'm owed €1,227 ($1,669) for Season 2 and was told on 11th of February that it should go out beginning of March," Manuel 'Grubby' Schenkhuizen told onGamers. "I've asked for clarification on 19th of April and was told it should have been paid already. I can't speculate as to exactly what has gone on, because we've talked to a few different staff members, but payment has not forthcome."
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
Unfortunately not surprising in the least.
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Not surprising tbh. Production seemed pretty ridiculously overdone for nowhere close to enough roi. Just more unpaid people, and I'd guess some of the employees are out even more than the players. Pretty shitty situation all around.
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Shameful but expected. Here's to hoping that something can be done.
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And the downfall of the Starcraft 2 scene continues. New era, new dawn, same old problems. Sad to say it.
If there was any contracts, the best bet would be to seek legal ramifications under contractual law for breach of agreement/contract in accordance with the terms that were signed and agreed upon by both parties (players and the company).
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Somehow I doubt ESGN used very many contracts.
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I am not surprised 
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As long as their employees are not getting paid the player won't get their price money.
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One day the eSports organizations will have all of their money straight.
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Is the esports bubble popping q_q ?
This after NASL.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On May 31 2014 00:19 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And the downfall of the Starcraft 2 scene continues. New era, new dawn, same old problems. Sad to say it.
This isn't a Starcraft-specific problem. If players are credulous, in any game or any sport, there will be issues with money never being paid out and contracts never existing in the first place. It is a prevalent issue in the SC2 scene, but it is hardly unique to it.
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maybe if they didn't waste money paying pretty girls spinning wheels
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It's a shame cause it was a cool idea, but it doesn't really suprise me.
SC2 doomsayers are just idiotic. A small organisation doing something like this is hardly reflective of the scene itself. Small teams disbanding is the same. When EG, Liquid, GSL, IEM and DH all drop SC2 then you can chat shit about the scene diminishing.
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On May 31 2014 00:36 Larkin wrote:
It's a shame cause it was a cool idea, but it doesn't really suprise me.
SC2 doomsayers are just idiotic. A small organisation doing something like this is hardly reflective of the scene itself. Small teams disbanding is the same. When EG, Liquid, GSL, IEM and DH all drop SC2 then you can chat shit about the scene diminishing.
WCS AM dropping their production was not big news? ^^
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On May 31 2014 00:27 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 00:19 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And the downfall of the Starcraft 2 scene continues. New era, new dawn, same old problems. Sad to say it.
This isn't a Starcraft-specific problem. If players are credulous, in any game or any sport, there will be issues with money never being paid out and contracts never existing in the first place. It is a prevalent issue in the SC2 scene, but it is hardly unique to it.
I agree with you so far as it not being just a Starcraft problem, but it seems like this kind of situation tends to pop up more frequently in SC2 than other games. The only other game I follow is DotA 2, and I've not once heard of issues of this sort revolving around DotA 2. Fortunately though this is an exception and not the norm. Still though, it has to be tough wondering whether you're ever going to be paid for your work.
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On May 31 2014 00:16 Amui wrote:
Not surprising tbh. Production seemed pretty ridiculously overdone for nowhere close to enough roi. Just more unpaid people, and I'd guess some of the employees are out even more than the players. Pretty shitty situation all around.
They had no revenue at all as far as knowledgeable people could tell.
In any case, this is funny because Sapinda still got money to dump into *cough* launder *cough* their other ventures.
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On May 31 2014 00:27 Incognoto wrote:
Is the esports bubble popping q_q ?
This after NASL.
Considering there's an eSports tournament with fans crowd sourcing over 5 million for the prize pool, I don't think the eSports bubble is popping. At worst you could say the SC2 bubble is popping, but this is just a case of any business getting in way over it's head.
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On May 31 2014 00:38 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 00:36 Larkin wrote:
It's a shame cause it was a cool idea, but it doesn't really suprise me.
SC2 doomsayers are just idiotic. A small organisation doing something like this is hardly reflective of the scene itself. Small teams disbanding is the same. When EG, Liquid, GSL, IEM and DH all drop SC2 then you can chat shit about the scene diminishing. WCS AM dropping their production was not big news? ^^
it was.
then ESL took it up. now it isn't a problem anymore.
aside from the money they owed.
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On May 31 2014 00:50 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 00:27 Incognoto wrote:
Is the esports bubble popping q_q ?
This after NASL. Considering there's an eSports tournament with fans crowd sourcing over 5 million for the prize pool, I don't think the eSports bubble is popping. At worst you could say the SC2 bubble is popping, but this is just a case of any business getting in way over it's head.
Oh, my bad, that's what I meant. Is the SC2 bubble popping? NASL didn't sustain itself and now this thing whatever it is (don't watch anything other than GSL) didn't sustain itself either. MLG pulled out of SC2 and won't be coming back afaik.
I'm questioning whether or not WCS is profitable to either ESL or Blizzard as well.
I don't know what to think. I'd say the GSL is safe because it's been working for a while now (prior to SC2's release, no?) and I think they've got themselves covered. However ESL/Blizzard/MLG/NASL are/were trying to play SC2 work as an esport outside of Korea and up until now it seems only ESL is still up and running? You also have the Dreamhacks and HSCs however they're one time events not something based on a format spread over several weeks.
Just thinking out-loud.
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Canada16217 Posts
On May 31 2014 00:57 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 00:50 Wingblade wrote:On May 31 2014 00:27 Incognoto wrote:
Is the esports bubble popping q_q ?
This after NASL. Considering there's an eSports tournament with fans crowd sourcing over 5 million for the prize pool, I don't think the eSports bubble is popping. At worst you could say the SC2 bubble is popping, but this is just a case of any business getting in way over it's head. Oh, my bad, that's what I meant. Is the SC2 bubble popping? NASL didn't sustain itself and now this thing whatever it is (don't watch anything other than GSL) didn't sustain itself either. MLG pulled out of SC2 and won't be coming back afaik. I'm questioning whether or not WCS is profitable to either ESL or Blizzard as well. I don't know what to think. I'd say the GSL is safe because it's been working for a while now (prior to SC2's release, no?) and I think they've got themselves covered. However ESL/Blizzard/MLG/NASL are/were trying to play SC2 work as an esport outside of Korea and up until now it seems only ESL is still up and running? You also have the Dreamhacks and HSCs however they're one time events not something based on a format spread over several weeks. Just thinking out-loud.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_MLG_Anaheim
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Northern Ireland174 Posts
On May 31 2014 00:32 Extenz wrote:
maybe if they didn't waste money paying pretty girls spinning wheels
waste? for shame sir.
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Canada16217 Posts
On May 31 2014 00:57 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 00:50 Wingblade wrote:On May 31 2014 00:27 Incognoto wrote:
Is the esports bubble popping q_q ?
This after NASL. Considering there's an eSports tournament with fans crowd sourcing over 5 million for the prize pool, I don't think the eSports bubble is popping. At worst you could say the SC2 bubble is popping, but this is just a case of any business getting in way over it's head. Oh, my bad, that's what I meant. Is the SC2 bubble popping? NASL didn't sustain itself and now this thing whatever it is (don't watch anything other than GSL) didn't sustain itself either. MLG pulled out of SC2 and won't be coming back afaik. I'm questioning whether or not WCS is profitable to either ESL or Blizzard as well. I don't know what to think. I'd say the GSL is safe because it's been working for a while now (prior to SC2's release, no?) and I think they've got themselves covered. However ESL/Blizzard/MLG/NASL are/were trying to play SC2 work as an esport outside of Korea and up until now it seems only ESL is still up and running? You also have the Dreamhacks and HSCs however they're one time events not something based on a format spread over several weeks. Just thinking out-loud.
Has little to do with starcraft and more to do with how shady/poorly run a business this was
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/447034-azubu-receives-345-million-from-sapinda-esgn
They also ran Hearthstone events
You should watch unfiltered where they talk about esgn
+ Show Spoiler +
not sure which parts exactly but theirs all 4 parts.
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On May 31 2014 00:38 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 00:36 Larkin wrote:
It's a shame cause it was a cool idea, but it doesn't really suprise me.
SC2 doomsayers are just idiotic. A small organisation doing something like this is hardly reflective of the scene itself. Small teams disbanding is the same. When EG, Liquid, GSL, IEM and DH all drop SC2 then you can chat shit about the scene diminishing. WCS AM dropping their production was not big news? ^^
It was big news but everyone knows that SC2 has struggled in NA much more than in EU or KR. The caliber of players between the three regions is vastly different and NA just happens to be on the bottom. Part of the problem was pointed out in that interview with Suppy and Kane. People also want to see their "local" players on the international stage and actually able to compete. My point is some of the problems with the NA scene is not because their isn't any money and businesses can't be profitable but because of the quality and dedication of the players.
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What irks me slightly is that as a specator I don't really care about the massive production sets. All I really want is an roughly good line up, good quality stream and to have a pair of semi-familiar voices casting the games.
Start basic and build it up / scale it back as and when the fans are / aren't there.
IMO people don't tune in for the spectacle and the awe of an amazing stage / set up etc etc. People tune in as they love the game and the competition. For example - don't get me wrong it's kinda cool to see an interview with the winner of a game immediately after it finishes - but first and formeost I want to see the game. So the cost of trying to make that interview happen (flights, compares, camera crew, lighting, translators etc) doesn't actually add anything to the games that I'm wathing. So why do it?
I feel that we do this in EU / NA as we feel the need to compete with KR - which is daft as their fan base is simply bigger. Jin Air are plastered on a plane!!! That's not going to happen outside of KR...
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I'm curious as to what sort of knowledge the likes of Frodan had as he began working with ESGN; surely he brought with him at least some taste of the failure that the NASL suffered. Was he just "along for the ride" so to speak, and are community figures that hop from one failed venture to another really going to play dumb in perpetuity?
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Worst SC2 tournament ever, I think it was suspected they would fail.
This is a shame for the Grubby and the others, but I don't see that as another sign of the scene to collapse.
When even the likes of Painuser still get a consistent 40+ viewers, the scene is apparently very healthy.
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On May 31 2014 00:58 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 00:57 Incognoto wrote:On May 31 2014 00:50 Wingblade wrote:On May 31 2014 00:27 Incognoto wrote:
Is the esports bubble popping q_q ?
This after NASL. Considering there's an eSports tournament with fans crowd sourcing over 5 million for the prize pool, I don't think the eSports bubble is popping. At worst you could say the SC2 bubble is popping, but this is just a case of any business getting in way over it's head. Oh, my bad, that's what I meant. Is the SC2 bubble popping? NASL didn't sustain itself and now this thing whatever it is (don't watch anything other than GSL) didn't sustain itself either. MLG pulled out of SC2 and won't be coming back afaik. I'm questioning whether or not WCS is profitable to either ESL or Blizzard as well. I don't know what to think. I'd say the GSL is safe because it's been working for a while now (prior to SC2's release, no?) and I think they've got themselves covered. However ESL/Blizzard/MLG/NASL are/were trying to play SC2 work as an esport outside of Korea and up until now it seems only ESL is still up and running? You also have the Dreamhacks and HSCs however they're one time events not something based on a format spread over several weeks. Just thinking out-loud. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_MLG_Anaheim
I didn't know far enough apparently.
No yeah that's great then. like, sincerely, i'm actually happy to hear SC2 is going to get another mlg
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On May 31 2014 00:32 Extenz wrote:
maybe if they didn't waste money paying pretty girls spinning wheels
"paying"
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On May 31 2014 00:19 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And the downfall of the Starcraft 2 scene continues. New era, new dawn, same old problems. Sad to say it.
If there was any contracts, the best bet would be to seek legal ramifications under contractual law for breach of agreement/contract in accordance with the terms that were signed and agreed upon by both parties (players and the company).
Downfall of the SC2 scene /= a shitty organization not paying. There are loads of reliable organizations in the scene that are still paying their employees and contestants.
It sucks that these people were taken advantage of, but it isn't the end of the scene. Let's be real here.
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On May 31 2014 01:04 Stress wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 00:38 sharkie wrote:On May 31 2014 00:36 Larkin wrote:
It's a shame cause it was a cool idea, but it doesn't really suprise me.
SC2 doomsayers are just idiotic. A small organisation doing something like this is hardly reflective of the scene itself. Small teams disbanding is the same. When EG, Liquid, GSL, IEM and DH all drop SC2 then you can chat shit about the scene diminishing. WCS AM dropping their production was not big news? ^^ It was big news but everyone knows that SC2 has struggled in NA much more than in EU or KR. The caliber of players between the three regions is vastly different and NA just happens to be on the bottom. Part of the problem was pointed out in that interview with Suppy and Kane. People also want to see their "local" players on the international stage and actually able to compete. My point is some of the problems with the NA scene is not because their isn't any money and businesses can't be profitable but because of the quality and dedication of the players.
The problem with the NA scene is that they fostered an audience that was focused on drama over Starcraft.
Those who were the most successful were those who played the celebrity gossip card the hardest.
So once the novelty of the angry nerds who made money by being good at a computer game faded away,
The mainstream audience moved on and unlike in Korea and Europe there weren't enough hardcore fans left to watch.
I'm sure the drama mongers (JP, incontrol, IdrA, Painuser, Destiny) made more money than the Europeans, but they weren't in it for the long run and have long since moved on to other endeavors.
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On May 31 2014 01:44 teddyoojo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 00:32 Extenz wrote:
maybe if they didn't waste money paying pretty girls spinning wheels "paying"
Hey now. They can tell their non-contracted employees they'll get "paid". You try telling a pretty girl spinning wheels (aka model) you'll pay them later... it won't go well.
Those girls, at least, I'm thinking were paid.
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On May 31 2014 00:57 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 00:50 Wingblade wrote:On May 31 2014 00:27 Incognoto wrote:
Is the esports bubble popping q_q ?
This after NASL. Considering there's an eSports tournament with fans crowd sourcing over 5 million for the prize pool, I don't think the eSports bubble is popping. At worst you could say the SC2 bubble is popping, but this is just a case of any business getting in way over it's head. Oh, my bad, that's what I meant. Is the SC2 bubble popping? NASL didn't sustain itself and now this thing whatever it is (don't watch anything other than GSL) didn't sustain itself either. MLG pulled out of SC2 and won't be coming back afaik. I'm questioning whether or not WCS is profitable to either ESL or Blizzard as well. I don't know what to think. I'd say the GSL is safe because it's been working for a while now (prior to SC2's release, no?) and I think they've got themselves covered. However ESL/Blizzard/MLG/NASL are/were trying to play SC2 work as an esport outside of Korea and up until now it seems only ESL is still up and running? You also have the Dreamhacks and HSCs however they're one time events not something based on a format spread over several weeks. Just thinking out-loud.
MLG will be back with SC2 next month..
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It's a damn shame that proper budgeting and funding tarnishing the reputation of organizations. They shouldn't put on events and tournaments on money speculation and instead use liquid assets that they currently have to make things work.
Sad but unexpected
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If as a player you're participating in Clauf sponsored events you kind of could have seen this coming.
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On May 31 2014 01:46 SixStrings wrote:
I'm sure the drama mongers (JP, incontrol, IdrA, Painuser, Destiny) made more money than the Europeans, but they weren't in it for the long run and have long since moved on to other endeavors.
Yeah I might have messed up the MLG thing, my bad. However this is bullshit. I don't quite follow JP and I don't even know who Painuser is.
Destiny has set himself up as a someone can stream for a living so he has to make active choices about what's going to make the most money via viewers.
Now, Idra and Incontrol are two individuals who put everything on the line for Starcraft, both SC:BW and SC2 (Destiny put everything on the line for his stream so to speak so it's a different matter). Idra got half disowned by his parents for going to Korea to play SC:BW, then made the transition to SC2 because he assumed that it would be more foreign-friendly than SCBW and spent 3 years doing that (including at least one IEM first place finish lost due to broken reapers, anyone who says otherwise is an idiot). He worked so hard for the game, harder than you probably ever will doing whatever it is you do. Incontrol is the same thing. He broke the bank to go to NA tournaments in SC and got hired by EG when they saw a promising player. "Hired". He was paid like $200 a month or something. Do you really think these two were into starcraft for the money? Is it not obviously stupidly clear that they both loved starcraft and the scene that was around it. They weren't in it for the long run? Bullshit.
People have this stupid assumption that money just falls from the sky when they're in esports. It friggin' doesn't. People who strive to make a living off of esports have to friggin' hard for it.
/end rant. though I wouldn't have ranted if you hadn't said something so blatantly disrespectful though.
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What did Painuser do? I remember him being a quiet guy on the side who didn't get much attention at all except for when he beat Nony at an MLG (one that Jinro won) with Banshees.
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They have the money for that amazing studio but not for the players or staff . Such a shame
At least Grubby showed us the best immortal imitation ever:
+ Show Spoiler +
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This is what happens when you let people without brains run businesses
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On May 31 2014 02:03 Incognoto wrote:
People have this stupid assumption that money just falls from the sky when they're in esports. It friggin' doesn't. People who strive to make a living off of esports have to friggin' hard for it.
/end rant. though I wouldn't have ranted if you hadn't said something so blatantly disrespectful though.
Well, unless you are Stephano. Then money keeps raining even during retirement :D
I agree with what you said though
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On May 31 2014 00:39 pajoondies wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 00:27 Zealously wrote:On May 31 2014 00:19 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And the downfall of the Starcraft 2 scene continues. New era, new dawn, same old problems. Sad to say it.
This isn't a Starcraft-specific problem. If players are credulous, in any game or any sport, there will be issues with money never being paid out and contracts never existing in the first place. It is a prevalent issue in the SC2 scene, but it is hardly unique to it. I agree with you so far as it not being just a Starcraft problem, but it seems like this kind of situation tends to pop up more frequently in SC2 than other games. The only other game I follow is DotA 2, and I've not once heard of issues of this sort revolving around DotA 2. Fortunately though this is an exception and not the norm. Still though, it has to be tough wondering whether you're ever going to be paid for your work.
There has been cases like this in Dota 2. In addition, managers making off with money, and even charity scandals. In specific to the ESGN case, they also ran Fight Nights for LoL, SFIV, and Hearthstone, so it's definitely not just a SC2 problem.
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On May 31 2014 00:27 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 00:19 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And the downfall of the Starcraft 2 scene continues. New era, new dawn, same old problems. Sad to say it.
This isn't a Starcraft-specific problem. If players are credulous, in any game or any sport, there will be issues with money never being paid out and contracts never existing in the first place. It is a prevalent issue in the SC2 scene, but it is hardly unique to it.
While true, this is much more commonplace in starcraft than LoL or Dota. Massive organizations not paying 5 or 6 figures worth of payments to players is often the tune of SC2.
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On May 31 2014 02:40 LongShot27 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 00:27 Zealously wrote:On May 31 2014 00:19 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And the downfall of the Starcraft 2 scene continues. New era, new dawn, same old problems. Sad to say it.
This isn't a Starcraft-specific problem. If players are credulous, in any game or any sport, there will be issues with money never being paid out and contracts never existing in the first place. It is a prevalent issue in the SC2 scene, but it is hardly unique to it. While true, this is much more commonplace in starcraft than LoL or Dota. Massive organizations not paying 5 or 6 figures worth of payments to players is often the tune of SC2.
Simply because there are barely any massive organizations in Lol and Dota except Riot and Valve themselves.
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what? The Summit , JoinDota , and more. There are actually way more large Dota organizations than any other game. Valve is barely involved in Dota except for TI once per year. Completely opposite of Riot, who is basically involved in everything year-round
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Biggest surprise for me is that White Ra is getting games, despite not winning a game this side of 2012.
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Im pretty sure everybody was asking where ESGNS money was coming from. I guess we know now (or rather were it didnt come from)
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doubt they will get the money If the company has none to give.
They should be happy they at least got travel expenses paid.
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On May 31 2014 03:18 PPN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 02:40 LongShot27 wrote:On May 31 2014 00:27 Zealously wrote:On May 31 2014 00:19 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And the downfall of the Starcraft 2 scene continues. New era, new dawn, same old problems. Sad to say it.
This isn't a Starcraft-specific problem. If players are credulous, in any game or any sport, there will be issues with money never being paid out and contracts never existing in the first place. It is a prevalent issue in the SC2 scene, but it is hardly unique to it. While true, this is much more commonplace in starcraft than LoL or Dota. Massive organizations not paying 5 or 6 figures worth of payments to players is often the tune of SC2. Simply because there are barely any massive organizations in Lol and Dota except Riot and Valve themselves.
People aren't making the mistake of over-investing into something they don't know will make a profit. That's called good business,
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On May 31 2014 01:46 felisconcolori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 01:44 teddyoojo wrote:On May 31 2014 00:32 Extenz wrote:
maybe if they didn't waste money paying pretty girls spinning wheels "paying" Hey now. They can tell their non-contracted employees they'll get "paid". You try telling a pretty girl spinning wheels (aka model) you'll pay them later... it won't go well. Those girls, at least, I'm thinking were paid.
I didn't watch this thing, but they had models on an esports show? clauf kingdom.
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On May 31 2014 00:19 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And the downfall of the Starcraft 2 scene continues. New era, new dawn, same old problems. Sad to say it.
If there was any contracts, the best bet would be to seek legal ramifications under contractual law for breach of agreement/contract in accordance with the terms that were signed and agreed upon by both parties (players and the company).
lol
not surprising a Brood War fan would make a stupid comment like this on the SC2 scene, and ignoring the fact that it's not even about SC2.
User was banned for this post.
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On May 31 2014 04:08 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 01:46 felisconcolori wrote:On May 31 2014 01:44 teddyoojo wrote:On May 31 2014 00:32 Extenz wrote:
maybe if they didn't waste money paying pretty girls spinning wheels "paying" Hey now. They can tell their non-contracted employees they'll get "paid". You try telling a pretty girl spinning wheels (aka model) you'll pay them later... it won't go well. Those girls, at least, I'm thinking were paid. I didn't watch this thing, but they had models on an esports show? clauf kingdom.
pics or it didn't happen
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On May 31 2014 04:29 woslings wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 00:19 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And the downfall of the Starcraft 2 scene continues. New era, new dawn, same old problems. Sad to say it.
If there was any contracts, the best bet would be to seek legal ramifications under contractual law for breach of agreement/contract in accordance with the terms that were signed and agreed upon by both parties (players and the company). lol not surprising a Brood War fan would make a stupid comment like this on the SC2 scene, and ignoring the fact that it's not even about SC2.
useless post.
wasn't esgn founded by the sepinda group?
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Woah, why does remind me of own3d so much
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On May 31 2014 04:08 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 01:46 felisconcolori wrote:On May 31 2014 01:44 teddyoojo wrote:On May 31 2014 00:32 Extenz wrote:
maybe if they didn't waste money paying pretty girls spinning wheels "paying" Hey now. They can tell their non-contracted employees they'll get "paid". You try telling a pretty girl spinning wheels (aka model) you'll pay them later... it won't go well. Those girls, at least, I'm thinking were paid. I didn't watch this thing, but they had models on an esports show? clauf kingdom.
Hey, NASL had Lauren Elise, who is both a model and currently aspring to be an actress. (In addition to writing poetry and singing.) Now, she might not have been a good fit to the community for what she was doing, but she was trying at least. As far as models... well, if you see pretty girls doing silly things at an esports event or conference, odds are they're models of one kind or another. (Dr. Pepper girls at MLG. Booth babes of all kinds.) I'm just glad they are willing to put up with us.
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Thankful for booth babes? That seems rather odd.
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On May 31 2014 05:34 farvacola wrote:
Thankful for booth babes? That seems rather odd.
Thankful that they are willing to put up with the behavior exhibited by a fair number of fans at such events. Not all certainly, but a fair number.
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On May 31 2014 05:35 felisconcolori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 05:34 farvacola wrote:
Thankful for booth babes? That seems rather odd. Thankful that they are willing to put up with the behavior exhibited by a fair number of fans at such events. Not all certainly, but a fair number.
money is a big motivator
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On May 31 2014 01:27 farvacola wrote:
I'm curious as to what sort of knowledge the likes of Frodan had as he began working with ESGN; surely he brought with him at least some taste of the failure that the NASL suffered. Was he just "along for the ride" so to speak, and are community figures that hop from one failed venture to another really going to play dumb in perpetuity?
I'm guessing Frodan saw an organization that had better funding that NASL (remember he joined after they were already having problems fulfilling their promised prize-pools and were scaling back).
What surprises me though is that ESGN has Snowbird, since he's from a pretty established provider, but then ESGN was also headed by someone from Korea so that probably provided some weird credibility to recruit others. I'm sure the fact that they were backed by a major investment group helped with the credibility too.
Remember too that Sapinda put the money into ESGN knowing that they would operate at a loss in the first year, so the fact that they didn't make money wasn't a problem. Nor would there have been any reason to think people taking their money knew it was just a short-term cash grab. The problem was that whoever was in charge of ESGN decided that 'operate at a loss' = don't have to follow the budget and ran out of cash and couldn't convince the invstors to give him more.
I highly doubt Frodan was involved with any of that.
My take on community figures that hop around isn't that they're cynically playing dumb or hopelessly naive. I think rather there are so few opportunities in eSports that they just have to accept lots of risks to stick around the business.
One of the guys posting/effected by the Quantic fiasco was a 10-year vet of the scene who basically said as much.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
Clauf can't pay pay out money?????????????????????
IT CANT BE!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
Though to be fair to Azubu it took them 2 years to give up, but they did pay out their players (I think?). And their was much more vitrol about AZUBU than Clauf who took 3 months to fold.
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On May 31 2014 05:50 stuchiu wrote:
Though to be fair to Azubu it took them 2 years to give up, but they did pay out their players (I think?). And their was much more vitrol about AZUBU than Clauf who took 3 months to fold.
Ah, but Azubu isn't quite dead yet. They have the GEM guys streaming on their platform even if the team is gone.
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On May 31 2014 09:00 felisconcolori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 05:50 stuchiu wrote:
Though to be fair to Azubu it took them 2 years to give up, but they did pay out their players (I think?). And their was much more vitrol about AZUBU than Clauf who took 3 months to fold. Ah, but Azubu isn't quite dead yet. They have the GEM guys streaming on their platform even if the team is gone.
Azubu is truly impressive
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In essence the Esports scene for SC2 suffers form declining viewership because the game is broken as fuck and will never be a worthy successor to Brood War. Someone had to say it.
User was temp banned for this post.
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money in sc2 is fast drying up
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On May 31 2014 15:14 Axeltl wrote:
In essence the Esports scene for SC2 suffers form declining viewership because the game is broken as fuck and will never be a worthy successor to Brood War. Someone had to say it.
Someone had to say what? Uninformed, hate speech?
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On May 31 2014 15:14 Axeltl wrote:
In essence the Esports scene for SC2 suffers form declining viewership because the game is broken as fuck and will never be a worthy successor to Brood War. Someone had to say it.
well that was a constructive post
i dont see how a shady organisation with huge production costs and a barleey veiwed/ advertised product had anything to do with the game
if anything its the buisness scence of the clauf/zubu/sapinda group that needs to be called into question
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On May 31 2014 15:14 Axeltl wrote:
In essence the Esports scene for SC2 suffers form declining viewership because the game is broken as fuck and will never be a worthy successor to Brood War. Someone had to say it.
Jeez, you so in love with that game? I grew up playing red alert. "OMG change the game to be like red alert or dead game. " /sarcasm
I switched to sc2 because it is the ONLY competitive RTS out there and it IS balanced. The best player always wins. It's easily the best game I played in my life. I'm sure many will agree. Sorry to break it to you but brood war is dead and not coming back anytime soon. No need to be a hater.
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Every growing eSports sector has its own problems.
While things in Korea seem like they are the Mecca of eSports now, things weren't always so gravy in the past.
To become the entity it is now, they had to go through multiple scandals and bankruptcy.
Thus KeSPA was formed to put strict regulations and oversight on the industry.
While it has made several questionable choices in the past, they have made a "hobby" into a thriving and sustainable industry.
I believe each "blocs" of regions should create a body of representatives to be responsible for the industry as whole and can enforce "regulations" on negative influences.
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how does sc2 actually do these days? i am not in this scene anymore, just wanted to browse the kpop forum but saw this thread. When i go to twitch sc2 has pretty low viewership. dont know bout tournaments etc. is it really bad? cuz just from the occasional surprise at how low the viewer numbers are at twitch i ve no clue :3
just looking at the sidebar it looks like a lot less people stream this game O.o
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i dont follow either game atm but afaik sc2 viewship is pretty good (very good, some people said all-time high iirc)
and bw viewship is also stable and solid (probably increasing) since it has had a massively revived scene in korea for a long time now (huge leagues with professional production).
its hard to compare to dota because in dota people watch ingame, you might get 20k stream viewers and then 40k ingame viewers (dont quote me, but you can see the stats if you watch ingame). also dota is starting its annual league which has a prize pool of 7.5MILLION and rising (for 1 tourney) compared to 2.8 mil last year (big increase). (there are other major dota tournies like nonstop evevry day, not just the 1 big one)
LoL seems to have like 200,000 viewers per random streamer personality when i glance over , it's like its own separate league
no idea about hearthstone but i think trump still gets 20k regular. its an entertaining game to watch (i just watch tb's videos and occaisionally buy a new laptop after throwing it out the window)
no idea about HOStorm, i havent seen any promotion or talk about it tbh, but i dont go looking
minecraft (aka YOGSCAST) is probably one of the biggest games watched still. yogscast are a comedy show that roleplay in minecraft and get like 1M hits per video. and for good reason, they are brilliant (tho simon had started swearing when i last watched and it brought the quality down a substantial amount imo). i recommend their TEKKIT series as a starter (like 100+ episodes) and any YOGSLAB episodes (where they incorporate new gameplay mechanics into roleplayed events)
also i watch jp's/koibu0's youtube channel where they do Dungeons & Dragons roleplay episodes every day. nonstop fantasy adventure.
theres a lot of competition for viewship as you can see. i only watch yogs/jp/dota/totalbiscuit and will go 3 weeks without seeing some of them coz theres just so much good content
- random guy who doesnt watch any streams anymore
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On May 31 2014 23:54 FFGenerations wrote:
i dont follow either game atm but afaik sc2 viewship is pretty good (very good, some people said all-time high iirc)
and bw viewship is also stable and solid (probably increasing) since it has had a massively revived scene in korea for a long time now (huge leagues with professional production).
its hard to compare to dota because in dota people watch ingame, you might get 20k stream viewers and then 40k ingame viewers (dont quote me, but you can see the stats if you watch ingame). also dota is starting its annual league which has a prize pool of 7.5MILLION and rising (for 1 tourney) compared to 2.8 mil last year (big increase). (there are other major dota tournies like nonstop evevry day, not just the 1 big one)
LoL seems to have like 200,000 viewers per random streamer personality when i glance over , it's like its own separate league
no idea about hearthstone but i think trump still gets 20k regular. its an entertaining game to watch (i just watch tb's videos and occaisionally buy a new laptop after throwing it out the window)
no idea about HOStorm, i havent seen any promotion or talk about it tbh, but i dont go looking
minecraft (aka YOGSCAST) is probably one of the biggest games watched still. yogscast are a comedy show that roleplay in minecraft and get like 1M hits per video. and for good reason, they are brilliant (tho simon had started swearing when i last watched and it brought the quality down a substantial amount imo). i recommend their TEKKIT series as a starter (like 100+ episodes) and any YOGSLAB episodes (where they incorporate new gameplay mechanics into roleplayed events)
also i watch jp's/koibu0's youtube channel where they do Dungeons & Dragons roleplay episodes every day. nonstop fantasy adventure.
theres a lot of competition for viewship as you can see. i only watch yogs/jp/dota/totalbiscuit and will go 3 weeks without seeing some of them coz theres just so much good content
- random guy who doesnt watch any streams anymore
Ever noticed LoL viewership is fucking awful outside of LCS and the chosen few LCS streamer personalities? Seriously, online tournaments in that game are a fools errand. Anything independent outside of LCS and the really big offline events like IEM gets pathetic viewership. Lonestar Clash, TSMs invitationals, it's pretty bad overall. Their scene is LCS + backing band and ultimately I don't think that's going to be healthy for them in the long run. It definitely turns potential event organizers away and makes their scene far more stagnant than ours, even if LCS gets much higher viewership than anything we do.
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On June 01 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 23:54 FFGenerations wrote:
i dont follow either game atm but afaik sc2 viewship is pretty good (very good, some people said all-time high iirc)
and bw viewship is also stable and solid (probably increasing) since it has had a massively revived scene in korea for a long time now (huge leagues with professional production).
its hard to compare to dota because in dota people watch ingame, you might get 20k stream viewers and then 40k ingame viewers (dont quote me, but you can see the stats if you watch ingame). also dota is starting its annual league which has a prize pool of 7.5MILLION and rising (for 1 tourney) compared to 2.8 mil last year (big increase). (there are other major dota tournies like nonstop evevry day, not just the 1 big one)
LoL seems to have like 200,000 viewers per random streamer personality when i glance over , it's like its own separate league
no idea about hearthstone but i think trump still gets 20k regular. its an entertaining game to watch (i just watch tb's videos and occaisionally buy a new laptop after throwing it out the window)
no idea about HOStorm, i havent seen any promotion or talk about it tbh, but i dont go looking
minecraft (aka YOGSCAST) is probably one of the biggest games watched still. yogscast are a comedy show that roleplay in minecraft and get like 1M hits per video. and for good reason, they are brilliant (tho simon had started swearing when i last watched and it brought the quality down a substantial amount imo). i recommend their TEKKIT series as a starter (like 100+ episodes) and any YOGSLAB episodes (where they incorporate new gameplay mechanics into roleplayed events)
also i watch jp's/koibu0's youtube channel where they do Dungeons & Dragons roleplay episodes every day. nonstop fantasy adventure.
theres a lot of competition for viewship as you can see. i only watch yogs/jp/dota/totalbiscuit and will go 3 weeks without seeing some of them coz theres just so much good content
- random guy who doesnt watch any streams anymore Ever noticed LoL viewership is fucking awful outside of LCS and the chosen few LCS streamer personalities? Seriously, online tournaments in that game are a fools errand. Anything independent outside of LCS and the really big offline events like IEM gets pathetic viewership. Lonestar Clash, TSMs invitationals, it's pretty bad overall. Their scene is LCS + backing band and ultimately I don't think that's going to be healthy for them in the long run. It definitely turns potential event organizers away and makes their scene far more stagnant than ours, even if LCS gets much higher viewership than anything we do.
Its because the LCS is the biggest and most important LoL tournament, for not say the only anyone cares. Other organizations shouldn't waste money on making LoL tournaments most LoL players wont care about it.
But is a healthy situation with all the big propaganda Riot gets for his game with a really nice production. LCS will last for a long time, its a win-win scenario for Riot and viewers.
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I have a feeling that from the dawn of SC2, Blizzard's marketing budget has been a big factor in the esports scene and that will probably remain the case. I think GSL has been propped up by Blizzard from the start and of course WCS is basically a Blizzard charity. While it would of course if actual sustainability could be reached from independent businesses, the viewership is simply not there in SC2. So I'm very grateful to Blizzard for what they have done and what I'm sure they will continue to do.
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On May 31 2014 05:30 felisconcolori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 04:08 Dodgin wrote:On May 31 2014 01:46 felisconcolori wrote:On May 31 2014 01:44 teddyoojo wrote:On May 31 2014 00:32 Extenz wrote:
maybe if they didn't waste money paying pretty girls spinning wheels "paying" Hey now. They can tell their non-contracted employees they'll get "paid". You try telling a pretty girl spinning wheels (aka model) you'll pay them later... it won't go well. Those girls, at least, I'm thinking were paid. I didn't watch this thing, but they had models on an esports show? clauf kingdom. Hey, NASL had Lauren Elise, who is both a model and currently aspring to be an actress. (In addition to writing poetry and singing.) Now, she might not have been a good fit to the community for what she was doing, but she was trying at least. As far as models... well, if you see pretty girls doing silly things at an esports event or conference, odds are they're models of one kind or another. (Dr. Pepper girls at MLG. Booth babes of all kinds.) I'm just glad they are willing to put up with us.
Maybe companies should put more money into getting good casters/players/not hour long commercials instead of a pretty face.
While I don't mind looking at Lauren, she doesn't really add value to the show (n/o).
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got to love esports best businesses ever.
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On June 01 2014 03:30 F1rstAssau1t wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote:On May 31 2014 23:54 FFGenerations wrote:
i dont follow either game atm but afaik sc2 viewship is pretty good (very good, some people said all-time high iirc)
and bw viewship is also stable and solid (probably increasing) since it has had a massively revived scene in korea for a long time now (huge leagues with professional production).
its hard to compare to dota because in dota people watch ingame, you might get 20k stream viewers and then 40k ingame viewers (dont quote me, but you can see the stats if you watch ingame). also dota is starting its annual league which has a prize pool of 7.5MILLION and rising (for 1 tourney) compared to 2.8 mil last year (big increase). (there are other major dota tournies like nonstop evevry day, not just the 1 big one)
LoL seems to have like 200,000 viewers per random streamer personality when i glance over , it's like its own separate league
no idea about hearthstone but i think trump still gets 20k regular. its an entertaining game to watch (i just watch tb's videos and occaisionally buy a new laptop after throwing it out the window)
no idea about HOStorm, i havent seen any promotion or talk about it tbh, but i dont go looking
minecraft (aka YOGSCAST) is probably one of the biggest games watched still. yogscast are a comedy show that roleplay in minecraft and get like 1M hits per video. and for good reason, they are brilliant (tho simon had started swearing when i last watched and it brought the quality down a substantial amount imo). i recommend their TEKKIT series as a starter (like 100+ episodes) and any YOGSLAB episodes (where they incorporate new gameplay mechanics into roleplayed events)
also i watch jp's/koibu0's youtube channel where they do Dungeons & Dragons roleplay episodes every day. nonstop fantasy adventure.
theres a lot of competition for viewship as you can see. i only watch yogs/jp/dota/totalbiscuit and will go 3 weeks without seeing some of them coz theres just so much good content
- random guy who doesnt watch any streams anymore Ever noticed LoL viewership is fucking awful outside of LCS and the chosen few LCS streamer personalities? Seriously, online tournaments in that game are a fools errand. Anything independent outside of LCS and the really big offline events like IEM gets pathetic viewership. Lonestar Clash, TSMs invitationals, it's pretty bad overall. Their scene is LCS + backing band and ultimately I don't think that's going to be healthy for them in the long run. It definitely turns potential event organizers away and makes their scene far more stagnant than ours, even if LCS gets much higher viewership than anything we do. Its because the LCS is the biggest and most important LoL tournament, for not say the only anyone cares. Other organizations shouldn't waste money on making LoL tournaments most LoL players wont care about it. But is a healthy situation with all the big propaganda Riot gets for his game with a really nice production. LCS will last for a long time, its a win-win scenario for Riot and viewers.
That was his point, no one cares about tournaments outside of the LCS. How you can twist that into something being healthy is a feat. There's virtually no other big sport in the world that functions that way. The bigger the sport, the more tiers of competition you get because people enjoy watching the game. LoL is the opposite of that.
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On June 01 2014 18:10 gruff wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 03:30 F1rstAssau1t wrote:On June 01 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote:On May 31 2014 23:54 FFGenerations wrote:
i dont follow either game atm but afaik sc2 viewship is pretty good (very good, some people said all-time high iirc)
and bw viewship is also stable and solid (probably increasing) since it has had a massively revived scene in korea for a long time now (huge leagues with professional production).
its hard to compare to dota because in dota people watch ingame, you might get 20k stream viewers and then 40k ingame viewers (dont quote me, but you can see the stats if you watch ingame). also dota is starting its annual league which has a prize pool of 7.5MILLION and rising (for 1 tourney) compared to 2.8 mil last year (big increase). (there are other major dota tournies like nonstop evevry day, not just the 1 big one)
LoL seems to have like 200,000 viewers per random streamer personality when i glance over , it's like its own separate league
no idea about hearthstone but i think trump still gets 20k regular. its an entertaining game to watch (i just watch tb's videos and occaisionally buy a new laptop after throwing it out the window)
no idea about HOStorm, i havent seen any promotion or talk about it tbh, but i dont go looking
minecraft (aka YOGSCAST) is probably one of the biggest games watched still. yogscast are a comedy show that roleplay in minecraft and get like 1M hits per video. and for good reason, they are brilliant (tho simon had started swearing when i last watched and it brought the quality down a substantial amount imo). i recommend their TEKKIT series as a starter (like 100+ episodes) and any YOGSLAB episodes (where they incorporate new gameplay mechanics into roleplayed events)
also i watch jp's/koibu0's youtube channel where they do Dungeons & Dragons roleplay episodes every day. nonstop fantasy adventure.
theres a lot of competition for viewship as you can see. i only watch yogs/jp/dota/totalbiscuit and will go 3 weeks without seeing some of them coz theres just so much good content
- random guy who doesnt watch any streams anymore Ever noticed LoL viewership is fucking awful outside of LCS and the chosen few LCS streamer personalities? Seriously, online tournaments in that game are a fools errand. Anything independent outside of LCS and the really big offline events like IEM gets pathetic viewership. Lonestar Clash, TSMs invitationals, it's pretty bad overall. Their scene is LCS + backing band and ultimately I don't think that's going to be healthy for them in the long run. It definitely turns potential event organizers away and makes their scene far more stagnant than ours, even if LCS gets much higher viewership than anything we do. Its because the LCS is the biggest and most important LoL tournament, for not say the only anyone cares. Other organizations shouldn't waste money on making LoL tournaments most LoL players wont care about it. But is a healthy situation with all the big propaganda Riot gets for his game with a really nice production. LCS will last for a long time, its a win-win scenario for Riot and viewers. That was his point, no one cares about tournaments outside of the LCS. How you can twist that into something being healthy is a feat. There's virtually no other big sport in the world that functions that way. The bigger the sport, the more tiers of competition you get because people enjoy watching the game. LoL is the opposite of that.
Most sports in the world function that way. The focus is on one top league with smaller leagues paling in comparison to it.
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On June 01 2014 18:10 gruff wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 03:30 F1rstAssau1t wrote:On June 01 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote:On May 31 2014 23:54 FFGenerations wrote:
i dont follow either game atm but afaik sc2 viewship is pretty good (very good, some people said all-time high iirc)
and bw viewship is also stable and solid (probably increasing) since it has had a massively revived scene in korea for a long time now (huge leagues with professional production).
its hard to compare to dota because in dota people watch ingame, you might get 20k stream viewers and then 40k ingame viewers (dont quote me, but you can see the stats if you watch ingame). also dota is starting its annual league which has a prize pool of 7.5MILLION and rising (for 1 tourney) compared to 2.8 mil last year (big increase). (there are other major dota tournies like nonstop evevry day, not just the 1 big one)
LoL seems to have like 200,000 viewers per random streamer personality when i glance over , it's like its own separate league
no idea about hearthstone but i think trump still gets 20k regular. its an entertaining game to watch (i just watch tb's videos and occaisionally buy a new laptop after throwing it out the window)
no idea about HOStorm, i havent seen any promotion or talk about it tbh, but i dont go looking
minecraft (aka YOGSCAST) is probably one of the biggest games watched still. yogscast are a comedy show that roleplay in minecraft and get like 1M hits per video. and for good reason, they are brilliant (tho simon had started swearing when i last watched and it brought the quality down a substantial amount imo). i recommend their TEKKIT series as a starter (like 100+ episodes) and any YOGSLAB episodes (where they incorporate new gameplay mechanics into roleplayed events)
also i watch jp's/koibu0's youtube channel where they do Dungeons & Dragons roleplay episodes every day. nonstop fantasy adventure.
theres a lot of competition for viewship as you can see. i only watch yogs/jp/dota/totalbiscuit and will go 3 weeks without seeing some of them coz theres just so much good content
- random guy who doesnt watch any streams anymore Ever noticed LoL viewership is fucking awful outside of LCS and the chosen few LCS streamer personalities? Seriously, online tournaments in that game are a fools errand. Anything independent outside of LCS and the really big offline events like IEM gets pathetic viewership. Lonestar Clash, TSMs invitationals, it's pretty bad overall. Their scene is LCS + backing band and ultimately I don't think that's going to be healthy for them in the long run. It definitely turns potential event organizers away and makes their scene far more stagnant than ours, even if LCS gets much higher viewership than anything we do. Its because the LCS is the biggest and most important LoL tournament, for not say the only anyone cares. Other organizations shouldn't waste money on making LoL tournaments most LoL players wont care about it. But is a healthy situation with all the big propaganda Riot gets for his game with a really nice production. LCS will last for a long time, its a win-win scenario for Riot and viewers. That was his point, no one cares about tournaments outside of the LCS. How you can twist that into something being healthy is a feat. There's virtually no other big sport in the world that functions that way. The bigger the sport, the more tiers of competition you get because people enjoy watching the game. LoL is the opposite of that.
but is his point legit? with smaller and bigger stuff being hosted with shady managment and missmanagment left and right isnt it better to ve 1 group do something big but do it properly? i would take an lcs or wcs for that matter over any nasl eswc wcg stuff any day cuz u know u get quality to some degree. And if small things are managed properly it can turn out to be great (homestory cup for example) but this is the minority so far cuz most small things out there in esports turned sour pretty fast due to incompetent people trying to do stuff they are not capable off and fail miserably
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On May 31 2014 00:27 Incognoto wrote:
Is the esports bubble popping q_q ?
This after NASL.
eSports isn't exclusive to SC2. LoL and DotA 2 are doing just fine, there's no bubble popping there. It's more like ESGN was mismanaged horribly and lots of other SC2 events are dropping support because the ROI potential isn't there like it used to be. It happens in eSports, you get new games new investments, drop the outdate investments.
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On June 01 2014 22:10 Aberu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 00:27 Incognoto wrote:
Is the esports bubble popping q_q ?
This after NASL. eSports isn't exclusive to SC2. LoL and DotA 2 are doing just fine, there's no bubble popping there. It's more like ESGN was mismanaged horribly and lots of other SC2 events are dropping support because the ROI potential isn't there like it used to be. It happens in eSports, you get new games new investments, drop the outdate investments.
Which tournament has dropped SC2?
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The only thing that has changed is that StarCraft is no longer the front-runner.
Twitch (Streaming) was the game-changer for eSports and StarCraft took full advantage while other gaming scenes could not. Why? Because TL provided a well-organized platform for (those open-minded) RTS enthusiasts to gather and grow StarCraft.
Now, StarCraft growth has stagnated, declined even. This to me just means the fair-weather fans have moved on and were now left with the RTS fans who give a damn.
StarCraft is the only competitive RTS out there and I think we should stop complaining. Instead we should celebrate what we have achieved. RTS is not for everyone. StarCraft will kick your ass if you're not prepared.
The old-school RTS foreign scene was never big compared to what we have experienced in the last couple of years, but it was solid. To my knowledge, RTS is a scene where most of its fans are of drinking, college and driving age. This makes us the odd one out. Which is great! We have our place in the grand design.
It won't be easy, but nothing good ever is.
♥ (Fuck all the Naysayers) ♥
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i love this game, and this scene more than anyone. but i have to say the game isn't dying as much as it's evident the scene is. will it completely die? no not at all, never will as long as there's a loyal playerbase it will always be alive.
when people say the "scene is falling apart" i think they mean it's being watered down from what it used to be...which i'm sorry to say is super super evident and significant.
the game will stay alive, and relevant big teams will remain in place. the korean scene will also probably be around til the next RTS comes out, but yeah :\
i'm super optimistic that if they make huge changes in Legacy of the void, this game will spring back to life, big time  and sometimes i get the feeling it will!
to stay on topic though, i hope they get their financial troubles fixed up and pay the gamers what they were promised must be hard being a pro gamer when it comes to the money. gl to the organization and players! keep us posted.
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EPT
![[image loading]](http://nsa33.casimages.com/img/2014/03/19/140319123218980652.gif)
