EPTThe future of RTS games - Page 21
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Keep "my game is better than yours"-slapfights out of this. If the discussion devolves into simple bashing, this thread will be closed. | ||
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SCguineapig
Netherlands289 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 15 2014 22:51 SCguineapig wrote: i definetely think the social aspect should be improved. even though it is better then before i still face a blank screen whenever i enter a chat channel, even with a group with over 9000 members. i play sc2 alone cuz most guys on ladder get bm'ed by me and in the chat channels everyone is silent. its a hard knock life. The chat channels are silent in dota 2 and every other game where you can't sell gold. We have evolved beyond them. | ||
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ETisME
12387 Posts
On May 15 2014 22:22 Laertes wrote: The problem is the measurement of playerbase/viewership. There are a number of factors that contribute to Starbow's nicheness. *The game is too hard for the average player, Starcraft 2 does this well but because it designs to the lowest common denominator, it means the high end is comparatively worse than Broodwar. *The Starcraft 2 fanboys don't like it on principle. It got spammed on reddit or something atrociously stupid to hate on it for and now the Starcraft 2 fanboys will downvote it without even bothering to click the link or read the thread. It's disgusting and skews how popular starbow could be. *The lines are drawn in the sand. People think its one or the other, but Starbow could be a great game to play alongside SC2. You can watch starbow when its on and it doesn't mean you are abandoning SC2 or anything like that. If we got a major tournament for Starbow with lots of pro players and a huge prize pool it could draw lots of viewership, as long as its the biggest thing going on at the time. Ultimately there are more but these are the few that really impact things. As far as I know, Artosis and tasteless streaming starbow made it to front page of the starcraft reddit, I don't see it being that hated, it just failed to make enough to actually make a switch or even try it out and stay because they like it. How would you explain starbow reddit being pretty empty then? Or even the starbow tl thread is heavily bumped in order to stay in front page. Like I said, the game already received some of the biggest support a mod can ever hope for. Starbow already has its invitational, showmatch and ladder cups. You can't blame the lack of growth for lack of tournament content either. You have innovation and impact who both are in spot light of gsl, how big of an exposure is that. You have basetradetv who can take a few hundreds or thousand viewers even when khaldor is casting. I tend to think people will choose how to spend their time most efficiently for them and that's how it worked for lol and dota. Some would play both and some would play one or another. But it isn't stopping starbow to grow either. It only makes starbow more of a competition to sc2. I don't want to talk about this anymore anyway, it's only a minor example of my point and going to derail the thread. My point was that there seems to be lacking in a demand for an alternative basic old school rts other than sc2 in the market. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
There was a lot of game in BW where it was like no rush 20minutes. That's why Flash was considered a boring player at some point. Actually flash was known for being cheesey when he first came onto the scene but BW games do have downtime but when the action starts it rarely stops lol That is also my point that the fights and battles are amazing because the players are not afraid to engage each other in BW and in 90% of the situations that occur its not a game ending battle but more or less a war of attrition. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 15 2014 23:19 FFW_Rude wrote: Obviously i wasn't talking about his debuts. And you can't compare the two games. It's not the same thing. A little group of unit could be REALLY effective in BW because of the mecanics. You don't see ONE hellion killing 20drones like a vulture would have. Different game, different time  An era of tiny scenes 640x480 graphics and units that took up a lot of space on the screen. One of the parts that people forget about SC2 is how much smaller all the units are relative to the amount of scene space. RTS games will come back and there will be good ones. People just need to give it time and be open to new gameplay styles. Trying to recreate the games of old is not the route to commercial success for any company. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
SC2 if you were to do that same graph of development it would hit the 6-9 min mark and SPIKE HARD. You get less gameplay out of most sc2 games then you do BW/MOBA games which makes it feel less rewarding and have less depth. If you are trying to meet sc2 to almost moba as the OP has explained he tried to do you have to make the game develop more linear like a MOBA and make the game action packed and more of a war of attrition then My 200 / 200 army rolls yours over GG. EDIT: I do not wish for a SC2 vs BW discussion either that ship has sailed crashed and tried to sail again many times lol | ||
Falling
Canada11349 Posts
On May 15 2014 23:05 Plansix wrote: The chat channels are silent in dota 2 and every other game where you can't sell gold. We have evolved beyond them. I highly doubt that. Poor design would lead to empty/ silent channels just as easily as 'evolving beyond them.' It all depends on how you implement chat channels. Are they an optional back-room that you can ignore? Or are chat channels the default hub that you go to and from games? That makes all the difference in the world. No idea what Dota 2 looks like, but LoL channel design is no better than SC2 in this regard. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
It all depends on how you implement chat channels. Are they an optional back-room that you can ignore? Or is the default menu, a chat channel that you go to and from games? That makes all the difference in the world. No idea what Dota 2 looks like, but LoL channels are no better than SC2 in this regard. This is extremely true .... Most of the time SC2 channels are better atleast in my experience | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 15 2014 23:35 Falling wrote: I highly doubt that. Poor design would lead to empty/ silent channels just as easily as 'evolving beyond them.' It all depends on how you implement chat channels. Are they an optional back-room that you can ignore? Or is the default menu, a chat channel that you go to and from games? That makes all the difference in the world. No idea what Dota 2 looks like, but LoL channels are no better than SC2 in this regard. They are all the same. LOL doesn't have them. Dawn of war 2 had them when you booted and they are kind of trash. Chat rooms or "general chat" are the YouTube comments of the video game world. There are gems that are very good, but the majority you can just put on mute. Social features like chat are only as good as the people using them. They are not some silver bullet to make an active community or something that you can say "if we had this, everyone would talk to eachother." With 1000 other ways to communicate, players don't need to use chat rooms and often don't. There is no reason to believe that if we all were forced to join a general chat when we started SC2 that it would be just like twitch chat. If it was there, a lot of people would want the option to turn it off. | ||
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Falling
Canada11349 Posts
I'm quite sure you could design a chat channel hub system that encouraged socializing by default, but personalization could allow you to opt to whatever extent you wanted. Even if iccup is quiter these days, it is still fun hanging out in op TL joining in race wars and the like. They might not 'need' it. But in many cases they may not know what they are missing until they experienced it. (I was pretty ambivalent towards channels, back in the whole Blizzard 'but do you really want chat channels', btw. But I have since come around.) | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
I am sure it could be done, but I don't think the effort would be worth it. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 15 2014 23:57 Big J wrote: Hearthstone has the best chatting experience for me. But sure, without chats the huge majority of BMing people wouldnt have a place to do so and may quit. It's so true. If SC2 had that it would be awsome. So many people would be pissed, but I wouldn't care at all. | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
Anyway, on topic of RTS. I think that, even though MoBAs are a ton more popular, the RTS community is still big enough to turn a profit if catered too. SC2 sold tons and still has a huge user base. The only issue is giving it more staying power in my opinion. The gameplay just needs to be good enough, engaging and satisfying to keep players coming back and keep the user base thriving. | ||
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HeatEXTEND
Netherlands836 Posts
On May 14 2014 05:01 urboss wrote: snp Have you by any chance played Dawn of war 2 ? The last CnC game ? Isn't BW's legacy suffering enough as is ? Please. | ||
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InVerno
258 Posts
On May 15 2014 21:10 ETisME wrote: Why do you think blizzard does not understand him? Let's take an example of people introducing Classical music to you, and you dislike classical, you think it is slow, it needs more beats and no vocal whatever. Is it a problem of the composer then? Do you think the composer doesn't know it doesn't have bears or vocal and slow? Obviously not. People keep mistakenly label what they dislike about something that actually feature of the game, as flaw/bad points. saying he doesn't understand it is right because he just doesn't get what's good about it. Is it that person's fault? No because everyone has different unique taste. there is no right or wrong here. this isn't something that you can use some standard and point out the product is non-conformancing. RTS isn't classical music, is rihanna, a mass product of entertainment made to reach the most huge playerbase possible and sell the most possible copies. Achievement unlocked? Well, look at the name of this thread. What happens if rihanna sells less than a spanish caballero singer? we'll tell ourself "rihanna is niche" ? Because when a lot of mens "have different unique tastes" and these tastes doesn't match the product, we're not discussing about the personal freedom to have our tastes, we're discussing about a commercial product with a reduced audience from the real goal, sell and sell a lot. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16694 Posts
On May 15 2014 23:28 Plansix wrote: An era of tiny scenes 640x480 graphics and units that took up a lot of space on the screen. One of the parts that people forget about SC2 is how much smaller all the units are relative to the amount of scene space. RTS games will come back and there will be good ones. People just need to give it time and be open to new gameplay styles. Trying to recreate the games of old is not the route to commercial success for any company. The Strategy genre will always be around. So RTS games, as a sub-genre, will live in on some form or another and RTS games of some form will continue to be made on a much smaller scale than SC2 or C&C3. SC2 is the final AAA level release for the once dominant genre. no one, even Mike Morhaime, can justify the investment required to make a AAA level of game. the entire keyboard/mouse input paradigm is going the way of the dinosaur and RTS games outside this input method don't work. nothing wrong with playing the old great titles like RA2, Brood War, etc etc. the genre is slowly dying as its player-base ages and gets into more serious life commitments. but , i say, who cares.. just enjoy the RTS games today and for the next few years. | ||
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frajen86
168 Posts
On May 16 2014 00:37 Destructicon wrote:...the RTS community is still big enough to turn a profit if catered too. SC2 sold tons and still has a huge user base. yup http://bit.ly/1qFZgQz - Activision Blizzard earnings report from Q4 2013. Page 3: "For the calendar year in North America, Blizzard Entertainment’s StarCraft® II: Heart of the Swarm ® was the #1 best-selling PC game." | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25109 Posts
Anyway, looking at other titles it really throws into focus how good Blizzard are at the art and design side of things, Starcraft and Warcraft units have so much more variety and character. Credit where credit is due Blizzard make cool shit | ||
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