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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On April 07 2014 18:00 TheWisp wrote: why is supply yellow ? I can understand blue / green for mineral / gas but this .. Suggest other color? This is just concept, not alpha of new UI, not a screenshot from SC2 UI 2.0, nothing final or pre-final. This is just concept. All colors can be different, other positions (i.e. UI on right side, movable, etc). Thats your imagination  | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
The resources and supply are supposed to be on the opposite corner of the screen as the minimap. This is all wrong. Starcraft isn't better like this. Making Starcraft 2 more like C&C is a dishonour to the memory of Broodwar. The UI that we enjoy in SC2 is similar enough to SC/BW (in layout) and has improved functionality (MBS, larger group selection, etc). If that's not enough, then I don't know... Maybe, go play C&C. SC2 has been dumbed down quite enough. + Show Spoiler + I don't get why people want this game to be such a mash-up of so many of the concepts from shittier games. If SC2 is going downhill it isn't because of its classic UI, it's because of flaky users who'd rather be playing other games, and there's nothing that Blizzard should do to appease them. They'll eventually move on. SC2 isn't going to have some crazy influx of players with staying power all of a sudden, just because of customizable UI; Christ, the free arcade thing barely more got people playing... As long as Blizzard delivers an expansion that isn't shit, most of us are perfectly fine. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3692 Posts
I'd much rather see an interface that only displayed minimap + the thing that shows you what is selected + supply etc. + gametimer. That one would increase viewable space and actually improve on the fact that SC2's UI covers up way too much space. | ||
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Redrot
United States446 Posts
I personally don't like it one bit but it still looks pretty good. Nice concept. The UI would have to stay constant for ladder in order to keep the game fair so I don't see any change in UI happening ever. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On April 08 2014 04:03 dUTtrOACh wrote: I always disliked the UI of C&C, so not liking this goes without saying. The resources and supply are supposed to be on the opposite corner of the screen as the minimap. This is all wrong. Starcraft isn't better like this. Making Starcraft 2 more like C&C is a dishonour to the memory of Broodwar. The UI that we enjoy in SC2 is similar enough to SC/BW (in layout) and has improved functionality (MBS, larger group selection, etc). If that's not enough, then I don't know... Maybe, go play C&C. SC2 has been dumbed down quite enough. + Show Spoiler + I don't get why people want this game to be such a mash-up of so many of the concepts from shittier games. If SC2 is going downhill it isn't because of its classic UI, it's because of flaky users who'd rather be playing other games, and there's nothing that Blizzard should do to appease them. They'll eventually move on. SC2 isn't going to have some crazy influx of players with staying power all of a sudden, just because of customizable UI; Christ, the free arcade thing barely more got people playing... As long as Blizzard delivers an expansion that isn't shit, most of us are perfectly fine. Resources and minimap are not supposed nor dissaposed to be on opposite corners of screen. Both have pros and cons. First of all - many players are more familliar with current SC2 layout since they're playing StarCraft and StarCraft 2 for such long time, so they will not be able and don't want to adopt to something different. It's like black and white chess board for them, that can't be red and green for example. I understand that. But on other side, there are some points and reasons behind C&C interface, which was better in some cases. One of these reasons - unnecessary eye jumps between minimap, unit costs and resources (or minimap/resources only for pro-players). This is alternate variant that tries to improve this moment. Second one is that many C&C, that are playing StarCraft 2 right now, will be glad to have some sort of customization, since not everyone thinkgs that bottombar is good and that current UI is ideal. Most of us just accepted and adopted to what we have now and had in BroodWar. But I want to remember you, that BroodWar was not developed as CyberSport game, it had weird interface, ugly controlling mechanic and some other not so ideal things. This ca turn into long debate about SC vs C&C and I think, it's not need to start discuss in this area again, since both games had some good and bad stuff. Just C&C got bad developers and not so good situation with Electronic Arts, but this thread is not about them or C&C at all. In this thread you can see just a CONCEPT, imagination through pixels and photoshop, and nothing more. This is not a candidate to UI Contest for StarCraft 2, this is not a fake-teaser of next content patch for SC2 with overhauled UI, and this is not something real. This is just discussion about "What if it can look differently? What if SC2 looked like this instead of that? Does it solves current problems or good ideas and/or does it adds new ones?" And please, stop defence SC2 like I'm a new senior/UI/etc designer, that came to the game and teasering you what I will do next patch. Lets discuss it in more constructive and positive tone | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Having a widescreen as opposed to a square screen is much better for the player as it allows them to see much more of what is going on. This is probably the only large disadvantage to the UI though (oh, and the fact that it won't happen). I personally don't like it one bit but it still looks pretty good. Nice concept. The UI would have to stay constant for ladder in order to keep the game fair so I don't see any change in UI happening ever. Best case is a corner-UI, which was in Battle for Middle Earth. The most compact and smallest UI with buttons and unit portrait/data nearby. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ih1U8gu.jpg) This corner-UI is just ideal for me. It solves all the problems for both - bottombad and sidebar at same time. No more unused black spaces, no square screen and no problem with positioning minimap and getting advantage from it, since it covers exactly same space on screen no matter where it is located - top right or bottom left. Also most MOBA players will be able to put minimap in "their" corner - bottom right. So imagine that SC2 will improve even more some time in future, someone from MOBAs will retire / switch / try to RTS like SC2, and woah, there is an ability to put minimap like they had before. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On April 08 2014 04:29 maartendq wrote: I don't want to imagine the amount of downtime we'd get in tournaments if players were allowed to customise the UI to their liking. Ehm, you're thinking in a strange direction. 1. Tournaments can disable these custom UIs, if these UIs will be implemented to the game at all. 2. Pro players can configure and adopt to their own UIs long time before tournament happens. It's like customized hotkeys, keyboard, mouse or graphic settings. 3. There can be premade UI with different layouts, so not much customization and these UIs can be balanced between eachother in terms of vision, and other stuff. 4. Many players don't look at UI at all, except minimap and resource tikers. They don't need command card with Move / Hold / Stop buttons, they already mechanically memorized all the hotkeys for each unit, spell or command. 5. UI can be improved in some way. Instead Shift-clicking on unit icon on the UI to remove it from selection, just right-click on that unit icon without holding any aditional keys. Or allow Windows-selection, i.e. holding Ctrl and squaring units will deselect them, like you're deselecting folders and files. 6. Select army button was already implemented. Whats wrong can be with implementing buttons like "Select army on screen", "Select same unit type" instead of double or ctrl clicking on unit? Sc2 was improved since SC1, so what's the problem to further improve SC2? MOBAs are on improvement route too: Dota, Lol, Heroes of the Storm, Infinite Crisis... remember how it began? There were no replays, no streams inside the game, no custom skins (and I believe everyone SCREAMED that custom skins will ruin the game because of unreadability of each hero that will look differently). | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
On April 08 2014 04:21 Existor wrote: Resources and minimap are not supposed nor dissaposed to be on opposite corners of screen. Both have pros and cons. First of all - many players are more familliar with current SC2 layout since they're playing StarCraft and StarCraft 2 for such long time, so they will not be able and don't want to adopt to something different. It's like black and white chess board for them, that can't be red and green for example. I understand that. But on other side, there are some points and reasons behind C&C interface, which was better in some cases. One of these reasons - unnecessary eye jumps between minimap, unit costs and resources (or minimap/resources only for pro-players). This is alternate variant that tries to improve this moment. Second one is that many C&C, that are playing StarCraft 2 right now, will be glad to have some sort of customization, since not everyone thinkgs that bottombar is good and that current UI is ideal. Most of us just accepted and adopted to what we have now and had in BroodWar. But I want to remember you, that BroodWar was not developed as CyberSport game, it had weird interface, ugly controlling mechanic and some other not so ideal things. This ca turn into long debate about SC vs C&C and I think, it's not need to start discuss in this area again, since both games had some good and bad stuff. Just C&C got bad developers and not so good situation with Electronic Arts, but this thread is not about them or C&C at all. In this thread you can see just a CONCEPT, imagination through pixels and photoshop, and nothing more. This is not a candidate to UI Contest for StarCraft 2, this is not a fake-teaser of next content patch for SC2 with overhauled UI, and this is not something real. This is just discussion about "What if it can look differently? What if SC2 looked like this instead of that? Does it solves current problems or good ideas and/or does it adds new ones?" And please, stop defence SC2 like I'm a new senior/UI/etc designer, that came to the game and teasering you what I will do next patch. Lets discuss it in more constructive and positive tone Yes, I fully understand that it's a concept. No, the resources and supply are supposed to be on opposite corners. That's the way Starcraft is. It is intentionally difficult to manage map-awareness and resource management. That one simple thing is a major factor in why the SC2 UI is so similar to SC/BW. It's proven to be more challenging to the player to not be able to get all your information from one corner of the screen. Everything that creates a higher skill ceiling in this game is good, because Blizzard has lowered the ceiling significantly in many other aspects. It's not that EA has shit developers and Blizzard doesn't. Both companies have people with good ideas and bad ideas. If anyone is moving in a worse direction, I feel it's Blizzard. That's another discussion entirely. I understand you're playing an imagination card. So am I. Imagine we get a bunch of superficial changes next expansion, that only make a few people happy, while the quality of the game itself suffers as a result of the time it takes to make all these pointless changes. I'm not defending the game to you like you work for Blizzard. I'm fully aware that you're just... some... guy... I'm actually asking you to consider why Blizzard made Starcraft 2 more like Starcraft 1 than any other RTS. It's not because they're lazy; it's because Starcraft 1 is fucking awesome, and because history will always hold it in higher regard than Command & Conquer. I really do understand the difference between a concept and an implemented or even prototype change. I also know the difference between a positive tone and a negative one. If you expect criticism to come gift-wrapped in marshmallows with sugar-kisses, then I'm sorry, but this is about as positive as my criticism gets. a). The C&C UI is outdated, overly simplistic, and ugly. There is a certain distasteful asymmetry to it that I can't overlook. It feels like an overlay or pause menu rather than a dashboard / console. b). This UI "concept" as you call it isn't actually your "concept". You took another UI and super-imposed the artistic style and UI elements from SC2 into it. A "concept" is more original than this. I can think of much more negative words than concept, but let's just say this idea is borrowed. c). I don't need to defend Starcraft 2 from you. I only feel like you need to consider the repercussions of a community that wastes energy on fluff, when what this game needs is some meaty ideas that actually make it better, ideas that make it stand even further above all other RTS. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
One neat thing about SC2/BW's UI is how often the mouse fluidly moves in triangular shapes. Take a common action: box selecting a bunch of units and moving them somewhere far way. With the standard boxing motion and minimap location players will make the following triangle: middle-ish/top-left -> bottom-right to box units -> bottom-left to minimap* -> middle to select new units/issue new action/whatever. *either moving camera or issuing movement command against minimap The proposed UI would still have triangles for something like selecting units -> moving them, but it still has the up/down problem. Notably with the current UI the change in direction when boxing -> going to minimap is left/right change which is a far more controlled and quicker and easier change than changing from going down -> up. With the current UI you have the advantage of making motions more like down-right -> straight left-> up-right which is much more controlled than what you'd get with going from down-right -> up-right. Anyways the point is you need to think about player motions more so than what looks pretty. Coming to a full stop and reversing direction, the differences in a player's ability to control in different directions, and what larger motions they'll be making should all be the forefront of a UI design for something as fast paced as an RTS. | ||
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
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TheFish7
United States2824 Posts
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
On April 08 2014 05:16 TheFish7 wrote: I would not be opposed to completely customizable UI's, similar to WoW. I do believe this is allowed in WoW arenas? I could see it potentially opening the door for exploits/hacks, which might be a problem, but it would be cool to pick your own UI- I think I would like something more like Warcraft2 with the resources closer to the minimap. At the same time, the default UI for WoW is clunky as hell. Anybody using it in a competitive environment (even if it's just BGs or arenas) is at a disadvantage against players. We don't really have that problem with the SC2 UI... honestly, for the way it works, SC2's default UI is pretty damn close to perfect. I have no objection to variations of the UI in customs. Hell, if a mod like a Starbow or whatever becomes popular and has a radically different UI to SC2's SC/BW, then power to the creator(s) of the mod. As long as Blizzard is facilitating content creators, accepting the fact that we all ladder on even terms is legit. | ||
Falling
Canada11522 Posts
On April 08 2014 04:27 Existor wrote: Also what do you think about health-bars? I'm a fan of changing the healthbars to below and have been for some time: + Show Spoiler + On March 26 2012 08:27 Falling wrote: Yes! Someone else did the work I was going to try to do. To me it's becomes the Battle of the Health Bars and it's a Blizzard design issue. Take a look at the difference: Current ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GYcsk.jpg) Potential ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GnvyA.jpg) Now you could tweak it a bit because I think the second one is a little too hard to see with the workers' healthbars, but I think it's the right idea. Taken from here: http://sc2pod.com/trackers/blue/starcraft-2/?id=4199 See the problem is any army with depth, the overlap that you see is just more healthbars where the actual unit is hidden. This is further exacerbated with unit clumping. I think it also has to do with our tendency (at least in English) to read from the top of the page to the bottom. I'm pretty sure we perceive what's on top before what's on bottom. With it on top, it just looks way too busy and it's hard to register the individual parts you are seeing as it just becomes a mass of green, yellow, and red lights, combined with attack animation. Of all the things to change, this I think is the biggest bang for your buck. It would immediately clear the screen of noise so you could see the actual units. This would allow viewers to parse what they are seeing with some hope of comprehending what is going on. I know hardcore fans want healthbars on all the time. But it's the visual equivalent of having a stream of background numbers flashing like a bunch of christmas lights in the centre of the screen. The wrong thing dominates, whereas having the healthbars underneath, subordinates the healthbar (especially if you read top to bottom) because it is overlapping units, not overlapping healthbars that you see. Basically healthbars on top clutters the screen and I don't think SC2 is as easy to view casually as people have assumed- one reason for it being healthbars above. | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
Despite them being a little small for my liking (mostly for the buildings - perhaps thicker bars on buildings and thumbs up), that really does look a lot better with the bars underneath. | ||
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Waise
3165 Posts
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Falling
Canada11522 Posts
On April 08 2014 05:52 dUTtrOACh wrote: ^^^ Despite them being a little small for my liking (mostly for the buildings - perhaps thicker bars on buildings and thumbs up), that really does look a lot better with the bars underneath. Yeah, the bars are a bit too thin. But I think the principle of it is understandable. | ||
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