• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:07
CEST 02:07
KST 09:07
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S Season 1 - RO8 Preview5[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Progenitors8Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A: Rogue, Percival, Solar, Zoun13[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Inheritors16[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt2: All Star10
Community News
Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule !7Weekly Cups (April 27-May 4): Clem takes triple0RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event12Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO12 Results12026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers25
StarCraft 2
General
Code S Season 1 - RO8 Preview Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book Weekly Cups (April 27-May 4): Clem takes triple Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO12 Results
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! GSL Code S Season 1 (2026) RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players
External Content
Mutation # 524 Death and Taxes The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 523 Firewall Mutation # 522 Flip My Base
Brood War
General
Why there arent any 256x256 pro maps? Quality of life changes in BW that you will like ? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ RepMastered™: replay sharing and analyzer site Tulbo's ASL S21 Ro8 Post-Review
Tourneys
[ASL21] Ro8 Day 4 [ASL21] Ro8 Day 3 Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Daigo vs Menard Best of 10 Path of Exile OutLive 25 (RTS Game)
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread The Letting Off Steam Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
streaming software Strange computer issues (software) [G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
How EEG Data Can Predict Gam…
TrAiDoS
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1910 users

Report: 70 million people watch esports worldwide

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Normal
Slasher
Profile Joined September 2007
United States1095 Posts
April 02 2014 19:17 GMT
#1
http://www.ongamers.com/articles/report-more-than-70-million-people-watch-esports-worldwide/1100-1157/

Super Data Research and Newzoo have put out a report stating that viewership across all eSports titles has doubled within the last year, peaking to over 71 million by the end of 2013. Almost half of those viewers, 31.4 million, come from the United States where males account for 70% of frequent viewers and participants. The report find that the majority of U.S. viewers are males between 21 and 34 years old. The average eSports viewer watches 19 times a month, with a session length of 2.2 hours.

Images and graphs can be found in the link above.

I reached out to Twitch, Riot, etc for confirmation on these numbers. Twitch had no concerns on what is shown here.
Zenbrez
Profile Joined June 2012
Canada5973 Posts
April 02 2014 19:19 GMT
#2
If that's accurate, almost 10% of the US watches then
Refer to my post.
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
April 02 2014 19:26 GMT
#3
those are some good and scary numbers lol. $590M in 2015 for WoTs though, surprising.
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
ZAiNs
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom6525 Posts
April 02 2014 19:28 GMT
#4
On April 03 2014 04:26 BigFan wrote:
those are some good and scary numbers lol. $590M in 2015 for WoTs though, surprising.

Unfortunately as things get bigger game quality takes a back-seat to microtransactions .
teddyoojo
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Germany22369 Posts
April 02 2014 19:35 GMT
#5
thats why fuck esports yo
Esports historian since 2000. Creator of 'The Universe' and 'The best scrambled Eggs 2013'. Host of 'Star Wars Marathon 2015'. Thinker of 'teddyoojo's Thoughts'. Earths and Moons leading CS:GO expert. Lord of the Rings.
Canucklehead
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada5074 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-02 19:36:17
April 02 2014 19:35 GMT
#6
One thing I never understand about all these viewing stats released be it from here or from twitch themselves is how come we don't see more concurrent viewers on twitch at any time of the day? If 10s of millions of people are watching esports, shouldn't twitch have at least a million concurrent viewers at least once during the day every day?

Like if you look at twitch right now for all channels I don't think it adds up to 1m concurrent viewers. Also, there was the xbox one streaming stats released the other day, which made it sound amazing and that there were tons of people streaming on the xbox one.

If you look at it now, the top xbox one top channel has 94 viewers. I know sometimes an xbox one stream can have thousands of viewers, but that's only a handful of channels. Unless, the ratio b/w concurrent viewers and people who just tune into a stream for a minute and leave is way different than I think.

Like take this article. It says twitch gets 45m unique viewers per month and 900,000 unique broadcasters per month. Does that mean there are like 899,000 1 viewer channels because I don't see anywhere close to 900,000 channels on twitch.

http://www.usgamer.net/articles/twitch-viewers-more-than-double-to-45-million-in-2013

In 2013, Twitch reached 45 million unique viewers and more than 900,000 unique broadcasters per month, up from 20 million viewers and 300,000 broadcasters in 2012. The service has already surpassed those numbers in 2014, with a million unique broadcasters this month. Users are watching 12 billion minutes of video per month, with the average user watching 106 minutes of content per day.
Top 10 favourite pros: MKP, MVP, MC, Nestea, DRG, Jaedong, Flash, Life, Creator, Leenock
TheBloodyDwarf
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
Finland7524 Posts
April 02 2014 19:39 GMT
#7
Is this avarage viewers? concurrent viewers? How do you define 'viewer'?....
Fusilero: "I still can't believe he did that, like dude what the fuck there's fandom and then there's what he did like holy shit. I still see it when I close my eyes." <- reaction to the original drunk santa post which later caught on
EJK
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
United States1302 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-02 20:00:03
April 02 2014 19:59 GMT
#8
if i have read the report correctly, I believe "esports" means all console games as well, so that's where the other millions of people are coming from

On April 03 2014 04:19 Zenbrez wrote:
If that's accurate, almost 10% of the US watches then


If you imagine every kid who plays on an xbox which would count as "participating in an esport", then ya easily 10% of the US is active in esports
Sc2 Terran Coach, top 16GM NA - interested in coaching? Message me on teamliquid!
mrRoflpwn
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States2618 Posts
April 02 2014 20:07 GMT
#9
Yep bullshit. how many actual unique viewers? Probably around 5 million I would say across all games.
Long live the Boss Toss!
nkr
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Sweden5451 Posts
April 02 2014 20:11 GMT
#10
all it means is that 71 million people have clicked on an esports stream in the year of 2013, which isn't that surprising ;p
ESPORTS ILLUMINATI
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
April 02 2014 20:22 GMT
#11
On April 03 2014 05:07 mrRoflpwn wrote:
Yep bullshit. how many actual unique viewers? Probably around 5 million I would say across all games.

Certainly more than that, though not near 70m
AdministratorBreak the chains
Integra
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Sweden5626 Posts
April 02 2014 20:31 GMT
#12
so roughly 10% of the US population watches Esports?
Late April's fools?
"Dark Pleasure" | | I survived the Locust war of May 3, 2014
Waise
Profile Joined June 2013
3165 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-02 20:35:24
April 02 2014 20:33 GMT
#13
yeah there are a lot of questions to be asked about these numbers. like, the "average esports viewer" watching 19 times a month doesn't mean much if 9 out of 10 people just watched a single league of legends game and the tenth person watched 180 starcraft games. i probably watch one or two hundred SC games in a month...

i mean, i'm not just out to naysay the statistics, but common sense says they're pretty obviously vague and presented in a way that's intentionally flattering to the industry...
udgnim
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8024 Posts
April 02 2014 20:35 GMT
#14
The average eSports viewer watches 19 times a month, with a session length of 2.2 hours.


I don't think I've ever come close to 19 sessions of 2.2 hours of esports within a month

watching twitch streams sure

watching esports streams, no where close to that
E-Sports is competitive video gaming with a spectator fan base. Do not take the word "Sports" literally.
KiF1rE
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States964 Posts
April 02 2014 20:47 GMT
#15
On April 03 2014 05:35 udgnim wrote:
Show nested quote +
The average eSports viewer watches 19 times a month, with a session length of 2.2 hours.


I don't think I've ever come close to 19 sessions of 2.2 hours of esports within a month

watching twitch streams sure

watching esports streams, no where close to that


thats the big thing that bothers me with this. Esports streams do not equal say watching someone ladder or play custom arcade games. Esports streams to me are competitions basically, like IEM,MLG,LCS,WCS.

And even as a avid competitor and watcher of esports... the average viewer is 19 sessions of 2.2 hours a month? I barely match that between WCS and stuff. as there is hardly that much esports events going on.... to even have 19 sessions for me lol.
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
April 02 2014 20:53 GMT
#16
America sure is bad at esports for the amount we watch it.
Moderator
EJK
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
United States1302 Posts
April 02 2014 20:57 GMT
#17
ESPORTS INCLUDES CONSOLE GAMES LIKE CALL OF DUTY.

It is not just subjected to league of legends, dota2, and sc2 and other PC games, but also console games (makes a lot more sense when you add up the console games statistics, 95% high schoolers play games on a console and that is considered participating in esports.
Sc2 Terran Coach, top 16GM NA - interested in coaching? Message me on teamliquid!
-Jacob-
Profile Joined November 2010
358 Posts
April 02 2014 21:00 GMT
#18
On April 03 2014 05:53 stuchiu wrote:
America sure is bad at esports for the amount we watch it.


Thats why we are so bad. We spend more time watching then actually practicing.
Rawr
Micro_Jackson
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany2002 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-02 21:04:48
April 02 2014 21:03 GMT
#19
Little rant incoming, please correct me if i miss something:

So thats whats called "research" these days? Great.

The document (again correct me if i am missing something) conaints 7(!) pages with the first beeing a big picture and the last is kinda useless. Also the graphs are horrible from a "scientific" standpoint but thats not that bad in the big picuture.

Were i come to the "sources".
First the not so bad one: "Attendance and viewing data are the results of a survey conducted by SuperData, consisting of 1,080 qualified U.S. respondents."
So is this representative? What is a "qualified U.S. respondents"? In which period of time was the data collected? What is "watch every day"? Have i look at the screen or is keeping it on enough.

Which comes to the worst thing "Data provided by Twitch.tv."
Its like asking Kim Jong Un wether people like his country or not. Or a bit less harsh how many players a MMO has. Data from that source is as positive as possible at best, or, at worst, just a plain lie.

No offense to anybody it would be great if it would be 100% true but i bloddy hate researches like this.
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
April 02 2014 21:04 GMT
#20
Data provided by Newzoo. Enthusiasts are defined as frequest eSports viewers and eSports participants


It's just a bad report that hides actual data because they want to hype up the industry they're part of.
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
April 03 2014 16:16 GMT
#21
On April 03 2014 06:04 Derez wrote:
Show nested quote +
Data provided by Newzoo. Enthusiasts are defined as frequest eSports viewers and eSports participants


It's just a bad report that hides actual data because they want to hype up the industry they're part of.


You can divide the numbers by 5-10 to get closer to the truth and they would still be fairly impressive relative to five years ago. That said, I agree.
AdministratorBreak the chains
Lorch
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany3692 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-03 16:37:42
April 03 2014 16:33 GMT
#22
On April 03 2014 04:28 ZAiNs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 03 2014 04:26 BigFan wrote:
those are some good and scary numbers lol. $590M in 2015 for WoTs though, surprising.

Unfortunately as things get bigger game quality takes a back-seat to microtransactions .


Game quality has been taking a back-seat since Unreal Tournament has come out. UT is "easier" than Quake, CS is "easier" than UT and CoD tried to create the easiest game possible. Just as Warcraft 3 was an "easier" version of BW which then led to MOBAs which then led to the "easy" LoL. Almost all genres have been continuously made easier over the past decade and nothing about that will change anytime soon.

OT: I highly doubt these numbers are all that accurate, same as the numbers Riot releases, or MLG releases, are semi-bs. Still the fact remains that the eSports Industry is continuing to grow and that should be celebrated!
Waise
Profile Joined June 2013
3165 Posts
April 03 2014 16:51 GMT
#23
On April 04 2014 01:33 Lorch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 03 2014 04:28 ZAiNs wrote:
On April 03 2014 04:26 BigFan wrote:
those are some good and scary numbers lol. $590M in 2015 for WoTs though, surprising.

Unfortunately as things get bigger game quality takes a back-seat to microtransactions .


Game quality has been taking a back-seat since Unreal Tournament has come out. UT is "easier" than Quake, CS is "easier" than UT and CoD tried to create the easiest game possible. Just as Warcraft 3 was an "easier" version of BW which then led to MOBAs which then led to the "easy" LoL. Almost all genres have been continuously made easier over the past decade and nothing about that will change anytime soon.

which is because video games have become more popular among crowds of people who enjoy gaming as a casual and noncompetitive hobby and doesn't in any way represent some sort of "decay" as geeky self-obsessed elitists want to have you believe. SC2 is still healthy and playable at a competitive level both for pros and amateurs, so there's no excuse for whining that more and more people are becoming interested in games considered "easier" or somehow "inferior" other than wanting to exalt yourself over something as meaningless as video game "skills"
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 03 2014 16:56 GMT
#24
On April 04 2014 01:51 Waise wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2014 01:33 Lorch wrote:
On April 03 2014 04:28 ZAiNs wrote:
On April 03 2014 04:26 BigFan wrote:
those are some good and scary numbers lol. $590M in 2015 for WoTs though, surprising.

Unfortunately as things get bigger game quality takes a back-seat to microtransactions .


Game quality has been taking a back-seat since Unreal Tournament has come out. UT is "easier" than Quake, CS is "easier" than UT and CoD tried to create the easiest game possible. Just as Warcraft 3 was an "easier" version of BW which then led to MOBAs which then led to the "easy" LoL. Almost all genres have been continuously made easier over the past decade and nothing about that will change anytime soon.

which is because video games have become more popular among crowds of people who enjoy gaming as a casual and noncompetitive hobby and doesn't in any way represent some sort of "decay" as geeky self-obsessed elitists want to have you believe. SC2 is still healthy and playable at a competitive level both for pros and amateurs, so there's no excuse for whining that more and more people are becoming interested in games considered "easier" or somehow "inferior" other than wanting to exalt yourself over something as meaningless as video game "skills"

Agreed. People are obsessed with dividing the gaming communities into little tribes of increasingly hardcore players, each one claiming that their game is the most hardest core. And people confuse games in inaccessible walls of shit with being "deep" and "not for casuals". But elitism is nothing new on the Internet.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
April 03 2014 17:03 GMT
#25
^ Why you attack him? Is he wrong?
sorry for dem one liners
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 03 2014 17:09 GMT
#26
On April 04 2014 02:03 NukeD wrote:
^ Why you attack him? Is he wrong?

I wasn't, that's why I said agreed. Are you confused?
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Butterednuts
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States859 Posts
April 03 2014 17:47 GMT
#27
All of these viewer numbers are so artificially inflated that I don't dare believe them for even a second.
Chameleons Cast No Shadows
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
April 03 2014 17:57 GMT
#28
On April 04 2014 02:09 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2014 02:03 NukeD wrote:
^ Why you attack him? Is he wrong?

I wasn't, that's why I said agreed. Are you confused?

I meant the guy he quotted.
sorry for dem one liners
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 03 2014 18:23 GMT
#29
On April 04 2014 02:57 NukeD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2014 02:09 Plansix wrote:
On April 04 2014 02:03 NukeD wrote:
^ Why you attack him? Is he wrong?

I wasn't, that's why I said agreed. Are you confused?

I meant the guy he quotted.

Oh, because that is fucking stupid and just people just claim their game is more hardcore and requires more "skill" so they can be elitest. No one claims that archery is harder than gold or sailing is harder then running a marathon. It's Internet try hards flexing their e muscles and saying "do you even lift bro?"
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
April 03 2014 18:46 GMT
#30
The only problem with his post in my opinion is where he apparently equalls the quallity of games depending on how "easy" they are. That is stupid. I do however agree with him that the quallity of games is diminshing as years pass, while the games being easy/hard themselves is a non factor and I couldnt care less about it.
sorry for dem one liners
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
April 03 2014 19:11 GMT
#31
On April 04 2014 03:23 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2014 02:57 NukeD wrote:
On April 04 2014 02:09 Plansix wrote:
On April 04 2014 02:03 NukeD wrote:
^ Why you attack him? Is he wrong?

I wasn't, that's why I said agreed. Are you confused?

I meant the guy he quotted.

Oh, because that is fucking stupid and just people just claim their game is more hardcore and requires more "skill" so they can be elitest. No one claims that archery is harder than gold or sailing is harder then running a marathon. It's Internet try hards flexing their e muscles and saying "do you even lift bro?"

I agree that it is not productive to do these kind of arguments, but i also disagree with these real sports examples.
Computer games (pc) ALL use the same tools for their "discipline", mouse and keyboard.
It is rather easy to use some criteria and compare the mechanical skill for video games. Ofc you would have to include the strategical part aswell somehow.
But yeah in the end it doesn't really matter
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
2026 GSL S1: Ro8 Group B
CranKy Ducklings28
Liquipedia
BSL
19:00
RO16 Group C
Artosis vs TerrOr
spx vs StRyKeR
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ROOTCatZ 93
Ketroc 81
NeuroSwarm 8
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 3819
Backho 107
NaDa 24
League of Legends
Doublelift4151
JimRising 464
Other Games
tarik_tv18005
summit1g6806
FrodaN2563
monkeys_forever676
DenverSC249
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick3243
BasetradeTV318
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 106
• davetesta50
• RyuSc2 45
• musti20045 38
• Adnapsc2 16
• EnkiAlexander 11
• Airneanach9
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 122
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21418
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
9h 53m
RSL Revival
9h 53m
Cure vs Zoun
Clem vs Lambo
WardiTV Invitational
11h 53m
ByuN vs Rogue
Solar vs Ryung
Zoun vs Percival
Cure vs SHIN
BSL
18h 53m
Dewalt vs DragOn
Aether vs Jimin
GSL
1d 7h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 9h
Soma vs Leta
Wardi Open
1d 11h
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 15h
OSC
1d 23h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
[ Show More ]
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Light vs Flash
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Korean StarCraft League
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
BSL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S2: W6
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
KK 2v2 League Season 1
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
SCTL 2026 Spring
RSL Revival: Season 5
2026 GSL S1
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2

Upcoming

YSL S3
Escore Tournament S2: W7
Escore Tournament S2: W8
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Maestros of the Game 2
2026 GSL S2
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026: Closed Qualifier
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.