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On February 06 2014 14:20 Liquid`Snute wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Player booths need to have proper isolation and should definitely have background noise generators,  Red Bull Battle Grounds New York City did this by using in-ears combined with a headset playing white noise on top and it worked out great. If it is desirable to use 'noise' speakers in the booth + isolation ear-thingies + in-ears, i would definitely not recommend using just any dynamic soundtrack looped on top itself. Dunno what it's like in modern GSL right now, but: My worst experience with sound booths was from Proleague in Korea. I later heard that it was the same for WCS Season 1 Global Finals that were played in KR as it was the host region. The way of doing noise isolation in Proleague was distracting, but for the sake of concealment it worked. For those that haven't been in a Proleague booth or attended the 2013 WCS Season 1 Global Finals, it kinda goes like this: You wear in-ears, music is not allowed except for in-game music. If you choose not to listen to in-game music at a blasting loud volume, you hear this: The WoL sound-track, orchestra theme, not just one track, but a COPY of itself with some seconds delay at the same time being played from loudspeakers behind or in the booth. This thing playing at really high volume with its crazy fanfares at 4:07. You didn't hear this track one time, but two. They had copied it and layered it on top of itself. Think of opening this youtube link twice with a short gap in between. It was a total mess and extremely distracting, but it did work in terms of hiding what commentators were saying and blending in with game sounds. However, there were also times that despite the track being double-layered with itself, it would be awfully silent. There was a change in dynamics, which was also distracting. YES, as a pro-gamer you have to adapt to your surroundings, sc2-followers love to say this all the time. But feel free to open up the link above in TWO tabs in ur browser with some seconds in between with loud volume and try to focus on an attention demanding task with no prior practice. If you can do this, congratulations, you could do really well there  On the non-distracting side of things, white noise is great as a background noise since it covers the entire human auditory spectrum. However, sharp sounds (think of trumpets, human voices screaming, girls screaming) and sub-bass (like TB said u can feel vibrations too) can easily pierce through a white noise carpet given enough amplitude. I think the the king of all background noises would probably be a synthesized/composed low-dynamic mix consisting of: - white noise with very slight variations in the spectrum (think of sparkly and deeper ocean-waves, kinda like clapping), - random sine waves in the human voice spectrum to emulate commentators in a comfortable way - random bass/rumble, obviously not so much that its felt in a distracting way but certainly something that will mask the game bass. kinda like this but not as disturbing and in different tones. Because we shouldn't hear a mothership core popping and we shouldn't hear deep-voiced commentators saying o-ooooh 6pool. or u could do something cool like mixing in some recordings from the audience of previous events, add some reverb to make it a bit more mushy and less distracting and blast that on a speaker i know i probably didn't contribute anything to the situation in GSL with this post but it seems pretty sad that there are issues with something that's as simple as this. some research and dedication to the craft will solve it. proleague's way seemed more like a duct-tape than anything to me, but it was way way better than having audible casters. maybe not everyone take this seriously but i don't see a reason for it not to be a clear, set in stone type of thing with tested minimums that you know actually work.
Thank you for this post. Your knowlegde and insights are very interesting and nice to read 
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First question that comes to mind is: Why do other events have better boots, and why is it not simple to make the corrections ?
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Even if Rain had used the information what exactly could he had done? Cancel the Dark Shrine? Either way it's a strategy that completely relies on surprise and he'd still have a pylon and Twilight Council in the open. Doesn't really detract from the main point though, the fact that GOM have been around for so long now and apparently are still having these kind of issues? Pretty bad.
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Yikes, i vividly remember their response to the jinro thing, where they said something to the effect of them placing a warning on themselves which would never expire.
It seems that warning hasn't be heeded.
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On February 06 2014 15:13 Cheren wrote:
Along with inconsistent champions this is a big flaw of esports where the game relies on imperfect information
That is by far the cutest thing I've read all day. Sports legacies and just purely dominant competitive figures come around once in a blue moon, which is why cats like Jordan, Gretzky, Beckham and whoever your sport idol of choice is, are so highly respected and will always be remembered. ( Much like Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, fatality, heaton, etc etc ... )
So to say inconsistent Champions means for a flawed game. Well ..... you've pretty much called out every sport or competition that exists. As an example, how often do professional sports teams win their championship back to back? I mean yeah, it happens, but not often. Even in individual sports there are very, very rare cases of people just dominating, Tiger Woods Is probably one of the better examples, Michael Phelps as well, Anderson Silva etc etc. So in what case can you say that e-sports is any different? I'm Seriously struggling trying to find any.
The comment just seems very irrelevant to the thread yet quite specific, and on top of that it still made no fucking sense.
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On February 06 2014 16:01 ProBot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 15:13 Cheren wrote:
Along with inconsistent champions this is a big flaw of esports where the game relies on imperfect information That is by far the cutest thing I've read all day. Sports legacies and just purely dominant competitive figures come around once in a blue moon, which is why cats like Jordan, Gretzky, Beckham and whoever your sport idol of choice is, are so highly respected and will always be remembered. ( Much like Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, fatality, heaton, etc etc ... ) So to say inconsistent Champions means for a flawed game. Well ..... you've pretty much called out every sport or competition that exists. As an example, how often do professional sports teams win their championship back to back? I mean yeah, it happens, but not often. Even in individual sports there are very, very rare cases of people just dominating, Tiger Woods Is probably one of the better examples, Michael Phelps as well, Anderson Silva etc etc. So in what case can you say that e-sports is any different? I'm Seriously struggling trying to find any. The comment just seems very irrelevant to the thread yet quite specific, and on top of that it still made no fucking sense.
So you provide examples from nearly a dozen sports and esports of people who have won consistently, and no examples from SC2? How is that even disagreeing with me, yet alone disproving my point?
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On February 06 2014 16:07 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 16:01 ProBot wrote:On February 06 2014 15:13 Cheren wrote:
Along with inconsistent champions this is a big flaw of esports where the game relies on imperfect information That is by far the cutest thing I've read all day. Sports legacies and just purely dominant competitive figures come around once in a blue moon, which is why cats like Jordan, Gretzky, Beckham and whoever your sport idol of choice is, are so highly respected and will always be remembered. ( Much like Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, fatality, heaton, etc etc ... ) So to say inconsistent Champions means for a flawed game. Well ..... you've pretty much called out every sport or competition that exists. As an example, how often do professional sports teams win their championship back to back? I mean yeah, it happens, but not often. Even in individual sports there are very, very rare cases of people just dominating, Tiger Woods Is probably one of the better examples, Michael Phelps as well, Anderson Silva etc etc. So in what case can you say that e-sports is any different? I'm Seriously struggling trying to find any. The comment just seems very irrelevant to the thread yet quite specific, and on top of that it still made no fucking sense. So you provide examples from nearly a dozen sports and esports of people who have won consistently, and no examples from SC2? How is that even disagreeing with me, yet alone disproving my point?
Your Original post said e-sports in general and not StarCraft 2. On top of that you kinda made yourself look silly because you have no idea what you even said in the first place. Ruh Roh *gasp*
*edit* And my argument still stands!
*edit 2* MC btw, he's been fairly consistent since the game came out actually. He's had a few down swings here and there but again still quite comparable to dominating pro athletes.
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On February 06 2014 16:11 ProBot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 16:07 Cheren wrote:On February 06 2014 16:01 ProBot wrote:On February 06 2014 15:13 Cheren wrote:
Along with inconsistent champions this is a big flaw of esports where the game relies on imperfect information That is by far the cutest thing I've read all day. Sports legacies and just purely dominant competitive figures come around once in a blue moon, which is why cats like Jordan, Gretzky, Beckham and whoever your sport idol of choice is, are so highly respected and will always be remembered. ( Much like Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, fatality, heaton, etc etc ... ) So to say inconsistent Champions means for a flawed game. Well ..... you've pretty much called out every sport or competition that exists. As an example, how often do professional sports teams win their championship back to back? I mean yeah, it happens, but not often. Even in individual sports there are very, very rare cases of people just dominating, Tiger Woods Is probably one of the better examples, Michael Phelps as well, Anderson Silva etc etc. So in what case can you say that e-sports is any different? I'm Seriously struggling trying to find any. The comment just seems very irrelevant to the thread yet quite specific, and on top of that it still made no fucking sense. So you provide examples from nearly a dozen sports and esports of people who have won consistently, and no examples from SC2? How is that even disagreeing with me, yet alone disproving my point? Your Original post said e-sports in general and not StarCraft 2. On top of that you kinda made yourself look silly because you have no idea what you even said in the first place. Ruh Roh *gasp* *edit* And my argument still stands!
esports where the game relies on imperfect information, namely starcraft 2. Learn how to post without being a dick.
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On February 06 2014 16:14 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 16:11 ProBot wrote:On February 06 2014 16:07 Cheren wrote:On February 06 2014 16:01 ProBot wrote:On February 06 2014 15:13 Cheren wrote:
Along with inconsistent champions this is a big flaw of esports where the game relies on imperfect information That is by far the cutest thing I've read all day. Sports legacies and just purely dominant competitive figures come around once in a blue moon, which is why cats like Jordan, Gretzky, Beckham and whoever your sport idol of choice is, are so highly respected and will always be remembered. ( Much like Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, fatality, heaton, etc etc ... ) So to say inconsistent Champions means for a flawed game. Well ..... you've pretty much called out every sport or competition that exists. As an example, how often do professional sports teams win their championship back to back? I mean yeah, it happens, but not often. Even in individual sports there are very, very rare cases of people just dominating, Tiger Woods Is probably one of the better examples, Michael Phelps as well, Anderson Silva etc etc. So in what case can you say that e-sports is any different? I'm Seriously struggling trying to find any. The comment just seems very irrelevant to the thread yet quite specific, and on top of that it still made no fucking sense. So you provide examples from nearly a dozen sports and esports of people who have won consistently, and no examples from SC2? How is that even disagreeing with me, yet alone disproving my point? Your Original post said e-sports in general and not StarCraft 2. On top of that you kinda made yourself look silly because you have no idea what you even said in the first place. Ruh Roh *gasp* *edit* And my argument still stands! esports where the game relies on imperfect information, namely starcraft 2. Learn how to post without being a dick.
Ironic because that's exactly how you came off in that post, and you know you only posted that shit to rustle some Jimmies, so don't even go there.
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Russian Federation604 Posts
OMG...Rainuuu 
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Your using "Consistent Champions" as a example to explain that and there is literally no connection between the two. Yeah the dickishness on my end is probably unnecessary HOWEVER openly bashing the game that the website is based around generally isn't a bright idea yeah? :D
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On February 06 2014 16:23 ProBot wrote:
Your using "Consistent Champions" as a example to explain that and there is literally no connection between the two. Yeah the dickishness on my end is probably unnecessary HOWEVER openly bashing the game that the website is based around generally isn't a bright idea yeah? :D
They''re both related to SC2 revolving on having imperfect information on your opponent. It's not bashing SC2, it's just a statement that SC2 needs nearly perfect soundproofing due to information being so crucial. "Inconsistent Champions" is a result of SC2 being a mix of luck and skill, and since there's no RNG, the luck part comes from imperfect information.
edit: from an interview with Idra on Kotaku.
They're [bw and sc2] both games of limited information, meaning they aren't chess, you can't see everything your opponent is doing so almost always your strategical decisions are at best educated guesses, and often totally blind guesses. To me, that's pretty bad. Too much randomness, not a ton of skill involved. Broodwar compensated for this by being incredibly mechanically difficult, it was just really really hard to get the game to do what you wanted. You had to be insanely fast and you had to know the game inside and out to compensate for all it's little quirks and clunkiness. That gave it an element of repeatable, practicable, reliable skill that rewarded people that were consistently good at that part of the game. SC2 removes a lot of that, with it's more modern interface and attempts to be casual-friendly, and I think that ended up making it too reliant on the strategy portions of the game. And as I said before, a strategy reliant game with limited information is kind of meh to me
http://betterstate.kinja.com/real-time-strategy-star-idra-is-here-to-chat-in-real-t-648986843
So on that note, small bits of information can be game-changing. That's why soundproofing at a LAN needs to be nearly perfect.
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I wouldn't say it's such a huge problem (unlike people here saying it's a disaster), but it is a problem nonetheless and should be fixed asap.
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On February 06 2014 16:32 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 16:23 ProBot wrote:
Your using "Consistent Champions" as a example to explain that and there is literally no connection between the two. Yeah the dickishness on my end is probably unnecessary HOWEVER openly bashing the game that the website is based around generally isn't a bright idea yeah? :D They''re both related to SC2 revolving on having imperfect information on your opponent. It's not bashing SC2, it's just a statement that SC2 needs nearly perfect soundproofing due to information being so crucial. "Inconsistent Champions" is a result of SC2 being a mix of luck and skill, and since there's no RNG, the luck part comes from imperfect information.
Ok i agree with you totally inconsistent champions in sc2 is a result of the game being a mix of luck and skill. But I still don't see where that is a problem tho, because that describes almost every mainstream competition on the planet minus like ... chess.
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I think the threat of early game aggression and special attacks based on tech rushes are a really important part of the game.
They rely on being hidden to some degree and players can usually scout to cross certain ones off their list.
With a sound issue like this it seems to push players to not doing those strategies since they are extra risky as your opponent has an easier time figuring out if it is happening or not.
That is kind of a shame.
Also for me it is a bit weird to see these players side with sportsmanship over winning. If you can hear the crowd shouldn't you be almost obvious about this and use it to your advantage? I guess this is just a different culture thing or they are trying to protect the company and maybe even their own careers seeing how GOM has handled some of the sportsmanship issues in the past. I really don't like that.
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On February 06 2014 16:57 legatus legionis wrote:
I think the threat of early game aggression and special attacks based on tech rushes are a really important part of the game.
They rely on being hidden to some degree and players can usually scout to cross certain ones off their list.
With a sound issue like this it seems to push players to not doing those strategies since they are extra risky as your opponent has an easier time figuring out if it is happening or not.
That is kind of a shame.
Also for me it is a bit weird to see these players side with sportsmanship over winning. If you can hear the crowd shouldn't you be almost obvious about this and use it to your advantage? I guess this is just a different culture thing or they are trying to protect the company and maybe even their own careers seeing how GOM has handled some of the sportsmanship issues in the past. I really don't like that.
You don't like sportsmanship? It should be the first priority in a professional environment. You can't compromise morality to get ahead. That would show a lot about your character.
Bottom line is they need to fix this issue. Like others, I'm surprised this issue hasn't come up and been resolved a long time ago.
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On February 06 2014 16:41 samurai80 wrote:
I wouldn't say it's such a huge problem (unlike people here saying it's a disaster), but it is a problem nonetheless and should be fixed asap.
You are completely wrong. Hearing the crowd react to what is going on the game is 1. a HUGE tell. 2. very distracting. I'll stop there but honestly the list goes on for days. It is a huge problem. It is a disaster.
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I think there was a WCS game where MC was scouting on whirlwind, and just missed his opponents main base, (didn't go far enough to see any buildings) when it was time for his attack he moved into the wrong conner of the map and the crowd roared with laughter. After the game in an interview he mentioned how when he heard the laughter he knew he scouted wrong and felt dumb. Nobody said anything but he admitted that he could hear the crowd. I always thought it was weird and just assumed players could sometimes hear reactions if they were loud enough...
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On February 06 2014 15:10 ProBot wrote:
All they need is a set of Peltors, seriously, thats literally ... all ..... they ............. need. ( added the dots for dramatic affect! )
It's a good start but you could - and should - still be able to hear calls of distress and such. They are made to protect your ears, not to make you deaf/ignorant of your surrounding. Getting a heads-up from a crowd should not be a problem without additional measures.
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On February 06 2014 17:37 AlternativeEgo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 15:10 ProBot wrote:
All they need is a set of Peltors, seriously, thats literally ... all ..... they ............. need. ( added the dots for dramatic affect! ) It's a good start but you could - and should - still be able to hear calls of distress and such. They are made to protect your ears, not to make you deaf/ignorant of your surrounding. Getting a heads-up from a crowd should not be a problem without additional measures.
Is it just me or does this scream paranoia? O.O. He's in a booth playing starcraft 2 not at a computer lab on campus or a public library or something where he might not want to be completely ignorant to his environment.. but in a booth playing sc2 at gom studio? Think its ok, man.
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EPT
