A few weeks ago, Stork complained about the quality of soundproofing in the Gom studio, saying that he could hear the audience and commentators during the games. He speculated that the noises from the audience and commentators allowed his opponent to discover his hidden stargate strategy. TRUE agreed with Stork about the soundproofing, saying that in certain situations it was possible to hear outside noise.
After Tuesday's Code S games, SKT_Rain became the third progamer to put in a complaint. Though he was able to eventually advance out of his group in second place, he suffered a 0-2 loss to CJ_herO in games where his hidden buildings were discovered.
"I used proxy strategies in both my games, but honestly the soundproofing isn't that good. I heard a little bit of the crowd cheering, so I knew my proxy buildings had been discovered. However, I was forced to play as if I didn't know it had been discovered. I don't think that herO played by reacting to the sound, but it still left me feeling annoyed."
There are two situations Rain might be referring to. The first one sees herO inadvertently scout out a hidden dark shrine as his probe is sent to build a proxy pylon.
In the second scenario, herO's phoenix sees Rain's hidden dark shrine at the edge of its vision range as it scouts around the map. A few moments later, the phoenix doubles back to confirm what is building.
There doesn't seem to be any convincing reason to believe that herO used outside sounds as a tell. It's likely that he was not looking at his phoenix at the exact moment it discovered the dark shrine, but saw the spot on his minimap a few seconds later and doubled back with his phoenix to confirm what was warping in.
Even if herO didn't get an unfair advantage, Rain was put in very awkward spot. He learned that his hidden building had been scouted due to outside noise, but was forced to play dumb out of his sense of sportsmanship.
It's clear that soundproofing is a problem in the GomTV studio, and it should be fixed as soon as possible.
Here are some responses from the community:
On February 06 2014 13:16 TotalBiscuit wrote: A few misconceptions people have about sound-proofing for SC2.
The booth is the most important part! : False. The booth is the least effective of the 3 components of the standard sound-proofing process. The in-ear headphones and over ear sound-isolating headgear are by far the most important component, to the point where tournaments have been successfully soundproofed just using these and no booths. Booths are generally constructed of little more than wood, plastic and plexiglass, none of which are particularly well known for keeping out sound. In most cases they combine this with speakers which pump in white noise and a sound-dampening curtain of heavy material towards the door. You will absolutely hear a crowd and commentators while sitting in a booth if this is your only method of sound proofing.
It is possible to soundproof a booth against a crowd! : False. Sound doesn't work that way. The vibrations can and will get through unless you plan on suspending it in mid air and isolating it from the atmosphere. Booths are primarily to isolate the player from distractions, not the noise of the crowd.
They should just use noise-cancelling headphones, like Bose! : False. Active noise-cancellation works to lower the effective volume of certain frequencies sounds. It works well against sounds which are constant, such as airplane engines or air conditioning. It works very poorly against unpredictable sounds with a high range of frequencies such as human speech (or screaming).
The correct course of action for sound-proofing involves the use of heavy-duty passive noise-cancelling headgear such as helicopter headsets which provide a tight seal against the skin. Ear protectors from work sites or firing ranges are also very effective. These should be combined with in-ears playing music, game sound or preferably both. They should not be prevented from getting a good seal against the skin by any item of clothing (such as a bandana or hat). The ear protectors do the majority of the work and the in-ears with sound actively pumping into them prevent the rest from getting to the player.
GOM for some reason refuses to use proper headphones. It's one of several extremely questionable production decisions they have made and for some reason continue to make. They are the highest level of SC2 competition in the world and the most prestigious tournament, it's about time they acted like it.
On February 06 2014 14:20 Liquid`Snute wrote: Player booths need to have proper isolation and should definitely have background noise generators, Red Bull Battle Grounds New York City did this by using in-ears combined with a headset playing white noise on top and it worked out great.
If it is desirable to use 'noise' speakers in the booth + isolation ear-thingies + in-ears, i would definitely not recommend using just any dynamic soundtrack looped on top itself. Dunno what it's like in modern GSL right now, but: My worst experience with sound booths was from Proleague in Korea. I later heard that it was the same for WCS Season 1 Global Finals that were played in KR as it was the host region.
The way of doing noise isolation in Proleague was distracting, but for the sake of concealment it worked. For those that haven't been in a Proleague booth or attended the 2013 WCS Season 1 Global Finals, it kinda goes like this:
You wear in-ears, music is not allowed except for in-game music. If you choose not to listen to in-game music at a blasting loud volume, you hear this:
The WoL sound-track, orchestra theme, not just one track, but a COPY of itself with some seconds delay at the same time being played from loudspeakers behind or in the booth. This thing playing at really high volume with its crazy fanfares at 4:07. You didn't hear this track one time, but two. They had copied it and layered it on top of itself. Think of opening this youtube link twice with a short gap in between.
It was a total mess and extremely distracting, but it did work in terms of hiding what commentators were saying and blending in with game sounds. However, there were also times that despite the track being double-layered with itself, it would be awfully silent. There was a change in dynamics, which was also distracting.
YES, as a pro-gamer you have to adapt to your surroundings, sc2-followers love to say this all the time. But feel free to open up the link above in TWO tabs in ur browser with some seconds in between with loud volume and try to focus on an attention demanding task with no prior practice. If you can do this, congratulations, you could do really well there
On the non-distracting side of things, white noise is great as a background noise since it covers the entire human auditory spectrum. However, sharp sounds (think of trumpets, human voices screaming, girls screaming) and sub-bass (like TB said u can feel vibrations too) can easily pierce through a white noise carpet given enough amplitude. I think the the king of all background noises would probably be a synthesized/composed low-dynamic mix consisting of: - white noise with very slight variations in the spectrum (think of sparkly and deeper ocean-waves, kinda like clapping), - random sine waves in the human voice spectrum to emulate commentators in a comfortable way - random bass/rumble, obviously not so much that its felt in a distracting way but certainly something that will mask the game bass. kinda like this but not as disturbing and in different tones. Because we shouldn't hear a mothership core popping and we shouldn't hear deep-voiced commentators saying o-ooooh 6pool.
or u could do something cool like mixing in some recordings from the audience of previous events, add some reverb to make it a bit more mushy and less distracting and blast that on a speaker
i know i probably didn't contribute anything to the situation in GSL with this post but it seems pretty sad that there are issues with something that's as simple as this. some research and dedication to the craft will solve it. proleague's way seemed more like a duct-tape than anything to me, but it was way way better than having audible casters.
maybe not everyone take this seriously but i don't see a reason for it not to be a clear, set in stone type of thing with tested minimums that you know actually work.
Seems like there are some relatively easy fixes to this if pro gamers are complaining, maybe as expensive as new booths but those have to be a drop in the bucket right?
This brings back fond memories of Huk building a mothership against SeleCT at MLG and when the crowd inevitably went wild he said "Don't worry, that's just Halo"
Seems like providing the players with some noise cancelling headphones would be the easiest fix. Or just soundproofing the booths better. I mean we haven't had a ton of complaints throughout GSL's history, what has changed recently that they can't properly soundproof the booths now?
This is kind of absurd. They need to fix their booths, or give the players noise cancelling headsets like a lot of other tournaments do. Surely GOM will do something about this, it could cause bigger problems down the line.
Really glad this thread is up. This kind of thing just has to be dealt with. Period. No loss of love for GOM, obviously. But lighting a fire under them on this is appropriate if they are not themselves feeling the heat of such a mistake.
On February 06 2014 12:27 Gorlin wrote: Weird how it's suddenly became a problem after nearly no issues for so long (only case I ever heard was the Jinro one (I think it was Jinro...)).
this. How come there are complaints now and not before? Did Gom changes their booths recently or something? Either way, let's hope they fix them up soon enough.
On February 06 2014 12:23 Yorkie wrote: This brings back fond memories of Huk building a mothership against SeleCT at MLG and when the crowd inevitably went wild he said "Don't worry, that's just Halo"
On February 06 2014 12:23 Yorkie wrote: This brings back fond memories of Huk building a mothership against SeleCT at MLG and when the crowd inevitably went wild he said "Don't worry, that's just Halo"
On February 06 2014 12:20 Adebisi wrote: Just about everywhere else couples helicopter headsets with the booths, not sure why Gom chooses not to...
Those things are so goddamn uncomfortable.
who cares? this ruins the tournament
i think the players might care.. maybe just a little..
obviously both are problems tho
If the players care more about allegedly uncomfortable headsets over the integrity and fairness of a tournament..
I again say, who cares. And I'm 99% sure none of the players would say "I prefer to hear the crowd reactions and have my opponent here them to having a slightly uncomfortable soundproof headset" if it's uncomfortable at all. Some random guy said they are uncomfortable.
On February 06 2014 12:23 Yorkie wrote: This brings back fond memories of Huk building a mothership against SeleCT at MLG and when the crowd inevitably went wild he said "Don't worry, that's just Halo"
Theres gotta be a vod of this somewhere right?
You can just look up Huk vs Select mothership rush or MLG DC. I can't find a vod of the original cast, only replay versions or people who filmed it from the crowd. The game was actually terrible SeleCT destroyed him, but it was hilarious
I've always had the thought it might be fun to make those booths. Especially being front row at IPL and seeing how fucking rickety they are. The doors weren't working right, people had to manhandle them to close them and even then they wouldn't be fully shut. You'll hear problems about sound, or AC, or heat, or the lights. There's no way I couldn't do better pulling it out of my ass. Just there really isn't much of a market for such a thing.
On February 06 2014 12:20 Adebisi wrote: Just about everywhere else couples helicopter headsets with the booths, not sure why Gom chooses not to...
Those things are so goddamn uncomfortable.
who cares? this ruins the tournament
i think the players might care.. maybe just a little..
obviously both are problems tho
If the players care more about allegedly uncomfortable headsets over the integrity and fairness of a tournament..
I again say, who cares. And I'm 99% sure none of the players would say "I prefer to hear the crowd reactions and have my opponent here them to having a slightly uncomfortable soundproof headset" if it's uncomfortable at all. Some random guy said they are uncomfortable.
Stunned people are arguing this isn't a problem.
I think it's funny that people assume it absolutely must be an either/or thing.
On February 06 2014 12:20 Adebisi wrote: Just about everywhere else couples helicopter headsets with the booths, not sure why Gom chooses not to...
Those things are so goddamn uncomfortable.
who cares? this ruins the tournament
i think the players might care.. maybe just a little..
obviously both are problems tho
If the players care more about allegedly uncomfortable headsets over the integrity and fairness of a tournament..
I again say, who cares. And I'm 99% sure none of the players would say "I prefer to hear the crowd reactions and have my opponent here them to having a slightly uncomfortable soundproof headset" if it's uncomfortable at all. Some random guy said they are uncomfortable.
Stunned people are arguing this isn't a problem.
I don't think people are arguing this isn't a problem, I think people are arguing that there should be a solution (such as finding better ways to soundproof the booths) that allows players to also use the headsets they feel comfortable with.
A few misconceptions people have about sound-proofing for SC2.
The booth is the most important part! : False. The booth is the least effective of the 3 components of the standard sound-proofing process. The in-ear headphones and over ear sound-isolating headgear are by far the most important component, to the point where tournaments have been successfully soundproofed just using these and no booths. Booths are generally constructed of little more than wood, plastic and plexiglass, none of which are particularly well known for keeping out sound. In most cases they combine this with speakers which pump in white noise and a sound-dampening curtain of heavy material towards the door. You will absolutely hear a crowd and commentators while sitting in a booth if this is your only method of sound proofing.
It is possible to soundproof a booth against a crowd! : False. Sound doesn't work that way. The vibrations can and will get through unless you plan on suspending it in mid air and isolating it from the atmosphere. Booths are primarily to isolate the player from distractions, not the noise of the crowd.
They should just use noise-cancelling headphones, like Bose! : False. Active noise-cancellation works to lower the effective volume of certain frequencies sounds. It works well against sounds which are constant, such as airplane engines or air conditioning. It works very poorly against unpredictable sounds with a high range of frequencies such as human speech (or screaming).
The correct course of action for sound-proofing involves the use of heavy-duty passive noise-cancelling headgear such as helicopter headsets which provide a tight seal against the skin. Ear protectors from work sites or firing ranges are also very effective. These should be combined with in-ears playing music, game sound or preferably both. They should not be prevented from getting a good seal against the skin by any item of clothing (such as a bandana or hat). The ear protectors do the majority of the work and the in-ears with sound actively pumping into them prevent the rest from getting to the player.
GOM for some reason refuses to use proper headphones. It's one of several extremely questionable production decisions they have made and for some reason continue to make. They are the highest level of SC2 competition in the world and the most prestigious tournament, it's about time they acted like it.
I've noticed that the hand warmers have made a reappearance at GSL as well. It was always strange to me that they could pay Korean pro gamers salaries and winnings but can't give them a warm place to play... Looks like soundproofing isn't much of a priority either... Unfortunate.
On February 06 2014 13:16 Lucid_Interval wrote: I've noticed that the hand warmers have made a reappearance at GSL as well. It was always strange to me that they could pay Korean pro gamers salaries and winnings but can't give them a warm place to play... Looks like soundproofing isn't much of a priority either... Unfortunate.
Tournaments in general are terrible for this. Heavy use of air conditioning often results in players being very cold. Our players requested team hoodies so that they could continue to display team sponsors while not freezing to death, since otherwise they would have to wear jackets at many events since they are too cold.
On February 06 2014 12:27 Gorlin wrote: Weird how it's suddenly became a problem after nearly no issues for so long (only case I ever heard was the Jinro one (I think it was Jinro...)).
this. How come there are complaints now and not before? Did Gom changes their booths recently or something? Either way, let's hope they fix them up soon enough.
On February 06 2014 13:16 Lucid_Interval wrote: I've noticed that the hand warmers have made a reappearance at GSL as well. It was always strange to me that they could pay Korean pro gamers salaries and winnings but can't give them a warm place to play... Looks like soundproofing isn't much of a priority either... Unfortunate.
Oh that note, my hands get cold quite often while gaming and the options to reheat are pretty much disposable hand warmers or nothing. I actually got one of these for Christmas and it works pretty well. Its about on par with the heat from a disposable air activated warmer, but it's reusable and the heats lasts for an ETERNITY. Seriously if you top it off it'll last for 24 hours easy. My one gripe is that the cloth case you're supposed to use it in so you don't burn yourself is really annoying on my hands but it can be easily replaced with something else.
On February 06 2014 13:16 Lucid_Interval wrote: I've noticed that the hand warmers have made a reappearance at GSL as well. It was always strange to me that they could pay Korean pro gamers salaries and winnings but can't give them a warm place to play... Looks like soundproofing isn't much of a priority either... Unfortunate.
Tournaments in general are terrible for this. Heavy use of air conditioning often results in players being very cold. Our players requested team hoodies so that they could continue to display team sponsors while not freezing to death, since otherwise they would have to wear jackets at many events since they are too cold.
On February 06 2014 13:16 Lucid_Interval wrote: I've noticed that the hand warmers have made a reappearance at GSL as well. It was always strange to me that they could pay Korean pro gamers salaries and winnings but can't give them a warm place to play... Looks like soundproofing isn't much of a priority either... Unfortunate.
its cold in korea + harm warmers are used to warm up regardless of temperature. if they had heating for the winter tournaments and ac for the summer tournaments gom would probably go broke off those bills alone
On February 06 2014 13:16 TotalBiscuit wrote: A few misconceptions people have about sound-proofing for SC2.
The booth is the most important part! : False. The booth is the least effective of the 3 components of the standard sound-proofing process. The in-ear headphones and over ear sound-isolating headgear are by far the most important component, to the point where tournaments have been successfully soundproofed just using these and no booths. Booths are generally constructed of little more than wood, plastic and plexiglass, none of which are particularly well known for keeping out sound. In most cases they combine this with speakers which pump in white noise and a sound-dampening curtain of heavy material towards the door. You will absolutely hear a crowd and commentators while sitting in a booth if this is your only method of sound proofing.
It is possible to soundproof a booth against a crowd! : False. Sound doesn't work that way. The vibrations can and will get through unless you plan on suspending it in mid air and isolating it from the atmosphere. Booths are primarily to isolate the player from distractions, not the noise of the crowd.
They should just use noise-cancelling headphones, like Bose! : False. Active noise-cancellation works to lower the effective volume of certain frequencies sounds. It works well against sounds which are constant, such as airplane engines or air conditioning. It works very poorly against unpredictable sounds with a high range of frequencies such as human speech (or screaming).
Thanks for this, TB. I think a lot of people who read about these issues don't have any experience with sound-proofing (I don't mean that as an insult; it's not exactly a common concern in most lines of work), so this is good info for those who might not be familiar with what works and what doesn't.
On February 06 2014 13:16 Lucid_Interval wrote: I've noticed that the hand warmers have made a reappearance at GSL as well. It was always strange to me that they could pay Korean pro gamers salaries and winnings but can't give them a warm place to play... Looks like soundproofing isn't much of a priority either... Unfortunate.
its cold in korea + harm warmers are used to warm up regardless of temperature. if they had heating for the winter tournaments and ac for the summer tournaments gom would probably go broke off those bills alone
If you can't pay for AC / Heating for a live venue.... I don't know what to say about this, that's ridiculous.
How long until this unquestionably affects the outcome of the match? Wasn't it MLG that had a huge stink one time when a protoss knew something was up with crowd cheering (this must've been back in 2011)? I'm hoping for a fix and more pressure (Korean) for a fix.
On February 06 2014 13:38 rkshox wrote: Is this the first time the problem has appeared? I never heard of any of the esF teams complaining about them during GSTL or previous GSL seasons?
I've heard rumours over the past few years though nothing concrete.
There doesn't seem to be any convincing reason to believe that herO used outside sounds as a tell. It's likely that he was not looking at his phoenix at the exact moment it discovered the dark shrine, but saw the spot on his minimap a few seconds later and doubled back with his phoenix to confirm what was warping in.
That's most likely what happened indeed, that move doesn't look suspicious at all to me. Regardless, that's a bit disturbing if players don't play with a clear mind being 100% comfortable about this.
On February 06 2014 13:38 rkshox wrote: Is this the first time the problem has appeared? I never heard of any of the esF teams complaining about them during GSTL or previous GSL seasons?
In this GSL season, Stork said it first, and then some little guy (forgot name) confirmed, now Rain confirms again.
If it is desirable to use 'noise' speakers in the booth + isolation ear-thingies + in-ears, i would definitely not recommend using just any dynamic soundtrack looped on top itself. Dunno what it's like in modern GSL right now, but: My worst experience with sound booths was from Proleague in Korea. I later heard that it was the same for WCS Season 1 Global Finals that were played in KR as it was the host region.
The way of doing noise isolation in Proleague was distracting, but for the sake of concealment it worked. For those that haven't been in a Proleague booth or attended the 2013 WCS Season 1 Global Finals, it kinda goes like this:
You wear in-ears, music is not allowed except for in-game music. If you choose not to listen to in-game music at a blasting loud volume, you hear this:
The WoL sound-track, orchestra theme, not just one track, but a COPY of itself with some seconds delay at the same time being played from loudspeakers behind or in the booth. This thing playing at really high volume with its crazy fanfares at 4:07. You didn't hear this track one time, but two. They had copied it and layered it on top of itself. Think of opening this youtube link twice with a short gap in between.
It was a total mess and extremely distracting, but it did work in terms of hiding what commentators were saying and blending in with game sounds. However, there were also times that despite the track being double-layered with itself, it would be awfully silent. There was a change in dynamics, which was also distracting.
YES, as a pro-gamer you have to adapt to your surroundings, sc2-followers love to say this all the time. But feel free to open up the link above in TWO tabs in ur browser with some seconds in between with loud volume and try to focus on an attention demanding task with no prior practice. If you can do this, congratulations, you could do really well there
On the non-distracting side of things, white noise is great as a background noise since it covers the entire human auditory spectrum. However, sharp sounds (think of trumpets, human voices screaming, girls screaming) and sub-bass (like TB said u can feel vibrations too) can easily pierce through a white noise carpet given enough amplitude. I think the the king of all background noises would probably be a synthesized/composed low-dynamic mix consisting of: - white noise with very slight variations in the spectrum (think of sparkly and deeper ocean-waves, kinda like clapping), - random sine waves in the human voice spectrum to emulate commentators in a comfortable way - random bass/rumble, obviously not so much that its felt in a distracting way but certainly something that will mask the game bass. kinda like this but not as disturbing and in different tones. Because we shouldn't hear a mothership core popping and we shouldn't hear deep-voiced commentators saying o-ooooh 6pool.
or u could do something cool like mixing in some recordings from the audience of previous events, add some reverb to make it a bit more mushy and less distracting and blast that on a speaker
i know i probably didn't contribute anything to the situation in GSL with this post but it seems pretty sad that there are issues with something that's as simple as this. some research and dedication to the craft will solve it. proleague's way seemed more like a duct-tape than anything to me, but it was way way better than having audible casters.
maybe not everyone take this seriously but i don't see a reason for it not to be a clear, set in stone type of thing with tested minimums that you know actually work.
On February 06 2014 14:20 Liquid`Snute wrote: Player booths need to have proper isolation and should definitely have background noise generators, Red Bull Battle Grounds New York City did this by using in-ears combined with a headset playing white noise on top and it worked out great.
If it is desirable to use 'noise' speakers in the booth + isolation ear-thingies + in-ears, i would definitely not recommend using just any dynamic soundtrack looped on top itself. Dunno what it's like in modern GSL right now, but: My worst experience with sound booths was from Proleague in Korea. I later heard that it was the same for WCS Season 1 Global Finals that were played in KR as it was the host region.
The way of doing noise isolation in Proleague was distracting, but for the sake of concealment it worked. For those that haven't been in a Proleague booth or attended the 2013 WCS Season 1 Global Finals, it kinda goes like this:
You wear in-ears, music is not allowed except for in-game music. If you choose not to listen to in-game music at a blasting loud volume, you hear this:
The WoL sound-track, orchestra theme, not just one track, but a COPY of itself with some seconds delay at the same time being played from loudspeakers behind or in the booth. This thing playing at really high volume with its crazy fanfares at 4:07. However, there was a twist. You didn't hear this track one time, but two. They had copied it and layered it on top of itself. Think of opening this youtube link twice with a short gap in between.
It was a total mess and extremely distracting, but it did work in terms of hiding what commentators were saying and blending in with game sounds. However, there were also times that despite the track being double-layered with itself, it would be awfully silent. There was a change in dynamics, which was also distracting.
YES, as a pro-gamer you have to adapt to your surroundings, sc2-followers love to say this all the time. But feel free to open up the link above in TWO tabs in ur browser with some seconds in between with loud volume and try to focus on an attention demanding task with no prior practice. If you can do this, congratulations, you could do really well there
On the non-distracting side of things, white noise is great as a background noise since it covers the entire human auditory spectrum. However, sharp sounds (think of trumpets, human voices screaming, girls screaming) and sub-bass (like TB said u can feel vibrations too) can easily pierce through a white noise carpet given enough amplitude. I think the the king of all background noises would probably be a synthesized/composed low-dynamic mix consisting of: - white noise with very slight variations in the spectrum (think of sparkly and deeper ocean-waves, kinda like clapping), - random sine waves in the human voice spectrum to emulate commentators in a comfortable way - random bass/rumble, obviously not so much that its felt in a distracting way but certainly something that will mask the game bass. kinda like this but not as disturbing and in different tones. Because we shouldn't hear a mothership core popping and we shouldn't hear deep-voiced commentators saying o-ooooh 6pool.
or u could do something cool like mixing in some recordings from the audience of previous events, add some reverb to make it a bit more mushy and less distracting and blast that on a speaker
i know i probably didn't contribute anything to the situation in GSL with this post but it seems pretty sad that there are issues with something that's as simple as this. some research and dedication to the craft will solve it. proleague's way seemed more like a duct-tape than anything to me, but it was way way better than having audible casters.
maybe not everyone take this seriously but i don't see a reason for it not to be a clear, set in stone type of thing with tested minimums that you know actually work.
On February 06 2014 12:20 Adebisi wrote: Just about everywhere else couples helicopter headsets with the booths, not sure why Gom chooses not to...
Those things are so goddamn uncomfortable.
who cares? this ruins the tournament
i think the players might care.. maybe just a little..
obviously both are problems tho
Headphones being slightly too tight can not possibly be taken as a legit complaint. Even chess players endure bigger stress considering the duration of their matches. And speaking from personal experience you won't notice them anyway. Your focus will be on the game.
On February 06 2014 13:31 Danglars wrote: How long until this unquestionably affects the outcome of the match? Wasn't it MLG that had a huge stink one time when a protoss knew something was up with crowd cheering (this must've been back in 2011)? I'm hoping for a fix and more pressure (Korean) for a fix.
was this when HuK was doing a mothership rush and told SelecT to ignore the crowd because they were cheering for Halo?
Besides soundproof, I always thought looking at the audiences would somehow give risky plays a disadvantages at tournaments too. I think tinted glass where the players can't see out, but spectators can see in would be a nice fix. This also helps them focus
They should just use noise-cancelling headphones, like Bose! : False. Active noise-cancellation works to lower the effective volume of certain frequencies sounds. It works well against sounds which are constant, such as airplane engines or air conditioning. It works very poorly against unpredictable sounds with a high range of frequencies such as human speech (or screaming).
That's not true. Active noise cancellation works using destructive interference (one wave played against its inversion = no noise), and it works for all sounds regardless of predictability. If they're not working they're not good quality. The music school I was at had a pair which could reduce the sound of a drumkit to barely audible (and this pair was only ~150NZD), and if you were wearing an in-ear set underneath you couldn't hear anything.
GOM really needs to do some tests to check how good the soundproofing actually is. It has never seemed to be a problem before, so it's interesting that this has just come up now.
What? Gom —and possibly others— don't use active noise cancellation? Sheesh. There should be game sounds playing in earbuds or in-ear headphones while having noise-cancelling circumaural headphones on the outside playing some noise. I would think it's both cheaper, and certainly more effective than soundproofing booths.
If it is desirable to use 'noise' speakers in the booth + isolation ear-thingies + in-ears, i would definitely not recommend using just any dynamic soundtrack looped on top itself. Dunno what it's like in modern GSL right now, but: My worst experience with sound booths was from Proleague in Korea. I later heard that it was the same for WCS Season 1 Global Finals that were played in KR as it was the host region.
The way of doing noise isolation in Proleague was distracting, but for the sake of concealment it worked. For those that haven't been in a Proleague booth or attended the 2013 WCS Season 1 Global Finals, it kinda goes like this:
You wear in-ears, music is not allowed except for in-game music. If you choose not to listen to in-game music at a blasting loud volume, you hear this:
The WoL sound-track, orchestra theme, not just one track, but a COPY of itself with some seconds delay at the same time being played from loudspeakers behind or in the booth. This thing playing at really high volume with its crazy fanfares at 4:07. You didn't hear this track one time, but two. They had copied it and layered it on top of itself. Think of opening this youtube link twice with a short gap in between.
It was a total mess and extremely distracting, but it did work in terms of hiding what commentators were saying and blending in with game sounds. However, there were also times that despite the track being double-layered with itself, it would be awfully silent. There was a change in dynamics, which was also distracting.
YES, as a pro-gamer you have to adapt to your surroundings, sc2-followers love to say this all the time. But feel free to open up the link above in TWO tabs in ur browser with some seconds in between with loud volume and try to focus on an attention demanding task with no prior practice. If you can do this, congratulations, you could do really well there
On the non-distracting side of things, white noise is great as a background noise since it covers the entire human auditory spectrum. However, sharp sounds (think of trumpets, human voices screaming, girls screaming) and sub-bass (like TB said u can feel vibrations too) can easily pierce through a white noise carpet given enough amplitude. I think the the king of all background noises would probably be a synthesized/composed low-dynamic mix consisting of: - white noise with very slight variations in the spectrum (think of sparkly and deeper ocean-waves, kinda like clapping), - random sine waves in the human voice spectrum to emulate commentators in a comfortable way - random bass/rumble, obviously not so much that its felt in a distracting way but certainly something that will mask the game bass. kinda like this but not as disturbing and in different tones. Because we shouldn't hear a mothership core popping and we shouldn't hear deep-voiced commentators saying o-ooooh 6pool.
or u could do something cool like mixing in some recordings from the audience of previous events, add some reverb to make it a bit more mushy and less distracting and blast that on a speaker
i know i probably didn't contribute anything to the situation in GSL with this post but it seems pretty sad that there are issues with something that's as simple as this. some research and dedication to the craft will solve it. proleague's way seemed more like a duct-tape than anything to me, but it was way way better than having audible casters.
maybe not everyone take this seriously but i don't see a reason for it not to be a clear, set in stone type of thing with tested minimums that you know actually work.
Thank you for this post. Your knowlegde and insights are very interesting and nice to read
Even if Rain had used the information what exactly could he had done? Cancel the Dark Shrine? Either way it's a strategy that completely relies on surprise and he'd still have a pylon and Twilight Council in the open. Doesn't really detract from the main point though, the fact that GOM have been around for so long now and apparently are still having these kind of issues? Pretty bad.
Yikes, i vividly remember their response to the jinro thing, where they said something to the effect of them placing a warning on themselves which would never expire.
On February 06 2014 15:13 Cheren wrote: Along with inconsistent champions this is a big flaw of esports where the game relies on imperfect information
That is by far the cutest thing I've read all day. Sports legacies and just purely dominant competitive figures come around once in a blue moon, which is why cats like Jordan, Gretzky, Beckham and whoever your sport idol of choice is, are so highly respected and will always be remembered. ( Much like Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, fatality, heaton, etc etc ... )
So to say inconsistent Champions means for a flawed game. Well ..... you've pretty much called out every sport or competition that exists. As an example, how often do professional sports teams win their championship back to back? I mean yeah, it happens, but not often. Even in individual sports there are very, very rare cases of people just dominating, Tiger Woods Is probably one of the better examples, Michael Phelps as well, Anderson Silva etc etc. So in what case can you say that e-sports is any different? I'm Seriously struggling trying to find any.
The comment just seems very irrelevant to the thread yet quite specific, and on top of that it still made no fucking sense.
On February 06 2014 15:13 Cheren wrote: Along with inconsistent champions this is a big flaw of esports where the game relies on imperfect information
That is by far the cutest thing I've read all day. Sports legacies and just purely dominant competitive figures come around once in a blue moon, which is why cats like Jordan, Gretzky, Beckham and whoever your sport idol of choice is, are so highly respected and will always be remembered. ( Much like Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, fatality, heaton, etc etc ... )
So to say inconsistent Champions means for a flawed game. Well ..... you've pretty much called out every sport or competition that exists. As an example, how often do professional sports teams win their championship back to back? I mean yeah, it happens, but not often. Even in individual sports there are very, very rare cases of people just dominating, Tiger Woods Is probably one of the better examples, Michael Phelps as well, Anderson Silva etc etc. So in what case can you say that e-sports is any different? I'm Seriously struggling trying to find any.
The comment just seems very irrelevant to the thread yet quite specific, and on top of that it still made no fucking sense.
So you provide examples from nearly a dozen sports and esports of people who have won consistently, and no examples from SC2? How is that even disagreeing with me, yet alone disproving my point?
On February 06 2014 15:13 Cheren wrote: Along with inconsistent champions this is a big flaw of esports where the game relies on imperfect information
That is by far the cutest thing I've read all day. Sports legacies and just purely dominant competitive figures come around once in a blue moon, which is why cats like Jordan, Gretzky, Beckham and whoever your sport idol of choice is, are so highly respected and will always be remembered. ( Much like Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, fatality, heaton, etc etc ... )
So to say inconsistent Champions means for a flawed game. Well ..... you've pretty much called out every sport or competition that exists. As an example, how often do professional sports teams win their championship back to back? I mean yeah, it happens, but not often. Even in individual sports there are very, very rare cases of people just dominating, Tiger Woods Is probably one of the better examples, Michael Phelps as well, Anderson Silva etc etc. So in what case can you say that e-sports is any different? I'm Seriously struggling trying to find any.
The comment just seems very irrelevant to the thread yet quite specific, and on top of that it still made no fucking sense.
So you provide examples from nearly a dozen sports and esports of people who have won consistently, and no examples from SC2? How is that even disagreeing with me, yet alone disproving my point?
Your Original post said e-sports in general and not StarCraft 2. On top of that you kinda made yourself look silly because you have no idea what you even said in the first place. Ruh Roh *gasp*
*edit* And my argument still stands! *edit 2* MC btw, he's been fairly consistent since the game came out actually. He's had a few down swings here and there but again still quite comparable to dominating pro athletes.
On February 06 2014 15:13 Cheren wrote: Along with inconsistent champions this is a big flaw of esports where the game relies on imperfect information
That is by far the cutest thing I've read all day. Sports legacies and just purely dominant competitive figures come around once in a blue moon, which is why cats like Jordan, Gretzky, Beckham and whoever your sport idol of choice is, are so highly respected and will always be remembered. ( Much like Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, fatality, heaton, etc etc ... )
So to say inconsistent Champions means for a flawed game. Well ..... you've pretty much called out every sport or competition that exists. As an example, how often do professional sports teams win their championship back to back? I mean yeah, it happens, but not often. Even in individual sports there are very, very rare cases of people just dominating, Tiger Woods Is probably one of the better examples, Michael Phelps as well, Anderson Silva etc etc. So in what case can you say that e-sports is any different? I'm Seriously struggling trying to find any.
The comment just seems very irrelevant to the thread yet quite specific, and on top of that it still made no fucking sense.
So you provide examples from nearly a dozen sports and esports of people who have won consistently, and no examples from SC2? How is that even disagreeing with me, yet alone disproving my point?
Your Original post said e-sports in general and not StarCraft 2. On top of that you kinda made yourself look silly because you have no idea what you even said in the first place. Ruh Roh *gasp*
*edit* And my argument still stands!
esports where the game relies on imperfect information, namely starcraft 2. Learn how to post without being a dick.
On February 06 2014 15:13 Cheren wrote: Along with inconsistent champions this is a big flaw of esports where the game relies on imperfect information
That is by far the cutest thing I've read all day. Sports legacies and just purely dominant competitive figures come around once in a blue moon, which is why cats like Jordan, Gretzky, Beckham and whoever your sport idol of choice is, are so highly respected and will always be remembered. ( Much like Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, fatality, heaton, etc etc ... )
So to say inconsistent Champions means for a flawed game. Well ..... you've pretty much called out every sport or competition that exists. As an example, how often do professional sports teams win their championship back to back? I mean yeah, it happens, but not often. Even in individual sports there are very, very rare cases of people just dominating, Tiger Woods Is probably one of the better examples, Michael Phelps as well, Anderson Silva etc etc. So in what case can you say that e-sports is any different? I'm Seriously struggling trying to find any.
The comment just seems very irrelevant to the thread yet quite specific, and on top of that it still made no fucking sense.
So you provide examples from nearly a dozen sports and esports of people who have won consistently, and no examples from SC2? How is that even disagreeing with me, yet alone disproving my point?
Your Original post said e-sports in general and not StarCraft 2. On top of that you kinda made yourself look silly because you have no idea what you even said in the first place. Ruh Roh *gasp*
*edit* And my argument still stands!
esports where the game relies on imperfect information, namely starcraft 2. Learn how to post without being a dick.
Ironic because that's exactly how you came off in that post, and you know you only posted that shit to rustle some Jimmies, so don't even go there.
Your using "Consistent Champions" as a example to explain that and there is literally no connection between the two. Yeah the dickishness on my end is probably unnecessary HOWEVER openly bashing the game that the website is based around generally isn't a bright idea yeah? :D
On February 06 2014 16:23 ProBot wrote: Your using "Consistent Champions" as a example to explain that and there is literally no connection between the two. Yeah the dickishness on my end is probably unnecessary HOWEVER openly bashing the game that the website is based around generally isn't a bright idea yeah? :D
They''re both related to SC2 revolving on having imperfect information on your opponent. It's not bashing SC2, it's just a statement that SC2 needs nearly perfect soundproofing due to information being so crucial. "Inconsistent Champions" is a result of SC2 being a mix of luck and skill, and since there's no RNG, the luck part comes from imperfect information.
edit: from an interview with Idra on Kotaku.
They're [bw and sc2] both games of limited information, meaning they aren't chess, you can't see everything your opponent is doing so almost always your strategical decisions are at best educated guesses, and often totally blind guesses. To me, that's pretty bad. Too much randomness, not a ton of skill involved. Broodwar compensated for this by being incredibly mechanically difficult, it was just really really hard to get the game to do what you wanted. You had to be insanely fast and you had to know the game inside and out to compensate for all it's little quirks and clunkiness. That gave it an element of repeatable, practicable, reliable skill that rewarded people that were consistently good at that part of the game. SC2 removes a lot of that, with it's more modern interface and attempts to be casual-friendly, and I think that ended up making it too reliant on the strategy portions of the game. And as I said before, a strategy reliant game with limited information is kind of meh to me
On February 06 2014 16:23 ProBot wrote: Your using "Consistent Champions" as a example to explain that and there is literally no connection between the two. Yeah the dickishness on my end is probably unnecessary HOWEVER openly bashing the game that the website is based around generally isn't a bright idea yeah? :D
They''re both related to SC2 revolving on having imperfect information on your opponent. It's not bashing SC2, it's just a statement that SC2 needs nearly perfect soundproofing due to information being so crucial. "Inconsistent Champions" is a result of SC2 being a mix of luck and skill, and since there's no RNG, the luck part comes from imperfect information.
Ok i agree with you totally inconsistent champions in sc2 is a result of the game being a mix of luck and skill. But I still don't see where that is a problem tho, because that describes almost every mainstream competition on the planet minus like ... chess.
I think the threat of early game aggression and special attacks based on tech rushes are a really important part of the game. They rely on being hidden to some degree and players can usually scout to cross certain ones off their list. With a sound issue like this it seems to push players to not doing those strategies since they are extra risky as your opponent has an easier time figuring out if it is happening or not. That is kind of a shame.
Also for me it is a bit weird to see these players side with sportsmanship over winning. If you can hear the crowd shouldn't you be almost obvious about this and use it to your advantage? I guess this is just a different culture thing or they are trying to protect the company and maybe even their own careers seeing how GOM has handled some of the sportsmanship issues in the past. I really don't like that.
On February 06 2014 16:57 legatus legionis wrote: I think the threat of early game aggression and special attacks based on tech rushes are a really important part of the game. They rely on being hidden to some degree and players can usually scout to cross certain ones off their list. With a sound issue like this it seems to push players to not doing those strategies since they are extra risky as your opponent has an easier time figuring out if it is happening or not. That is kind of a shame.
Also for me it is a bit weird to see these players side with sportsmanship over winning. If you can hear the crowd shouldn't you be almost obvious about this and use it to your advantage? I guess this is just a different culture thing or they are trying to protect the company and maybe even their own careers seeing how GOM has handled some of the sportsmanship issues in the past. I really don't like that.
You don't like sportsmanship? It should be the first priority in a professional environment. You can't compromise morality to get ahead. That would show a lot about your character.
Bottom line is they need to fix this issue. Like others, I'm surprised this issue hasn't come up and been resolved a long time ago.
On February 06 2014 16:41 samurai80 wrote: I wouldn't say it's such a huge problem (unlike people here saying it's a disaster), but it is a problem nonetheless and should be fixed asap.
You are completely wrong. Hearing the crowd react to what is going on the game is 1. a HUGE tell. 2. very distracting. I'll stop there but honestly the list goes on for days. It is a huge problem. It is a disaster.
I think there was a WCS game where MC was scouting on whirlwind, and just missed his opponents main base, (didn't go far enough to see any buildings) when it was time for his attack he moved into the wrong conner of the map and the crowd roared with laughter. After the game in an interview he mentioned how when he heard the laughter he knew he scouted wrong and felt dumb. Nobody said anything but he admitted that he could hear the crowd. I always thought it was weird and just assumed players could sometimes hear reactions if they were loud enough...
On February 06 2014 15:10 ProBot wrote: All they need is a set of Peltors, seriously, thats literally ... all ..... they ............. need. ( added the dots for dramatic affect! )
It's a good start but you could - and should - still be able to hear calls of distress and such. They are made to protect your ears, not to make you deaf/ignorant of your surrounding. Getting a heads-up from a crowd should not be a problem without additional measures.
On February 06 2014 15:10 ProBot wrote: All they need is a set of Peltors, seriously, thats literally ... all ..... they ............. need. ( added the dots for dramatic affect! )
It's a good start but you could - and should - still be able to hear calls of distress and such. They are made to protect your ears, not to make you deaf/ignorant of your surrounding. Getting a heads-up from a crowd should not be a problem without additional measures.
Is it just me or does this scream paranoia? O.O. He's in a booth playing starcraft 2 not at a computer lab on campus or a public library or something where he might not want to be completely ignorant to his environment.. but in a booth playing sc2 at gom studio? Think its ok, man.
This is really strange, when you consider Iron Squid, for which the players (IIRC) where quite impressed by the quality of the booth's soundproofing. But this event was done by people completely new to the organization of such tournaments.
Gom has quite no excuse, they're here for a way longer time, they should get this right asap, this is really embarassing.
On February 06 2014 16:57 legatus legionis wrote: I think the threat of early game aggression and special attacks based on tech rushes are a really important part of the game. They rely on being hidden to some degree and players can usually scout to cross certain ones off their list. With a sound issue like this it seems to push players to not doing those strategies since they are extra risky as your opponent has an easier time figuring out if it is happening or not. That is kind of a shame.
Also for me it is a bit weird to see these players side with sportsmanship over winning. If you can hear the crowd shouldn't you be almost obvious about this and use it to your advantage? I guess this is just a different culture thing or they are trying to protect the company and maybe even their own careers seeing how GOM has handled some of the sportsmanship issues in the past. I really don't like that.
You don't like sportsmanship? It should be the first priority in a professional environment. You can't compromise morality to get ahead. That would show a lot about your character.
Bottom line is they need to fix this issue. Like others, I'm surprised this issue hasn't come up and been resolved a long time ago.
You(Legatius) kind of underestimate the respect profesional athletes/players have for one another. Look, EU Football/Soccer/whatever is a joke in which people screw eac other up as much as possible, but in most sports (and even in soccer/EU Football, sorry for the example) a lot of players REALLY care about each other, will step up for each other, and won't cheat to win. There's always a few rotten apples, but in general, these people show respect. Respect and a good reputation is worth a lot more than a bag of cash and a shade over your person for the rest of your life.
Or people could just accept that live play is different from online play, make it publicly known that the players can hear the crowd and let it be a legitimate part of the game, around which the players can plan in their strategies. It's absurd enough already when we have "live" play with a huge crowd supporting the players ... which the players can not hear at all, making them play in a personal vacuum filled with annoying noise. There is nothing unfair on hearing the audience if both players have the same access to the sound and previous knowledge that it will be the case.
Thats a huge problem, but at the same time my inner voice says "dont use gay builds and you wont have this problem". And yes - I know this is kinda dumb inner voice, but who cares about 1 toss when we about to have 15/16 protoss players at ro16.
On February 06 2014 17:54 opisska wrote: Or people could just accept that live play is different from online play, make it publicly known that the players can hear the crowd and let it be a legitimate part of the game, around which the players can plan in their strategies. It's absurd enough already when we have "live" play with a huge crowd supporting the players ... which the players can not hear at all, making them play in a personal vacuum filled with annoying noise. There is nothing unfair on hearing the audience if both players have the same access to the sound and previous knowledge that it will be the case.
Or GOM could just spend like 200 bucks per booth on some good headphones and in-ears. Your 'solution' is completely ridiculous.
On February 06 2014 17:54 opisska wrote: Or people could just accept that live play is different from online play, make it publicly known that the players can hear the crowd and let it be a legitimate part of the game, around which the players can plan in their strategies. It's absurd enough already when we have "live" play with a huge crowd supporting the players ... which the players can not hear at all, making them play in a personal vacuum filled with annoying noise. There is nothing unfair on hearing the audience if both players have the same access to the sound and previous knowledge that it will be the case.
Yes ! Let's just accept that we ignore one of the key part of SC2 which is the all that revole around information and the difficulty to get it !
Who scouts anyway?
No seriously, that's wrong, and though it's sad it can't be like say other sports that don't rely on information, live play is still different from online play. Players still have the crowd's feedback after the game.
On February 06 2014 17:54 opisska wrote: Or people could just accept that live play is different from online play, make it publicly known that the players can hear the crowd and let it be a legitimate part of the game, around which the players can plan in their strategies. It's absurd enough already when we have "live" play with a huge crowd supporting the players ... which the players can not hear at all, making them play in a personal vacuum filled with annoying noise. There is nothing unfair on hearing the audience if both players have the same access to the sound and previous knowledge that it will be the case.
Ummm, no? Because the game is based around the fog of war? It is like playing poker when people in the crowd can see the hole cards and tell the players... You destroy the whole premise of the game. You cannot 'play' around that.
On February 06 2014 17:54 opisska wrote: Or people could just accept that live play is different from online play, make it publicly known that the players can hear the crowd and let it be a legitimate part of the game, around which the players can plan in their strategies. It's absurd enough already when we have "live" play with a huge crowd supporting the players ... which the players can not hear at all, making them play in a personal vacuum filled with annoying noise. There is nothing unfair on hearing the audience if both players have the same access to the sound and previous knowledge that it will be the case.
I just had this dream of me playing Terran on a big stage vs a Protoss. I send my reaper scouting around the map and people are cheering me and shouting at me: "Cold...cold...colder...cold...warm...warmer...waaaarmer...hot...HOT...HOTHOTHOT!!!" And as I find the proxy dark shrine already done I wake up in cold (!) sweat.
On February 06 2014 17:54 opisska wrote: Or people could just accept that live play is different from online play, make it publicly known that the players can hear the crowd and let it be a legitimate part of the game, around which the players can plan in their strategies. It's absurd enough already when we have "live" play with a huge crowd supporting the players ... which the players can not hear at all, making them play in a personal vacuum filled with annoying noise. There is nothing unfair on hearing the audience if both players have the same access to the sound and previous knowledge that it will be the case.
wtf? what a joke. It's a strategy game. If your opponent knows what you're doing it's most of the time GG unless you out play him extensively. lol @ 'absurd enough playing at a live event' It's their choice to play at a live event, you think they actually hate playing in front of a huge crowd? They actually like playing in front of supporters.. Might as well let them listen to casters and give them no fog of war amirite? /sarcasm Geez, we need a thumbs down button for posts like these.
There have been complains about this since forever. From intel classics to Jinro over Naniwa to what is currently being complained about. I really hope that GOM gets their shit together and I love Rain even more for reacting the way he did.
On February 06 2014 12:23 Yorkie wrote: This brings back fond memories of Huk building a mothership against SeleCT at MLG and when the crowd inevitably went wild he said "Don't worry, that's just Halo"
This is quite surprising news to me.. I always assumed it was fairly easy to soundproof a booth like that - and on top of that the noisecancelling headphones. Quite shocking indeed. I certainly hope this gets fixed immediately! As someone else pointed out in the thread, the tournament loses integrity because of this. I'm sure that it is definitely NOT the point of casting for the players to hear what is being said, I mean, they don't allow hacks do they? Anyway, I thought the GSL was the biggest/best SC2 tournament in existence. So for this to happen is quite frankly an outrage. You would think that soundproofing would be somewhat highly prioritized... Surely this will be fixed...
On February 06 2014 16:57 legatus legionis wrote: I think the threat of early game aggression and special attacks based on tech rushes are a really important part of the game. They rely on being hidden to some degree and players can usually scout to cross certain ones off their list. With a sound issue like this it seems to push players to not doing those strategies since they are extra risky as your opponent has an easier time figuring out if it is happening or not. That is kind of a shame.
Also for me it is a bit weird to see these players side with sportsmanship over winning. If you can hear the crowd shouldn't you be almost obvious about this and use it to your advantage? I guess this is just a different culture thing or they are trying to protect the company and maybe even their own careers seeing how GOM has handled some of the sportsmanship issues in the past. I really don't like that.
You don't like sportsmanship? It should be the first priority in a professional environment. You can't compromise morality to get ahead. That would show a lot about your character.
Bottom line is they need to fix this issue. Like others, I'm surprised this issue hasn't come up and been resolved a long time ago.
You(Legatius) kind of underestimate the respect profesional athletes/players have for one another. Look, EU Football/Soccer/whatever is a joke in which people screw eac other up as much as possible, but in most sports (and even in soccer/EU Football, sorry for the example) a lot of players REALLY care about each other, will step up for each other, and won't cheat to win. There's always a few rotten apples, but in general, these people show respect. Respect and a good reputation is worth a lot more than a bag of cash and a shade over your person for the rest of your life.
Don't generalize, starcraft have their share of unsportmanship from big things like Savior to small things like Xlord.
All sports have their bad sportpersonas and good sportpersonas
On February 06 2014 20:18 DnCL wrote: This makes me wonder, how is it done for live poker ? Crowds have screens and see the TV feed, right ? To they simply count on the crowd being quiet ?
The audience don't have a live feed, all streams and TV are delayed by a minimum 15 mins, usually an hour (for eveyone, not just the live audience). The audience are as much in the dark as the other players, more so even, since they don't know anyone's hole cards.
On February 06 2014 16:57 legatus legionis wrote: I think the threat of early game aggression and special attacks based on tech rushes are a really important part of the game. They rely on being hidden to some degree and players can usually scout to cross certain ones off their list. With a sound issue like this it seems to push players to not doing those strategies since they are extra risky as your opponent has an easier time figuring out if it is happening or not. That is kind of a shame.
Also for me it is a bit weird to see these players side with sportsmanship over winning. If you can hear the crowd shouldn't you be almost obvious about this and use it to your advantage? I guess this is just a different culture thing or they are trying to protect the company and maybe even their own careers seeing how GOM has handled some of the sportsmanship issues in the past. I really don't like that.
You don't like sportsmanship? It should be the first priority in a professional environment. You can't compromise morality to get ahead. That would show a lot about your character.
Bottom line is they need to fix this issue. Like others, I'm surprised this issue hasn't come up and been resolved a long time ago.
You(Legatius) kind of underestimate the respect profesional athletes/players have for one another. Look, EU Football/Soccer/whatever is a joke in which people screw eac other up as much as possible, but in most sports (and even in soccer/EU Football, sorry for the example) a lot of players REALLY care about each other, will step up for each other, and won't cheat to win. There's always a few rotten apples, but in general, these people show respect. Respect and a good reputation is worth a lot more than a bag of cash and a shade over your person for the rest of your life.
Don't generalize, starcraft have their share of unsportmanship from big things like Savior to small things like Xlord.
All sports have their bad sportpersonas and good sportpersonas
I specifically wrote there's always a few rotten apples.......!? Your comment confuses me.
The crowd thing is hard because nothing is going to cancel our that noise or vibration. Players talk about there screen shacking during big plays and no booth is going to fix that. Headphones will help, but like in baseball, I think the crowd is part of the field.
Also, the studio could go the golf route and request that people keep their voices down during proxy plays. I think of the casters hyped the part about not giving the strat away, the crowd could get really into it.
On February 07 2014 00:45 Plansix wrote: The crowd thing is hard because nothing is going to cancel our that noise or vibration. Players talk about there screen shacking during big plays and no booth is going to fix that. Headphones will help, but like in baseball, I think the crowd is part of the field.
Also, the studio could go the golf route and request that people keep their voices down during proxy plays. I think of the casters hyped the part about not giving the strat away, the crowd could get really into it.
I remember such cases, but it was in really small tournaments, like "Oh hey, noticed that people? It's going to be X, but don't cheer too loud so they don't know !"
It is a simpler solution than making sound proof booths. At some point the players are going to be infront of crowds so large that no booth will be able to handle the noise. The best route is to have the casters and studio try to build up the tension and request the crowd respect the players and keep their cheering until after the proxy strat has resolved. I think it would be fun for the crowd, since it would be like they are in on the strat and are "helping" keep the players in the dark for eachothers moves.
On February 07 2014 01:00 Plansix wrote: It is a simpler solution than making sound proof booths. At some point the players are going to be infront of crowds so large that no booth will be able to handle the noise. The best route is to have the casters and studio try to build up the tension and request the crowd respect the players and keep their cheering until after the proxy strat has resolved. I think it would be fun for the crowd, since it would be like they are in on the strat and are "helping" keep the players in the dark for eachothers moves.
Even booths may not be able to handle the noise after a certain point, granted, but a combo of solid headset over earphones has proven quite effective and doesn't rely on the human element at all. ^^;
The best way to handle it is to tell the crowd to go back at home to watch the stream. In fact, some players are uncomfortable playing while thousand of people are looking at the stream. In order to let them play their best, for esport's sake, close your stream !
On February 06 2014 13:16 Lucid_Interval wrote: I've noticed that the hand warmers have made a reappearance at GSL as well. It was always strange to me that they could pay Korean pro gamers salaries and winnings but can't give them a warm place to play... Looks like soundproofing isn't much of a priority either... Unfortunate.
its cold in korea + harm warmers are used to warm up regardless of temperature. if they had heating for the winter tournaments and ac for the summer tournaments gom would probably go broke off those bills alone
If you can't pay for AC / Heating for a live venue.... I don't know what to say about this, that's ridiculous.
AC/Heating in a large open area where there's bound to be numerous places heat will escape (open doors, windows etc.) costs a fortune.
The crowd will follow the caster's lead for the most part, and the Korean casters start screaming when a cheese in in progress. I think if the started whispering it would work.
On February 06 2014 13:16 Lucid_Interval wrote: I've noticed that the hand warmers have made a reappearance at GSL as well. It was always strange to me that they could pay Korean pro gamers salaries and winnings but can't give them a warm place to play... Looks like soundproofing isn't much of a priority either... Unfortunate.
its cold in korea + harm warmers are used to warm up regardless of temperature. if they had heating for the winter tournaments and ac for the summer tournaments gom would probably go broke off those bills alone
If you can't pay for AC / Heating for a live venue.... I don't know what to say about this, that's ridiculous.
AC/Heating in a large open area where there's bound to be numerous places heat will escape (open doors, windows etc.) costs a fortune.
You realize that nearly every technology related business in the developed world offers this in their venues and offices right? Yes it costs alot but that's to be expected when people need their hands to be adequately warmed to work on their computers, let alone play a super micro intensive match. If you can't expect that from the most premier SC2 venue in S.Korea I don't know what to tell you.
- Orient sound system so audio coverage is adequate in the audience area, but minimal on stage. Use a distributed sound system, with ceiling mounted speakers if possible - Lower overall volume of casters - Use high Sound Transmission Class rated construction and materials for booths (double paned glass, sealed doorway, etc). - Introduce sound masking white/pink noise inside the booth via speakers -Use sound isolation head set/ear muffs (like used for firearms, around loud mechanical equipment, etc) on top of ear buds.
The sound booth is the least important part of the equation, and to make a booth that actually was somewhat good at isolating exterior sound would require a lot of money and effort.
On February 06 2014 12:20 Adebisi wrote: Just about everywhere else couples helicopter headsets with the booths, not sure why Gom chooses not to...
Those things are so goddamn uncomfortable.
who cares? this ruins the tournament
Whoa. Holy shit. Who cares about players being uncomfortable - it ruins the tournament.
First off, it didn't ruin anything, all it really did was make Rain feel kinda weird at one point and raise a topic for discussion, which is a good thing. Probably needs to be fixed but not at an expense of players like u suggest. Things that ruin a tournament would be more severe like I dont know, IPL going bankrupt after qualifying their players for their tournament. Unwatchable streams in some leagues. 20% uptime etc.. No sound in games.
Apart from that. Who cares about players being uncomfortable? Gee I don't know. People with ANY sense of compassion? Non-psychopaths? People thinking that all those tournaments and players aren't doing it ONLY for AnonymousSC2's god damn entertainment? World doesn't revolve around you.
While you're at it, let's put players on kidney dialysis so they don't have to go for toilet breaks which ruin the tournament. Who cares right? Let's put them in isolated cages miles from civilization to make SURE they don't get a slightest hint from the crowd's reactions. Uncomfortable? who cares. at least the tournaments are pure.
Grow some heart. Players' comfort is just as important as viewer's. Hell, without player's comfort there won't be good games for the viewers. It's not ALL made just for you, AnonymousSC2. This ain't your f****ng circus and the players ain't your f****ng monkeys.
On February 06 2014 13:16 Lucid_Interval wrote: I've noticed that the hand warmers have made a reappearance at GSL as well. It was always strange to me that they could pay Korean pro gamers salaries and winnings but can't give them a warm place to play... Looks like soundproofing isn't much of a priority either... Unfortunate.
its cold in korea + harm warmers are used to warm up regardless of temperature. if they had heating for the winter tournaments and ac for the summer tournaments gom would probably go broke off those bills alone
If you can't pay for AC / Heating for a live venue.... I don't know what to say about this, that's ridiculous.
AC/Heating in a large open area where there's bound to be numerous places heat will escape (open doors, windows etc.) costs a fortune.
You realize that nearly every technology related business in the developed world offers this in their venues and offices right? Yes it costs alot but that's to be expected when people need their hands to be adequately warmed to work on their computers, let alone play a super micro intensive match. If you can't expect that from the most premier SC2 venue in S.Korea I don't know what to tell you.
Or players can use had warmers. My fiancé plays in a band they have to play in whatever conditions are at the venue and most of them are chilly. And playing guitar on stage with cold hands sucks. As long as the venue is a reasonable, livable tempture, the players can suck it up and find ways to keep their hands warm.
Edit: to the post above: players can suck it up and wear headphones. They are not being asked to play the game over hot coals.
On February 07 2014 03:42 Plansix wrote: Edit: to the post above: players can suck it up and wear headphones. They are not being asked to play the game over hot coals.
You missed the point. I talked baout the idea of not caring about player's comfort, not about the headphones. Yes, those examples I used were sarcastic, glad you made up your own ones too. My point was about the big difference in saying :
"Who cares [about player's comfort]?" and saying "I think proper headphones are crucial. The players should be able to handle that since they call themselves professionals."
Also your statement (about sucking up etc.) was perfectly fine. Second statement and your statement both say it's probably uncomfortable thing for them but necessary. First statement (the one I criticised) says 'who gives a f*** about players'.
I'm just allergic to pure self-admitted ignorance. And nothing screams ignorance more than starting your sentence with "who cares about ...".
About keeping your hands warm... I think Gumiho is miles ahead of everyone :D towel>any hand warmers
On February 06 2014 12:20 Adebisi wrote: Just about everywhere else couples helicopter headsets with the booths, not sure why Gom chooses not to...
Those things are so goddamn uncomfortable.
who cares? this ruins the tournament
Whoa. Holy shit. Who cares about players being uncomfortable - it ruins the tournament.
First off, it didn't ruin anything, all it really did was make Rain feel kinda weird at one point and raise a topic for discussion, which is a good thing. Probably needs to be fixed but not at an expense of players like u suggest. Things that ruin a tournament would be more severe like I dont know, IPL going bankrupt after qualifying their players for their tournament. Unwatchable streams in some leagues. 20% uptime etc.. No sound in games.
Apart from that. Who cares about players being uncomfortable? Gee I don't know. People with ANY sense of compassion? Non-psychopaths? People thinking that all those tournaments and players aren't doing it ONLY for AnonymousSC2's god damn entertainment? World doesn't revolve around you.
While you're at it, let's put players on kidney dialysis so they don't have to go for toilet breaks which ruin the tournament. Who cares right? Let's put them in isolated cages miles from civilization to make SURE they don't get a slightest hint from the crowd's reactions. Uncomfortable? who cares. at least the tournaments are pure.
Grow some heart. Players' comfort is just as important as viewer's. Hell, without player's comfort there won't be good games for the viewers. It's not ALL made just for you, AnonymousSC2. This ain't your f****ng circus and the players ain't your f****ng monkeys.
We should build the next GOM studio as an add on to the IST, That way players can be suspended in space where there is no air to vibrate and produce sound! Problem solved, ill take my check in the mail whenever you are ready GOM!
On January 28 2014 21:16 ChoiSulli wrote: Hey now that ESF is dead Kespa can go back to boycotting GOM eventually, I think commander Stork just planting the first seed.
I said this back when Stork first made the complaint, I was called crazy then probably will still be called crazy now but the plot thickens.
On February 07 2014 00:45 Plansix wrote: The crowd thing is hard because nothing is going to cancel our that noise or vibration. Players talk about there screen shacking during big plays and no booth is going to fix that. Headphones will help, but like in baseball, I think the crowd is part of the field.
Also, the studio could go the golf route and request that people keep their voices down during proxy plays. I think of the casters hyped the part about not giving the strat away, the crowd could get really into it.
I remember such cases, but it was in really small tournaments, like "Oh hey, noticed that people? It's going to be X, but don't cheer too loud so they don't know !"
I remember the casters doing that in the IEM Ace won. I think when they were talking about Moonglade's Nydus worm and if Ace would find it.
In any case, crowd noise can be ambiguous as well. So I think a little noise / vibration can be ok. Especially if we can get the crowds into it enough that a random booth-shattering cheer could come about without anything special happening in the game.
For Rain's perspective the crowd could go wild if Hero missed the scout by a pixel just as easily as they would with him finding it. Of course for Hero the crowd randomly going wild while he scouts would be a bit of a give-away...
Actually that's exactly what happened to Jinro, the commentators went wild that he missed Idra's lings so he double scouted and shut down the 6-pool.
Sound proofing will always be an issue and you can't really do much about it. You could have the players wear 3 different pieces of headgear and put metallica at 11 on their headphones. If the audience screams loud enough you'll still hear them. It would literally take moving the players into another part of the building or have them play off sight to solve this "problem." Doing that makes the entire experience for the audience really horrible and they might as well just sit at home. The NFL doesn't enforce the noise rule they have anymore because they are afraid people will stop buying tickets to the games. One Seahawks game that set world record was around 131 decibels. I think the players in sc2 have it better because at least your hearing is protected to a degree. You don't have all the sound bouncing around a stadium in your ear.
On February 07 2014 14:16 Baarn wrote: Sound proofing will always be an issue and you can't really do much about it. You could have the players wear 3 different pieces of headgear and put metallica at 11 on their headphones. If the audience screams loud enough you'll still hear them. It would literally take moving the players into another part of the building or have them play off sight to solve this "problem." Doing that makes the entire experience for the audience really horrible and they might as well just sit at home. The NFL doesn't enforce the noise rule they have anymore because they are afraid people will stop buying tickets to the games. One Seahawks game that set world record was around 131 decibels. I think the players in sc2 have it better because at least your hearing is protected to a degree. You don't have all the sound bouncing around a stadium in your ear.
This.
People are always trying their best to improve this issue (Remember Megastation? If you played at that venue today tons of people will rage for noise issues).
We went from playing in the open space to having professional booths, earmuffs, white noise, music playing in the background (at OGN), etc. to try to lower the soundproof issue. They're trying their best, and the only thing they can do from here is to improve their soundproofing system if they think that its becoming an issue.
On February 06 2014 12:20 Adebisi wrote: Just about everywhere else couples helicopter headsets with the booths, not sure why Gom chooses not to...
Those things are so goddamn uncomfortable.
who cares? this ruins the tournament
LOL you must be joking. SC is such an intense game.. These pros need 100% concentration to perform at the level they do. Just look at flash and his ruler. He measures everything to the last centimeter. Nothing is out of place. He creates the same environment in the booth that he practices in for continuity. Uncomfortable headsets can just throw the whole thing off as it can lead to headaches, itching and a bunch of other shit that just wont allow players to play at their peak potential.
Just imagine playing with a splinter on your foot.. might as well be the same thing lol
I'm just confused why this is still an issue..... Esports has been going strong for like 12-13 years now. Shouldn't this have been figured out by now / become an industry standard or something?
On February 06 2014 12:20 Adebisi wrote: Just about everywhere else couples helicopter headsets with the booths, not sure why Gom chooses not to...
Those things are so goddamn uncomfortable.
who cares? this ruins the tournament
LOL you must be joking. SC is such an intense game.. These pros need 100% concentration to perform at the level they do. Just look at flash and his ruler. He measures everything to the last centimeter. Nothing is out of place. He creates the same environment in the booth that he practices in for continuity. Uncomfortable headsets can just throw the whole thing off as it can lead to headaches, itching and a bunch of other shit that just wont allow players to play at their peak potential.
Just imagine playing with a splinter on your foot.. might as well be the same thing lol
I'm just confused why this is still an issue..... Esports has been going strong for like 12-13 years now. Shouldn't this have been figured out by now / become an industry standard or something?
Since completely blocking sound is impossible, no? The headphones are the best way limit it's effects. That's why coaches wear them during football games, because it is loud. If players don't want to wear headphones, the problem can't be solved.
On February 06 2014 12:20 Adebisi wrote: Just about everywhere else couples helicopter headsets with the booths, not sure why Gom chooses not to...
Those things are so goddamn uncomfortable.
who cares? this ruins the tournament
LOL you must be joking. SC is such an intense game.. These pros need 100% concentration to perform at the level they do. Just look at flash and his ruler. He measures everything to the last centimeter. Nothing is out of place. He creates the same environment in the booth that he practices in for continuity. Uncomfortable headsets can just throw the whole thing off as it can lead to headaches, itching and a bunch of other shit that just wont allow players to play at their peak potential.
Just imagine playing with a splinter on your foot.. might as well be the same thing lol
I'm just confused why this is still an issue..... Esports has been going strong for like 12-13 years now. Shouldn't this have been figured out by now / become an industry standard or something?
If players have to wear headsets, ALL of them have to wear headsets. That makes it fair, no?
Guys, I'm a noob when it comes to sound but the Bose active sound cancelling headphones I was using the other day were really really good.. can't they use something like that? IN combination with a "soundproof" booth and the in game sounds it just seems like it should be enough no? They were really comfy too.
EDIT -what Snute wrote about the details of how they do the sound proofing at GOM just seems like waaay too much hassle and it sounds really distracting (which he said it was). Why not use active soundproofing?
TotalBiscuit addressed this in the OP: noise cancellation technology is good for constant background noise, not for sudden audience cheers or random commentator screeches.
The reason they do the jarring echo-y background is probably so it's impossible to focus on anything out of the game (and arguable even for things in the game, but it certainly explains people who are terrible in the booth and awesome online huh?).
On February 08 2014 08:43 DinoMight wrote: Guys, I'm a noob when it comes to sound but the Bose active sound cancelling headphones I was using the other day were really really good.. can't they use something like that? IN combination with a "soundproof" booth and the in game sounds it just seems like it should be enough no? They were really comfy too.
EDIT -what Snute wrote about the details of how they do the sound proofing at GOM just seems like waaay too much hassle and it sounds really distracting (which he said it was). Why not use active soundproofing?
The booths aren't 'soundproof" at all. Sure it stops some sound but wood is a very efficient conductor of long wavelength vibrations. They could make new booths with double walls with sills separated by several centimeters and staggered studs, which are nailed each to their respective sills, and which are not opposite each other to make them more "soundproof." Without damping material in place it will still vibrate. Lead would remove resonance but its rather expensive. Most large studios average around 30db in reduction and they have huge budgets. At the end of the day no matter what techniques you use to "soundproof" if there is one leak it's over.
Gom could reduce audience size to combat the noise. They could isolate the casters and play music or game sounds at volume to drown the audience screams. Bass heavy music (KPOP works too )would at least kill roars from the audience while the rest of your damping nukes the high frequencies. It's up to gom to figure out what they want to do though not me. I wish them and the players luck.
Just put the players in the next building (like inside a silo or so) and have them sing their national anthem at the top of their voice continuously throughout the games. We'll have the best gamers and the best opera singers in cyberspace before the end of WSC Season 3!
What an awful position for Rain to be in, jeez. And knowing how... professional Koreans can be, for lack of a better word, I can only imagine how many times this has actually impacted a game.
I guess it's time to bring in the helicopter headset. Doesn't sound like anything else will fix it.
On March 15 2014 03:50 sixfour wrote: i guess actually having the players in a different room to the crowd is too difficult a solution to implement
Not very aesthetically pleasing, albeit practical. Something about the booths being in the same room as the big screen and the crowd makes the events more complete. It's like going to a live sporting event versus watching it, knowing it's live, but not fully being there.
Too much of a disconnect from the players and the crowds just doesn't work - See NASL.
EPT
SKT_Rain became the third progamer to put in a complaint. Though he was able to eventually advance out of his group in second place, he suffered a 0-2 loss to ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/GSL/rainhergif1.gif)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/GSL/rainhergif2.gif)
Red Bull Battle Grounds New York City did this by using in-ears combined with a headset playing white noise on top and it worked out great.
