On February 07 2014 08:08 Eliezar wrote: Its funny to see so many positive comments about War3 here. When War3 was out the general Broodwar response to it was how it was so inferior to Broodwar. You even heard a ton of that from Artosis and Tasteless in the first 4-5 GSL seasons always talking about how the former Broodwar players were just better than the War3 players and insulting the game.
Now you have the same thing. Sorry to say but StarCraft 2 is so much better than Broodwar it isn't funny. Although I think we took two steps in the wrong direction in HotS (Swarmhost and widowmines - oh my when they also detected...) just like Blizzard put in some bad unit choices when Broodwar came out (Corsair, Valk, Medic - healing rate, Lurker) as well. I think overall the game is better unlike Broodwar and the design team has done a great job.
Some things that StarCraft 2 really improved on Broodwar on:
1) Mobility of Terran and Protoss (this was very limited in Broodwar, game plays more fluidly and quicker). 2) Reducing Terran macro to LOL easy, Protoss to easy, and zerg to moderate. They also added in a skill element to each class to reward multitasking in the Mule, Chronoboost, and Larvae Inject, but the Larvae inject is more difficult than the other two.
I feel like it isn't a matter of better or worse games, because everyone will always have a different opinion. Having a more mobile Terran and Protoss army, for example, doesn't make SC2 better. It grays the areas that define races, forcing the designers to define the races in other ways (the macro-mechanics you mentioned + hocus-pocus, free units and tomfoolery now define the races). If you prefer that, it's on you, but please don't tell me apples are better than oranges.
There are problems with more things than just Swarmhosts and Widow-mines. Practically every new unit and mechanic for SC2 has had balancing issues, because their designs are so outrageously different from their Broodwar equivalent. Then there are units like the sentry, MULE and mothership-core that have no Broodwar equivalent. These are a nightmare for balance because they all seem to heavily affect the feel of the game. It doesn't always feel right and it almost never feels like Broodwar.
well, at least they gave reasons for what they did but I will always hold the opinion that WG should be changes so that there is more time with pylon distance and so that it takes less time to make units from gateway like terran players. ff, well, I dunno what to change for that, maybe that it's killable or smaller area or time etc...
On February 07 2014 08:08 Eliezar wrote: Its funny to see so many positive comments about War3 here. When War3 was out the general Broodwar response to it was how it was so inferior to Broodwar. You even heard a ton of that from Artosis and Tasteless in the first 4-5 GSL seasons always talking about how the former Broodwar players were just better than the War3 players and insulting the game.
Now you have the same thing. Sorry to say but StarCraft 2 is so much better than Broodwar it isn't funny. Although I think we took two steps in the wrong direction in HotS (Swarmhost and widowmines - oh my when they also detected...) just like Blizzard put in some bad unit choices when Broodwar came out (Corsair, Valk, Medic - healing rate, Lurker) as well. I think overall the game is better unlike Broodwar and the design team has done a great job.
Some things that StarCraft 2 really improved on Broodwar on:
1) Mobility of Terran and Protoss (this was very limited in Broodwar, game plays more fluidly and quicker). 2) Reducing Terran macro to LOL easy, Protoss to easy, and zerg to moderate. They also added in a skill element to each class to reward multitasking in the Mule, Chronoboost, and Larvae Inject, but the Larvae inject is more difficult than the other two. ...
this has to be a troll lol. While you're entitled to your opinion of which game is best, the fact that you think corsairs, medics' healing rate and lurkers are bad unit choices is cringe-worthy. Corsairs opened up more strat and made the Bisu build viable. Outside of that, we see disruption web used every once in a while so they have some use albeit limited in PvT. The unit is used almost every PvZ and corsair+reaver is such an entertaining strat to watch though it is hard to pull off. Medics are essential in TvZ and they likely increased the rate because it was slower than they had in mind. The new rate is fine as is considering just how strong cracklings and plague/dark swarm is late game.
As for lurkers, they make for the best micro situations. They are good to be offensive with as well as defensive and you can deal with them if you make the right decisions. Can't say much for valk although I've always liked the unit and while it's pretty strong in number, the sprite bug ensures that too many of them won't become OP(unintentional bug, glitches so unit doesn't fire lol so limit their #). After reading your improvements, especially #2, I'm almost confident you're trolling now XD
I'm pleasantly surprised to find myself quite happy with what David Kim said. Of course he's a man who knows how to talk and he can say what he wants about the oracle buff, I'm still convinced it was dumb shit, but overall I can see where he's heading and that doesn't seem too bad to me. Let's see what future holds in store but I feel more and more confident we'll reach again a rather satisfying state of the game.
On February 07 2014 09:21 BigFan wrote: well, at least they gave reasons for what they did but I will always hold the opinion that WG should be changes so that there is more time with pylon distance and so that it takes less time to make units from gateway like terran players. ff, well, I dunno what to change for that, maybe that it's killable or smaller area or time etc...
On February 07 2014 08:08 Eliezar wrote: Its funny to see so many positive comments about War3 here. When War3 was out the general Broodwar response to it was how it was so inferior to Broodwar. You even heard a ton of that from Artosis and Tasteless in the first 4-5 GSL seasons always talking about how the former Broodwar players were just better than the War3 players and insulting the game.
Now you have the same thing. Sorry to say but StarCraft 2 is so much better than Broodwar it isn't funny. Although I think we took two steps in the wrong direction in HotS (Swarmhost and widowmines - oh my when they also detected...) just like Blizzard put in some bad unit choices when Broodwar came out (Corsair, Valk, Medic - healing rate, Lurker) as well. I think overall the game is better unlike Broodwar and the design team has done a great job.
Some things that StarCraft 2 really improved on Broodwar on:
1) Mobility of Terran and Protoss (this was very limited in Broodwar, game plays more fluidly and quicker). 2) Reducing Terran macro to LOL easy, Protoss to easy, and zerg to moderate. They also added in a skill element to each class to reward multitasking in the Mule, Chronoboost, and Larvae Inject, but the Larvae inject is more difficult than the other two. ...
this has to be a troll lol. While you're entitled to your opinion of which game is best, the fact that you think corsairs, medics' healing rate and lurkers are bad unit choices is cringe-worthy. Corsairs opened up more strat and made the Bisu build viable. Outside of that, we see disruption web used every once in a while so they have some use albeit limited in PvT. The unit is used almost every PvZ and corsair+reaver is such an entertaining strat to watch though it is hard to pull off. Medics are essential in TvZ and they likely increased the rate because it was slower than they had in mind. The new rate is fine as is considering just how strong cracklings and plague/dark swarm is late game.
As for lurkers, they make for the best micro situations. They are good to be offensive with as well as defensive and you can deal with them if you make the right decisions. Can't say much for valk although I've always liked the unit and while it's pretty strong in number, the sprite bug ensures that too many of them won't become OP(unintentional bug, glitches so unit doesn't fire lol so limit their #). After reading your improvements, especially #2, I'm almost confident you're trolling now XD
I don't feel like forcefields are a problem for PvP, and having too many sentries will kill you in some situations. They're only a problem in non-mirror M/U because Terran can't use a thor reliably in TvP as an answer to FF and Zerg can't do anything until hive. FF isn't really a big deal for Protoss now, because with MSC, they can get high-ground vision anyway, or simply escape. The forcefield is one of those filthy design decisions that force Blizzard into coming up with a million stupid ideas to counteract. Once they come up empty, because it's still possible to deal with, they say, "ok, let's pretend that you can bait forcefields as an effective countermeasure and let's drag out the game so that the realistic solutions become available". Too much fail going on in the design to actually balance some of the shit.
On February 07 2014 09:27 [PkF] Wire wrote: I'm pleasantly surprised to find myself quite happy with what David Kim said. Of course he's a man who knows how to talk and he can say what he wants about the oracle buff, I'm still convinced it was dumb shit, but overall I can see where he's heading and that doesn't seem too bad to me. Let's see what future holds in store but I feel more and more confident we'll reach again a rather satisfying state of the game.
I don't know how this is a pleasant surprise. It's more of the same question-dodging and "we don't know" answers that we've become accustomed to.
On February 06 2014 19:51 dargul wrote: Lets poll and see if common players still trust Kim, or may be he is incompetent and must leave this game for god sake.
Poll: You opinion about David Kim as balance designer
Yeh he is awsome. (29)
15%
He is slowpoke but ok. (23)
12%
He is killing sc2 with his incompetence. (131)
66%
I don't care i play moba already. (17)
9%
200 total votes
Your vote: You opinion about David Kim as balance designer
(Vote): Yeh he is awsome. (Vote): He is slowpoke but ok. (Vote): He is killing sc2 with his incompetence. (Vote): I don't care i play moba already.
I think result is pretty obvious. I hope that kim will notice this and change something in his behaviour...
I actually understood some of the reasons under the changes they carried on doing and some other changes they're reluctant to do. Doesn't mean I think everything's perfect but I feel the answers were more interesting than what you hint at.
On February 07 2014 06:46 Valikyr wrote: Even Protoss players don't like warp gates and forcefields (I am one of them). I just don't get why Blizzard is so proud about the design of that and won't ever think of changing something about them. The Starbow solution where not all units can be warped in is a great change that means warp gates has a drawback and you need to have both gateways and warp gates.
What if only zealots and DT's could be warped in to keep the unique harassment options with pylons and warp prisms but stalkers/sentries/HT's needs to be produced normally? Certainly makes macro a lot harder and doesn't take away any unique feel of the race.
I am a protoss player and I like force fields. Sorry to destroy your world view.
On February 07 2014 09:21 BigFan wrote: well, at least they gave reasons for what they did but I will always hold the opinion that WG should be changes so that there is more time with pylon distance and so that it takes less time to make units from gateway like terran players. ff, well, I dunno what to change for that, maybe that it's killable or smaller area or time etc...
On February 07 2014 08:08 Eliezar wrote: Its funny to see so many positive comments about War3 here. When War3 was out the general Broodwar response to it was how it was so inferior to Broodwar. You even heard a ton of that from Artosis and Tasteless in the first 4-5 GSL seasons always talking about how the former Broodwar players were just better than the War3 players and insulting the game.
Now you have the same thing. Sorry to say but StarCraft 2 is so much better than Broodwar it isn't funny. Although I think we took two steps in the wrong direction in HotS (Swarmhost and widowmines - oh my when they also detected...) just like Blizzard put in some bad unit choices when Broodwar came out (Corsair, Valk, Medic - healing rate, Lurker) as well. I think overall the game is better unlike Broodwar and the design team has done a great job.
Some things that StarCraft 2 really improved on Broodwar on:
1) Mobility of Terran and Protoss (this was very limited in Broodwar, game plays more fluidly and quicker). 2) Reducing Terran macro to LOL easy, Protoss to easy, and zerg to moderate. They also added in a skill element to each class to reward multitasking in the Mule, Chronoboost, and Larvae Inject, but the Larvae inject is more difficult than the other two. ...
this has to be a troll lol. While you're entitled to your opinion of which game is best, the fact that you think corsairs, medics' healing rate and lurkers are bad unit choices is cringe-worthy. Corsairs opened up more strat and made the Bisu build viable. Outside of that, we see disruption web used every once in a while so they have some use albeit limited in PvT. The unit is used almost every PvZ and corsair+reaver is such an entertaining strat to watch though it is hard to pull off. Medics are essential in TvZ and they likely increased the rate because it was slower than they had in mind. The new rate is fine as is considering just how strong cracklings and plague/dark swarm is late game.
As for lurkers, they make for the best micro situations. They are good to be offensive with as well as defensive and you can deal with them if you make the right decisions. Can't say much for valk although I've always liked the unit and while it's pretty strong in number, the sprite bug ensures that too many of them won't become OP(unintentional bug, glitches so unit doesn't fire lol so limit their #). After reading your improvements, especially #2, I'm almost confident you're trolling now XD
In what way did corsair 'open' up more strategies? I think its some fault in saying that. Corsair is mandatory in pvz. If you dont make corsairs u die.
Every unit that is added 'opens' up strategy.
Myself think its funnier to watch a protoss who doesnt go stargate. Relie more on archon to defend mutas etc(But it doesnt work anymore)
The medic healing rate is so powerful that its almost mandatory to go aoe. Or maybe its the marine. Or both. Is this 'good' design?
I like the medic, and i like the lurker but they both are hardcounter in broodwar more or less. Yes, i call medic hardcounter, cant found a better word.
On February 07 2014 05:42 Aserrin wrote: I'm pretty sure amateur players, pros and viewers are pretty aligned on what they want from the game. Blizzard wants something completely different and are acting corporatively, dismissing every other opinion and just giving automatic responses (like in this thread) justifying their awful decisions and planning.
Nope. Some people act like it's unanimously agreed that Brood War is a better game than Starcraft II for example, which is not the case. Some people act like everyone agrees that Swarm Hosts are boring, while this is not the case. Some people think everyone agrees when they say that Protoss is overpowered, but this isn't the case either. People really don't agree on much of anything. The people with the loudest voices sometimes make it seem like a lot of people are in agreement, but that's an illusion most of the time.
Not being unanimous =! Not having any kind of agreement
On February 07 2014 09:21 BigFan wrote: well, at least they gave reasons for what they did but I will always hold the opinion that WG should be changes so that there is more time with pylon distance and so that it takes less time to make units from gateway like terran players. ff, well, I dunno what to change for that, maybe that it's killable or smaller area or time etc...
On February 07 2014 08:08 Eliezar wrote: Its funny to see so many positive comments about War3 here. When War3 was out the general Broodwar response to it was how it was so inferior to Broodwar. You even heard a ton of that from Artosis and Tasteless in the first 4-5 GSL seasons always talking about how the former Broodwar players were just better than the War3 players and insulting the game.
Now you have the same thing. Sorry to say but StarCraft 2 is so much better than Broodwar it isn't funny. Although I think we took two steps in the wrong direction in HotS (Swarmhost and widowmines - oh my when they also detected...) just like Blizzard put in some bad unit choices when Broodwar came out (Corsair, Valk, Medic - healing rate, Lurker) as well. I think overall the game is better unlike Broodwar and the design team has done a great job.
Some things that StarCraft 2 really improved on Broodwar on:
1) Mobility of Terran and Protoss (this was very limited in Broodwar, game plays more fluidly and quicker). 2) Reducing Terran macro to LOL easy, Protoss to easy, and zerg to moderate. They also added in a skill element to each class to reward multitasking in the Mule, Chronoboost, and Larvae Inject, but the Larvae inject is more difficult than the other two. ...
this has to be a troll lol. While you're entitled to your opinion of which game is best, the fact that you think corsairs, medics' healing rate and lurkers are bad unit choices is cringe-worthy. Corsairs opened up more strat and made the Bisu build viable. Outside of that, we see disruption web used every once in a while so they have some use albeit limited in PvT. The unit is used almost every PvZ and corsair+reaver is such an entertaining strat to watch though it is hard to pull off. Medics are essential in TvZ and they likely increased the rate because it was slower than they had in mind. The new rate is fine as is considering just how strong cracklings and plague/dark swarm is late game.
As for lurkers, they make for the best micro situations. They are good to be offensive with as well as defensive and you can deal with them if you make the right decisions. Can't say much for valk although I've always liked the unit and while it's pretty strong in number, the sprite bug ensures that too many of them won't become OP(unintentional bug, glitches so unit doesn't fire lol so limit their #). After reading your improvements, especially #2, I'm almost confident you're trolling now XD
I don't feel like forcefields are a problem for PvP, and having too many sentries will kill you in some situations. They're only a problem in non-mirror M/U because Terran can't use a thor reliably in TvP as an answer to FF and Zerg can't do anything until hive. FF isn't really a big deal for Protoss now, because with MSC, they can get high-ground vision anyway, or simply escape. The forcefield is one of those filthy design decisions that force Blizzard into coming up with a million stupid ideas to counteract. Once they come up empty, because it's still possible to deal with, they say, "ok, let's pretend that you can bait forcefields as an effective countermeasure and let's drag out the game so that the realistic solutions become available". Too much fail going on in the design to actually balance some of the shit.
On February 07 2014 09:27 [PkF] Wire wrote: I'm pleasantly surprised to find myself quite happy with what David Kim said. Of course he's a man who knows how to talk and he can say what he wants about the oracle buff, I'm still convinced it was dumb shit, but overall I can see where he's heading and that doesn't seem too bad to me. Let's see what future holds in store but I feel more and more confident we'll reach again a rather satisfying state of the game.
I don't know how this is a pleasant surprise. It's more of the same question-dodging and "we don't know" answers that we've become accustomed to.
Zerg can get burrow and burrow move, which was buffed. Terran can medivac lift their units, which is why protoss players phase out sentries other than for guardian shield after medivacs hit the battlefield.
On February 07 2014 05:42 Aserrin wrote: I'm pretty sure amateur players, pros and viewers are pretty aligned on what they want from the game. Blizzard wants something completely different and are acting corporatively, dismissing every other opinion and just giving automatic responses (like in this thread) justifying their awful decisions and planning.
Nope. Some people act like it's unanimously agreed that Brood War is a better game than Starcraft II for example, which is not the case. Some people act like everyone agrees that Swarm Hosts are boring, while this is not the case. Some people think everyone agrees when they say that Protoss is overpowered, but this isn't the case either. People really don't agree on much of anything. The people with the loudest voices sometimes make it seem like a lot of people are in agreement, but that's an illusion most of the time.
Not being unanimous =! Not having any kind of agreement
But that isn't want you implied with your post. You implied that everyone pretty much agreed on what should be changed in SC2, which is not true. Some arguments may be sound and have merit. But to imply that the majority of players agree on one of these sound, meritorious arguments is simply incorrect.
Terran can medivac lift their units, which is why protoss players phase out sentries other than for guardian shield after medivacs hit the battlefield.
Every terran unit is ranged. Its hard to hit forcefield to trap em since the terran will keep the distance all the time. So i dont think its true what u say.
Terran can medivac lift their units, which is why protoss players phase out sentries other than for guardian shield after medivacs hit the battlefield.
Every terran unit is ranged. Its hard to hit forcefield to trap em since the terran will keep the distance all the time. So i dont think its true what u say.
Oh it absolutely is: I use forcefields all the time to trap terran units so that they cannot kite my zealots. Once medivacs are out though, they just lift and fly away, so I have to switch to charge zealots to close the gap.
As much as I detest Protoss and any PvX mu, I am filled with a sense of sweet justice seeing only 3 Terrans in this season's GSL Code S. Terrans completely stomped all over Zerg pre-WM nerf and Zergs were chastised for so much as alluding to the possibility of imbalance. We were suppressed for such a long time, it took so painfully long for that much-needed WM nerf to be implemented. We had 2 Zergs in the '13 WCS Global Finals and we had like 1/∞th the amount of whine then, as we do now from T-players.
just like Blizzard put in some bad unit choices when Broodwar came out (Corsair, Valk, Medic - healing rate, Lurker) as well. I think overall the game is better unlike Broodwar and the design team has done a great job.
You are funny. How in the world are medics bad when they allow stim and bio play- the most mobile of all Terran's strategies. And your other examples are equally bad. In addition to intimating that Protoss was not mobile? Arbiters? Recalls? Shuttles? That's what Protoss does is be mobile.
On February 07 2014 05:42 Aserrin wrote: I'm pretty sure amateur players, pros and viewers are pretty aligned on what they want from the game. Blizzard wants something completely different and are acting corporatively, dismissing every other opinion and just giving automatic responses (like in this thread) justifying their awful decisions and planning.
Nope. Some people act like it's unanimously agreed that Brood War is a better game than Starcraft II for example, which is not the case. Some people act like everyone agrees that Swarm Hosts are boring, while this is not the case. Some people think everyone agrees when they say that Protoss is overpowered, but this isn't the case either. People really don't agree on much of anything. The people with the loudest voices sometimes make it seem like a lot of people are in agreement, but that's an illusion most of the time.
Not being unanimous =! Not having any kind of agreement
But that isn't want you implied with your post. You implied that everyone pretty much agreed on what should be changed in SC2, which is not true. Some arguments may be sound and have merit. But to imply that the majority of players agree on one of these sound, meritorious arguments is simply incorrect.
Not really. Maybe that's because english isn't my native language, what I tried to say is that what players and viewers want from the game is closer between them, than comparing it to the developers' mindset: WCS format, Bnet 2.0, balance issues and procedures about them, even this Q&A. Did I explain myself now?
On February 07 2014 05:42 Aserrin wrote: I'm pretty sure amateur players, pros and viewers are pretty aligned on what they want from the game. Blizzard wants something completely different and are acting corporatively, dismissing every other opinion and just giving automatic responses (like in this thread) justifying their awful decisions and planning.
Nope. Some people act like it's unanimously agreed that Brood War is a better game than Starcraft II for example, which is not the case. Some people act like everyone agrees that Swarm Hosts are boring, while this is not the case. Some people think everyone agrees when they say that Protoss is overpowered, but this isn't the case either. People really don't agree on much of anything. The people with the loudest voices sometimes make it seem like a lot of people are in agreement, but that's an illusion most of the time.
Not being unanimous =! Not having any kind of agreement
But that isn't want you implied with your post. You implied that everyone pretty much agreed on what should be changed in SC2, which is not true. Some arguments may be sound and have merit. But to imply that the majority of players agree on one of these sound, meritorious arguments is simply incorrect.
Not really. Maybe that's because english isn't my native language, what I tried to say is that what players and viewers want from the game is closer between them, than comparing it to the developers' mindset. Did I explain myself now?
EPT
