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David Kim answers Balance Questions on Battle.net forums -…

Forum Index > SC2 General
759 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 17 18 19 20 21 38 Next All
ssxsilver
Profile Joined June 2007
United States4409 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-06 19:53:11
February 06 2014 19:52 GMT
#361
TBH forcefields are really only silly once Protoss has 10+ sentries and are spamming them haphazardly. Watching hot pickup/ roach burrow play is pretty cool, but it'd be nice if that wasn't used as an excuse to prevent any possible improvements/changes.
Esoterikk
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada1256 Posts
February 06 2014 19:54 GMT
#362
I'm not even sure why they do these, they never say anything of note and are never really transparent.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
February 06 2014 20:01 GMT
#363
On February 07 2014 04:50 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2014 04:37 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 07 2014 04:31 Zealously wrote:
On February 07 2014 04:29 Whitewing wrote:
On February 07 2014 04:27 Zealously wrote:
On February 07 2014 04:26 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 07 2014 03:19 Araneae wrote:
On February 07 2014 02:30 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 07 2014 01:19 Roswell wrote:
On February 07 2014 01:13 Loccstana wrote:
I think the biggest problem here is Blizzard's inability to admit mistakes they made and correct them. Take the hellbat for example: It received 3 back to back nerfs, with the cargo size nerf being rather arbitary and hurting late game harassment. Now that the hellbat's damage been nerfed, the hellbat's cargo size should be reverted back to 2. Also whats with the widow mine being at 2 supply? That unit should be 1/2 supply, 1 supply most.

Give the most cost efficent unit in the game a zerglings supply? I think its fair to complain about overpatching things, but so far we havent met a dead end, the games gotten better over time.

Most efficient unit in the game? The mine? Are you serious?

I agree to the Hellbat comment BTW. Hellbats have been nerfed to shreds and are used only as a mineral dump for mech, but nobody seems to care.

Hellbat is on the return in TvZ now, with terrans going marine, thor, hellbat and medivacs. Of course, they do get the bf upgrade, so they do 18+12 to lings/blings

In TvZ it is really starting to feel like you have to pick out of 3 bad options because you NEED AOE vs MLB.
Tanks > Nerfed, Hellbats > Nerfed, Mines > Nerfed. I'm sad David doesn't even consider reverting the Helbat and Siege Tank nerfs, we're in an entirely new metagame.


Tanks were nerfed? I thought the last tank change was a buff?


Tanks have not been nerfed since WoL, but mutas were buffed, so they are worse in comparison.


That's very true. Claiming that tanks were nerfed any time recently (the last time was in 2010 when Terrans were in a pretty good spot) is a blatant lie though.

I agree, I wasn't clear enough. Tanks haven't been nerfed recently, but because of the larger and more open maps and the buffs to mutalisk they perform worse than ever.
EDIT - not to forget the current Metagame that demands fast play as well as fast upgrades, which both dislike the Siege Tank.


Based upon which data? They perform pretty amazing in 2/3 matchups. In TvT probably better than ever.

Fairly sure he refers to the weakness of Marines/Tanks against muta play.
JIJI_
Profile Joined October 2010
United States123 Posts
February 06 2014 20:01 GMT
#364
some ppl might hate me but i still think hellbat nerf was the thing that broke tvp

msc was added with the pretense that t could compete fairly in lategame now with toss but hellbats now are too risky and take too long to tech up to

teching into hellbats now you are taking a massive risk to dying (hellbats are basically paper weights against zealots with no blue flame) not to mention making yourself weak in the midgame when you should be the strongest

they should have tried removing the bio tag (like many ppl wanted) because medivacs increased their lifespan by an insane amount b4 stim was done in tvt

also hellbat drops in tvt was just harass into macro games - tvt on ladder from my experience right now is mostly banshee or 1/1/1 pushes instead of hellbat drops so it just replaced 1 thing with another

hopefully this is ok to post here.

thx.

Either way its pointless to talk about it once blizz makes a change I doubt they will ever revert it no matter what.
All hail King IdrA!
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
February 06 2014 20:07 GMT
#365
On February 07 2014 05:01 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2014 04:50 Big J wrote:
On February 07 2014 04:37 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 07 2014 04:31 Zealously wrote:
On February 07 2014 04:29 Whitewing wrote:
On February 07 2014 04:27 Zealously wrote:
On February 07 2014 04:26 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 07 2014 03:19 Araneae wrote:
On February 07 2014 02:30 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 07 2014 01:19 Roswell wrote:
[quote]
Give the most cost efficent unit in the game a zerglings supply? I think its fair to complain about overpatching things, but so far we havent met a dead end, the games gotten better over time.

Most efficient unit in the game? The mine? Are you serious?

I agree to the Hellbat comment BTW. Hellbats have been nerfed to shreds and are used only as a mineral dump for mech, but nobody seems to care.

Hellbat is on the return in TvZ now, with terrans going marine, thor, hellbat and medivacs. Of course, they do get the bf upgrade, so they do 18+12 to lings/blings

In TvZ it is really starting to feel like you have to pick out of 3 bad options because you NEED AOE vs MLB.
Tanks > Nerfed, Hellbats > Nerfed, Mines > Nerfed. I'm sad David doesn't even consider reverting the Helbat and Siege Tank nerfs, we're in an entirely new metagame.


Tanks were nerfed? I thought the last tank change was a buff?


Tanks have not been nerfed since WoL, but mutas were buffed, so they are worse in comparison.


That's very true. Claiming that tanks were nerfed any time recently (the last time was in 2010 when Terrans were in a pretty good spot) is a blatant lie though.

I agree, I wasn't clear enough. Tanks haven't been nerfed recently, but because of the larger and more open maps and the buffs to mutalisk they perform worse than ever.
EDIT - not to forget the current Metagame that demands fast play as well as fast upgrades, which both dislike the Siege Tank.


Based upon which data? They perform pretty amazing in 2/3 matchups. In TvT probably better than ever.

Fairly sure he refers to the weakness of Marines/Tanks against muta play.


yeah but it has a very solid place in the matchup currently. Not every unit has to be amazing with every composition to be considered good.
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
February 06 2014 20:09 GMT
#366
On February 07 2014 04:50 Talack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2014 04:17 Zealously wrote:
On February 07 2014 04:10 nojem wrote:
Being constructive is fine when you know the other party is competent and receptive to suggestions. But what other recourse is there when after years and years of constructive input from every branch of the community has fallen on deaf ears and incompetance displayed at every opportunity?

At this point, what SC2 really needs is a good lynching -- of the Jay Wilson type. The D3 debacle was bad but at least it looks salvageable with the expansion. Is SC2 salvageable after all this time or has the point passed? IMO it's a pity things weren't corrected before when the community was more positive but the lesson learned is that trying to be all constructive and nice is detrimental in some circumstances.


I think what SC2 "really needs" is less people telling everyone else what the game "really needs", but that might just be me.


The problem with SC2 is that the developers and the players have completely different ideas of what they want when they play. And talking with the developers just doesn't have much effect on the game. Or what the players request is being done 1-2 years later.

The problem is that the players have completely different ideas of what they want when they play.

Get a solid consensus from everyone and then send that to Blizzard. Good luck and God speed.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Aserrin
Profile Joined October 2011
Uruguay231 Posts
February 06 2014 20:42 GMT
#367
I'm pretty sure amateur players, pros and viewers are pretty aligned on what they want from the game. Blizzard wants something completely different and are acting corporatively, dismissing every other opinion and just giving automatic responses (like in this thread) justifying their awful decisions and planning.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 06 2014 20:57 GMT
#368
I hate to break it to you, but most people do not agree on much at all. Anyone who has tried to order pizza for more tha ln 5 people has seen that even simple thing cannot be agreed on
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
February 06 2014 21:00 GMT
#369
On February 07 2014 05:42 Aserrin wrote:
I'm pretty sure amateur players, pros and viewers are pretty aligned on what they want from the game. Blizzard wants something completely different and are acting corporatively, dismissing every other opinion and just giving automatic responses (like in this thread) justifying their awful decisions and planning.


Nope. Some people act like it's unanimously agreed that Brood War is a better game than Starcraft II for example, which is not the case. Some people act like everyone agrees that Swarm Hosts are boring, while this is not the case. Some people think everyone agrees when they say that Protoss is overpowered, but this isn't the case either. People really don't agree on much of anything. The people with the loudest voices sometimes make it seem like a lot of people are in agreement, but that's an illusion most of the time.
AdministratorBreak the chains
w3c.TruE
Profile Joined November 2013
Czech Republic1055 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-06 21:11:30
February 06 2014 21:10 GMT
#370
On February 07 2014 06:00 Zealously wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2014 05:42 Aserrin wrote:
I'm pretty sure amateur players, pros and viewers are pretty aligned on what they want from the game. Blizzard wants something completely different and are acting corporatively, dismissing every other opinion and just giving automatic responses (like in this thread) justifying their awful decisions and planning.


Nope. Some people act like it's unanimously agreed that Brood War is a better game than Starcraft II for example, which is not the case. Some people act like everyone agrees that Swarm Hosts are boring, while this is not the case. Some people think everyone agrees when they say that Protoss is overpowered, but this isn't the case either. People really don't agree on much of anything. The people with the loudest voices sometimes make it seem like a lot of people are in agreement, but that's an illusion most of the time.

Exactly, it goes like this even for PvT complaints. Some people say, that problem is super strong Toss early game (can throw powerfull all-ins, or can be greedy), other people say, that problem is that Protoss lategame "deathball" is OP. Some people claim, that Protoss is OP both early game and late game. And some guys just say, that Protoss is soooo riduculously OP, that it's wonder, that they don't have 99% winrate everywhere, everytime...
Dream, Dark, herO, PartinG, RorO, Bbyong, Rain, soO, PtitDrogo <3. Goodbye RorO, MC you were awesome! You will be remembered!
dargul
Profile Joined May 2010
Russian Federation125 Posts
February 06 2014 21:35 GMT
#371
On February 06 2014 19:51 dargul wrote:
Lets poll and see if common players still trust Kim, or may be he is incompetent and must leave this game for god sake.
Poll: You opinion about David Kim as balance designer

Yeh he is awsome. (29)
 
15%

He is slowpoke but ok. (23)
 
12%

He is killing sc2 with his incompetence. (131)
 
66%

I don't care i play moba already. (17)
 
9%

200 total votes

Your vote: You opinion about David Kim as balance designer

(Vote): Yeh he is awsome.
(Vote): He is slowpoke but ok.
(Vote): He is killing sc2 with his incompetence.
(Vote): I don't care i play moba already.




I think result is pretty obvious. I hope that kim will notice this and change something in his behaviour...
In Stim We Trust
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-06 21:42:46
February 06 2014 21:41 GMT
#372
On February 07 2014 06:35 dargul wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2014 19:51 dargul wrote:
Lets poll and see if common players still trust Kim, or may be he is incompetent and must leave this game for god sake.
Poll: You opinion about David Kim as balance designer

Yeh he is awsome. (29)
 
15%

He is slowpoke but ok. (23)
 
12%

He is killing sc2 with his incompetence. (131)
 
66%

I don't care i play moba already. (17)
 
9%

200 total votes

Your vote: You opinion about David Kim as balance designer

(Vote): Yeh he is awsome.
(Vote): He is slowpoke but ok.
(Vote): He is killing sc2 with his incompetence.
(Vote): I don't care i play moba already.




I think result is pretty obvious. I hope that kim will notice this and change something in his behaviour...

I think they call that a "push poll" in the industry. Doesn't really prove much at all.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
February 06 2014 21:45 GMT
#373
On February 07 2014 06:35 dargul wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2014 19:51 dargul wrote:
Lets poll and see if common players still trust Kim, or may be he is incompetent and must leave this game for god sake.
Poll: You opinion about David Kim as balance designer

Yeh he is awsome. (29)
 
15%

He is slowpoke but ok. (23)
 
12%

He is killing sc2 with his incompetence. (131)
 
66%

I don't care i play moba already. (17)
 
9%

200 total votes

Your vote: You opinion about David Kim as balance designer

(Vote): Yeh he is awsome.
(Vote): He is slowpoke but ok.
(Vote): He is killing sc2 with his incompetence.
(Vote): I don't care i play moba already.




I think result is pretty obvious. I hope that kim will notice this and change something in his behaviour...


So shall we assume that the tens of thousands of people that didn't vote are happy with David Kim? Or that they hate him? I don't know man, less than 200 people voting altogether isn't a very convincing result.
AdministratorBreak the chains
Valikyr
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden2653 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-06 21:47:47
February 06 2014 21:46 GMT
#374
Even Protoss players don't like warp gates and forcefields (I am one of them). I just don't get why Blizzard is so proud about the design of that and won't ever think of changing something about them. The Starbow solution where not all units can be warped in is a great change that means warp gates has a drawback and you need to have both gateways and warp gates.

What if only zealots and DT's could be warped in to keep the unique harassment options with pylons and warp prisms but stalkers/sentries/HT's needs to be produced normally? Certainly makes macro a lot harder and doesn't take away any unique feel of the race.
aZealot
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
New Zealand5447 Posts
February 06 2014 22:01 GMT
#375
I'm a Protoss player and I like WG and Forcefield. As to Starbow, the restriction on Dragoon (and Dragoon only) warp-in is one of the more sillier features found in a Starcraft game. I think it a crude change to a cool mechanic.
KT best KT ~ 2014
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25070 Posts
February 06 2014 22:08 GMT
#376
On February 07 2014 04:24 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2014 04:17 Zealously wrote:
On February 07 2014 04:10 nojem wrote:
Being constructive is fine when you know the other party is competent and receptive to suggestions. But what other recourse is there when after years and years of constructive input from every branch of the community has fallen on deaf ears and incompetance displayed at every opportunity?

At this point, what SC2 really needs is a good lynching -- of the Jay Wilson type. The D3 debacle was bad but at least it looks salvageable with the expansion. Is SC2 salvageable after all this time or has the point passed? IMO it's a pity things weren't corrected before when the community was more positive but the lesson learned is that trying to be all constructive and nice is detrimental in some circumstances.


I think what SC2 "really needs" is less people telling everyone else what the game "really needs", but that might just be me.

It would go a long way for sure. Really we just need and balance and game design sub form.

Well yeah, which i and many others have requested, so don't moan at us for bringing it into threads where it's at least halfway relevant.

And no, there isn't anything approaching unanimity when it comes to the opinions on aspects of the game, doesn't mean you shouldn't express your opinions. I do agree that people using things like 'objectively bad' to back their points look stupid in doing so, but as long as you don't speak as if you represent everybody, critique as much as you want.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 06 2014 22:08 GMT
#377
I'm with Azealot, I like both warpgate and forcefields. I get why people don't like them, but I don't agree.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Destructicon
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
4713 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-06 22:13:48
February 06 2014 22:09 GMT
#378
Yeah its silly to be so absolute in a statement. I also know a protoss that loves his FF, he thinks its the coolest mechanic in the game and defends it vehemently, despite me and another player pointing out to him repeatedly how the mechanic just breaks and limits protoss design.

I initially did like them from a design standpoint, I thought it was cool to have a different production mechanic like that, as well as a spell that interacted with armies in such a way, but then I observed the game more over the years and I understood exactly how they where impacting the game and came to hate them.

I still think WG can be salvaged as a mechanic if it was T3 and had some restrictions, like regular Gateways being better for standard production and WG better for harass, but FF is just unsolvable, too polarizing a spell, too micro limiting, too restrictive on map design.

Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that, yes people have wildly differing opinions. Some opinions can be changed in time, like I changed mine, and some are nearly set in stone.
WriterNever give up, never surrender! https://www.youtube.com/user/DestructiconSC
dargul
Profile Joined May 2010
Russian Federation125 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-06 22:15:45
February 06 2014 22:11 GMT
#379
On February 07 2014 06:45 Zealously wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2014 06:35 dargul wrote:
On February 06 2014 19:51 dargul wrote:
Lets poll and see if common players still trust Kim, or may be he is incompetent and must leave this game for god sake.
Poll: You opinion about David Kim as balance designer

Yeh he is awsome. (29)
 
15%

He is slowpoke but ok. (23)
 
12%

He is killing sc2 with his incompetence. (131)
 
66%

I don't care i play moba already. (17)
 
9%

200 total votes

Your vote: You opinion about David Kim as balance designer

(Vote): Yeh he is awsome.
(Vote): He is slowpoke but ok.
(Vote): He is killing sc2 with his incompetence.
(Vote): I don't care i play moba already.




I think result is pretty obvious. I hope that kim will notice this and change something in his behaviour...


So shall we assume that the tens of thousands of people that didn't vote are happy with David Kim? Or that they hate him? I don't know man, less than 200 people voting altogether isn't a very convincing result.

You can't ask every1 it's obvious. But lets remember how social polls are working - you take random people from the targeted social group and ask for their opinion. The bigger this group is the better.

In our case we have group of people which discuss kim and his balance desigions. There are about 400posts in this thread and about 200 opinions about kim. Think for yourself if it is big enough.
Ofcourse it doesn't prove anything it is like politics -you can't prove anything. But you can make people to think in right direction.

I would agree that this poll means nothing if it was rather close, but we can see that (111/154 atm) 72%+ hate Kim...
In Stim We Trust
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25070 Posts
February 06 2014 22:15 GMT
#380
Well it's a damn limited poll.

My opinion is that David Kim is a pretty damn good balance guy, considering how many volatile things are in the game and don't appear likely to be removed. Conjecture here obv but I have said numerous times that I doubt there are many guys even working on SC2 atm, so even if the guy wanted to make wholesale changes he lacks the investment from Blizzard to do so.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
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