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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On February 07 2014 07:11 dargul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 06:45 Zealously wrote:On February 07 2014 06:35 dargul wrote:On February 06 2014 19:51 dargul wrote:Lets poll and see if common players still trust Kim, or may be he is incompetent and must leave this game for god sake. Poll: You opinion about David Kim as balance designerYeh he is awsome. (29) 15% He is slowpoke but ok. (23) 12% He is killing sc2 with his incompetence. (131) 66% I don't care i play moba already. (17) 9% 200 total votes Your vote: You opinion about David Kim as balance designer (Vote): Yeh he is awsome.
(Vote): He is slowpoke but ok.
(Vote): He is killing sc2 with his incompetence.
(Vote): I don't care i play moba already.
I think result is pretty obvious. I hope that kim will notice this and change something in his behaviour... So shall we assume that the tens of thousands of people that didn't vote are happy with David Kim? Or that they hate him? I don't know man, less than 200 people voting altogether isn't a very convincing result. You can't ask every1 it's obvious. But lets remember how social polls are working - you take random people from the targeted social group and ask for their opinion. The bigger this group is the better. In our case we have group of people which discuss kim and his balance desigions. There are about 400posts in this thread and about 200 opinions about kim. Think for yourself if it is big enough. Ofcourse it doesn't prove anything it is like politics -you can't prove anything. But you can make people to think in right direction. I would agree that this poll means nothing if it was rather close, but we can see that (111/154 atm) 72%+ hate Kim...
A TeamLiquid thread is not "random people". People on TL are more likely to be critical about balance and design than random players, and a thread about David Kim, furthermore, is more likely to have a higher concentration of people disliking the aforementioned's design and balance decisions. Besides, the way you worded the poll isn't neutral and limits what people can say about the situation.
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The contents of a thread and opinions of people in the threat are never representive of the whole population. There is nothing truely random about the people who click on the thead and post in it. There is a reason polling is a full time profession. Because getting accurate poll numbers of a given population is harder than just throwing one in a thread.
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4713 Posts
Precisely what Zealously said. You could construct a far better picture of how people perceive David Kim and Dustin Browder if you had a poll on TL, B.net and, Reddit, added up the results and if you had a sort of in game poll where every player gets the poll upon logging in.
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On February 07 2014 07:08 Plansix wrote:
I'm with Azealot, I like both warpgate and forcefields. I get why people don't like them, but I don't agree.
I'm with both of you. I like it too. And I like PvP too...
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4713 Posts
This must be the first time I agree with Plansix on something.
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On February 07 2014 07:09 Destructicon wrote:
Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that, yes people have wildly differing opinions. Some opinions can be changed in time, like I changed mine, and some are nearly set in stone.
You know soon after I started playing this game I did not like WG or FF? I thought them bad features. Haha. Things change. 
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On February 07 2014 07:01 aZealot wrote:
I'm a Protoss player and I like WG and Forcefield. As to Starbow, the restriction on Dragoon (and Dragoon only) warp-in is one of the more sillier features found in a Starcraft game. I think it a crude change to a cool mechanic.
What about fungals?
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Vatican City State733 Posts
On February 07 2014 01:18 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 01:11 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On February 07 2014 00:47 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:On February 06 2014 23:43 b0rt_ wrote:On February 06 2014 21:52 MysticaL wrote:
so the tl;dr is: David Kim dodging real questions with typical politically correct answers I don't get the point of this. Has Blizzard become a company of red tape rather than a developer at the forefront? SC2 is a shadow of a game compared to BW and everyone including Blizzard know that so............. I don't see what the point is of pretending otherwise. It seems that it has...now instead of taking two extra years to make a game to "get it right", they take three extra and hand us the likes of D3 @ release and SC2. Blizzard must own up to what a colossal screw-up SC2 is and start the overhaul process. Of course, that won't happen, but a man can dream It's funny that a developer with practically infinite money could be so incompetent... That would indeed be funny. I'm not sure which developer you're talking about though?
I agree, I don't think the core of the issue is incompetence w/ SC2. It's esports. Now it's all about making a balanced game that is viable for competitive play. When you start out designing a game for balance instead of "coolness," you're going to struggle making in making a great product. Good maybe, like SC2, but not great like BW.
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Area controlling spells like storm/time warp/forcefield/fungal etc are really fun to use for yourself, but really annoying for everybody else.
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On February 07 2014 07:30 ssxsilver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 07:01 aZealot wrote:
I'm a Protoss player and I like WG and Forcefield. As to Starbow, the restriction on Dragoon (and Dragoon only) warp-in is one of the more sillier features found in a Starcraft game. I think it a crude change to a cool mechanic. What about fungals?
I think fungals are fine. (I don't like Time Warp though.)
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Northern Ireland23775 Posts
They are kind of a necessity nowadays against Airtoss, and the HT/Infestor dance can be quite intense.
Back in the day though, holy fuck fungal. I once literally lost a maxed army in a game for a trade of about 10 Zerg supply after I screwed up and got caught in fungals  . Oh the horror
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4713 Posts
On February 07 2014 07:33 SC2Toastie wrote:
Area controlling spells like storm/time warp/forcefield/fungal etc are really fun to use for yourself, but really annoying for everybody else.
I think movement or action restricting spells are bad unless you have a counter too it, so its all about the context.
I was ok with stuns and slows and hexes in WC3, because the game was build around spells and thus, you had appropriate counters in the game as well, like dispel, devour magic etc.
I am completely against those sort of spells in SC2, because SC2 is more about army control, positioning, space control, then about spell casters and their interactions.
Storm is an ok spell, it deals a large amount of damage over time in an area, the fact its damage over time means you can mitigate its effects, split out of its way etc.
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On February 07 2014 07:38 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 07:33 SC2Toastie wrote:
Area controlling spells like storm/time warp/forcefield/fungal etc are really fun to use for yourself, but really annoying for everybody else. I think movement or action restricting spells are bad unless you have a counter too it, so its all about the context. I was ok with stuns and slows and hexes in WC3, because the game was build around spells and thus, you had appropriate counters in the game as well, like dispel, devour magic etc. I am completely against those sort of spells in SC2, because SC2 is more about army control, positioning, space control, then about spell casters and their interactions. Storm is an ok spell, it deals a large amount of damage over time in an area, the fact its damage over time means you can mitigate its effects, split out of its way etc.
I didn't say they were wrong/right, I said they're more fun for the user than for the victim.
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On February 07 2014 07:33 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 07:30 ssxsilver wrote:On February 07 2014 07:01 aZealot wrote:
I'm a Protoss player and I like WG and Forcefield. As to Starbow, the restriction on Dragoon (and Dragoon only) warp-in is one of the more sillier features found in a Starcraft game. I think it a crude change to a cool mechanic. What about fungals? I think fungals are fine.
Welp I suppose we are of different viewpoints then.
Mind you it's not so much I absolutely hate movement restricting spells, it's just that SC2 has no counter checks in place to stop any snowballing. What's wrong with exploring ways to make spells more dynamic? Phoenixes have absolute immobilization, but with their own restrictions. HotS made fungal a projectile (could be different, but an obvious improvement over WOL). Pipe dream but would it really be that bad if (#s rebalanced) sentries had say channeling forcefields?
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Its funny to see so many positive comments about War3 here. When War3 was out the general Broodwar response to it was how it was so inferior to Broodwar. You even heard a ton of that from Artosis and Tasteless in the first 4-5 GSL seasons always talking about how the former Broodwar players were just better than the War3 players and insulting the game.
Now you have the same thing. Sorry to say but StarCraft 2 is so much better than Broodwar it isn't funny. Although I think we took two steps in the wrong direction in HotS (Swarmhost and widowmines - oh my when they also detected...) just like Blizzard put in some bad unit choices when Broodwar came out (Corsair, Valk, Medic - healing rate, Lurker) as well. I think overall the game is better unlike Broodwar and the design team has done a great job.
Some things that StarCraft 2 really improved on Broodwar on:
1) Mobility of Terran and Protoss (this was very limited in Broodwar, game plays more fluidly and quicker).
2) Reducing Terran macro to LOL easy, Protoss to easy, and zerg to moderate. They also added in a skill element to each class to reward multitasking in the Mule, Chronoboost, and Larvae Inject, but the Larvae inject is more difficult than the other two.
The strange thing in this thread is people saying removing warp gate would make protoss macro harder. No it would be insanely easier. Pressing '3' and 'z' while watching your army and letting troops rally to you (the terran model) is easier and safer while pressing '1' '1' to get to your pylon and then wargate and spam mouse click while holding down 'z' is quite more demanding and requires your screen to be off.
This thread makes me wonder how people can have such strong balance demands from David Kim and yet not even understand the most basic fundamentals of how the game works.
Terran is tougher micro, easier macro than Toss. Toss is easier micro, tougher macro than Terran. Simplistically as an overarching theme. There are obviously ways to play each that change that (the weird Thor attack move rush with scvs on autorepair is obviously less micro intensive --- and yes Artosis streamed himself losing to that in a GSL qualifier)
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Honestly, this all comes down to how design directly affects balance. David Kim comes out to answer balance questions and ends up talking at length about how the design of units and race-defining attributes like FF and WG are things they don't want to look at. It's pretty obvious that they're stuck in what they've made the game into. They can't simply undo warp-gate, forcefield, ravens, fungal, swarm-hosts and widow-mines; all of these things that they consider essential parts of the game's design that directly affect the balance are moot points to them in many regards. What suggestions can the community possibly make to Blizzard about design that won't insult the people who designed these units, abilities and race-specific mechanics?
When people complain that phoenixes are too strong, isn't it more a problem of queens being too important to the production capabilities of Zerg? Or, is it that they suck at scouting and need to practice?
When people complain that you can't kill a Protoss in the early game, is it because of a single thing (Nexus Cannon) or a collection of bullshit abilities and little advantages?
When ghosts got horribly nerfed in every matchup is it because they were too strong, or was Blizzard's design team incompetent when they never gave zerg a hard-counter to the ghost? Why is snipe suddenly only useful against psionic-biological? Why was EMP's radius reduced when the problem may have been the "better" unit pathing stacking the Protoss army too hard?
SC2's problems are more deep-seeded than simply tweaking numbers and costs of units. The balance of the game depends too heavily on abilities and compositions. The design of SC2 is so fundamentally different from that of Broodwar that the two games are almost incomparable. We see that in how matchups are so different now. What I'm saying, is we can't look to Broodwar for "advice" on fixing this game, because its problems are ones which never existed in Broodwar. This, I feel, is unfortunate because it means that Blizzard are as clueless or conflicted when making balance changes due to the constraints of their own design that the opinions of the community are a kind of background noise.
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if ur not gonna change SHs, at least make locusts and their attack animation look cooler...
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Northern Ireland23775 Posts
On February 07 2014 08:08 Eliezar wrote:
Its funny to see so many positive comments about War3 here. When War3 was out the general Broodwar response to it was how it was so inferior to Broodwar. You even heard a ton of that from Artosis and Tasteless in the first 4-5 GSL seasons always talking about how the former Broodwar players were just better than the War3 players and insulting the game.
Now you have the same thing. Sorry to say but StarCraft 2 is so much better than Broodwar it isn't funny. Although I think we took two steps in the wrong direction in HotS (Swarmhost and widowmines - oh my when they also detected...) just like Blizzard put in some bad unit choices when Broodwar came out (Corsair, Valk, Medic - healing rate, Lurker) as well. I think overall the game is better unlike Broodwar and the design team has done a great job.
Some things that StarCraft 2 really improved on Broodwar on:
1) Mobility of Terran and Protoss (this was very limited in Broodwar, game plays more fluidly and quicker).
2) Reducing Terran macro to LOL easy, Protoss to easy, and zerg to moderate. They also added in a skill element to each class to reward multitasking in the Mule, Chronoboost, and Larvae Inject, but the Larvae inject is more difficult than the other two.
The strange thing in this thread is people saying removing warp gate would make protoss macro harder. No it would be insanely easier. Pressing '3' and 'z' while watching your army and letting troops rally to you (the terran model) is easier and safer while pressing '1' '1' to get to your pylon and then wargate and spam mouse click while holding down 'z' is quite more demanding and requires your screen to be off.
This thread makes me wonder how people can have such strong balance demands from David Kim and yet not even understand the most basic fundamentals of how the game works.
Terran is tougher micro, easier macro than Toss. Toss is easier micro, tougher macro than Terran. Simplistically as an overarching theme. There are obviously ways to play each that change that (the weird Thor attack move rush with scvs on autorepair is obviously less micro intensive --- and yes Artosis streamed himself losing to that in a GSL qualifier)
:S
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4713 Posts
On February 07 2014 08:08 Eliezar wrote:
Its funny to see so many positive comments about War3 here. When War3 was out the general Broodwar response to it was how it was so inferior to Broodwar. You even heard a ton of that from Artosis and Tasteless in the first 4-5 GSL seasons always talking about how the former Broodwar players were just better than the War3 players and insulting the game.
Now you have the same thing. Sorry to say but StarCraft 2 is so much better than Broodwar it isn't funny. Although I think we took two steps in the wrong direction in HotS (Swarmhost and widowmines - oh my when they also detected...) just like Blizzard put in some bad unit choices when Broodwar came out (Corsair, Valk, Medic - healing rate, Lurker) as well. I think overall the game is better unlike Broodwar and the design team has done a great job.
Some things that StarCraft 2 really improved on Broodwar on:
1) Mobility of Terran and Protoss (this was very limited in Broodwar, game plays more fluidly and quicker).
2) Reducing Terran macro to LOL easy, Protoss to easy, and zerg to moderate. They also added in a skill element to each class to reward multitasking in the Mule, Chronoboost, and Larvae Inject, but the Larvae inject is more difficult than the other two.
The strange thing in this thread is people saying removing warp gate would make protoss macro harder. No it would be insanely easier. Pressing '3' and 'z' while watching your army and letting troops rally to you (the terran model) is easier and safer while pressing '1' '1' to get to your pylon and then wargate and spam mouse click while holding down 'z' is quite more demanding and requires your screen to be off.
This thread makes me wonder how people can have such strong balance demands from David Kim and yet not even understand the most basic fundamentals of how the game works.
Terran is tougher micro, easier macro than Toss. Toss is easier micro, tougher macro than Terran. Simplistically as an overarching theme. There are obviously ways to play each that change that (the weird Thor attack move rush with scvs on autorepair is obviously less micro intensive --- and yes Artosis streamed himself losing to that in a GSL qualifier)
This post makes me lose my faith in humanity.
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On February 07 2014 08:08 Eliezar wrote:
1) Mobility of Terran and Protoss (this was very limited in Broodwar, game plays more fluidly and quicker).
2) Reducing Terran macro to LOL easy, Protoss to easy, and zerg to moderate. They also added in a skill element to each class to reward multitasking in the Mule, Chronoboost, and Larvae Inject, but the Larvae inject is more difficult than the other two.
The strange thing in this thread is people saying removing warp gate would make protoss macro harder. No it would be insanely easier. Pressing '3' and 'z' while watching your army and letting troops rally to you (the terran model) is easier and safer while pressing '1' '1' to get to your pylon and then wargate and spam mouse click while holding down 'z' is quite more demanding and requires your screen to be off.
What? The "normal" Terran-like production is way more demanding because even if you can queue (which can lead to "overqueue" or "underqueue" mistakes, something people never mention when they comment on the supposed comfort of that model of production), you have to produce constantly, ideally with the regularity of a clock, even when there are a lot of other tasks you need to perform (e. g. microing a drop; compare with the Protoss side in which defending a drop and producing are partially the same action: warping stuff). On the other hand, Warpgate often allows you to skip rounds of production and "catch up" later since the unit is instantly produced—not to mention how Warpgate allows you to dispose of banks much easier; and let us not talk about the complete lack of reinforcement management (how many times you see Terran or Zerg reinforcements get picked off on the way) for units since you can literally produce them near your army. Besides, moving your screen to your Pylon is hardly a problem when 90% of your units in battle are purely a-click (Zealots, Archons, Colossi, Immortals, Voids) and thus operate fine in autopilot while you're watching elsewhere; alas an unintentional synergy of those two awful models. Warpgate is definitely on the podium of things that make Protoss' skill floor so low.
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EPT
