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On February 07 2014 10:44 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 10:37 Foxxan wrote:Terran can medivac lift their units, which is why protoss players phase out sentries other than for guardian shield after medivacs hit the battlefield. Every terran unit is ranged. Its hard to hit forcefield to trap em since the terran will keep the distance all the time. So i dont think its true what u say. Oh it absolutely is: I use forcefields all the time to trap terran units so that they cannot kite my zealots. Once medivacs are out though, they just lift and fly away, so I have to switch to charge zealots to close the gap.
Hmm.
In general, terran bio kill toss without aoe
Forcefield+zealot die to bio. Even with perfect surround.
Now to put a better perspective. If its equal upgrades, equal cost, and supply lets say 45 vs 45. Maybe less to.
Later stages when toss have aoe, the colossous in particular. Forcefield is very good.
But you sure forcefield can actually trap the bio here? Arent they to fast for the sentries?
And deathball vs deathball, when terran have ghost doesnt this also neglect sentries?
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United States7483 Posts
On February 07 2014 10:56 Aserrin wrote:
Thanks for proving me wrong. I guess SC2's quality and popularity decay is just a coincidence then.
With that kind of answer I understand why you feel aligned to Kim and Blizzard.
SC2's quality is not in decline. SC2's popularity is, but that's completely normal and was expected. If you'll recall a few years ago, a number of people were stating that the explosion in events and popularity was unsustainable and was a bubble that was going to contract, and they were completely correct. When a game comes out, eventually some of the fans get bored and move on. HOTS drew in renewed interest, but that crashes too. When LOTV comes out, there will be more renewed interest.
SC2 is still absolutely the largest RTS in the world. RTS was always going to be a smaller ESPORT then MOBA, it just was.
So, no, it's not just a coincidence that the popularity is in decline, but it is not at all the fault of the blizzard developers at all. It was completely expected and normal for it to.
And you are still wrong about people agreeing. Everyone has their own opinions: it just so happens that some people are louder than others and like to talk as if everyone agrees with them. They don't.
On February 07 2014 11:03 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 10:44 Whitewing wrote:On February 07 2014 10:37 Foxxan wrote:Terran can medivac lift their units, which is why protoss players phase out sentries other than for guardian shield after medivacs hit the battlefield. Every terran unit is ranged. Its hard to hit forcefield to trap em since the terran will keep the distance all the time. So i dont think its true what u say. Oh it absolutely is: I use forcefields all the time to trap terran units so that they cannot kite my zealots. Once medivacs are out though, they just lift and fly away, so I have to switch to charge zealots to close the gap. Hmm. In general, terran bio kill toss without aoe Forcefield+zealot die to bio. Even with perfect surround. Now to put a better perspective. If its equal upgrades, equal cost, and supply lets say 45 vs 45. Maybe less to. Later stages when toss have aoe, the colossous in particular. Forcefield is very good. But you sure forcefield can actually trap the bio here? Arent they to fast for the sentries? And deathball vs deathball, when terran have ghost doesnt this also neglect sentries?
Actually, gateway units without AoE do great until medivacs are out. It's medivacs that make AoE required, because they basically make terran units unkillable until you have a huge amount of DPS, and gateway units do not have high DPS, they have high HP (Consider: the stalker is the army unit with the lowest DPS in the game for cost). I trap bio units with forcefields all the time, and you see it in pro games too, if they attack before medivacs are out. It's become rarer in pro games because now terrans don't attack until medivacs, so there is no reason to attempt forcefield traps.
And yes, sentries are phased out once medivacs are out, you only use them for guardian shield, so ghosts negating them becomes irrelevant. Protoss doesn't usually make more than 2 sentries in the matchup because forcefield isn't very important anymore in PvT.
And Terran bio, if it's just running from you, will outrun forcefields. If it is trying to kite and protoss is micro'ing correctly (not letting zealots get ahead of the rest of the army), then either they have to back off entirely or get trapped. Range on forcefield is 9, range of a marauder is 6, if the bio unit is in range to hit the sentry, you can be more than easily trapped.
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Northern Ireland27266 Posts
Why is RTS necessarily doomed to be smaller than MOBA games, especially given that SC2 is pretty much the only big RTS atm, whereas there are a couple of MOBA titles?
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On February 07 2014 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:
Why is RTS necessarily doomed to be smaller than MOBA games, especially given that SC2 is pretty much the only big RTS atm, whereas there are a couple of MOBA titles?
The market for MOBA is big enough to get split between League and Dota and still have a huge community each.
RTS on the other hand, just lacks the market size, there is just no other company willing to invest in RTS market anymore because of this reason.
the sequel of the popular RTS titles, like red alert and age of empire all have pretty much failed horribly
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On February 07 2014 07:54 ssxsilver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 07:33 aZealot wrote:On February 07 2014 07:30 ssxsilver wrote:On February 07 2014 07:01 aZealot wrote:
I'm a Protoss player and I like WG and Forcefield. As to Starbow, the restriction on Dragoon (and Dragoon only) warp-in is one of the more sillier features found in a Starcraft game. I think it a crude change to a cool mechanic. What about fungals? I think fungals are fine. Welp I suppose we are of different viewpoints then. Mind you it's not so much I absolutely hate movement restricting spells, it's just that SC2 has no counter checks in place to stop any snowballing. What's wrong with exploring ways to make spells more dynamic? Phoenixes have absolute immobilization, but with their own restrictions. HotS made fungal a projectile (could be different, but an obvious improvement over WOL). Pipe dream but would it really be that bad if (#s rebalanced) sentries had say channeling forcefields?
I don't see anything wrong at all in looking at ways to make spells more interesting. The HOTS fungal is so much better than the WOL fungal. If looking at a tweaked FF is on Blizzard's agenda, I'd have no problem with it. (Personally, I don't think FF as a channeling ability is a sound idea but having it HP based or lowering the duration are interesting suggestions I have read elsewhere.) That said, I do think it is rather low on Blizzard's list at the moment, if it figures there at all. FF is one of those abilities that players generally appear to have gotten used to. But, I'd have no problem with tweaking FF (and Sentries).
If you really want to rework FF fundamentally, or remove it completely, you'd have to look at a lot of other inter-related things. For example, the Zerg economy (which necessitates FF from Sentries) or Protoss reliance on a melee unit for early/midgame interactions with Terran ranged units (which means GS and FF from Sentries). So, a fundamental change to the unit or the ability will not happen (as with WG). Nor do I think it necessary for gameplay (or map-making reasons) either.
I do dislike Time Warp though. Maybe, it's the consistency aspect of it which makes me uncomfortable that it does not affect friendly units. Increasing the energy cost is the right move. I also hope Blizzard consider making it an upgrade at Core.
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"For example, why do Zerglings or roaches try to bait out Force Fields if micro against them is not possible?"
They try to bait them out because if they land you can't micro against them. I think Blizzard thinks "baiting" falls under the category of micro. That's a mind game, not micro. Am I wrong here?
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United States7483 Posts
On February 07 2014 12:57 Emuking wrote:
"For example, why do Zerglings or roaches try to bait out Force Fields if micro against them is not possible?"
They try to bait them out because if they land you can't micro against them. I think Blizzard thinks "baiting" falls under the category of micro. That's a mind game, not micro. Am I wrong here?
Does it involve micro to move the lings? If yes, then it is micro.
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DK answers as expected...and pretty much tells the truth...
That said...I do want to see Terran buffed...they are having a terrible time these days...But like the panel on Meta all agreed on it is 3 things:
1) Toss players have figured out how to play the race.
2) There are more high end Toss players than high end Terran players these days.
3) Terran has far less options in TvP than Toss.
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Northern Ireland27266 Posts
On February 07 2014 13:17 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 12:57 Emuking wrote:
"For example, why do Zerglings or roaches try to bait out Force Fields if micro against them is not possible?"
They try to bait them out because if they land you can't micro against them. I think Blizzard thinks "baiting" falls under the category of micro. That's a mind game, not micro. Am I wrong here? Does it involve micro to move the lings? If yes, then it is micro.
Not fun micro, but yeah probably
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On February 07 2014 11:03 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 10:44 Whitewing wrote:On February 07 2014 10:37 Foxxan wrote:Terran can medivac lift their units, which is why protoss players phase out sentries other than for guardian shield after medivacs hit the battlefield. Every terran unit is ranged. Its hard to hit forcefield to trap em since the terran will keep the distance all the time. So i dont think its true what u say. Oh it absolutely is: I use forcefields all the time to trap terran units so that they cannot kite my zealots. Once medivacs are out though, they just lift and fly away, so I have to switch to charge zealots to close the gap. Hmm. In general, terran bio kill toss without aoe Forcefield+zealot die to bio. Even with perfect surround. Now to put a better perspective. If its equal upgrades, equal cost, and supply lets say 45 vs 45. Maybe less to. Later stages when toss have aoe, the colossous in particular. Forcefield is very good. But you sure forcefield can actually trap the bio here? Arent they to fast for the sentries? And deathball vs deathball, when terran have ghost doesnt this also neglect sentries?
bio vs FF/zealots depends on the supply. At low supply, FF/zealots is actually pretty good vs bio. It is when the bio ball gets big enough where zealots are killed very quickly where protoss start losing.
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On February 07 2014 13:17 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 12:57 Emuking wrote:
"For example, why do Zerglings or roaches try to bait out Force Fields if micro against them is not possible?"
They try to bait them out because if they land you can't micro against them. I think Blizzard thinks "baiting" falls under the category of micro. That's a mind game, not micro. Am I wrong here? Does it involve micro to move the lings? If yes, then it is micro.
An interesting definition of micro from a protoss player.
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On February 07 2014 13:48 imrusty269 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 13:17 Whitewing wrote:On February 07 2014 12:57 Emuking wrote:
"For example, why do Zerglings or roaches try to bait out Force Fields if micro against them is not possible?"
They try to bait them out because if they land you can't micro against them. I think Blizzard thinks "baiting" falls under the category of micro. That's a mind game, not micro. Am I wrong here? Does it involve micro to move the lings? If yes, then it is micro. An interesting definition of micro from a protoss player.
And your version would have terran as the only race that has to micro? The other two are a-move races.
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Northern Ireland27266 Posts
On February 07 2014 13:46 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 11:03 Foxxan wrote:On February 07 2014 10:44 Whitewing wrote:On February 07 2014 10:37 Foxxan wrote:Terran can medivac lift their units, which is why protoss players phase out sentries other than for guardian shield after medivacs hit the battlefield. Every terran unit is ranged. Its hard to hit forcefield to trap em since the terran will keep the distance all the time. So i dont think its true what u say. Oh it absolutely is: I use forcefields all the time to trap terran units so that they cannot kite my zealots. Once medivacs are out though, they just lift and fly away, so I have to switch to charge zealots to close the gap. Hmm. In general, terran bio kill toss without aoe Forcefield+zealot die to bio. Even with perfect surround. Now to put a better perspective. If its equal upgrades, equal cost, and supply lets say 45 vs 45. Maybe less to. Later stages when toss have aoe, the colossous in particular. Forcefield is very good. But you sure forcefield can actually trap the bio here? Arent they to fast for the sentries? And deathball vs deathball, when terran have ghost doesnt this also neglect sentries? bio vs FF/zealots depends on the supply. At low supply, FF/zealots is actually pretty good vs bio. It is when the bio ball gets big enough where zealots are killed very quickly where protoss start losing.
Not just Zealots, at low supply you have some fun micro battles with stalkers v marines especially. Not really such a thing anymore, but back in WoL with aggressive 2rax builds vs the conservative 3 gate expos, or the aggressive variants of the 3 gate expo those were quite fun.
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On February 07 2014 13:51 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 13:48 imrusty269 wrote:On February 07 2014 13:17 Whitewing wrote:On February 07 2014 12:57 Emuking wrote:
"For example, why do Zerglings or roaches try to bait out Force Fields if micro against them is not possible?"
They try to bait them out because if they land you can't micro against them. I think Blizzard thinks "baiting" falls under the category of micro. That's a mind game, not micro. Am I wrong here? Does it involve micro to move the lings? If yes, then it is micro. An interesting definition of micro from a protoss player. And your version would have terran as the only race that has to micro? The other two are a-move races.
Last time I checked zerg can't a move into a Terran mine field/tank line with bio nor could zerg A move into storm and colossi, don't even know why people bother with whole "a move thing. Protoss can literally a move in some situations lol.
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On February 07 2014 12:57 Emuking wrote:
"For example, why do Zerglings or roaches try to bait out Force Fields if micro against them is not possible?"
They try to bait them out because if they land you can't micro against them. I think Blizzard thinks "baiting" falls under the category of micro. That's a mind game, not micro. Am I wrong here?
I'm not sure it matters. People bait out Stim for similar reasons. The point he was trying to make is that there are strategies to make FF interesting on both sides. As a strategy game, that's what you want. The question in my mind however is if FF's are a fun mechanic or not.
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On February 07 2014 15:27 vesicular wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 12:57 Emuking wrote:
"For example, why do Zerglings or roaches try to bait out Force Fields if micro against them is not possible?"
They try to bait them out because if they land you can't micro against them. I think Blizzard thinks "baiting" falls under the category of micro. That's a mind game, not micro. Am I wrong here? I'm not sure it matters. People bait out Stim for similar reasons. The point he was trying to make is that there are strategies to make FF interesting on both sides. As a strategy game, that's what you want. The question in my mind however is if FF's are a fun mechanic or not.
Anything that kills you is usually not seen as fun for you at the time being. Meanwhile few Protoss will say that they feel bad when they get really good FFs off.
I definitely believe that there could be improvements made to FFs, but it's far from being "more unfun than being kited to death" or the end of the world as some people here put it.
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On February 07 2014 09:58 Darkdwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 06:46 Valikyr wrote:
Even Protoss players don't like warp gates and forcefields (I am one of them). I just don't get why Blizzard is so proud about the design of that and won't ever think of changing something about them. The Starbow solution where not all units can be warped in is a great change that means warp gates has a drawback and you need to have both gateways and warp gates.
What if only zealots and DT's could be warped in to keep the unique harassment options with pylons and warp prisms but stalkers/sentries/HT's needs to be produced normally? Certainly makes macro a lot harder and doesn't take away any unique feel of the race. I am a protoss player and I like force fields. Sorry to destroy your world view. 
Didn't say every protoss player dislikes them.
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On February 07 2014 16:13 Valikyr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 09:58 Darkdwarf wrote:On February 07 2014 06:46 Valikyr wrote:
Even Protoss players don't like warp gates and forcefields (I am one of them). I just don't get why Blizzard is so proud about the design of that and won't ever think of changing something about them. The Starbow solution where not all units can be warped in is a great change that means warp gates has a drawback and you need to have both gateways and warp gates.
What if only zealots and DT's could be warped in to keep the unique harassment options with pylons and warp prisms but stalkers/sentries/HT's needs to be produced normally? Certainly makes macro a lot harder and doesn't take away any unique feel of the race. I am a protoss player and I like force fields. Sorry to destroy your world view. Didn't say every protoss player dislikes them.
then don't get why they won't change it. There is only so many times that DK can say he likes the baiting around them and they are not doing huge design changes in general.
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On February 07 2014 15:27 vesicular wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 12:57 Emuking wrote:
"For example, why do Zerglings or roaches try to bait out Force Fields if micro against them is not possible?"
They try to bait them out because if they land you can't micro against them. I think Blizzard thinks "baiting" falls under the category of micro. That's a mind game, not micro. Am I wrong here? I'm not sure it matters. People bait out Stim for similar reasons. The point he was trying to make is that there are strategies to make FF interesting on both sides. As a strategy game, that's what you want. The question in my mind however is if FF's are a fun mechanic or not.
I think his statement doesn't make any sense. How can you micro against something that is not even on the map yet? What do you do once it is?
Baiting stims or storms doesn't prevent anyone from doing anything, baiting forcefields on the other hand is not even about the FFs themselves anymore but buying time, catching reinforcements, killing pylons/probe making pylons. It's pretty much like siege tanks in that regard where the opponent tries to make you siege up. If they are sieged you'd never attack. IIRC it was Rain vs Solar yesterday on Yeonsu where Solar successfully baited FFs out of Rain so that his 4 spines would finish before Rain arrives. You don't need FFs to have this kind of player interaction.
It appears to me that Blizzard doesn't consider very specific situations where their problematic units/abilities truly shine as is apparent in DKs answer to if current SH usage is intended.
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On February 07 2014 10:56 Aserrin wrote:
Thanks for proving me wrong. I guess SC2's quality and popularity decay is just a coincidence then.
With that kind of answer I understand why you feel aligned to Kim and Blizzard.
Even with all the "popularity decay", current SC2 is still the second most popular RTS ever...and competitive/ladder SC2 is probably the most popular RTS outside of Korea ever
People tend to forget that SC:BW outside Korea and WC3 had tiny base of players that actually played the actual RTS, and the vast majority only cared about single player campaigns and custom maps.
Granted, the SC2 Arcade is lacking in several ways, but having a hundred thousand more people playing customs doesn't do much for the competitive side.
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