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On February 07 2014 22:11 dUTtrOACh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 21:15 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
They really need to switch kim out of sc2. Enough damage has been done imo. Bring in a fresh face and salvage what's left with the waning popularity of this game. It's really not his fault that the design of the game makes it so difficult to balance. He's probably one of the more qualified people available, and killing his livelihood to take a chance with someone else isn't exactly fair to him considering he hasn't done anything overtly wrong. Blizzard needs to seriously take a look at the flaws in SC2, not necessarily from the heartless, statistical approach of number-balancing, but the approach to up the excitement of the game (without using terrible terrible damage) and spread out the playing field by some means other than making units that are physically bigger than others... Capitol ships, for example, are large but don't spread out the field, because they stack. Colossi are big, but imagine if they didn't stand over the army. Same thing with broods and BCs. Why do these units feel more boring? Because they don't take much/any skill to use and their stacking tends to make the damage output in a concentrated area VERY high. It's like a fat curtain gets spread over the battle and the loser's army dies leaving the viewers wondering wtf happened. Spreading out the army footprints will easily alleviate some of the quickness of battles, but Blizzard is so very proud of the way armies move like a blob.
I would really like to ask Blizzard who came up with the design of most of these units. Almost everything about this game is badly designed and doesn't stick to the tried and true rules of RTS.
It's either Dustin Browder who thinks everthing is fine as long as units are "COOOOOOOL" or David Kim who could be in charge of selecting units from the singleplayer into multi. Either way, they are both incompetent in my opinion and have no business designing or balancing anything.
Seriously, what kind of game do we have now?
1. 200/200 craft
2. Basetrade craft
3. Deathball craft
4. Badly designed units craft
I've thought for a long time now that if I had to choose between the interface limits of BW that got in the way of gameplay or the 200/200 limit that becomes a deciding factor in every game (having resources but can't spend) that leads to all-ins or boring drawn out games... I'd take the interface limits of BW.
Seriously, today's GSL games were disgusting. I feel sorry for gomTV and spoTV and all the people who work hard to organize stuff around this game.
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4713 Posts
On February 07 2014 22:11 dUTtrOACh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 21:15 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
They really need to switch kim out of sc2. Enough damage has been done imo. Bring in a fresh face and salvage what's left with the waning popularity of this game. It's really not his fault that the design of the game makes it so difficult to balance. He's probably one of the more qualified people available, and killing his livelihood to take a chance with someone else isn't exactly fair to him considering he hasn't done anything overtly wrong. Blizzard needs to seriously take a look at the flaws in SC2, not necessarily from the heartless, statistical approach of number-balancing, but the approach to up the excitement of the game (without using terrible terrible damage) and spread out the playing field by some means other than making units that are physically bigger than others... Capitol ships, for example, are large but don't spread out the field, because they stack. Colossi are big, but imagine if they didn't stand over the army. Same thing with broods and BCs. Why do these units feel more boring? Because they don't take much/any skill to use and their stacking tends to make the damage output in a concentrated area VERY high. It's like a fat curtain gets spread over the battle and the loser's army dies leaving the viewers wondering wtf happened. Spreading out the army footprints will easily alleviate some of the quickness of battles, but Blizzard is so very proud of the way armies move like a blob.
After his track record in WoL and HoTS and judging by this most recent Q&A I very much doubt he is one of the most qualified people to look at balance, in fact I'd say he is the last qualified to do so. Killing his livelihood for the sake of SC2 is a very small sacrifice I'd make considering he is potentially killing the livelihood of hundreds of other pro gamers and thousands of aspiring pros, hell if he had any sense of decency or any love for SC2 he should have resigned out of shame for all the damage he has done so far.
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On February 07 2014 21:15 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
They really need to switch kim out of sc2. Enough damage has been done imo. Bring in a fresh face and salvage what's left with the waning popularity of this game.
Him and Browder. Get Rob Pardo on it and maybe LotV will have a chance.
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Meh, this guy.
TvP back in WoL feels glorious now that I think about all the builds I could use back then. I still remember that it used to be frustfrating but comparing it to the state of the match-up currently it just feels much superior. (Terran PoV)
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About rts vs moba, two years ago it was commonly accepted that lol could never succeed as an esports because mobas are difficult to spectate. Funny how times change.
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is rob pardo even bothered with the state of sc2? he seems more interested in d3 and hearthstone
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On February 07 2014 22:21 nojem wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 22:11 dUTtrOACh wrote:On February 07 2014 21:15 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
They really need to switch kim out of sc2. Enough damage has been done imo. Bring in a fresh face and salvage what's left with the waning popularity of this game. It's really not his fault that the design of the game makes it so difficult to balance. He's probably one of the more qualified people available, and killing his livelihood to take a chance with someone else isn't exactly fair to him considering he hasn't done anything overtly wrong. Blizzard needs to seriously take a look at the flaws in SC2, not necessarily from the heartless, statistical approach of number-balancing, but the approach to up the excitement of the game (without using terrible terrible damage) and spread out the playing field by some means other than making units that are physically bigger than others... Capitol ships, for example, are large but don't spread out the field, because they stack. Colossi are big, but imagine if they didn't stand over the army. Same thing with broods and BCs. Why do these units feel more boring? Because they don't take much/any skill to use and their stacking tends to make the damage output in a concentrated area VERY high. It's like a fat curtain gets spread over the battle and the loser's army dies leaving the viewers wondering wtf happened. Spreading out the army footprints will easily alleviate some of the quickness of battles, but Blizzard is so very proud of the way armies move like a blob. I would really like to ask Blizzard who came up with the design of most of these units. Almost everything about this game is badly designed and doesn't stick to the tried and true rules of RTS.
As long as you are aware that most designs are just remodeled BW units that got adapted with balance and the improved controls in mind.
Still think they made the game a tad bit to fast and instead of slowing it down decreased the killer stuff if someone pays no attention. Would have slowed the game down a bit and sticked with the strong AoEs.
But I actually do hope they bring in the possibility to add a selection limit to units in the editor. The limit actually makes defense against harassment easier, since your opponent usually only sends in group selection, so its easier to choose the right amount of units. Nothing that helps the main game, but thanks to the mod extension everyone could test Sc2 out with it.
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On February 07 2014 08:08 Eliezar wrote:
Its funny to see so many positive comments about War3 here. When War3 was out the general Broodwar response to it was how it was so inferior to Broodwar. You even heard a ton of that from Artosis and Tasteless in the first 4-5 GSL seasons always talking about how the former Broodwar players were just better than the War3 players and insulting the game.
Now you have the same thing. Sorry to say but StarCraft 2 is so much better than Broodwar it isn't funny. Although I think we took two steps in the wrong direction in HotS (Swarmhost and widowmines - oh my when they also detected...) just like Blizzard put in some bad unit choices when Broodwar came out (Corsair, Valk, Medic - healing rate, Lurker) as well. I think overall the game is better unlike Broodwar and the design team has done a great job.
Some things that StarCraft 2 really improved on Broodwar on:
1) Mobility of Terran and Protoss (this was very limited in Broodwar, game plays more fluidly and quicker).
2) Reducing Terran macro to LOL easy, Protoss to easy, and zerg to moderate. They also added in a skill element to each class to reward multitasking in the Mule, Chronoboost, and Larvae Inject, but the Larvae inject is more difficult than the other two.
The strange thing in this thread is people saying removing warp gate would make protoss macro harder. No it would be insanely easier. Pressing '3' and 'z' while watching your army and letting troops rally to you (the terran model) is easier and safer while pressing '1' '1' to get to your pylon and then wargate and spam mouse click while holding down 'z' is quite more demanding and requires your screen to be off.
This thread makes me wonder how people can have such strong balance demands from David Kim and yet not even understand the most basic fundamentals of how the game works.
Terran is tougher micro, easier macro than Toss. Toss is easier micro, tougher macro than Terran. Simplistically as an overarching theme. There are obviously ways to play each that change that (the weird Thor attack move rush with scvs on autorepair is obviously less micro intensive --- and yes Artosis streamed himself losing to that in a GSL qualifier)
Oh man. Nice troll. You had me here. Wait are you serious ?...
I'll never play bw again because I feel the flow is so much better in sc2 than in bw, but to say that blizz put some bad units choice in BW is just retarded. Plain retarded. It made the game way more dynamic and balanced. Please refrain from posting anymore because it's quite obvious you're a war3's fan / bw's hater.
Edit : or a die hard starcraft's fan that never got the courage to get good @ bw and keep owning scrubs while massing units. Maybe you should've stayed in bgh.
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On February 07 2014 04:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 03:47 Whitewing wrote:On February 06 2014 20:19 Dapper_Cad wrote:On February 06 2014 18:36 Zealously wrote:On February 06 2014 16:58 lichter wrote:On February 06 2014 16:54 markrevival wrote:
i feel like there needs to be a separate forum here for people who hate StarCraft 2. Zealously would probably continue to read that forum bec he is a masochist Nah I'd just blanket ban everyone If this forum had a purge of assholes, would any of us be safe? Incidentally... Hey, assholes, this past month a key member of the design team has been attempting to engage with the SC2 community. Are we just going to pretty much ignore that? Yes, tribalism is fun. Who doesn't like to "I-just-discovered-potterying it up" by a roaring fire, explaining to each other why "they" are not only wrong but evil? But after the rosy glow of self righteous furvour fades? What did he say again? David Kim isn't the captain of the good ship SC2. Right now it's patch time and the kind of change he can get done is limited. We don't generally do unit design changes with patches (only exception here I can think of off the top of my head was when we added the Phoenix range upgrade back in Wings), Harassment options always seem overpowered at first. Implying that the balance team don't pay too much attention to initial community feedback on harassment changes. Harassment options such as the Oracle harass get weaker over time due to players learning how to defend better against them. European PvZ is especially broken for some reason. We don't like seeing games where two players both just sit back and mass up to their composition before engaging. This is why we're currently looking into the EU late game PvZ issue. David Kim is watching swarm host games he likes (Proleague?) Games where Swarm Hosts are used and there's constant action everywhere including Swarm Hosts aggressively moving around often after spawning locusts leading into each side's victory are really fun to watch. There's a lot of other stuff, including a good bit about PvT, but just from this... If you're interested in engaging with, rather than insulting, David Kim and the balance team you might solve a problem they are working of that I think most of the community recognise as a problem. He pretty much asks for help at one point. [In] late game PvZ situation where both players refuse to engage and the game drags on for a long time. We'd really love to come up with an awesome solution to this problem without hurting the good uses of Swarm Hosts. Maybe, just maybe you can apply your gargantuan brain to think of a clever way, within the constraints of a patch, of fixing the problem. It's unfixable you say? Then what the hell are you doing in this thread? Go agitate for deeper changes with LotV or support Starbow or make your own mod. Right now this thread is 50% mixed whining and simple toxicity making it barely readable. When we reach background levels of crazy then come back. We'll have missed you! Wow, someone with the correct attitude, who knew? I know, that post was a joy to read. I love the myth that being a negative asshole somehow will get people to change. It's like in dota when people yell at their teammates and I wonder "why would yelling at him make him better at the game?"
Thank you Dapper_Cad, Whitewing, Plansix, and all others that keep a positive state of mind. This is real discussion. I honestly get rather tired of poo flinging sometimes.
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On February 07 2014 23:01 vjcamarena wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 04:01 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 03:47 Whitewing wrote:On February 06 2014 20:19 Dapper_Cad wrote:On February 06 2014 18:36 Zealously wrote:On February 06 2014 16:58 lichter wrote:On February 06 2014 16:54 markrevival wrote:
i feel like there needs to be a separate forum here for people who hate StarCraft 2. Zealously would probably continue to read that forum bec he is a masochist Nah I'd just blanket ban everyone If this forum had a purge of assholes, would any of us be safe? Incidentally... Hey, assholes, this past month a key member of the design team has been attempting to engage with the SC2 community. Are we just going to pretty much ignore that? Yes, tribalism is fun. Who doesn't like to "I-just-discovered-potterying it up" by a roaring fire, explaining to each other why "they" are not only wrong but evil? But after the rosy glow of self righteous furvour fades? What did he say again? David Kim isn't the captain of the good ship SC2. Right now it's patch time and the kind of change he can get done is limited. We don't generally do unit design changes with patches (only exception here I can think of off the top of my head was when we added the Phoenix range upgrade back in Wings), Harassment options always seem overpowered at first. Implying that the balance team don't pay too much attention to initial community feedback on harassment changes. Harassment options such as the Oracle harass get weaker over time due to players learning how to defend better against them. European PvZ is especially broken for some reason. We don't like seeing games where two players both just sit back and mass up to their composition before engaging. This is why we're currently looking into the EU late game PvZ issue. David Kim is watching swarm host games he likes (Proleague?) Games where Swarm Hosts are used and there's constant action everywhere including Swarm Hosts aggressively moving around often after spawning locusts leading into each side's victory are really fun to watch. There's a lot of other stuff, including a good bit about PvT, but just from this... If you're interested in engaging with, rather than insulting, David Kim and the balance team you might solve a problem they are working of that I think most of the community recognise as a problem. He pretty much asks for help at one point. [In] late game PvZ situation where both players refuse to engage and the game drags on for a long time. We'd really love to come up with an awesome solution to this problem without hurting the good uses of Swarm Hosts. Maybe, just maybe you can apply your gargantuan brain to think of a clever way, within the constraints of a patch, of fixing the problem. It's unfixable you say? Then what the hell are you doing in this thread? Go agitate for deeper changes with LotV or support Starbow or make your own mod. Right now this thread is 50% mixed whining and simple toxicity making it barely readable. When we reach background levels of crazy then come back. We'll have missed you! Wow, someone with the correct attitude, who knew? I know, that post was a joy to read. I love the myth that being a negative asshole somehow will get people to change. It's like in dota when people yell at their teammates and I wonder "why would yelling at him make him better at the game?" Thank you Dapper_Cad, Whitewing, Plansix, and all others that keep a positive state of mind. This is real discussion. I honestly get rather tired of poo flinging sometimes.
We do what we can. Sadly there are people who sill believe that do thy throw enough poo at Blizzard, it will somehow make them listen.
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It worked with Diablo 3 and Jay Wilson. Being constructive and nice hasn't for 5(?) years.
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On February 07 2014 23:07 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 23:01 vjcamarena wrote:On February 07 2014 04:01 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 03:47 Whitewing wrote:On February 06 2014 20:19 Dapper_Cad wrote:On February 06 2014 18:36 Zealously wrote:On February 06 2014 16:58 lichter wrote:On February 06 2014 16:54 markrevival wrote:
i feel like there needs to be a separate forum here for people who hate StarCraft 2. Zealously would probably continue to read that forum bec he is a masochist Nah I'd just blanket ban everyone If this forum had a purge of assholes, would any of us be safe? Incidentally... Hey, assholes, this past month a key member of the design team has been attempting to engage with the SC2 community. Are we just going to pretty much ignore that? Yes, tribalism is fun. Who doesn't like to "I-just-discovered-potterying it up" by a roaring fire, explaining to each other why "they" are not only wrong but evil? But after the rosy glow of self righteous furvour fades? What did he say again? David Kim isn't the captain of the good ship SC2. Right now it's patch time and the kind of change he can get done is limited. We don't generally do unit design changes with patches (only exception here I can think of off the top of my head was when we added the Phoenix range upgrade back in Wings), Harassment options always seem overpowered at first. Implying that the balance team don't pay too much attention to initial community feedback on harassment changes. Harassment options such as the Oracle harass get weaker over time due to players learning how to defend better against them. European PvZ is especially broken for some reason. We don't like seeing games where two players both just sit back and mass up to their composition before engaging. This is why we're currently looking into the EU late game PvZ issue. David Kim is watching swarm host games he likes (Proleague?) Games where Swarm Hosts are used and there's constant action everywhere including Swarm Hosts aggressively moving around often after spawning locusts leading into each side's victory are really fun to watch. There's a lot of other stuff, including a good bit about PvT, but just from this... If you're interested in engaging with, rather than insulting, David Kim and the balance team you might solve a problem they are working of that I think most of the community recognise as a problem. He pretty much asks for help at one point. [In] late game PvZ situation where both players refuse to engage and the game drags on for a long time. We'd really love to come up with an awesome solution to this problem without hurting the good uses of Swarm Hosts. Maybe, just maybe you can apply your gargantuan brain to think of a clever way, within the constraints of a patch, of fixing the problem. It's unfixable you say? Then what the hell are you doing in this thread? Go agitate for deeper changes with LotV or support Starbow or make your own mod. Right now this thread is 50% mixed whining and simple toxicity making it barely readable. When we reach background levels of crazy then come back. We'll have missed you! Wow, someone with the correct attitude, who knew? I know, that post was a joy to read. I love the myth that being a negative asshole somehow will get people to change. It's like in dota when people yell at their teammates and I wonder "why would yelling at him make him better at the game?" Thank you Dapper_Cad, Whitewing, Plansix, and all others that keep a positive state of mind. This is real discussion. I honestly get rather tired of poo flinging sometimes. We do what we can. Sadly there are people who sill believe that do thy throw enough poo at Blizzard, it will somehow make them listen.
And what will you achieve?
You're only gonna produce toned down and watered-out criticism in times when drastic measures are needed.
By your definition I am probably a poo flinger. However, I don't expect changes because people are whining. I expect changes because people are quitting the game.
The whining is just a symptom.
edit: I might pick up StarBow though. Those new spider mines look awesome.
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On February 07 2014 23:15 nojem wrote:
It worked with Diablo 3 and Jay Wilson. Being constructive and nice hasn't for 5(?) years.
But it wasn't the poop flinging that changed D3. It was a well thought out argument and constructive criticism from all sides. Blizzard will likely try improve SC2 in the next expansion, but you can't expect them to crowd source those changes.
But demanding people be fired or pulled off the game never changed anything.
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On February 07 2014 23:16 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 23:07 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 23:01 vjcamarena wrote:On February 07 2014 04:01 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 03:47 Whitewing wrote:On February 06 2014 20:19 Dapper_Cad wrote:On February 06 2014 18:36 Zealously wrote:On February 06 2014 16:58 lichter wrote:On February 06 2014 16:54 markrevival wrote:
i feel like there needs to be a separate forum here for people who hate StarCraft 2. Zealously would probably continue to read that forum bec he is a masochist Nah I'd just blanket ban everyone If this forum had a purge of assholes, would any of us be safe? Incidentally... Hey, assholes, this past month a key member of the design team has been attempting to engage with the SC2 community. Are we just going to pretty much ignore that? Yes, tribalism is fun. Who doesn't like to "I-just-discovered-potterying it up" by a roaring fire, explaining to each other why "they" are not only wrong but evil? But after the rosy glow of self righteous furvour fades? What did he say again? David Kim isn't the captain of the good ship SC2. Right now it's patch time and the kind of change he can get done is limited. We don't generally do unit design changes with patches (only exception here I can think of off the top of my head was when we added the Phoenix range upgrade back in Wings), Harassment options always seem overpowered at first. Implying that the balance team don't pay too much attention to initial community feedback on harassment changes. Harassment options such as the Oracle harass get weaker over time due to players learning how to defend better against them. European PvZ is especially broken for some reason. We don't like seeing games where two players both just sit back and mass up to their composition before engaging. This is why we're currently looking into the EU late game PvZ issue. David Kim is watching swarm host games he likes (Proleague?) Games where Swarm Hosts are used and there's constant action everywhere including Swarm Hosts aggressively moving around often after spawning locusts leading into each side's victory are really fun to watch. There's a lot of other stuff, including a good bit about PvT, but just from this... If you're interested in engaging with, rather than insulting, David Kim and the balance team you might solve a problem they are working of that I think most of the community recognise as a problem. He pretty much asks for help at one point. [In] late game PvZ situation where both players refuse to engage and the game drags on for a long time. We'd really love to come up with an awesome solution to this problem without hurting the good uses of Swarm Hosts. Maybe, just maybe you can apply your gargantuan brain to think of a clever way, within the constraints of a patch, of fixing the problem. It's unfixable you say? Then what the hell are you doing in this thread? Go agitate for deeper changes with LotV or support Starbow or make your own mod. Right now this thread is 50% mixed whining and simple toxicity making it barely readable. When we reach background levels of crazy then come back. We'll have missed you! Wow, someone with the correct attitude, who knew? I know, that post was a joy to read. I love the myth that being a negative asshole somehow will get people to change. It's like in dota when people yell at their teammates and I wonder "why would yelling at him make him better at the game?" Thank you Dapper_Cad, Whitewing, Plansix, and all others that keep a positive state of mind. This is real discussion. I honestly get rather tired of poo flinging sometimes. We do what we can. Sadly there are people who sill believe that do thy throw enough poo at Blizzard, it will somehow make them listen. And what will you achieve? You're only gonna produce toned down and watered-out criticism in times when drastic measures are needed. By your definition I am probably a poo flinger. However, I don't expect changes because people are whining. I expect changes because people are quitting the game. The whining is just a symptom. edit: I might pick up StarBow though. Those new spider mines look awesome.
Well because I am so positive and a fan of MLG, they asked me to be a beta tester for their video player Xbox app. I also told them that they should focus on VODs, since that is a thing that twitch sucks at and I care about a lot. And when I complain about something or point out a problem, I normally get a response on twitter.
Do I change the world? Not likely. Am I listened to more than someone posting how much MLG sucked and needs to get their act together? Always.
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On February 07 2014 23:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 23:15 nojem wrote:
It worked with Diablo 3 and Jay Wilson. Being constructive and nice hasn't for 5(?) years. But it wasn't the poop flinging that changed D3. It was a well thought out argument and constructive criticism from all sides. Blizzard will likely try improve SC2 in the next expansion, but you can't expect them to crowd source those changes. But demanding people be fired or pulled off the game never changed anything.
Actually, that generally brings in a lot of change. When someone is incompetent in a position of authority, there's generally a period of constructive criticism. When that fails, people lose trust in that person. Almost no matter what they will do afterwards, winning back people's trust is not going to happen. And that's the case with David Kim - he has slipped one too many times, made unanimous decisions and given reasoning to justify these in ways which the majority of people consider unrepresentative of the facts. While I'm generally pretty damn positive about people, I can see why a lot of people think he should go now. I might be leaning towards seeing what he'll do in the coming weeks now that he has started pushing out balance patches, test maps and Q&A sessions, but it's not unreasonable for people to say "too little, too late."
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On February 07 2014 23:16 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 23:07 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 23:01 vjcamarena wrote:On February 07 2014 04:01 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 03:47 Whitewing wrote:On February 06 2014 20:19 Dapper_Cad wrote:On February 06 2014 18:36 Zealously wrote:On February 06 2014 16:58 lichter wrote:On February 06 2014 16:54 markrevival wrote:
i feel like there needs to be a separate forum here for people who hate StarCraft 2. Zealously would probably continue to read that forum bec he is a masochist Nah I'd just blanket ban everyone If this forum had a purge of assholes, would any of us be safe? Incidentally... Hey, assholes, this past month a key member of the design team has been attempting to engage with the SC2 community. Are we just going to pretty much ignore that? Yes, tribalism is fun. Who doesn't like to "I-just-discovered-potterying it up" by a roaring fire, explaining to each other why "they" are not only wrong but evil? But after the rosy glow of self righteous furvour fades? What did he say again? David Kim isn't the captain of the good ship SC2. Right now it's patch time and the kind of change he can get done is limited. We don't generally do unit design changes with patches (only exception here I can think of off the top of my head was when we added the Phoenix range upgrade back in Wings), Harassment options always seem overpowered at first. Implying that the balance team don't pay too much attention to initial community feedback on harassment changes. Harassment options such as the Oracle harass get weaker over time due to players learning how to defend better against them. European PvZ is especially broken for some reason. We don't like seeing games where two players both just sit back and mass up to their composition before engaging. This is why we're currently looking into the EU late game PvZ issue. David Kim is watching swarm host games he likes (Proleague?) Games where Swarm Hosts are used and there's constant action everywhere including Swarm Hosts aggressively moving around often after spawning locusts leading into each side's victory are really fun to watch. There's a lot of other stuff, including a good bit about PvT, but just from this... If you're interested in engaging with, rather than insulting, David Kim and the balance team you might solve a problem they are working of that I think most of the community recognise as a problem. He pretty much asks for help at one point. [In] late game PvZ situation where both players refuse to engage and the game drags on for a long time. We'd really love to come up with an awesome solution to this problem without hurting the good uses of Swarm Hosts. Maybe, just maybe you can apply your gargantuan brain to think of a clever way, within the constraints of a patch, of fixing the problem. It's unfixable you say? Then what the hell are you doing in this thread? Go agitate for deeper changes with LotV or support Starbow or make your own mod. Right now this thread is 50% mixed whining and simple toxicity making it barely readable. When we reach background levels of crazy then come back. We'll have missed you! Wow, someone with the correct attitude, who knew? I know, that post was a joy to read. I love the myth that being a negative asshole somehow will get people to change. It's like in dota when people yell at their teammates and I wonder "why would yelling at him make him better at the game?" Thank you Dapper_Cad, Whitewing, Plansix, and all others that keep a positive state of mind. This is real discussion. I honestly get rather tired of poo flinging sometimes. We do what we can. Sadly there are people who sill believe that do thy throw enough poo at Blizzard, it will somehow make them listen. And what will you achieve? You're only gonna produce toned down and watered-out criticism in times when drastic measures are needed. By your definition I am probably a poo flinger. However, I don't expect changes because people are whining. I expect changes because people are quitting the game. The whining is just a symptom. edit: I might pick up StarBow though. Those new spider mines look awesome.
It was me who mentioned "poo flinging", just so you don't blame Plansix.
I didn't mean to insult you, and I don't even know if you are a "poo flinger" as per my own definition. You are quite critical in some of the posts I've seen of you, and very acidic on others, but you've also done some factual discussion. (Thanks TL post search!).
I just personally have this feeling that many people come here to vent the fact that they dont like a game that the are somehow "supposed to like". And all the fault is Blizzard's or David Kim's.
None of them seems to reason that maybe the game Blizzard is making is not for them (which is fine, seriously), or that even though they liked SC:BW when they were younger, they are now not as easily impressed, or any other reasoning at all.
I think (just an opinion) that this group of people are really vocal and get the idea that people that like, watch and/or play the game don't really exist. That everyone agrees with them. That they are being personally victimized by "those horrible designers/developers".
Look, this is a great game, for many people. There's about 10.000 people watching it whenever I check twitch, and much more during big tournaments (sometimes up to 100.000 concurrently!). Those people might not be here talking, but they exist.
On the actual AMA:
Dayvie publicly accepted during the HOTS launch that they got better at balancing the game during the game (something anyone could reasonably expect). Ever since then he's been communicating more often than in WOL, and this was a short and limited session, yes, but also the first time he does anything like this. I like AMAs and would love to see him talk to the community more often, so I try to be positive to encourage it.
And yeah, backlash can help a developer understand when they do something people don't like. I just feel like the Starcraft community goes WAY negative, all of the time. This time we didn't hear anything too crazy. The most important part about the AMA was the fact that they were making one, what they said just reinforced what we knew. And STILL people are negative. I don't get it.
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On February 07 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 23:16 one-one-one wrote:On February 07 2014 23:07 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 23:01 vjcamarena wrote:On February 07 2014 04:01 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 03:47 Whitewing wrote:On February 06 2014 20:19 Dapper_Cad wrote:On February 06 2014 18:36 Zealously wrote:On February 06 2014 16:58 lichter wrote:On February 06 2014 16:54 markrevival wrote:
i feel like there needs to be a separate forum here for people who hate StarCraft 2. Zealously would probably continue to read that forum bec he is a masochist Nah I'd just blanket ban everyone If this forum had a purge of assholes, would any of us be safe? Incidentally... Hey, assholes, this past month a key member of the design team has been attempting to engage with the SC2 community. Are we just going to pretty much ignore that? Yes, tribalism is fun. Who doesn't like to "I-just-discovered-potterying it up" by a roaring fire, explaining to each other why "they" are not only wrong but evil? But after the rosy glow of self righteous furvour fades? What did he say again? David Kim isn't the captain of the good ship SC2. Right now it's patch time and the kind of change he can get done is limited. We don't generally do unit design changes with patches (only exception here I can think of off the top of my head was when we added the Phoenix range upgrade back in Wings), Harassment options always seem overpowered at first. Implying that the balance team don't pay too much attention to initial community feedback on harassment changes. Harassment options such as the Oracle harass get weaker over time due to players learning how to defend better against them. European PvZ is especially broken for some reason. We don't like seeing games where two players both just sit back and mass up to their composition before engaging. This is why we're currently looking into the EU late game PvZ issue. David Kim is watching swarm host games he likes (Proleague?) Games where Swarm Hosts are used and there's constant action everywhere including Swarm Hosts aggressively moving around often after spawning locusts leading into each side's victory are really fun to watch. There's a lot of other stuff, including a good bit about PvT, but just from this... If you're interested in engaging with, rather than insulting, David Kim and the balance team you might solve a problem they are working of that I think most of the community recognise as a problem. He pretty much asks for help at one point. [In] late game PvZ situation where both players refuse to engage and the game drags on for a long time. We'd really love to come up with an awesome solution to this problem without hurting the good uses of Swarm Hosts. Maybe, just maybe you can apply your gargantuan brain to think of a clever way, within the constraints of a patch, of fixing the problem. It's unfixable you say? Then what the hell are you doing in this thread? Go agitate for deeper changes with LotV or support Starbow or make your own mod. Right now this thread is 50% mixed whining and simple toxicity making it barely readable. When we reach background levels of crazy then come back. We'll have missed you! Wow, someone with the correct attitude, who knew? I know, that post was a joy to read. I love the myth that being a negative asshole somehow will get people to change. It's like in dota when people yell at their teammates and I wonder "why would yelling at him make him better at the game?" Thank you Dapper_Cad, Whitewing, Plansix, and all others that keep a positive state of mind. This is real discussion. I honestly get rather tired of poo flinging sometimes. We do what we can. Sadly there are people who sill believe that do thy throw enough poo at Blizzard, it will somehow make them listen. And what will you achieve? You're only gonna produce toned down and watered-out criticism in times when drastic measures are needed. By your definition I am probably a poo flinger. However, I don't expect changes because people are whining. I expect changes because people are quitting the game. The whining is just a symptom. edit: I might pick up StarBow though. Those new spider mines look awesome. Well because I am so positive and a fan of MLG, they asked me to be a beta tester for their video player Xbox app. I also told them that they should focus on VODs, since that is a thing that twitch sucks at and I care about a lot. And when I complain about something or point out a problem, I normally get a response on twitter. Do I change the world? Not likely. Am I listened to more than someone posting how much MLG sucked and needs to get their act together? Always.
You got to test a beta video player for Xbox. Oh the privilege, lol.
Money makes companies change their minds. That is why I don't play or watch SC2 anymore.
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*Chuckles* Everyone here is whining about balance which is obviously not the problem at hand.
Its the design of the game that needs to be drastically changed. SC2 is a young boy that climaxes too quickly and I'm of course talking about its action aspect.
In the end, if the game is genuinely fun to enjoy, one fan of such game shouldn't never be worried about its future.
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On February 07 2014 23:43 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 23:16 one-one-one wrote:On February 07 2014 23:07 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 23:01 vjcamarena wrote:On February 07 2014 04:01 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 03:47 Whitewing wrote:On February 06 2014 20:19 Dapper_Cad wrote:On February 06 2014 18:36 Zealously wrote:On February 06 2014 16:58 lichter wrote:
[quote]
Zealously would probably continue to read that forum bec he is a masochist Nah I'd just blanket ban everyone If this forum had a purge of assholes, would any of us be safe? Incidentally... Hey, assholes, this past month a key member of the design team has been attempting to engage with the SC2 community. Are we just going to pretty much ignore that? Yes, tribalism is fun. Who doesn't like to "I-just-discovered-potterying it up" by a roaring fire, explaining to each other why "they" are not only wrong but evil? But after the rosy glow of self righteous furvour fades? What did he say again? David Kim isn't the captain of the good ship SC2. Right now it's patch time and the kind of change he can get done is limited. We don't generally do unit design changes with patches (only exception here I can think of off the top of my head was when we added the Phoenix range upgrade back in Wings), Harassment options always seem overpowered at first. Implying that the balance team don't pay too much attention to initial community feedback on harassment changes. Harassment options such as the Oracle harass get weaker over time due to players learning how to defend better against them. European PvZ is especially broken for some reason. We don't like seeing games where two players both just sit back and mass up to their composition before engaging. This is why we're currently looking into the EU late game PvZ issue. David Kim is watching swarm host games he likes (Proleague?) Games where Swarm Hosts are used and there's constant action everywhere including Swarm Hosts aggressively moving around often after spawning locusts leading into each side's victory are really fun to watch. There's a lot of other stuff, including a good bit about PvT, but just from this... If you're interested in engaging with, rather than insulting, David Kim and the balance team you might solve a problem they are working of that I think most of the community recognise as a problem. He pretty much asks for help at one point. [In] late game PvZ situation where both players refuse to engage and the game drags on for a long time. We'd really love to come up with an awesome solution to this problem without hurting the good uses of Swarm Hosts. Maybe, just maybe you can apply your gargantuan brain to think of a clever way, within the constraints of a patch, of fixing the problem. It's unfixable you say? Then what the hell are you doing in this thread? Go agitate for deeper changes with LotV or support Starbow or make your own mod. Right now this thread is 50% mixed whining and simple toxicity making it barely readable. When we reach background levels of crazy then come back. We'll have missed you! Wow, someone with the correct attitude, who knew? I know, that post was a joy to read. I love the myth that being a negative asshole somehow will get people to change. It's like in dota when people yell at their teammates and I wonder "why would yelling at him make him better at the game?" Thank you Dapper_Cad, Whitewing, Plansix, and all others that keep a positive state of mind. This is real discussion. I honestly get rather tired of poo flinging sometimes. We do what we can. Sadly there are people who sill believe that do thy throw enough poo at Blizzard, it will somehow make them listen. And what will you achieve? You're only gonna produce toned down and watered-out criticism in times when drastic measures are needed. By your definition I am probably a poo flinger. However, I don't expect changes because people are whining. I expect changes because people are quitting the game. The whining is just a symptom. edit: I might pick up StarBow though. Those new spider mines look awesome. Well because I am so positive and a fan of MLG, they asked me to be a beta tester for their video player Xbox app. I also told them that they should focus on VODs, since that is a thing that twitch sucks at and I care about a lot. And when I complain about something or point out a problem, I normally get a response on twitter. Do I change the world? Not likely. Am I listened to more than someone posting how much MLG sucked and needs to get their act together? Always. You got to test a beta video player for Xbox. Oh the privilege, lol. Money makes companies change their minds. That is why I don't play or watch SC2 anymore.
To each their own. I find being a fan gets a better response than saying "I'm not watching till you shape up and do what I want", but maybe it will work for you. I would rather be listened to and get a response, even if it's not exactly what I want.
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On February 07 2014 23:43 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 23:16 one-one-one wrote:On February 07 2014 23:07 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 23:01 vjcamarena wrote:On February 07 2014 04:01 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 03:47 Whitewing wrote:On February 06 2014 20:19 Dapper_Cad wrote:On February 06 2014 18:36 Zealously wrote:On February 06 2014 16:58 lichter wrote:
[quote]
Zealously would probably continue to read that forum bec he is a masochist Nah I'd just blanket ban everyone If this forum had a purge of assholes, would any of us be safe? Incidentally... Hey, assholes, this past month a key member of the design team has been attempting to engage with the SC2 community. Are we just going to pretty much ignore that? Yes, tribalism is fun. Who doesn't like to "I-just-discovered-potterying it up" by a roaring fire, explaining to each other why "they" are not only wrong but evil? But after the rosy glow of self righteous furvour fades? What did he say again? David Kim isn't the captain of the good ship SC2. Right now it's patch time and the kind of change he can get done is limited. We don't generally do unit design changes with patches (only exception here I can think of off the top of my head was when we added the Phoenix range upgrade back in Wings), Harassment options always seem overpowered at first. Implying that the balance team don't pay too much attention to initial community feedback on harassment changes. Harassment options such as the Oracle harass get weaker over time due to players learning how to defend better against them. European PvZ is especially broken for some reason. We don't like seeing games where two players both just sit back and mass up to their composition before engaging. This is why we're currently looking into the EU late game PvZ issue. David Kim is watching swarm host games he likes (Proleague?) Games where Swarm Hosts are used and there's constant action everywhere including Swarm Hosts aggressively moving around often after spawning locusts leading into each side's victory are really fun to watch. There's a lot of other stuff, including a good bit about PvT, but just from this... If you're interested in engaging with, rather than insulting, David Kim and the balance team you might solve a problem they are working of that I think most of the community recognise as a problem. He pretty much asks for help at one point. [In] late game PvZ situation where both players refuse to engage and the game drags on for a long time. We'd really love to come up with an awesome solution to this problem without hurting the good uses of Swarm Hosts. Maybe, just maybe you can apply your gargantuan brain to think of a clever way, within the constraints of a patch, of fixing the problem. It's unfixable you say? Then what the hell are you doing in this thread? Go agitate for deeper changes with LotV or support Starbow or make your own mod. Right now this thread is 50% mixed whining and simple toxicity making it barely readable. When we reach background levels of crazy then come back. We'll have missed you! Wow, someone with the correct attitude, who knew? I know, that post was a joy to read. I love the myth that being a negative asshole somehow will get people to change. It's like in dota when people yell at their teammates and I wonder "why would yelling at him make him better at the game?" Thank you Dapper_Cad, Whitewing, Plansix, and all others that keep a positive state of mind. This is real discussion. I honestly get rather tired of poo flinging sometimes. We do what we can. Sadly there are people who sill believe that do thy throw enough poo at Blizzard, it will somehow make them listen. And what will you achieve? You're only gonna produce toned down and watered-out criticism in times when drastic measures are needed. By your definition I am probably a poo flinger. However, I don't expect changes because people are whining. I expect changes because people are quitting the game. The whining is just a symptom. edit: I might pick up StarBow though. Those new spider mines look awesome. Well because I am so positive and a fan of MLG, they asked me to be a beta tester for their video player Xbox app. I also told them that they should focus on VODs, since that is a thing that twitch sucks at and I care about a lot. And when I complain about something or point out a problem, I normally get a response on twitter. Do I change the world? Not likely. Am I listened to more than someone posting how much MLG sucked and needs to get their act together? Always. You got to test a beta video player for Xbox. Oh the privilege, lol. Money makes companies change their minds. That is why I don't play or watch SC2 anymore.
With all due respect, sir: by the following reasoning "Money makes companies change their minds. That is why I don't play or watch SC2 anymore." you should stop doing anything you usually do at all.
Do you like sports? Movies? Music? Anything else? Food, clothing and houses? Drinking water and electricity? Because all of those are made by companies who change their minds when money is involved. That doesn't make them or their products bad.
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EPT
