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On February 07 2014 23:54 vjcamarena wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 23:43 one-one-one wrote:On February 07 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 23:16 one-one-one wrote:On February 07 2014 23:07 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 23:01 vjcamarena wrote:On February 07 2014 04:01 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 03:47 Whitewing wrote:On February 06 2014 20:19 Dapper_Cad wrote:On February 06 2014 18:36 Zealously wrote:
[quote]
Nah I'd just blanket ban everyone If this forum had a purge of assholes, would any of us be safe? Incidentally... Hey, assholes, this past month a key member of the design team has been attempting to engage with the SC2 community. Are we just going to pretty much ignore that? Yes, tribalism is fun. Who doesn't like to "I-just-discovered-potterying it up" by a roaring fire, explaining to each other why "they" are not only wrong but evil? But after the rosy glow of self righteous furvour fades? What did he say again? David Kim isn't the captain of the good ship SC2. Right now it's patch time and the kind of change he can get done is limited. We don't generally do unit design changes with patches (only exception here I can think of off the top of my head was when we added the Phoenix range upgrade back in Wings), Harassment options always seem overpowered at first. Implying that the balance team don't pay too much attention to initial community feedback on harassment changes. Harassment options such as the Oracle harass get weaker over time due to players learning how to defend better against them. European PvZ is especially broken for some reason. We don't like seeing games where two players both just sit back and mass up to their composition before engaging. This is why we're currently looking into the EU late game PvZ issue. David Kim is watching swarm host games he likes (Proleague?) Games where Swarm Hosts are used and there's constant action everywhere including Swarm Hosts aggressively moving around often after spawning locusts leading into each side's victory are really fun to watch. There's a lot of other stuff, including a good bit about PvT, but just from this... If you're interested in engaging with, rather than insulting, David Kim and the balance team you might solve a problem they are working of that I think most of the community recognise as a problem. He pretty much asks for help at one point. [In] late game PvZ situation where both players refuse to engage and the game drags on for a long time. We'd really love to come up with an awesome solution to this problem without hurting the good uses of Swarm Hosts. Maybe, just maybe you can apply your gargantuan brain to think of a clever way, within the constraints of a patch, of fixing the problem. It's unfixable you say? Then what the hell are you doing in this thread? Go agitate for deeper changes with LotV or support Starbow or make your own mod. Right now this thread is 50% mixed whining and simple toxicity making it barely readable. When we reach background levels of crazy then come back. We'll have missed you! Wow, someone with the correct attitude, who knew? I know, that post was a joy to read. I love the myth that being a negative asshole somehow will get people to change. It's like in dota when people yell at their teammates and I wonder "why would yelling at him make him better at the game?" Thank you Dapper_Cad, Whitewing, Plansix, and all others that keep a positive state of mind. This is real discussion. I honestly get rather tired of poo flinging sometimes. We do what we can. Sadly there are people who sill believe that do thy throw enough poo at Blizzard, it will somehow make them listen. And what will you achieve? You're only gonna produce toned down and watered-out criticism in times when drastic measures are needed. By your definition I am probably a poo flinger. However, I don't expect changes because people are whining. I expect changes because people are quitting the game. The whining is just a symptom. edit: I might pick up StarBow though. Those new spider mines look awesome. Well because I am so positive and a fan of MLG, they asked me to be a beta tester for their video player Xbox app. I also told them that they should focus on VODs, since that is a thing that twitch sucks at and I care about a lot. And when I complain about something or point out a problem, I normally get a response on twitter. Do I change the world? Not likely. Am I listened to more than someone posting how much MLG sucked and needs to get their act together? Always. You got to test a beta video player for Xbox. Oh the privilege, lol. Money makes companies change their minds. That is why I don't play or watch SC2 anymore. With all due respect, sir: by the following reasoning "Money makes companies change their minds. That is why I don't play or watch SC2 anymore." you should stop doing anything you usually do at all. Do you like sports? Movies? Music? Anything else? Food, clothing and houses? Drinking water and electricity? Because all of those are made by companies who change their minds when money is involved. That doesn't make them or their products bad.
You are right.
It is called a free market.
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On February 08 2014 00:02 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 23:54 vjcamarena wrote:On February 07 2014 23:43 one-one-one wrote:On February 07 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 23:16 one-one-one wrote:On February 07 2014 23:07 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 23:01 vjcamarena wrote:On February 07 2014 04:01 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 03:47 Whitewing wrote:On February 06 2014 20:19 Dapper_Cad wrote:
[quote]
If this forum had a purge of assholes, would any of us be safe?
Incidentally... Hey, assholes, this past month a key member of the design team has been attempting to engage with the SC2 community. Are we just going to pretty much ignore that? Yes, tribalism is fun. Who doesn't like to "I-just-discovered-potterying it up" by a roaring fire, explaining to each other why "they" are not only wrong but evil?
But after the rosy glow of self righteous furvour fades? What did he say again?
David Kim isn't the captain of the good ship SC2. Right now it's patch time and the kind of change he can get done is limited.
[quote]
Harassment options always seem overpowered at first. Implying that the balance team don't pay too much attention to initial community feedback on harassment changes.
[quote]
European PvZ is especially broken for some reason.
[quote]
David Kim is watching swarm host games he likes (Proleague?)
[quote]
There's a lot of other stuff, including a good bit about PvT, but just from this... If you're interested in engaging with, rather than insulting, David Kim and the balance team you might solve a problem they are working of that I think most of the community recognise as a problem. He pretty much asks for help at one point.
[quote]
Maybe, just maybe you can apply your gargantuan brain to think of a clever way, within the constraints of a patch, of fixing the problem.
It's unfixable you say? Then what the hell are you doing in this thread? Go agitate for deeper changes with LotV or support Starbow or make your own mod. Right now this thread is 50% mixed whining and simple toxicity making it barely readable. When we reach background levels of crazy then come back. We'll have missed you! Wow, someone with the correct attitude, who knew? I know, that post was a joy to read. I love the myth that being a negative asshole somehow will get people to change. It's like in dota when people yell at their teammates and I wonder "why would yelling at him make him better at the game?" Thank you Dapper_Cad, Whitewing, Plansix, and all others that keep a positive state of mind. This is real discussion. I honestly get rather tired of poo flinging sometimes. We do what we can. Sadly there are people who sill believe that do thy throw enough poo at Blizzard, it will somehow make them listen. And what will you achieve? You're only gonna produce toned down and watered-out criticism in times when drastic measures are needed. By your definition I am probably a poo flinger. However, I don't expect changes because people are whining. I expect changes because people are quitting the game. The whining is just a symptom. edit: I might pick up StarBow though. Those new spider mines look awesome. Well because I am so positive and a fan of MLG, they asked me to be a beta tester for their video player Xbox app. I also told them that they should focus on VODs, since that is a thing that twitch sucks at and I care about a lot. And when I complain about something or point out a problem, I normally get a response on twitter. Do I change the world? Not likely. Am I listened to more than someone posting how much MLG sucked and needs to get their act together? Always. You got to test a beta video player for Xbox. Oh the privilege, lol. Money makes companies change their minds. That is why I don't play or watch SC2 anymore. With all due respect, sir: by the following reasoning "Money makes companies change their minds. That is why I don't play or watch SC2 anymore." you should stop doing anything you usually do at all. Do you like sports? Movies? Music? Anything else? Food, clothing and houses? Drinking water and electricity? Because all of those are made by companies who change their minds when money is involved. That doesn't make them or their products bad. You are right. It is called a free market.
And they are free to ignore you if they think you are to difficult to please. Or you are lost in the din of millions of negative people on the Internet. It why no one reads YouTube comments.
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On February 07 2014 23:54 vjcamarena wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 23:43 one-one-one wrote:On February 07 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 23:16 one-one-one wrote:On February 07 2014 23:07 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 23:01 vjcamarena wrote:On February 07 2014 04:01 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 03:47 Whitewing wrote:On February 06 2014 20:19 Dapper_Cad wrote:On February 06 2014 18:36 Zealously wrote:
[quote]
Nah I'd just blanket ban everyone If this forum had a purge of assholes, would any of us be safe? Incidentally... Hey, assholes, this past month a key member of the design team has been attempting to engage with the SC2 community. Are we just going to pretty much ignore that? Yes, tribalism is fun. Who doesn't like to "I-just-discovered-potterying it up" by a roaring fire, explaining to each other why "they" are not only wrong but evil? But after the rosy glow of self righteous furvour fades? What did he say again? David Kim isn't the captain of the good ship SC2. Right now it's patch time and the kind of change he can get done is limited. We don't generally do unit design changes with patches (only exception here I can think of off the top of my head was when we added the Phoenix range upgrade back in Wings), Harassment options always seem overpowered at first. Implying that the balance team don't pay too much attention to initial community feedback on harassment changes. Harassment options such as the Oracle harass get weaker over time due to players learning how to defend better against them. European PvZ is especially broken for some reason. We don't like seeing games where two players both just sit back and mass up to their composition before engaging. This is why we're currently looking into the EU late game PvZ issue. David Kim is watching swarm host games he likes (Proleague?) Games where Swarm Hosts are used and there's constant action everywhere including Swarm Hosts aggressively moving around often after spawning locusts leading into each side's victory are really fun to watch. There's a lot of other stuff, including a good bit about PvT, but just from this... If you're interested in engaging with, rather than insulting, David Kim and the balance team you might solve a problem they are working of that I think most of the community recognise as a problem. He pretty much asks for help at one point. [In] late game PvZ situation where both players refuse to engage and the game drags on for a long time. We'd really love to come up with an awesome solution to this problem without hurting the good uses of Swarm Hosts. Maybe, just maybe you can apply your gargantuan brain to think of a clever way, within the constraints of a patch, of fixing the problem. It's unfixable you say? Then what the hell are you doing in this thread? Go agitate for deeper changes with LotV or support Starbow or make your own mod. Right now this thread is 50% mixed whining and simple toxicity making it barely readable. When we reach background levels of crazy then come back. We'll have missed you! Wow, someone with the correct attitude, who knew? I know, that post was a joy to read. I love the myth that being a negative asshole somehow will get people to change. It's like in dota when people yell at their teammates and I wonder "why would yelling at him make him better at the game?" Thank you Dapper_Cad, Whitewing, Plansix, and all others that keep a positive state of mind. This is real discussion. I honestly get rather tired of poo flinging sometimes. We do what we can. Sadly there are people who sill believe that do thy throw enough poo at Blizzard, it will somehow make them listen. And what will you achieve? You're only gonna produce toned down and watered-out criticism in times when drastic measures are needed. By your definition I am probably a poo flinger. However, I don't expect changes because people are whining. I expect changes because people are quitting the game. The whining is just a symptom. edit: I might pick up StarBow though. Those new spider mines look awesome. Well because I am so positive and a fan of MLG, they asked me to be a beta tester for their video player Xbox app. I also told them that they should focus on VODs, since that is a thing that twitch sucks at and I care about a lot. And when I complain about something or point out a problem, I normally get a response on twitter. Do I change the world? Not likely. Am I listened to more than someone posting how much MLG sucked and needs to get their act together? Always. You got to test a beta video player for Xbox. Oh the privilege, lol. Money makes companies change their minds. That is why I don't play or watch SC2 anymore. With all due respect, sir: by the following reasoning "Money makes companies change their minds. That is why I don't play or watch SC2 anymore." you should stop doing anything you usually do at all. Do you like sports? Movies? Music? Anything else? Food, clothing and houses? Drinking water and electricity? Because all of those are made by companies who change their minds when money is involved. That doesn't make them or their products bad.
I don't think you got what he meant. He's saying that not giving companies your money is what makes companies change their behaviour. For example, if Sony finds that people are not buying their laptops anymore (because Apple and Lenovo seem to attract more customers), they will change their laptops (or quit making laptops entirely...). In the end, a company is accountable to its shareholders who expect profits.
Of course, being a game developer, they are more likely to make a new game, than to change the way they approach an old one. I can imagine that being a whole lot more fun to do for everyone involved. Expansions allow them to be a bit more creative, but...
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I don't think this AMA is done in good faith, which is why I'm not surprised to see the overall negative reaction.
People should watch this and adopt a more realistic perspective on how companies are able to shape perception.
+ Show Spoiler +
Blizzard clearly isn't very good at it, but they do try. Clues are things such as the one hour limit that Blizzard sets on all appearances by David Kim ensuring that he is always able to control the discussion, another is the language that David Kim uses to cover all of his bases and say nothing in particular. Blizzard is not looking for an honest and open discussion, for them these opportunities to talk with the community are seen as PR events that have to be approached in a strategical manner.
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On February 08 2014 00:14 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 23:54 vjcamarena wrote:On February 07 2014 23:43 one-one-one wrote:On February 07 2014 23:31 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 23:16 one-one-one wrote:On February 07 2014 23:07 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 23:01 vjcamarena wrote:On February 07 2014 04:01 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 03:47 Whitewing wrote:On February 06 2014 20:19 Dapper_Cad wrote:
[quote]
If this forum had a purge of assholes, would any of us be safe?
Incidentally... Hey, assholes, this past month a key member of the design team has been attempting to engage with the SC2 community. Are we just going to pretty much ignore that? Yes, tribalism is fun. Who doesn't like to "I-just-discovered-potterying it up" by a roaring fire, explaining to each other why "they" are not only wrong but evil?
But after the rosy glow of self righteous furvour fades? What did he say again?
David Kim isn't the captain of the good ship SC2. Right now it's patch time and the kind of change he can get done is limited.
[quote]
Harassment options always seem overpowered at first. Implying that the balance team don't pay too much attention to initial community feedback on harassment changes.
[quote]
European PvZ is especially broken for some reason.
[quote]
David Kim is watching swarm host games he likes (Proleague?)
[quote]
There's a lot of other stuff, including a good bit about PvT, but just from this... If you're interested in engaging with, rather than insulting, David Kim and the balance team you might solve a problem they are working of that I think most of the community recognise as a problem. He pretty much asks for help at one point.
[quote]
Maybe, just maybe you can apply your gargantuan brain to think of a clever way, within the constraints of a patch, of fixing the problem.
It's unfixable you say? Then what the hell are you doing in this thread? Go agitate for deeper changes with LotV or support Starbow or make your own mod. Right now this thread is 50% mixed whining and simple toxicity making it barely readable. When we reach background levels of crazy then come back. We'll have missed you! Wow, someone with the correct attitude, who knew? I know, that post was a joy to read. I love the myth that being a negative asshole somehow will get people to change. It's like in dota when people yell at their teammates and I wonder "why would yelling at him make him better at the game?" Thank you Dapper_Cad, Whitewing, Plansix, and all others that keep a positive state of mind. This is real discussion. I honestly get rather tired of poo flinging sometimes. We do what we can. Sadly there are people who sill believe that do thy throw enough poo at Blizzard, it will somehow make them listen. And what will you achieve? You're only gonna produce toned down and watered-out criticism in times when drastic measures are needed. By your definition I am probably a poo flinger. However, I don't expect changes because people are whining. I expect changes because people are quitting the game. The whining is just a symptom. edit: I might pick up StarBow though. Those new spider mines look awesome. Well because I am so positive and a fan of MLG, they asked me to be a beta tester for their video player Xbox app. I also told them that they should focus on VODs, since that is a thing that twitch sucks at and I care about a lot. And when I complain about something or point out a problem, I normally get a response on twitter. Do I change the world? Not likely. Am I listened to more than someone posting how much MLG sucked and needs to get their act together? Always. You got to test a beta video player for Xbox. Oh the privilege, lol. Money makes companies change their minds. That is why I don't play or watch SC2 anymore. With all due respect, sir: by the following reasoning "Money makes companies change their minds. That is why I don't play or watch SC2 anymore." you should stop doing anything you usually do at all. Do you like sports? Movies? Music? Anything else? Food, clothing and houses? Drinking water and electricity? Because all of those are made by companies who change their minds when money is involved. That doesn't make them or their products bad. I don't think you got what he meant. He's saying that not giving companies your money is what makes companies change their behaviour. For example, if Sony finds that people are not buying their laptops anymore (because Apple and Lenovo seem to attract more customers), they will change their laptops (or quit making laptops entirely...). In the end, a company is accountable to its shareholders who expect profits. Of course, being a game developer, they are more likely to make a new game, than to change the way they approach an old one. I can imagine that being a whole lot more fun to do for everyone involved. Expansions allow them to be a bit more creative, but...
Oh, fair enough. As you say, I took it the wrong way. My mistake.
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On February 07 2014 23:32 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 23:24 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2014 23:15 nojem wrote:
It worked with Diablo 3 and Jay Wilson. Being constructive and nice hasn't for 5(?) years. But it wasn't the poop flinging that changed D3. It was a well thought out argument and constructive criticism from all sides. Blizzard will likely try improve SC2 in the next expansion, but you can't expect them to crowd source those changes. But demanding people be fired or pulled off the game never changed anything. Actually, that generally brings in a lot of change. When someone is incompetent in a position of authority, there's generally a period of constructive criticism. When that fails, people lose trust in that person. Almost no matter what they will do afterwards, winning back people's trust is not going to happen. And that's the case with David Kim - he has slipped one too many times, made unanimous decisions and given reasoning to justify these in ways which the majority of people consider unrepresentative of the facts. While I'm generally pretty damn positive about people, I can see why a lot of people think he should go now. I might be leaning towards seeing what he'll do in the coming weeks now that he has started pushing out balance patches, test maps and Q&A sessions, but it's not unreasonable for people to say "too little, too late."
Seconded. There's been extensive constructive criticism, but it's been ignored, which means its new blood time (there's a lot of other BS in there too, but intelligent people can filter arguments easily enough). What actually comes back as reasoning from DK often makes little to no sense, there's a disconnect between what he says they want to achieve and what the changes actually will. For example he often makes changes to strengthen units late game, but does this by removing upgrades. Which only buffs rushing that unit, but it keeps being done over and over. Banshee, Reaper, Oracle, Ghost... they only time they actually did that right was the phoenix range, a late game upgrade...
The issue stands that they balance for winrates when they need to be redesigning things that force the game one way. You can't balance or introduce fun with maps because of the way early game Protoss works and how the races need very different terran for a good engagement. But there's no budget redesign and DB likes all his big cool unit concepts that don't really fit in the SC universe... or an interesting to watch RTS. Hero units have no place here but they keep trying, MSC/Mothership and the double down Thor keeps remaking an appearance in his plans.
But there's clearly no budget for anything more than changing numbers. Sadly as there's plenty of options to monetise that haven't been taken, the mechanics are already there with the alternate models etc, paid name change was due since the beta and would take some coder a couple of days tops and I'm sure would have netted vastly more than hoping those desperate enough buy another copy. Instead they put more manhours into a pointless XP system that gives you all the saleable stuff for free if you play more than 30 games...
There you go, reasoned and no doubt being ignored. And lets be honest its a space without a serious competitor, the only other RTS I see is the planetary annihilation thing and it isn't really the same sort of RTS. I'm wishing someone turns out an RTS to fill the void, or at least provide the competition SC2 needs to force it to adapt (just the threat of Dominion Storm kicked SC1 into greatness starcraft-orcs-in-space-go-down-in-flames). Valve maybes?
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On February 08 2014 00:20 Grumbels wrote:
Clues are things such as the one hour limit that Blizzard sets on all appearances by David Kim ensuring that he is always able to control the discussion
Are you seriously surprised at this? Or think this is some big conspiracy? Oh please...I mean, look at this thread alone.
When the community whines as much as this one does then there is a huge incentive to want to keep it controlled and to the point. Otherwise its liable to devolve into the cesspit that threads regularly devolve into around here with people yelling "plz Blizzard fire David Kim because he's a baddie" and "omg Blizzard fail, ded gaem" and a bunch of people declaring that "Blizzard should just do x, y and z because I say so and everyone agrees with me".
He has a job to do. He can't spend his entire day dealing with people complaining ad infinitum about the same things that have been brought up time after time when he's already stated their internal team's views on the issue. Limiting it to an hour is an obvious step to keep things on track and concise. No more, no less.
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On February 07 2014 04:03 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 04:00 tokinho wrote:
Dear David Kim,
Please have a formal public vodded discussion with all top 30 rated Terrans on balance or please resign for someone else willing to do so.
Tok While I think this would be a great thing, it's never going to happen and it would be impossible to pull off any way. Getting a few Terrans alongside David Kim on some talk show, maybe, but thirty?
Part of the reason why balance is never addressed is Blizzard likes having very assymetric play. They view the terrans constantly all-inning vs toss as evidence of balance(I.E. maru/ty). While i agree with white that it wouldn't hurt to have a few toss and zerg to counter balance.
Anytime that someone says that something is imbalanced they say- its the map, or your not good enough to discuss balance. Blizzard does everything it can to disgrace the communities interest in the game, by "controlling" every aspect of the game. I hate the idea that blizzard only meets one-on-one to discuss any matter. Having a public discussion at least they could address the community rather than just leave it as its not really an issue, or saying that we had x discussion with pros, unciteable, and didn't feel like it was an issue. With a public disucssion with a large group of players, then I'd find it perfectly clear they feelings to the people who's livelihood depends on it, to say to them, contrary to what you think,our high level pvproleague and 3 Terran code S GSL have winrates/representation that are a great indicator of balance.
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I Just like the Fact that after all this time when Terran players have complained they said oh well Korean Terrans are doing good you just need to learn how to play like they do...... well Korean Terrans are doing aweful so what is it now? We just need to learn how NA Terrans play now? LOL! I honestly think protoss hasn't dominated in the NA scene because they havn't caught on to the way Korean Protoss Players are playing.....
I still would like to know how Nerfing tw to 100 energy has stopped the 100% safe Greedy play from protoss or has given terran an option to play greedy.....
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LOL the patch is already up? I didn't notice shit haha :D
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On February 08 2014 00:56 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 00:20 Grumbels wrote:
Clues are things such as the one hour limit that Blizzard sets on all appearances by David Kim ensuring that he is always able to control the discussion Are you seriously surprised at this? Or think this is some big conspiracy? Oh please...I mean, look at this thread alone. When the community whines as much as this one does then there is a huge incentive to want to keep it controlled and to the point. Otherwise its liable to devolve into the cesspit that threads regularly devolve into around here with people yelling "plz Blizzard fire David Kim because he's a baddie" and "omg Blizzard fail, ded gaem" and a bunch of people declaring that "Blizzard should just do x, y and z because I say so and everyone agrees with me". He has a job to do. He can't spend his entire day dealing with people complaining ad infinitum about the same things that have been brought up time after time when he's already stated their internal team's views on the issue. Limiting it to an hour is an obvious step to keep things on track and concise. No more, no less.
Haha. I'm sure David Kim could spare an additional hour of his time to honestly engage the community if he really wanted to*. Ghostcrawler had infinitely more community interaction back during the WoW days. I don't know why you have this bizarre accusation that I'm a conspiracy theorist, don't you think it's quite obvious that this limit on DK's appearances very conveniently always prevents him from thoroughly discussing anything?
* as evidenced by the fact that when he does appear on talkshows or AMA's he is very reluctant to say anything. He doesn't seem to have a real commitment to community interaction.
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It just feels like DK does not want to see the problems in the game anymore.
We have got the statistics, we all know how PvT looks in the tournaments and the win rates form Code A. We dont see Terrans getting sent out in PL at all (with very few exceptions). We have countless of PvP finals during the last tournaments.
I quote Dayshi from his twitter today:
M_Dayshi @M_Dayshi 51 min
6 ladder games, 6 protoss, 6 looses, 6 deffierent builds, 6 reasons to blame fucking TvP6 reasons to not enjoy the game and take a big break
Stardust replies:
Son Suk hee @StardustSC2 48 min
@M_Dayshi i agree pvt is broken  but how to fix.. will be super hard to fix
I think at this point everyone quite much agrees the match up is broken (or atleast strongly P favoured). And DKs fix to this is to make Ghosts spawn with a free upgrade even though I think most of the community can tell that this clearly is not the problem with the state of the game.
Personally I lose interest for the game more and more each day. I play Terran and my ladder experience just aint fun anymore. I do not enjoy TvP at all. I play the same build, every single gamle. Reaper expand. Sometimes I do reactor Reaper expand. Then I worry for 7 minutes for Oracles, DTs, Blink-All Ins, Fast 3 Nexuses, 8 Gates and a lot of more things. And then if I survive this I feel like I get to play Starcraft again. The thing is that the space between 0-15 minutes PvT is the same thing over and over again. And this has not to do with just balance - but it is so extremly one sided and boring. And truth be told, TvP is by far my most played match up in Master League.
What I want to hear from David Kim is that he sees that Terran has very few options in the start and adress this by trying to either limit the amount of options Protoss have or give terran more vital options that is not a coin flip build to lose vs DTs, Oracles, Blink or what not. Sure you can mix your builds up but when cutting the smallest corner you make yourself extremy vurnerable to a lot of various Protoss builds.
Instead what we get is a free Ghost Upgrade.
I seriously dont know if to laugh or cry. It adresses none of the issuses in the matchup. Sure it makes Terran a bit stronger. But the effect it will have is similar to drop some paint on the ocean. Sure there will be more of it there but it wont make any visible difference in the long run.
I sincerly hope Blizzard acts and makes this game more enjoyable for me as Terran player or I am afraid I will not play this game that I have loved since its release for many more weeks. I survived during the BL/Infestor era but this time I just dont have any strenght left to continue laddering. I dont find it fun anymore :/
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On February 08 2014 00:56 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 00:20 Grumbels wrote:
Clues are things such as the one hour limit that Blizzard sets on all appearances by David Kim ensuring that he is always able to control the discussion Are you seriously surprised at this? Or think this is some big conspiracy? Oh please...I mean, look at this thread alone. When the community whines as much as this one does then there is a huge incentive to want to keep it controlled and to the point. Otherwise its liable to devolve into the cesspit that threads regularly devolve into around here with people yelling "plz Blizzard fire David Kim because he's a baddie" and "omg Blizzard fail, ded gaem" and a bunch of people declaring that "Blizzard should just do x, y and z because I say so and everyone agrees with me". He has a job to do. He can't spend his entire day dealing with people complaining ad infinitum about the same things that have been brought up time after time when he's already stated their internal team's views on the issue. Limiting it to an hour is an obvious step to keep things on track and concise. No more, no less. This.
Blizzard designers hear the arguments, they don't agree, they make the game. The end.
On February 08 2014 01:30 Grumbels wrote:
Haha. I'm sure David Kim could spare an additional hour of his time to honestly engage the community if he really wanted to*. Ghostcrawler had infinitely more community interaction back during the WoW days. I don't know why you have this bizarre accusation that I'm a conspiracy theorist, don't you think it's quite obvious that this limit on DK's appearances very conveniently always prevents him from thoroughly discussing anything? Blizzard has heard the people who want to change warp gate, they explained why they won't, and repeating the same arguments over and over again is not discussion, it's wasting everyone's time.
If you don't agree with Blizzard, well, that sucks. But do you really think David Kim is going to say something like "I wasn't convinced by your arguments when I studied them the first 50 times, but that 51st repetition totally changed my mind"?
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On February 08 2014 01:34 Glorfindel! wrote:Stardust replies: Son Suk hee @StardustSC2 48 min@M_Dayshi i agree pvt is broken but how to fix.. will be super hard to fix
Honestly it seems rather trivial to balance TvP... Without even touching much to Photon Overcharge, there's a lot to do. Just some examples of what they could do:
Protoss
General
Warp-in time increased to 8 seconds, up from 5.
Mothership Core
Hit points decreased to 60/105, down from 60/135.
Sight range decreased to 9, down from 14.
Photon Overcharge casting range decreased to 7, down from 10.
Oracle
Movement speed decreased to 3.5, down from 4.
Storm
Search time increased to 140 seconds, up from 110.
Tempest
Damage to Massive air targets decreased to 50 (+5), down from 80 (+5).
Terran
Stim
Search time decreased to 140 seconds, down from 170.
Ghost
Cost decreased to 175/100, down from 200/100.
Reaper
Sight range increased to 10, up from 9.
Ghost Academy
Moebius Reactor reintroduced.
Tactical Nukes now deal 750 damage, up from 500, in the center of the radius.
And if you want some mech as a bonus:
Tanks
Now deal +15 damage to Massive targets while in Siege Mode.
Immortal
Hardened shield has been reworked. It still reduces damage from 10-20 to 10, but any attack dealing more than 20 damage is halved instead of reduced to 10.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 08 2014 02:03 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 01:34 Glorfindel! wrote:Stardust replies: Son Suk hee @StardustSC2 48 min@M_Dayshi i agree pvt is broken but how to fix.. will be super hard to fix Honestly it seems rather trivial to balance TvP... Without even touching much to Photon Overcharge, there's a lot to do. Just some examples of what they could do: Protoss General Warp-in time increased to 8 seconds, up from 5. Mothership Core Hit points decreased to 60/105, down from 60/135. Sight range decreased to 9, down from 14. Photon Overcharge casting range decreased to 7, down from 10. Oracle Movement speed decreased to 3.5, down from 4. Storm Search time increased to 140 seconds, up from 110. Tempest Damage to Massive air targets decreased to 50 (+5), down from 80 (+5). Terran Stim Search time decreased to 140 seconds, down from 170. Ghost Cost decreased to 175/100, down from 200/100. Reaper Sight range increased to 10, up from 9. Ghost Academy Moebius Reactor reintroduced. Tactical Nukes now deal 750 damage, up from 500, in the center of the radius. And if you want some mech as a bonus: Tanks Now deal +15 damage to Massive targets while in Siege Mode. Immortal Hardened shield has been reworked. It still reduces damage from 10-20 to 10, but any attack dealing more than 20 damage is halved instead of reduced to 10.
LMFAO, yes, it's so trivial it simply requires a whole bunch of nerfs to protoss and a whole bunch of buffs to terran, all different!
The impact of all the changes you suggest would result in a massive landslide victory for terrans from now until the end of time. It's a good thing you aren't in charge.
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On February 08 2014 02:14 Whitewing wrote:
LMFAO, yes, it's so trivial it simply requires a whole bunch of nerfs to protoss and a whole bunch of buffs to terran, all different!
The impact of all the changes you suggest would result in a massive landslide victory for terrans from now until the end of time.
Not at all; actually I'm fairly sure the match-up would still favor Protoss even after all of this. It's obvious you don't realize how heavily favored PvT currently is for Protoss. I guess you're the kind of person who thinks Ghosts coming with 75 energy fixes the match-up or something, so no wonder you're afraid of real and necessary changes.
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The current situation with toss isn't any different from late WoL zerg. They are the foreigner success race, the only race with which foreigner can take games of / win against top koreans. Blizzard will ALWAYS do baby steps when it comes to nerfing such race.
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Completely dodged the issue on force field and warpgate, can't say I'm surprised.
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On February 08 2014 02:24 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 02:14 Whitewing wrote:
LMFAO, yes, it's so trivial it simply requires a whole bunch of nerfs to protoss and a whole bunch of buffs to terran, all different!
The impact of all the changes you suggest would result in a massive landslide victory for terrans from now until the end of time. Not at all; actually I'm fairly sure the match-up would still favor Protoss even after all of this. It's obvious you don't realize how heavily favored PvT currently is for Protoss. I guess you're the kind of person who thinks Ghosts coming with 75 energy fixes the match-up or something, so no wonder you're afraid of real and necessary changes.
We must be careful, the bias is strong in this one.
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On February 08 2014 02:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 02:24 TheDwf wrote:On February 08 2014 02:14 Whitewing wrote:
LMFAO, yes, it's so trivial it simply requires a whole bunch of nerfs to protoss and a whole bunch of buffs to terran, all different!
The impact of all the changes you suggest would result in a massive landslide victory for terrans from now until the end of time. Not at all; actually I'm fairly sure the match-up would still favor Protoss even after all of this. It's obvious you don't realize how heavily favored PvT currently is for Protoss. I guess you're the kind of person who thinks Ghosts coming with 75 energy fixes the match-up or something, so no wonder you're afraid of real and necessary changes. We must be careful, the bias is strong in this one.
You realize that you are talking to a GM terran, right?
Discuss about his proposed changes instead of just dismissing them outright.
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EPT
