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United States7483 Posts
On February 07 2014 16:30 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 15:27 vesicular wrote:On February 07 2014 12:57 Emuking wrote:
"For example, why do Zerglings or roaches try to bait out Force Fields if micro against them is not possible?"
They try to bait them out because if they land you can't micro against them. I think Blizzard thinks "baiting" falls under the category of micro. That's a mind game, not micro. Am I wrong here? I'm not sure it matters. People bait out Stim for similar reasons. The point he was trying to make is that there are strategies to make FF interesting on both sides. As a strategy game, that's what you want. The question in my mind however is if FF's are a fun mechanic or not. I think his statement doesn't make any sense. How can you micro against something that is not even on the map yet? What do you do once it is? Baiting stims or storms doesn't prevent anyone from doing anything, baiting forcefields on the other hand is not even about the FFs themselves anymore but buying time, catching reinforcements, killing pylons/probe making pylons. It's pretty much like siege tanks in that regard where the opponent tries to make you siege up. If they are sieged you'd never attack. IIRC it was Rain vs Solar yesterday on Yeonsu where Solar successfully baited FFs out of Rain so that his 4 spines would finish before Rain arrives. You don't need FFs to have this kind of player interaction. It appears to me that Blizzard doesn't consider very specific situations where their problematic units/abilities truly shine as is apparent in DKs answer to if current SH usage is intended.
You bait forcefields so the attack will have less energy when it arrives. Same goes for baiting storms: so there will be fewer storms, or stim, so there will be less medivac energy or less unit health.
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On February 07 2014 16:30 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 15:27 vesicular wrote:On February 07 2014 12:57 Emuking wrote:
"For example, why do Zerglings or roaches try to bait out Force Fields if micro against them is not possible?"
They try to bait them out because if they land you can't micro against them. I think Blizzard thinks "baiting" falls under the category of micro. That's a mind game, not micro. Am I wrong here? I'm not sure it matters. People bait out Stim for similar reasons. The point he was trying to make is that there are strategies to make FF interesting on both sides. As a strategy game, that's what you want. The question in my mind however is if FF's are a fun mechanic or not. I think his statement doesn't make any sense. How can you micro against something that is not even on the map yet? What do you do once it is? Baiting stims or storms doesn't prevent anyone from doing anything, baiting forcefields on the other hand is not even about the FFs themselves anymore but buying time, catching reinforcements, killing pylons/probe making pylons. It's pretty much like siege tanks in that regard where the opponent tries to make you siege up. If they are sieged you'd never attack. IIRC it was Rain vs Solar yesterday on Yeonsu where Solar successfully baited FFs out of Rain so that his 4 spines would finish before Rain arrives. You don't need FFs to have this kind of player interaction. It appears to me that Blizzard doesn't consider very specific situations where their problematic units/abilities truly shine as is apparent in DKs answer to if current SH usage is intended.
Of course you need FFs for that. If that was a Zerg or Terran he would just march forward because he wouldn't have to do Forcefielmicro which hinders him from advancing.
Also forcefield baiting is 90% about the FFs. You want to bait them out, so that when you engage he has much less of them. You can't beat a good Protoss player that can forcefield your army off 2-3times during a combat, but you can very well overwhelm one with two attacks that only has one last row of forcefields left.
And
How can you micro against something that is not even on the map yet? What do you do once it is?
is just pidgeonholing it. Then call it "micro against the sentry" which is on the map.
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I believe that forcefields became a core part of Protoss race and that somehow limits how maps can be made, deteriorating different playstyles that could potentially inject more variety to the game, but that doesn't necessarily mean they should be altered at this stage, sometimes its frustrating to let Protoss get too close to my bases and watch my units become worthless by a couple of well placed forcefields, but instead of getting mad I try to (as DK said) bait them in the middle of the map and then position my army to engage, it might not solve all the problems but it adds micro (whether it might 'feel fun' or not) and I'm fine with that. Burrowed roaches are very useable and I like the concept of dealing with forcefields this way. New units could in a way circumvent the position and that forcefield is right now in innovative ways.
Warpgate mechanic is another hot topic that I think is awesome, it really adds a different feel to Protoss as a race, on the other hand, I really liked what Starbow did with that mechanic, adding a unit that can only be produced out of the gateway feels right, I'd love for Protoss players to change between Warpgate and Gateway depending on their builds for LOTV.
Anyway, I think it was expected for him to do this somewhat fluffy answers but in reality there's not going to be any drastic changes until LOTV comes out, but it's a good time to address what could be added to the game to make it "stable" now and for the next expansion.
There are many negative people, but I believe that LOTV will be exciting and major problems will be dealt with, have a little faith people. In the end, if the game turns out to be awesome, it'll be your gain from a player and spectator view.
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His answer concerning deathballs says all i needed to read to not to want to read more. It clearly shows they don't know how to do better than this. Until these people that are in charge of SC2 balance and mechanics are fired, SC2 is a lost cause. I'm out.
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constant action through bore(swarm)hosts... well i never laughed so hard xD
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On February 07 2014 17:43 KOtical wrote:
constant action through bore(swarm)hosts... well i never laughed so hard xD
Watch Flash vs DRG or Soulkey vs INnoVation and cry for being so ignorant.
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On February 07 2014 17:52 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 17:43 KOtical wrote:
constant action through bore(swarm)hosts... well i never laughed so hard xD
Watch Flash vs DRG or Soulkey vs INnoVation and cry for being so ignorant.
Right now that is very much the exception though. You can find more fun games from the BL/Infestor era then you can now with SH.
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On February 07 2014 18:08 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 17:52 Big J wrote:On February 07 2014 17:43 KOtical wrote:
constant action through bore(swarm)hosts... well i never laughed so hard xD
Watch Flash vs DRG or Soulkey vs INnoVation and cry for being so ignorant. Right now that is very much the exception though. You can find more fun games from the BL/Infestor era then you can now with SH.
they should at least make locusts and their attack animation look cooler...locusts just look so dull
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On February 07 2014 16:49 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 16:30 Ravomat wrote:On February 07 2014 15:27 vesicular wrote:On February 07 2014 12:57 Emuking wrote:
"For example, why do Zerglings or roaches try to bait out Force Fields if micro against them is not possible?"
They try to bait them out because if they land you can't micro against them. I think Blizzard thinks "baiting" falls under the category of micro. That's a mind game, not micro. Am I wrong here? I'm not sure it matters. People bait out Stim for similar reasons. The point he was trying to make is that there are strategies to make FF interesting on both sides. As a strategy game, that's what you want. The question in my mind however is if FF's are a fun mechanic or not. I think his statement doesn't make any sense. How can you micro against something that is not even on the map yet? What do you do once it is? Baiting stims or storms doesn't prevent anyone from doing anything, baiting forcefields on the other hand is not even about the FFs themselves anymore but buying time, catching reinforcements, killing pylons/probe making pylons. It's pretty much like siege tanks in that regard where the opponent tries to make you siege up. If they are sieged you'd never attack. IIRC it was Rain vs Solar yesterday on Yeonsu where Solar successfully baited FFs out of Rain so that his 4 spines would finish before Rain arrives. You don't need FFs to have this kind of player interaction. It appears to me that Blizzard doesn't consider very specific situations where their problematic units/abilities truly shine as is apparent in DKs answer to if current SH usage is intended. Of course you need FFs for that. If that was a Zerg or Terran he would just march forward because he wouldn't have to do Forcefielmicro which hinders him from advancing. Also forcefield baiting is 90% about the FFs. You want to bait them out, so that when you engage he has much less of them. You can't beat a good Protoss player that can forcefield your army off 2-3times during a combat, but you can very well overwhelm one with two attacks that only has one last row of forcefields left.
Of course you want to bait FFs whenever possible but I just think that is a bonus (and mistake from P) when Protoss marches overly aggressive across the map. You also want more time and I think this is much more important than baiting FFs. With more time you can get more units out/spines up so that you can force Protoss into an unfavorable position, possibly surround him and make him spend even more sentry energy than a little group of lings could.
I compared FF baiting with forcing siege tanks to siege up. You didn't address that at all.
When Terran is using tanks they have the exact same problem as when a group of sentries is moving across the map. The opponent will try to slow him. The only difference is sentries are not on a timer where their effectiveness drops to almost 0.
Show nested quote +How can you micro against something that is not even on the map yet? What do you do once it is? is just pidgeonholing it. Then call it "micro against the sentry" which is on the map.
That is not correct. FFs are separate objects which make terrain temporarily impassable. How do you micro on impassable terrain? Would you call it micro if I built a gateway there?
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On February 07 2014 18:20 j00pdaw00p wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 18:08 Sapphire.lux wrote:On February 07 2014 17:52 Big J wrote:On February 07 2014 17:43 KOtical wrote:
constant action through bore(swarm)hosts... well i never laughed so hard xD
Watch Flash vs DRG or Soulkey vs INnoVation and cry for being so ignorant. Right now that is very much the exception though. You can find more fun games from the BL/Infestor era then you can now with SH. they should at least make locusts and their attack animation look cooler...locusts just look so dull
I don't know. My problem with them is that battles between Locusts and P/T just aren't satisfying to watch at all, because they are just free units that i know Zerg couldn't care less about. At least ITerrans cost energy. The only time this battles can feel satisfying is when P/T can either kill the SH, and this should never really happen, or when you can advance enough to kill a Zerg base/ secure your own base or at least put the Zerg under heavy pressure.
In most of the games i've seen though Terran advances so slow that Zerg can just bank all the resources in the World while Terran needs to add lots of Ravens, leading to those terrible slow games.
No matter how much action there is, free units just don't make the battles fun for me.
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On February 07 2014 18:08 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 17:52 Big J wrote:On February 07 2014 17:43 KOtical wrote:
constant action through bore(swarm)hosts... well i never laughed so hard xD
Watch Flash vs DRG or Soulkey vs INnoVation and cry for being so ignorant. Right now that is very much the exception though. You can find more fun games from the BL/Infestor era then you can now with SH.
Good, then you can surely make a list of games in which SH vs Mech led to superboring turtle lay recently.
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On February 07 2014 18:59 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 18:08 Sapphire.lux wrote:On February 07 2014 17:52 Big J wrote:On February 07 2014 17:43 KOtical wrote:
constant action through bore(swarm)hosts... well i never laughed so hard xD
Watch Flash vs DRG or Soulkey vs INnoVation and cry for being so ignorant. Right now that is very much the exception though. You can find more fun games from the BL/Infestor era then you can now with SH. Good, then you can surely make a list of games in which SH vs Mech led to superboring turtle lay recently.
I could but i won't, because if you fallowed HOTS at all then you already know lots of games.
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I'd like to see small changes to locust that might help in ZvP... Maybe (and I'm usually against speed changes) they could change the on/off creep speed so it's easier for colossus based armies to kite (off creep). Another thought would be to change the attack animation so they have to actually stop/set up to shoot instead of the instant shot (think hellion vs marine).
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On February 07 2014 17:43 KOtical wrote:
constant action through bore(swarm)hosts... well i never laughed so hard xD
Agreed, action only occurs of both sides have something to lose and to win. With Locusts engaging a sieged tank line for five minutes, only the terran has something to lose and only the zerg has something to win. And if the terran knows what he is doing, nobody will be losing or winning anything...
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They really need to switch kim out of sc2. Enough damage has been done imo. Bring in a fresh face and salvage what's left with the waning popularity of this game.
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On February 07 2014 19:08 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 18:59 Big J wrote:On February 07 2014 18:08 Sapphire.lux wrote:On February 07 2014 17:52 Big J wrote:On February 07 2014 17:43 KOtical wrote:
constant action through bore(swarm)hosts... well i never laughed so hard xD
Watch Flash vs DRG or Soulkey vs INnoVation and cry for being so ignorant. Right now that is very much the exception though. You can find more fun games from the BL/Infestor era then you can now with SH. Good, then you can surely make a list of games in which SH vs Mech led to superboring turtle lay recently. I could but i won't, because if you fallowed HOTS at all then you already know lots of games.
Lately, all high level Korean SH vs Mech have been amazing. Best games in 2014.
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WE will have 15 protoss at the last 16 in code S ^^. ''We are content with the current balacne''
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On February 07 2014 21:15 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
They really need to switch kim out of sc2. Enough damage has been done imo. Bring in a fresh face and salvage what's left with the waning popularity of this game.
It's really not his fault that the design of the game makes it so difficult to balance. He's probably one of the more qualified people available, and killing his livelihood to take a chance with someone else isn't exactly fair to him considering he hasn't done anything overtly wrong.
Blizzard needs to seriously take a look at the flaws in SC2, not necessarily from the heartless, statistical approach of number-balancing, but the approach to up the excitement of the game (without using terrible terrible damage) and spread out the playing field by some means other than making units that are physically bigger than others...
Capitol ships, for example, are large but don't spread out the field, because they stack. Colossi are big, but imagine if they didn't stand over the army. Same thing with broods and BCs. Why do these units feel more boring? Because they don't take much/any skill to use and their stacking tends to make the damage output in a concentrated area VERY high. It's like a fat curtain gets spread over the battle and the loser's army dies leaving the viewers wondering wtf happened. Spreading out the army footprints will easily alleviate some of the quickness of battles, but Blizzard is so very proud of the way armies move like a blob.
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you repeated a few questions OP.
I really hope they do something about swarmhosts its just terrible to watch
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On February 07 2014 22:11 dUTtrOACh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 21:15 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
They really need to switch kim out of sc2. Enough damage has been done imo. Bring in a fresh face and salvage what's left with the waning popularity of this game. It's really not his fault that the design of the game makes it so difficult to balance. He's probably one of the more qualified people available, and killing his livelihood to take a chance with someone else isn't exactly fair to him considering he hasn't done anything overtly wrong. Blizzard needs to seriously take a look at the flaws in SC2, not necessarily from the heartless, statistical approach of number-balancing, but the approach to up the excitement of the game (without using terrible terrible damage) and spread out the playing field by some means other than making units that are physically bigger than others... Capitol ships, for example, are large but don't spread out the field, because they stack. Colossi are big, but imagine if they didn't stand over the army. Same thing with broods and BCs. Why do these units feel more boring? Because they don't take much/any skill to use and their stacking tends to make the damage output in a concentrated area VERY high. It's like a fat curtain gets spread over the battle and the loser's army dies leaving the viewers wondering wtf happened. Spreading out the army footprints will easily alleviate some of the quickness of battles, but Blizzard is so very proud of the way armies move like a blob.
He is probably not one of the more qualified people available given his record and he IS still responsible for all the poor decisions he took.
If he had troubles with the design of the game he could have done something about that too.
I agree with the parts about statistics and number balances.
I have a (troll) question for David Kim.
Warning! Don't click this spoiler if you are a sensitive person.
Question:
+ Show Spoiler +Are you happy with your efforts "balancing" SC2 turning it from GomTvT into Gom eXPvPvPvPvPv....vP? + Show Spoiler +You just have to click the spoilers, don't you? :-)
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EPT
