On January 20 2014 07:34 Qwyn wrote: Hmmm...at this point after discussing with Blade it seems like Terran's free instant SCV is really ridiculous. I mean sure you have to pay 50 minerals but you build it instantly O_O.
What? terran should always be behind?
More like terran shouldn't have chronoboost + scan + free scv's. Not having one of those doesn't make terran behind lol, especially with how production is working (zerg is no longer ahead in workers like it is in normal sc2 from every game I have seen). Kind of silly imo they get all that they literally get protoss chrono boost, free scv's and then free scans. Seems a little too good for terran where as zerg gets a shitty version of inject (literally don't think it makes much of a difference), they can speed up building production and creep is only used as healing I think?
Protoss has chronoboost and recall (and don't even need a unit to recall 5 units, it's only 5 but still better then nothing!).
Imo zerg got the shaft when it came to abilities and terran got the gold mine.
Not sure if overpowered or not just seems weird to me that terran has all this great stuff on orbitals, but until it looks like it's overpowered not going to complain or talk about it (other then this post).
On January 20 2014 07:31 Grumbels wrote: I have to say that I feel a bit cold whenever I hear a progamer talk about perceived weaknesses in Starbow. It seems very easy to dismiss any game for apparent flaws and not give it the chance that it perhaps deserves. Fortunately I can find solace in thinking of old WoL beta gameplay, when the level of play was so beyond awful that it is neither painful nor hilarious, it transcends those qualities because it looks like a completely different game and appears to have nothing in common with high level play these days. The Starbow playerbase has a choice: lose to a dragoon timing and complain that PvT is imbalanced, or accept that you don't know anything and are not in a position to lecture others. And maybe if we were to cease to demand Starbow to be a perfect e-sports game right off the bat it would be easier to see it as a new game to have fun with.
(mind you that there were many balance complaints during the WoL beta that seem ridiculous in retrospect)
I'm so sick of Day9's frisbee vs baseball analogy. Baseballs offer you control and are fun to use (source: I made it to the regional team as a pitcher in my youth). Day9 is not some god of design just because he used an analogy to describe micro potential, it's all obvious enough.
Yeah, I agree. That analogy is over rated and over used. I play cricket, and there is plenty you can do with a cricket ball from swing and seam to spin (not even taking into account the conditions or the pitch). Frisbee is boring.
On January 20 2014 07:34 Qwyn wrote: Banelings seem to do really, really low damage against buildings. Seemed like Byleth's baneling bust was a sure win but all the banelings (like 8) didn't do jack against the bunker...
Hmmm...at this point after discussing with Blade it seems like Terran's free instant SCV is really ridiculous. I mean sure you have to pay 50 minerals but you build it instantly O_O.
Fun stuff, sad that Blade lost in a ZvZ, was really rooting for him.
What happened to Losira?
Losira was beaten.
And thank god banelings are weak against structures. I'm so sick of seeing all-in cheesy nonsense and baneling busts - it's way too coin-flippy. One of Starbow's great strengths is that players are rewarded for playing strong macro games rather than all-ins.
On January 20 2014 07:34 Qwyn wrote: Hmmm...at this point after discussing with Blade it seems like Terran's free instant SCV is really ridiculous. I mean sure you have to pay 50 minerals but you build it instantly O_O.
What? terran should always be behind?
More terran shouldn't have chronoboost + scan + free scv's. Kind of silly imo they get all that they literally get protoss chrono boost, free scv's and then free scans. Seems a little too good for terran where as zerg gets a shitty version of inject (literally don't think it makes much of a difference), they can speed up building production and creep is only used as healing I think?
Protoss has chronoboost and recall (and don't even need a unit to recall 5 units, it's only 5 but still better then nothing!).
Imo zerg got the shaft when it came to abilities and terran got the gold mine.
The scv ability has a long cooldown so it's just as fair as chronoboost. If they are used equally I believe each race will produce the same amount of workers. Overall I think the macro abilities all fit each race's style quite nicely. They all give the option of increased army production or economy, but Terran gets a scouting advantage, Protoss gets an upgrade advantage, and Zerg gets a tech advantage.
On January 20 2014 09:04 Jetaap wrote: Irradiate seems really ridiculous right now, i really think it needs to be tweaked (damage should not be stakcing at the very least)
I'm not so sure. We haven't seen top level micro yet. I've heard the opposite actually. Higher level players complain that irradiate is really easy to micro against by pro-players.
Then again, I think it might be OP for casuals who can't micro their air units out of an irradiate cloud.
Irradiate is ok : a) do not allow massing muta b) big investment and easily can be destroyed by scourge c) i agree, non of the spells should be allowed to stack.
On January 20 2014 07:34 Qwyn wrote: Hmmm...at this point after discussing with Blade it seems like Terran's free instant SCV is really ridiculous. I mean sure you have to pay 50 minerals but you build it instantly O_O.
What? terran should always be behind?
Not behind - even! This allows for them to get super far ahead in worker count -_-.
On January 20 2014 05:07 HaRuHi wrote: The Roach does not show up in the hotkey menu when you make custom hotkeys for starbow :<
You have to choose language english/US in SC2 settings, but be careful, you will have to redownload the game I think.
That did not fix it for me (Options > Language, then both to English/US), it indeed downloads +-3GB again lol. I also don't see the Roach in the Hotkey settings when on a Starbow map. Everything else seems to be there.
Yeah, and my screenshot was from english/US in first place. :d Strange issue.
I think it's less a problem with irradiate and more a problem with mutas naturally clumping. In BW you would go muta hydra against mech, but if you do that in Starbow you get smashed since 2-4 irradiates can kill a huge amount of mutas, and since you cant pre-emptively spread them out to engage, it creates scenarios where Terran doesn't need to make many anti muta defences if they are meching.
I think stacking damage and auto casting are fine in the mu, or at least I haven't seen any evidence playing decently high level tvz and zvt that there are any problems that can't be overcome. The only thing that bothers me is the natural clumping of the muta. I assume it's there to make muta micro easier? Is there a trick to spreading them out and attacking that I'm not seeing?
I also don't think there is a huge problem with the macro mechanics - I think spawn larvae being so quick to expire is pretty good for the macro of the game and is in keeping with chrono boost and terrans boost. The utility of queens to speed up structures is very nice (you can speed up spines to stop timing attacks, but not invest anything if you don't need to, or speed up spire, or speed up defilers) and hasn't been explored enough yet. Spawn Larvae adds 65% boost to larvae spawning for 150 minerals. That's a better cost for cost ratio than building another hatchery, and you get the extra benefit from speeding up structures and defending.
Zerg have also gained banelings and improved hydras. This gives them the ability to drone more than they would normally. I think it's possible that they are as strong or stronger than in bw.
On January 20 2014 09:21 Piy wrote: I think it's less a problem with irradiate and more a problem with mutas naturally clumping. In BW you would go muta hydra against mech, but if you do that in Starbow you get smashed since 2-4 irradiates can kill a huge amount of mutas, and since you cant pre-emptively spread them out to engage, it creates scenarios where Terran doesn't need to make many anti muta defences if they are meching.
I think stacking damage and auto casting are fine in the mu, or at least I haven't seen any evidence playing decently high level tvz and zvt that there are any problems that can't be overcome. The only thing that bothers me is the natural clumping of the muta. I assume it's there to make muta micro easier? Is there a trick to spreading them out and attacking that I'm not seeing?
I also don't think there is a huge problem with the macro mechanics - I think spawn larvae being so quick to expire is pretty good for the macro of the game and is in keeping with chrono boost and terrans boost. The utility of queens to speed up structures is very nice (you can speed up spines to stop timing attacks, but not invest anything if you don't need to, or speed up spire, or speed up defilers) and hasn't been explored enough yet. Spawn Larvae adds 65% boost to larvae spawning for 150 minerals. That's a better cost for cost ratio than building another hatchery, and you get the extra benefit from speeding up structures and defending.
Zerg have also gained banelings and improved hydras. This gives them the ability to drone more than they would normally. I think it's possible that they are as strong or stronger than in bw.
65% boost vs Terran boost on reactor baracks(200%) is kinda not doing it for me, since you can only have 1 queen per hatch, you also always have to make trade offs and don`t get that 65% all the time (plant creep, speed up tech, heal), also you don't need the production all the time, since you can't larva pool it is almost always better to build more hatches, because having 3 baracks with reactors is kinda the same like pooling larva. Also Call down SCV adds 100% to CC`s SCV production aswell I think?
Then banelings are just slow + with the pathing marines god damn perfectly autosplit. If not you can focus fire them easily.
Edit: I guess the real problem is that 65% faster production is just nothing Zergs are happy about because we usually do not benefit from trickeling in units, just not how the Race works. We make cut throat decisions: drones or army, with 65% more production everything just feels weird.
On January 20 2014 08:05 zlefin wrote: hmm, while I'll give it a good try when 2.1 comes out; the more I read, the more it seems like starbow goes against my preferred design philosophies; too much busywork rather than strategy work. I prefer strategy and tactics over apm.
SB has yes more APM, Multitasking required ALONG with strategy, you really need to execute your engagements well and really well in order to win battle. That's what defines Starcraft. (strategy+mechanics+execution) .
Put is as this, Hardowrking players who practices the game a lot = higher reward / higher % to win. Rather than be it a strategy 'only' game, And even a mediocre player can copy and memorize builds in no time and execute it ease and pray that he has a better build than his opponent. Thats what happening in sc2 now.
Build Order win is no fun to play or watch at all. But since its your own preference, can't do nothing a about it.
I can't undersatnd Zerg complaints that they should have like 1 hatch+1 queen per base and keep up with any terran or toss production. In BW 5 hatch production from 3 bases was quite standart iirc. Also I believe it's to early to speak of imbalances in production, considering Starbow beeing unexplored and overall level of players not being too high,
There is another point, that strong SCV production doesn't favour terran if he can't take more than three bases, and it was clearly seen on the Razer tournament today, where Beastyqt's 60+ SCVs were pretty much dead supply on 3 bases, and zerg with even less amount of workers (40-45) had near the same income, because he had map control with lings and mutas, so he could afford more bases. And it is quite hard for Terran to take a 4th in Starbow.
On January 20 2014 09:21 Piy wrote: I think it's less a problem with irradiate and more a problem with mutas naturally clumping. In BW you would go muta hydra against mech, but if you do that in Starbow you get smashed since 2-4 irradiates can kill a huge amount of mutas, and since you cant pre-emptively spread them out to engage, it creates scenarios where Terran doesn't need to make many anti muta defences if they are meching.
I think stacking damage and auto casting are fine in the mu, or at least I haven't seen any evidence playing decently high level tvz and zvt that there are any problems that can't be overcome. The only thing that bothers me is the natural clumping of the muta. I assume it's there to make muta micro easier? Is there a trick to spreading them out and attacking that I'm not seeing?
I also don't think there is a huge problem with the macro mechanics - I think spawn larvae being so quick to expire is pretty good for the macro of the game and is in keeping with chrono boost and terrans boost. The utility of queens to speed up structures is very nice (you can speed up spines to stop timing attacks, but not invest anything if you don't need to, or speed up spire, or speed up defilers) and hasn't been explored enough yet. Spawn Larvae adds 65% boost to larvae spawning for 150 minerals. That's a better cost for cost ratio than building another hatchery, and you get the extra benefit from speeding up structures and defending.
Zerg have also gained banelings and improved hydras. This gives them the ability to drone more than they would normally. I think it's possible that they are as strong or stronger than in bw.
65% boost vs Terran boost on reactor baracks(200%) is kinda not doing it for me, since you can only have 1 queen per hatch, you also always have to make trade offs and don`t get that 65% all the time (plant creep, speed up tech, heal), also you don't need the production all the time, since you can't larva pool it is almost always better to build more hatches, because having 3 baracks with reactors is kinda the same like pooling larva. Also Call down SCV adds 100% to CC`s SCV production aswell I think?
Then banelings are just slow + with the pathing marines god damn perfectly autosplit. If not you can focus fire them easily.
Edit: I guess the real problem is that 65% faster production is just nothing Zergs are happy about because we usually do not benefit from trickeling in units, just not how the Race works. We make cut throat decisions: drones or army, with 65% more production everything just feels weird.
Please note that workers suffer a lot more from oversaturation in starbow, you're already not mining optimal from the second scv per patch. Zerg has much stronger units than in sc2 and has the tools to expand aggressively. It's better to have 3 bases with 12 drones on each and being aggressive vs terran than sticking to 2 bases and getting 20+ drones per base. It is probably way too soon to talk about imbalances.
The one thing about Starbow which may be due to the fact that it has its root in Brood War is that the new units, the ones that were introduced in SC2, don't feel like they have an identity yet. Some units don't feel like they are needed or are very much less useful. This also may be due to the fact that people aren't really experimenting with them.
I think this issue mostly affects Terran and Protoss. The marauder, viking, and stalker feel the most lost. I'm not entirely sure when you would want to use them. I mean the marauder obviously for tanking but between SB's marauder and SC2's marauder, it feels like a huge nerf.
So to anyone playing SB or to the developers, when would you want to use these units?
On January 20 2014 10:17 superpanda27 wrote: The one thing about Starbow which may be due to the fact that it has its root in Brood War is that the new units, the ones that were introduced in SC2, don't feel like they have an identity yet. Some units don't feel like they are needed or are very much less useful. This also may be due to the fact that people aren't really experimenting with them.
I think this issue mostly affects Terran and Protoss. The marauder, viking, and stalker feel the most lost. I'm not entirely sure when you would want to use them. I mean the marauder obviously for tanking but between SB's marauder and SC2's marauder, it feels like a huge nerf.
So to anyone playing SB or to the developers, when would you want to use these units?
-Stalkers are super cheap and come with blink for free I believe. They can also be warped in, unlike Dragoons. They are more late game though, and not many games are going into late game with the skill disparity and the game just launching.
-Marauders are great vs Ultras and make Terran bio viable against zerg in the late game. I'm not sure how good they are against buildings though. They might also be good against Dragoons, not sure though as people just refuse to use Maruaders . . . like not even trying them once.
-Vikings have splash damage and are good against mutas and probably carriers and science vessels. Once again, people just aren't even trying to use them. I've seen probably 6 games with Carriers vs Terran and in 0 of the games has the Terran tried to make Vikings to kill them.
-Ghosts have a Slow spell that works very well. Some cool Ghost builds have come out recently.
Just a lot of unexplored stuff and most people playing Brood War strategies aren't trying to incorporate the SC2 units because they don't know how they fit in. Just need more experimentation.
TLDR: We need really creative players to start playing Starbow and figure out how to use these units. This game is like 2% figured out with regards to the Meta.
On January 20 2014 10:17 superpanda27 wrote: The one thing about Starbow which may be due to the fact that it has its root in Brood War is that the new units, the ones that were introduced in SC2, don't feel like they have an identity yet. Some units don't feel like they are needed or are very much less useful. This also may be due to the fact that people aren't really experimenting with them.
I think this issue mostly affects Terran and Protoss. The marauder, viking, and stalker feel the most lost. I'm not entirely sure when you would want to use them. I mean the marauder obviously for tanking but between SB's marauder and SC2's marauder, it feels like a huge nerf.
So to anyone playing SB or to the developers, when would you want to use these units?
I'm experimenting with bio play a lot, as well as with vikings. I think that bio play still has a potential in TvP, with marauders being pretty key unit to deal with dragoons and tank up storms and reavers. For vikings I still didnt find an option, but I believe there should be one, About stalkers - in this thread were quite a few post considering stalker as a good unit to use, there was even some PvT build order with stalkers on it. So I think there is still a lot more to explore with this units.
The only thing I'm a little sad about is Corsairs over Phoenix. I really think Phoenix would have been great in this game, maybe toned down slightly. They were a fun unit to watch and use in SC2. And the Cosair is just very bland as a unit in comparison.
Im just gonna put this post here because I find it to be very interesting (AnteZ I hope you dont mind me taking the liberty to do so):
On January 20 2014 03:56 AnteZ wrote: Hello, thanks for this great mod. Your effort is very appreciated. I have taken another look at the problem of clumped movement and I have come up with a new approach (to my knowledge) to spread out units while moving. The basic idea is to have every unit followed by a neutral unit. The follower will take up space, and cause the other units in the clump to spread out.
I have hacked together a small demonstration. You can see the result here. Or search for "spread spread out movement" in the eu custom games (not arcade). I should say that the follower should be made invisible in a serious implementation.
Its a very dirty hack. I made it in 15 minutes and I have close to no experience with the editor. Here is what I did: I put some marines and neutral zerglings onto the map. Then I modified the zerglings to have a small little sphere as model. I set its push priority to 100 and its movement speed to 2.3. After that, I created a trigger that orders each zergling to follow one marine upon startup.
As a result, the silky smooth movements of the sc2 engine are mostly preserved, while the clumping is avoided. Further more, the units formation is never the same, although in my tests a preference for an arrow shaped patterns has shone through (similar tobird formations).
Let me know what you think and if you would consider implementing something like this into starbow.
EPT
