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More BW mechanics need to be in the game if mechanics such as mutalisks micro/move shot and such is going to exist. Units need to be difficult to control because of how strong certain micro abilities/units/spells are.
Currently mutalisk micro in the hands of a decent player is seemingly unstoppable (in starbow of course). You might be thinking "No, because terran have science vessels (easy-cast irradiate) and toss have corsairs/storms". A good player can avoid irradiate and simply get rid of the irradiated muta. Muta control is similar to bw in starbow so dodging storms is actually easier than it is in sc2. Though not that it matters as storms are a joke right now anyway so actually hitting the mutas doesn't particularly do anything...
Then you have the dragoon which is currently the ultimate A-move unit in the game because there is no unit selection cap. Zergling/bane is so strong at the moment it is insane. You just don't run from bw zerglings, as unlike their sc2 counter part they actually do damage. It's hilarious game after game watching marines be split (fairly well, not MKP status or anything) against ling bane only to die to the zerglings before the banelings hit. Now a lot of people will just say "oh it just needs to be balanced by changing some numbers around". Changing unit stats will just make fun units boring. A prime example of this is reaver,storms, and irradiate and how they are just weak now. Why go reaver when you can go goon?
If the starbow development team just messes with numbers we are going to end up with boring bw units. It is disgusting that irradiate doesn't kill lurkers anymore, but it's even more disgusting seeing 10 irradiates go off with no gap time because of smart-casting... The same can be said about storm, as it doesn't kill hydralisks anymore.
A couple paragraphs back you were probably thinking to yourself stats can be changed it's not a big deal, the game can be balanced that way. No it really can't unless we all want a similar version of sc2 (if the mod can even retain popularity long enough to get there)... Nerfing strong units isn't going to make the game fun, it just makes the units less fun to use, and lowers the variation between units. I mention the reaver again as i think it's really the best example of this practice thus far. Yeah it can kill a few workers, but only a few. People who are losing entire mineral lines to workers are new at the game. Especially considering the fact that sc2 collisions is still in the game (units move eachother). Which i'm not complaining about; relating back to starbow however, this means that a player can effectively run their workers away from threats with ease.
Units in bw on paper are OP, in game they were not because the mechanics of the game corrected this. Strong strategies in bw popped up all the time, certain units and unit combinations would look grotesquely imbalanced in the hands the right player. You don't need to balance a game that is already balanced by human error. If you aren't good enough to multitask you won't be good at bw. If you REALLY aren't good at multitasking you won't be good at sc2 either. Sc2 at times would require a player to have sudden spurts of high apm and these moments would be exciting, but as soon as it came it would already be over. Eventually the meta game devolved in sc2 to not even need micro (BL infestor time frame). Judging by the popularity of this mod, many people feel the same way as I do about Hots not being able to relinquish the grueling drudge of sc2.
The worst part is how ignorant people are being on this forum, and all the hate going towards implementing more bw mechanics. If it's not good it can be changed it's a mod. The fact that many people are completely against it is just sad. None of these people has even bothered to consider that their intuition about the "lesser,broken, dumbed down" Bw mechanics is wrong. Obviously the mod doesn't need to overhaul and have every single bw mechanic in it to make it a good game, but there are mechanics key mechanics from bw that just go together. Mixing and matching sc2 and bw mechanics with bw units isn't going to lead to a good game. Rather it will just lead to a long drawn out stat changing process that will devolve into stale gameplay.
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Why don't you just reduce time and mana consumption of high damage over time spell ? It'd be the same except you need to cast them more often so the micro need will be higher but the damage will be the same...
It'd work for Storm, Irradiate, Dark Swarm, Plague...
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Have to admit I'm pretty sold on it. Strong defenders advantages seem to allow comebacks, the economic system encourages more bases and the spread out and slower battles with swinging momentum are really nice to watch. I hope it holds it's momentum. I'm trying to still love SC2 but with it's no rush 15 blob on blob battles and samey maps to avoid balance breaking everything (FField and Collosus again...), it's too easily figured out, I'm getting bored of watching the same few games played out over and over.
Some kind of ladder would really help, although I can see Blizard being obstructive to that, given how many people are highlighting it as being much of what people wanted from SC2. Previous "this is our game not broodwar" type comments from DB don't inspire confidence, I hope they're moving away from that mindset as they see the game bleeding out.
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I'm actually kind of sad at how good Starbow looks. It's really pointing out some of the inherent flaws of SC2. I'm also surprised how seemingly well balanced it is. I mean it hasn't been played too much so there are probably super imba things we don't know about, but overall looking at the engagements it always appeared to be very well balanced.
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Quick question, as a meching terran, how do i secure more bases, as in, should make them into PF's, and maybe keep a couple of tanks+turrets there as well? its really scary being spread out on a big map with mech haha.
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On January 16 2014 11:09 rebuffering wrote:
Quick question, as a meching terran, how do i secure more bases, as in, should make them into PF's, and maybe keep a couple of tanks+turrets there as well? its really scary being spread out on a big map with mech haha.
Minefield the chock point, block the chock with Depots, siege behind Depots, Turrets the base, and have an Science Vessel nearby vs Defilers/Arbiters.
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Get rid of smart cast and see what happens from there. Then look at unit selection cap. That's my 2 cent.
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On January 16 2014 11:15 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 11:09 rebuffering wrote:
Quick question, as a meching terran, how do i secure more bases, as in, should make them into PF's, and maybe keep a couple of tanks+turrets there as well? its really scary being spread out on a big map with mech haha. Minefield the chock point, block the chock with Depots, siege behind Depots, Turrets the base, and have an Science Vessel nearby vs Defilers/Arbiters.
Damn, sounds like a lot of APM which i dont have haha.
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Yeah, this is like a BW mod for SC2. It is not an improved SC2 experience. Overall I much prefer SC2, but it is bit like comparing apples with oranges as they are not the same game at all.
It is fun for what it is, and more mods exploring RTS possibilities are always welcome.
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On January 16 2014 11:17 ( bush wrote:
Get rid of smart cast and see what happens from there. Then look at unit selection cap. That's my 2 cent.
SC2BW already did a unit selection cap, but last I heard it was kinda laggy due to the forced B.net latency. I dunno if they were able to fix it, and if not, I don't think such a selection cap would work in Starbow unless they come up with a more elegant solution to avoid the latency.
Smart cast can probably easily be removed, however. But that's an entire other can of worms to deal with.
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On January 16 2014 11:22 rebuffering wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 11:15 Xiphos wrote:On January 16 2014 11:09 rebuffering wrote:
Quick question, as a meching terran, how do i secure more bases, as in, should make them into PF's, and maybe keep a couple of tanks+turrets there as well? its really scary being spread out on a big map with mech haha. Minefield the chock point, block the chock with Depots, siege behind Depots, Turrets the base, and have an Science Vessel nearby vs Defilers/Arbiters. Damn, sounds like a lot of APM which i dont have haha.
It's actually less APM intensive than bio in SC2. Patience and proper positioning is the key. Mech is a very methodical playstyle, if your APM is lower, focus more on building core units like tanks/vultures/goliaths and securing bases using the aforementioned method. If you want APM intensive, try an eight base zerg vs mech terran in the late game, holy shit.
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On January 16 2014 10:14 Koxxypoxxy wrote:
More BW mechanics need to be in the game if mechanics such as mutalisks micro/move shot and such is going to exist. Units need to be difficult to control because of how strong certain micro abilities/units/spells are.
Currently mutalisk micro in the hands of a decent player is seemingly unstoppable (in starbow of course). You might be thinking "No, because terran have science vessels (easy-cast irradiate) and toss have corsairs/storms". A good player can avoid irradiate and simply get rid of the irradiated muta. Muta control is similar to bw in starbow so dodging storms is actually easier than it is in sc2. Though not that it matters as storms are a joke right now anyway so actually hitting the mutas doesn't particularly do anything..
Mutalisk micro isn't hard in BW.
And storms were barely ever used against mutas.
The counters to Muta openings are +1 5 Rax, and the Bisu build. Late game its late-mech with valkyrie. None of which rely on vessels or storm.
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Why not create a new RTS with the editor, instead of rehashing the "SC2ProMod" joke. I tried to brainstorm ideas for a constantly moving bases as the main gameplay and such, but I suck with the editor. And its not like SC2 has gotten anywhere near a skill ceiling like people thought. If that were true IdrA and Ret would be the best players right now. SC2 is faster and less forgiving than BW, and in turn makes it a different viewing experience than BW. Seriously, as talented as this team and community is - at this point you are just beating a dead horse. And artificially making the game harder, (15 secs vs 30 inject time,) is like playing football with a 25 pound backpack on. Congrats its harder to play but really? Who knows maybe this will get good I'll watch a few games from the tourney.
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On January 16 2014 10:35 sOvrn wrote:
I'm actually kind of sad at how good Starbow looks. It's really pointing out some of the inherent flaws of SC2. I'm also surprised how seemingly well balanced it is. I mean it hasn't been played too much so there are probably super imba things we don't know about, but overall looking at the engagements it always appeared to be very well balanced.
When everything is imba.
Then nothing is imba.
The dota 2 approach.
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On January 16 2014 11:45 Roswell wrote:
Why not create a new RTS with the editor, instead of rehashing the "SC2ProMod" joke. I tried to brainstorm ideas for a constantly moving bases as the main gameplay and such, but I suck with the editor. And its not like SC2 has gotten anywhere near a skill ceiling like people thought. If that were true IdrA and Ret would be the best players right now. SC2 is faster and less forgiving than BW, and in turn makes it a different viewing experience than BW. Seriously, as talented as this team and community is - at this point you are just beating a dead horse. And artificially making the game harder, (15 secs vs 30 inject time,) is like playing football with a 25 pound backpack on. Congrats its harder to play but really? Who knows maybe this will get good I'll watch a few games from the tourney.
Football mechanics have a much higher ceiling than Starcraft. There is infinite variability in just a pass for instance.
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On January 16 2014 11:45 Roswell wrote:
Why not create a new RTS with the editor, instead of rehashing the "SC2ProMod" joke. I tried to brainstorm ideas for a constantly moving bases as the main gameplay and such, but I suck with the editor. And its not like SC2 has gotten anywhere near a skill ceiling like people thought. If that were true IdrA and Ret would be the best players right now. SC2 is faster and less forgiving than BW, and in turn makes it a different viewing experience than BW. Seriously, as talented as this team and community is - at this point you are just beating a dead horse. And artificially making the game harder, (15 secs vs 30 inject time,) is like playing football with a 25 pound backpack on. Congrats its harder to play but really? Who knows maybe this will get good I'll watch a few games from the tourney.
No one disputes that SC2 has a high skill ceiling. The problem people have is with the play style of no rush 3 base deathball vs deathball that's more often than not over after 1 fight. It's a different style of game.
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Shouldn't irradiate oneshot at least lurkers? You can always bring queens along for protection (healing).
The decision to possibly remove smartcast is one that should be made quickly though, you can hardly wait another six months. I hope starbow won't devolve into giant vessel clouds hovering over the battlefield killing everything with an ability that's trivial to use.
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On January 16 2014 12:15 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 11:45 Roswell wrote:
Why not create a new RTS with the editor, instead of rehashing the "SC2ProMod" joke. I tried to brainstorm ideas for a constantly moving bases as the main gameplay and such, but I suck with the editor. And its not like SC2 has gotten anywhere near a skill ceiling like people thought. If that were true IdrA and Ret would be the best players right now. SC2 is faster and less forgiving than BW, and in turn makes it a different viewing experience than BW. Seriously, as talented as this team and community is - at this point you are just beating a dead horse. And artificially making the game harder, (15 secs vs 30 inject time,) is like playing football with a 25 pound backpack on. Congrats its harder to play but really? Who knows maybe this will get good I'll watch a few games from the tourney. No one disputes that SC2 has a high skill ceiling. The problem people have is with the play style of no rush 3 base deathball vs deathball that's more often than not over after 1 fight. It's a different style of game.
Then how about this, ok remove all tier1 units and see what happens.
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On January 16 2014 12:26 Roswell wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 12:15 oxxo wrote:On January 16 2014 11:45 Roswell wrote:
Why not create a new RTS with the editor, instead of rehashing the "SC2ProMod" joke. I tried to brainstorm ideas for a constantly moving bases as the main gameplay and such, but I suck with the editor. And its not like SC2 has gotten anywhere near a skill ceiling like people thought. If that were true IdrA and Ret would be the best players right now. SC2 is faster and less forgiving than BW, and in turn makes it a different viewing experience than BW. Seriously, as talented as this team and community is - at this point you are just beating a dead horse. And artificially making the game harder, (15 secs vs 30 inject time,) is like playing football with a 25 pound backpack on. Congrats its harder to play but really? Who knows maybe this will get good I'll watch a few games from the tourney. No one disputes that SC2 has a high skill ceiling. The problem people have is with the play style of no rush 3 base deathball vs deathball that's more often than not over after 1 fight. It's a different style of game. Then how about this, ok remove all tier1 units and see what happens.
Wat?
Why? What does that have to do with what that other guy said? He said the problem (one of the problems) is no rush 3 base deathball vs deathball. How would removing tier 1 units remedy that?
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Canada8160 Posts
played a few games today, it's ok
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EPT
