EPTStarbow - Page 260
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
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Kaos_StarCraft
Australia92 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
This is due to 45 hp marines in SB vs 40 hp marines in BW. (Since we have no combat shield upgrade, and melee units are in general better in the SC2 engine) @Kaos_SC Yes, I think very little tweaking is necessary. Lurkers are quite strong atm and I don't think they need a big buff. Maybe just changing the behavior so they can be stacked a bit tighter might be enough, since they already are plenty strong vs protoss. Also, add me back on skype?  | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On March 11 2014 01:41 Kaos_StarCraft wrote: Some random highlight thoughts from the Starbow chat. + Show Spoiler + Putting sc2 down isn't liked that much around these parts so I've double spoilered: + Show Spoiler + [01:53:33] Kaos: really need the KR stuff up for Starbow imo [01:54:24] Kaos: f2p is such a massive draw and untimately i believe Starbow is a far superior game to sc2 so you would assume the KR region upon finding this out would start slowly shifting over [01:55:21] Kaos: i dont give a shit about blizzard or the wcs its a terrible system and it killed the scene, especially in KR [01:56:30] Kaos: i mean i cant even bring myself to watch sc2 anymore not even to support my favourite players because the game is so morbidly simple [01:57:13] Kaos: the basic mechanics that blizzard decided in their infinite wisdow to remove killed the game, full stop [01:57:47] Kaos: there is no fixing that shit everybody whos got their fingers crossed for LotV is going to be sorely disappointed [02:02:07] Kaos: i really feel like sc2 is the LoL of RTS [02:02:40] Kaos: fundamental gameplay mechanics were removed yet everybody ate it up likes its the greatest thing ever [02:03:46] Kaos: its taken a long time for everybody to slowly realise how truly broken and substandard sc2 is, it pains me watching shows like Meta where these pros rack their brains trying to figure out how to fix the game [02:03:55] Kaos: i dont know whether to laugh or cry [02:05:04] Kaos: no high-ground mechanic actually breaks my brain, you could almost equate it to the removal of denies in LoL [02:12:59] Kaos: The Starbow dev team has done the right thing and it's so funny they started over 2 years ago. Instead of picking out all the reasons why sc2 isn't as good as it could be and endlessly posting the ideas hoping that something would change, they decided to do it themselves. Because they knew all these step-down things we see in the 1 dimensional gameplay that exists in sc2 are caused by the removal of core mechanics + core unit designs. [02:14:32] Kaos: It's glaringly obvious regardless of whether or not the same staffers still reside at blizzard that THEY THEMSELVES HAVE LITERALLY NO CLUE what made BroodWar great despite having the resources to learn right at their fingertips ala the KR scene. [02:22:39] Kaos: i just remember one of the very first things Dustin Browder said was something along the lines of: "This isnt SC:BW, if you want that you can go play it." In other words; "We didn't look at what made BroodWar fucking amazing, INSTEAD we're doing a completely new game with the Starcraft name." Anyways I love Starbow and I hope the scene continues to grow :D This is not a good way to introduce Starbow to Sc2 players. I understand what you are saying, but that is because I played BW and I liked it. People that didn't play it don't care for any of your arguments that are presented in a way: "Sc2 sucks, Blizzard sucks, BW rocks, let's all play Starbow!" And getting SC2 players to play Starbow should be the main mission as they are the biggest group that you can realistically recruit from. Pure BW players don't need Starbow when they can play BW and people that never played SC2 might try SB because it is free, but the game is not easier to play then SC2 so probably same reason why they would not play SC2 applies here. So focus should be to explain to SC2 players why they will have more fun playing Starbow and why certain changes are superior to SC2 and how it will change their playing experience. Any bashing of SC2 should not be part of this, but only explanations of positive difference. And yes, it does come down to all members of SB community to do this. When a random SC2 player comes here to check it out and he reads people bashing SC2 he/she is going to see us as a closed, negative, small community that gets its kicks around putting down SC2 and SC2 players. Oh and let me leave this quote from a Starbowmod.com forum member that shows us how we should be spreading "the good word" in a positive way: In Starcraft, I search for 1v1 games, using the normal "Unranked" search option. Once the normal Starcraft game starts, I start to chat in-game with my opponent, and ask him/her if they would be interested to rather play Starbow with me. If they agree, I invite them to a party, and start a Starbow game from the Arcade section. This approach has three benefits: (1) I find players of my skill level, because I rely on the Starcraft ladder (MMR) system. (2) In the process, I introduce new players to Starbow. Many players did not even know that Starbow existed. (3) In the end, this is good Starbow practice for me. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On March 11 2014 18:09 -Archangel- wrote: He also mentioned they 2shot marines in BW but cannot 2shot them in SB.. bw marines: 40 hp lurker damage 20: 2shots sbow marines 45 hp lurker damage 23: 2shots so they are even better in damage since in bw 1 marine armor means that they actually had to 3 shot a marine which is not the case in sbow. In addition Lurkers in sbow have more hp than in bw. So numberwise lurkers are superior to bw. I dont know where you get your numbers from. I would like personally if the devs would resize the marauder size smaller instead of buffing lurker splash. | ||
iHirO
United Kingdom1381 Posts
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On March 11 2014 19:42 404AlphaSquad wrote: bw marines: 40 hp lurker damage 20: 2shots sbow marines 45 hp lurker damage 23: 2shots so they are even better in damage since in bw 1 marine armor means that they actually had to 3 shot a marine which is not the case in sbow. In addition Lurkers in sbow have more hp than in bw. So numberwise lurkers are superior to bw. I dont know where you get your numbers from. I would like personally if the devs would resize the marauder size smaller instead of buffing lurker splash. tehredbandit: Lurkers also suffer from not being able to stack ontop of each other. When issued the burrow command, the lurks will fan out from one another to make room to burrow. This action may take less then a second to execute, but it makes a HUGE difference. If the devs fix anything, please fix this fanning out movement of the lurks. Also, the fact that the lurks can no longer be bunched up gives marines a larger surface area in which to fire from. Since lurers are more spread out when burrowed, bio vs lurk has been buffed from its BW predecessor in this respect. I do honestly feel that the lurkers need to be able to burrow more closly together. Even ON TOP of one another. Lurkers also need to two hit marines. Maybe he got it wrong, and I said in my post that I was talking about his comments. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On March 11 2014 20:09 -Archangel- wrote: Maybe he got it wrong, and I said in my post that I was talking about his comments. sry, I obviously did not read properly or misunderstood. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
The lurkers are more spread out(cant stack) so its easier to kill them(Enemy take less damage)(Lurkers do less damage) Marines with more agility makes lurkers burrow worse in offense and the agility from marines also makes the lurkers worse in defense Lurkers have 25extra hp tho, and 3extra damage. This is nice on paper vs protoss atleast, versus terran iam not so sure cuz of extra hp of firebats and the new unit marauder. Do not forget they changed it from medium to armored, so goons,marauder, tank do more dmg. Infact, dragoon kill him faster than in bw. 1armor from marines do indeed make them 3shot instead of 2 just like in bw, just to get that right since it removes 2damage (2hits) 46-2=44 One last thing which iam not 100% sure of but ive heard it from some bw zerg: When u burrow a lurker in bw and right click enemy asap the lurekrs will fire just when they burrow. Lurkers need agility buff imo(like their burrow speed) And they should be able to stack or else they need somethingelse(this one is very huge) Maybe get the Burrowattack from bw if its true on them. This would be a good start on him, maybe an attackspeed/or more wide on his aoe slightly(we do not wanna remove the concave micro from enemy units) | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On March 11 2014 18:09 -Archangel- wrote: He also mentioned they 2shot marines in BW but cannot 2shot them in SB.. Lurkers do 23 damage here though. | ||
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TT1
Canada10011 Posts
this is a pretty big issue in pvz | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On March 11 2014 19:42 404AlphaSquad wrote: bw marines: 40 hp lurker damage 20: 2shots sbow marines 45 hp lurker damage 23: 2shots so they are even better in damage since in bw 1 marine armor means that they actually had to 3 shot a marine which is not the case in sbow. In addition Lurkers in sbow have more hp than in bw. So numberwise lurkers are superior to bw. I dont know where you get your numbers from. I would like personally if the devs would resize the marauder size smaller instead of buffing lurker splash. Uh, they are also 3-shotting the Marines with +1 armor, they don't do 23 damage anymore but 22 and 2x22 = 44 while Marine has 45 HP. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 11 2014 21:48 TT1 wrote: "PvZ - As I said, if Protoss follow BW style, Protoss should be able to scout Zerg base because of early hydralisk pressure play. But in Starbow Protoss can't because: 1. Queen can kill probe 2. Zergling is faster than probe. It's kinda big deal in PvZ. Protoss has to know if Zerg is gonna hydra all in or just make hydra to make Protoss scared or just standard play." this is a pretty big issue in pvz So are gateway expands for a Zerg that wants to follow BW style. I don't think we have to adress those things until we really have proof that "not being able to play BW style" is problematic. There's also other factors, like Zerg making queens and Protoss making chronoboosts that mess with the timings anyways. And also the new units like Sentinels could make a difference in that as well. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
(Just a suggestion we have been discussing, want to hear what you guys think.) | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On March 11 2014 22:04 Xiphias wrote: If we increase Zealot speed before speed upgrade then gateway expand can be more viable and make it easier to scout vs zerg with initial zealots?? (Like from 2.09 to 2.20 for something along those lines) (Just a suggestion we have been discussing, want to hear what you guys think.) Two drawbacks with that change: 1) Zealot faster than marines makes 1base push with marines in tvp worse 2) The zealot attackdelay got removed, so did the zergling. I think that the zealot benefit more from this in zealot vs zergling so with an even faster zealot speed it will be even harder for the ling vs zealot I feel right now zergling vs zealot is much worse for the zergling compared to bw already. If iam wrong someone correct me These are not necessarily "problems". Personally i hope some things from bw get adressed in starbow. For example, making another strat availabe other than FFE in pvz. 1base 2fac build in tvp. Just examples. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
On March 11 2014 22:04 Xiphias wrote: If we increase Zealot speed before speed upgrade then gateway expand can be more viable and make it easier to scout vs zerg with initial zealots?? (Like from 2.09 to 2.20 for something along those lines) (Just a suggestion we have been discussing, want to hear what you guys think.) I think the game has matured enough to toy around with such things yea. We based everything on BW to have an easy time getting early balance right, but with more players understanding the game, it might be good to experiment with creating more differences for the sake of balance and playability. On the subject of Zealot speed, keep the balance between Zealots and Marines in mind. We might see unintended effects in PvT early game if Zealots gets too good at the start. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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TT1
Canada10011 Posts
On March 11 2014 21:57 Big J wrote: So are gateway expands for a Zerg that wants to follow BW style. I don't think we have to adress those things until we really have proof that "not being able to play BW style" is problematic. There's also other factors, like Zerg making queens and Protoss making chronoboosts that mess with the timings anyways. And also the new units like Sentinels could make a difference in that as well. what he means by "BW style" is that hydras are a hatch tech unit so protoss should be able to scout what the zerg is doing in order to have sufficient time to react properly. for example if you fe or gate exp and open stargate into sair (or any unit for that matter) when the zerg is going for a hydra opener its pretty much an autoloss for the toss. zerg still has the option of drone scouting p in the early game to check for gate expos and react accordingly, protoss isnt able to gather any type of information in the early game | ||
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Daumen
Germany1073 Posts
So I got 2 Questions: Any1 else also working on a German Translation atm? How the F*** should I translate "Matchmaking"? I think I should just leave that one in english :X (any1 running the German sc2 client? how did Blizzard translate it?) | ||
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iHirO
United Kingdom1381 Posts
I don't speak german. | ||
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