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Denmark9420 Posts
but theyre both just normal ground units that have ground/air attack. you cant deal with zergs ground efficiently because roachs + tunneling are too strong I also think Tunneling is very strong indeed based on the games I played/seen with it. But I think Kabel needs more verificiation before he nerfs. Would you mind uploading a replay that demonstrates the imbalance? | ||
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Diddywhop
United States42 Posts
On January 14 2014 02:17 TT1 wrote: but theyre both just normal ground units that have a ground/air attack. you cant deal with zergs ground efficiently because roachs + tunneling are too strong Do you feel like there is potential granted the stage of development? Do you feel like this will be a viable option for people to invest their time in if they aren't optimistic about SC2's progress? I can understand why most pros like yourself aren't diving in an undeveloped game just yet. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On January 14 2014 02:25 Laertes wrote: I have an interesting point to add to the smart cast argument. That is viewership. Even if you don't like smart cast, the alternative is far worse for viewership. Abilities have to do big things or they are not as exciting. Abilities have to be OP. Abilities could potentially be OP without smart cast but smart cast was a system that was proven to work. Even if you can't play like a pro, you are trading ease of play for exciting viewership. We are hoping not to have to take away smart casting, but if it is taken away, it will make viewership more exciting as a whole. In fact, a big part of SC2 is viewership and how exciting it is to watch it being play. This is imo the biggest potential of pro-starbow, how exciting it will be to watch. TL;DR Hopefully we won't have to take smart casting away, we never wanted smart casting because we knew it would be barrier to entry. Because this decision was fueled by respect to the community, it is ultimately up to the community to decide what to do about this. So its on you, I'll PM Kabel and hopefully we can get your voices heard. Well it works both ways, removing smart cast will make spells more "epic". Currently when you see an army gets stormed its just standard. Now imagine without smart casting and you knew the skills it would require to do right. It would suddenly look a lot more spectacular. Imo they should at least try for a bit to take smart casting away to test it out. | ||
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TT1
Canada10012 Posts
On January 14 2014 02:19 Diddywhop wrote: Do you feel like there is potential granted the stage of development? Do you feel like this will be a viable option for people to invest their time in if they aren't optimistic about SC2's progress? I can understand why most pros like yourself aren't diving in an undeveloped game just yet. sure theres potential, any game that has bw units + sc2 mechanics/graphics is bound to have potential. i would personally just add 1 unit per race(a flexbile unit that doesnt affect the early game) and remove alot of the new abilities and such. theres too much going on in the game, it just makes balancing it a huge headache bw was an amazing game because alot of the units were multi purposed, you didnt need to hardcounter units like you do in sc2. i think if your adding units specifically to hardcounter certain units youre going at it the wrong way, (i.e: goons have bonus dmg vs armored units so you need to make them vs roachs). that type of balancing restricts the gameplay and doesnt allow for alot of flexibility | ||
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ionONE
Germany605 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
bw was an amazing game because alot of the units were multi purposed, you didnt need to hardcounter units like you do in sc2. i think if your adding units specifically to hardcounter certain units youre going at it the wrong way, (i.e: goons have bonus dmg vs armored units so you need to make them vs roachs). that type of balancing restricts the gameplay and doesnt allow for alot of flexibility What did you build vs Lurkers in BW? | ||
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ionONE
Germany605 Posts
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
Dark Archon so you could Mind Control the terran's science vessel. No, but seriously, storm and reavers and goons with good spread dealt with lurkers pretty well. | ||
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TT1
Canada10012 Posts
goons + storm, but goon/storm worked against everything. goons arent efficient by themselves vs zerg but coupled with storm they allowed you to take on lings/hydras/lurkers/mutas etc etc etc. multi purpose unit~  in bw pvt protoss could open with goons and deal with everything terran threw at them in the early game, obviously you could still die to 1base 2fact pushs if you took a greedy expo but thats b.o related. the unit itself could deal with vults/marines/tanks/drops etc etc. adding a few units here and there can potentially screw up the entire balance of the game | ||
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Denmark9420 Posts
On January 14 2014 02:50 ionONE wrote: major won the game ... bio into mech If its a decent game (or better) it would be cool if you uploaded it. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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rift
1819 Posts
On January 14 2014 02:25 Laertes wrote: I have an interesting point to add to the smart cast argument. That is viewership. Even if you don't like smart cast, the alternative is far worse for viewership. Abilities have to do big things or they are not as exciting. Abilities have to be OP. Abilities could potentially be OP without smart cast but smart cast was a system that was proven to work. Even if you can't play like a pro, you are trading ease of play for exciting viewership. We are hoping not to have to take away smart casting, but if it is taken away, it will make viewership more exciting as a whole. In fact, a big part of SC2 is viewership and how exciting it is to watch it being play. This is imo the biggest potential of pro-starbow, how exciting it will be to watch. TL;DR Hopefully we won't have to take smart casting away, we never wanted smart casting because we knew it would be barrier to entry. Because this decision was fueled by respect to the community, it is ultimately up to the community to decide what to do about this. So its on you, I'll PM Kabel and hopefully we can get your voices heard. From years of watching BW I know that progamers are more than capable of using standard cast to blanket the screen in psi storms or use other abilities. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
On January 14 2014 02:53 TT1 wrote: goons + storm, but goon/storm worked against everything. goons arent efficient by themselves vs zerg but coupled with storm they allowed you to take on lings/hydras/lurkers/mutas etc etc etc. its a multi purpose unit~ But I don't think anything really is changed here in that regard. You still get Goons in the midgame (regardless of whether he goes Roaches or not) Further, I also don't think Roaches exactly hardcounter Zealots/Archons/Storm. Maybe they perform a bit too well under tunneling as it has 50% damage reduction during those 7 seconds. I suggested a nerf earlier today, and would there like if you had some replays of the imbalance? Btw, your probably aware of this, but just to make sure: Roaches cost 100/50 here, so they are more expensive than in Sc2. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
Is it absolutely necessary to counter something else in the game? | ||
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mTwRINE
Germany318 Posts
Since Storms deal alot less damage, even if you carpet the whole Zerg army, your Units are dead before you can cast a second round. | ||
Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4514 Posts
On January 14 2014 02:53 TT1 wrote: goons + storm, but goon/storm worked against everything. goons arent efficient by themselves vs zerg but coupled with storm they allowed you to take on lings/hydras/lurkers/mutas etc etc etc. multi purpose unit~ I dunno mate. It was all about the speedlot + Corsair combo. | ||
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TT1
Canada10012 Posts
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Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4514 Posts
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Diddywhop
United States42 Posts
On January 14 2014 02:54 Grumbels wrote: I hope that the progamers experimenting with Starbow take advantage of the opportunity to give feedback or at least send the replays of their games to Kabel&co. I second that. I would really like to see some good progress made on the mod since it seems pretty promising. I think the best thing that can happen for the developers is to get feedback from current pros. I mean with the right dedication and following it could take off. Its unfair to compare with DOTA since they pioneered a new genre of eSports. Even counter-strike started off as a mod. They don't have to be reinventing the wheel here, they could do something original while touching on a basis that make two games great. | ||
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