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On January 14 2014 00:06 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 23:40 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 13 2014 23:37 FFW_Rude wrote:On January 13 2014 23:15 Kabel wrote:On January 13 2014 23:14 FFW_Rude wrote:
When you say SC2 Mechanics is there automine as well and smartcasting ? Or just unlimited unit selection ?
I've been always tempted by this mod but i never remember to try it when i'm home Automine Smartcast Unlimited selection We are actually considering to remove smart cast. It won´t happen now all of a sudden, but maybe try it in a test map to see how players feel about it. OKay  Thank you for your response. Hope i can try it oneday. Good Job in anycase. Because apparently you made a "Better BW". Didn't thought that was possible It isn't a better BW, if you expect that you will most likely be disappointed, it has the BW spirit though. Oh ok. My comment was more than : if you did that then it's a hell of a job you did. It was more of a compliment that something i want as i did not play that mod (hope that makes sense)
ahaha yeah, don't get me wrong, the mod is great nonetheless!
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Just played 3 games with a friend and it was a lot of fun. The biggest improvement is still the whole protoss race imo. It's just much more fun to play and play against. Of course the economy is way better too.
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On January 14 2014 00:02 opisska wrote:
You can't be seriously thinking about removing smartcasting, if you want this to get any big. Yes, it will appeal to oldschool BW fans but will completely alienate most of the SC2 playerbase, which is much bigger (even if it doesn't look like that when you read TL). If you don't keep the improvements to the UI that came with SC2, there won't be many reasons left to not play BW instead. Even the authors of the mod appreciate that they don't want to produce "BW in better resolution" - and that's a good idea seeing how little people care about SC2BW,
Just chiming in to echo this.
I followed this mod a while ago (and playing it was probably the most fun I had with sc2, period), but afaik, it eventually started messing with things like limited control groups and such.
At that point my interest vanished pretty much instantly.
Maybe some of the engine limitations back then lead to higher mechanical execution, but that doesn't make it good per default. The mod does a good job achieving the same goals through other means, so I don't think clumsy controls should come back when they aren't even needed for good gameplay. I'm afraid things like this really would alienate a big part of a potential playerbase.
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Is the displayed damage on units always the damage it does? Or do units have attack types like in broodwar?
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On January 14 2014 00:16 Kefir wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 00:02 opisska wrote:
You can't be seriously thinking about removing smartcasting, if you want this to get any big. Yes, it will appeal to oldschool BW fans but will completely alienate most of the SC2 playerbase, which is much bigger (even if it doesn't look like that when you read TL). If you don't keep the improvements to the UI that came with SC2, there won't be many reasons left to not play BW instead. Even the authors of the mod appreciate that they don't want to produce "BW in better resolution" - and that's a good idea seeing how little people care about SC2BW, Just chiming in to echo this. I followed this mod a while ago (and playing it was probably the most fun I had with sc2, period), but afaik, it eventually started messing with things like limited control groups and such. At that point my interest vanished pretty much instantly. Maybe some of the engine limitations back then lead to higher mechanical execution, but that doesn't make it good per default. The mod does a good job achieving the same goals through other means, so I don't think clumsy controls should come back when they aren't even needed for good gameplay. I'm afraid things like this really would alienate a big part of a potential playerbase.
I think it is better to have no smartcast than nerf spells though. I can understand that people like unlimited control groups and mbs, i won't even argue that you should remove things like that, but i don't get the idea that you need smartcast really..
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On January 14 2014 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 00:16 Kefir wrote:On January 14 2014 00:02 opisska wrote:
You can't be seriously thinking about removing smartcasting, if you want this to get any big. Yes, it will appeal to oldschool BW fans but will completely alienate most of the SC2 playerbase, which is much bigger (even if it doesn't look like that when you read TL). If you don't keep the improvements to the UI that came with SC2, there won't be many reasons left to not play BW instead. Even the authors of the mod appreciate that they don't want to produce "BW in better resolution" - and that's a good idea seeing how little people care about SC2BW, Just chiming in to echo this. I followed this mod a while ago (and playing it was probably the most fun I had with sc2, period), but afaik, it eventually started messing with things like limited control groups and such. At that point my interest vanished pretty much instantly. Maybe some of the engine limitations back then lead to higher mechanical execution, but that doesn't make it good per default. The mod does a good job achieving the same goals through other means, so I don't think clumsy controls should come back when they aren't even needed for good gameplay. I'm afraid things like this really would alienate a big part of a potential playerbase. I think it is better to have no smartcast than nerf spells though. I can understand that people like unlimited control groups and mbs, i won't even argue that you should remove things like that, but i don't get the idea that you need smartcast really..
regular ladder hero:
"people say this is cool, let's try it.
*spend 20 minutes building up an army sc2 style, exploring new units and whatnot*
"wow these games take a lot longer than usual..."
"alright, time to move out! let's do this!"
"huh?! why aren't my storms casting? why aren't my fungals casting? why doesn't my EMP work?!"
"well fuck this, i just want to have fun, not get artificially limited. I just lost my entire army because my spells don't cast. back to ladder."
it's really frustrating to have no smartcast if you've only played SC2 and not BW, like me.
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On January 14 2014 00:31 cptjibberjabber wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 14 2014 00:16 Kefir wrote:On January 14 2014 00:02 opisska wrote:
You can't be seriously thinking about removing smartcasting, if you want this to get any big. Yes, it will appeal to oldschool BW fans but will completely alienate most of the SC2 playerbase, which is much bigger (even if it doesn't look like that when you read TL). If you don't keep the improvements to the UI that came with SC2, there won't be many reasons left to not play BW instead. Even the authors of the mod appreciate that they don't want to produce "BW in better resolution" - and that's a good idea seeing how little people care about SC2BW, Just chiming in to echo this. I followed this mod a while ago (and playing it was probably the most fun I had with sc2, period), but afaik, it eventually started messing with things like limited control groups and such. At that point my interest vanished pretty much instantly. Maybe some of the engine limitations back then lead to higher mechanical execution, but that doesn't make it good per default. The mod does a good job achieving the same goals through other means, so I don't think clumsy controls should come back when they aren't even needed for good gameplay. I'm afraid things like this really would alienate a big part of a potential playerbase. I think it is better to have no smartcast than nerf spells though. I can understand that people like unlimited control groups and mbs, i won't even argue that you should remove things like that, but i don't get the idea that you need smartcast really.. regular ladder hero: "people say this is cool, let's try it. *spend 20 minutes building up an army sc2 style, exploring new units and whatnot* "wow these games take a lot longer than usual..." "alright, time to move out! let's do this!" "huh?! why aren't my storms casting? why aren't my fungals casting? why doesn't my EMP work?!" "well fuck this, i just want to have fun, not get artificially limited. back to ladder. these games take too long anyway"
Your agument is way too extreme, i could say the same for several other things that are in the mod right now, but you have to do some "artificial" stuff if you wanna have exciting / rewarding gameplay.
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On January 14 2014 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 00:16 Kefir wrote:On January 14 2014 00:02 opisska wrote:
You can't be seriously thinking about removing smartcasting, if you want this to get any big. Yes, it will appeal to oldschool BW fans but will completely alienate most of the SC2 playerbase, which is much bigger (even if it doesn't look like that when you read TL). If you don't keep the improvements to the UI that came with SC2, there won't be many reasons left to not play BW instead. Even the authors of the mod appreciate that they don't want to produce "BW in better resolution" - and that's a good idea seeing how little people care about SC2BW, Just chiming in to echo this. I followed this mod a while ago (and playing it was probably the most fun I had with sc2, period), but afaik, it eventually started messing with things like limited control groups and such. At that point my interest vanished pretty much instantly. Maybe some of the engine limitations back then lead to higher mechanical execution, but that doesn't make it good per default. The mod does a good job achieving the same goals through other means, so I don't think clumsy controls should come back when they aren't even needed for good gameplay. I'm afraid things like this really would alienate a big part of a potential playerbase. I think it is better to have no smartcast than nerf spells though. I can understand that people like unlimited control groups and mbs, i won't even argue that you should remove things like that, but i don't get the idea that you need smartcast really..
What other spells than Psy Storm (already got a DPS nerf) really need a noticeable nerf though? Like what other abilities benefits significantly from smartcast?
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Northern Ireland25388 Posts
I think smartcast removal on some abilities would be cool to at least look at.
Basically abilities that are really potent, but made hard to use efficiently due to needing manually cast. Storm, plague etc?
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On January 14 2014 00:39 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 14 2014 00:16 Kefir wrote:On January 14 2014 00:02 opisska wrote:
You can't be seriously thinking about removing smartcasting, if you want this to get any big. Yes, it will appeal to oldschool BW fans but will completely alienate most of the SC2 playerbase, which is much bigger (even if it doesn't look like that when you read TL). If you don't keep the improvements to the UI that came with SC2, there won't be many reasons left to not play BW instead. Even the authors of the mod appreciate that they don't want to produce "BW in better resolution" - and that's a good idea seeing how little people care about SC2BW, Just chiming in to echo this. I followed this mod a while ago (and playing it was probably the most fun I had with sc2, period), but afaik, it eventually started messing with things like limited control groups and such. At that point my interest vanished pretty much instantly. Maybe some of the engine limitations back then lead to higher mechanical execution, but that doesn't make it good per default. The mod does a good job achieving the same goals through other means, so I don't think clumsy controls should come back when they aren't even needed for good gameplay. I'm afraid things like this really would alienate a big part of a potential playerbase. I think it is better to have no smartcast than nerf spells though. I can understand that people like unlimited control groups and mbs, i won't even argue that you should remove things like that, but i don't get the idea that you need smartcast really.. What other spells than Psy Storm (already got a DPS nerf) really need a noticeable nerf though? Like what other abilities benefits significantly from smartcast?
I don't know really, i just think that the spells are all really strong and if you make them too easy to use it kinda defeats the purpose, maybe that is just me, but i REALLY dislike smartcast and i don't even play BW (just watch it)
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On January 14 2014 00:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 00:31 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 14 2014 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 14 2014 00:16 Kefir wrote:On January 14 2014 00:02 opisska wrote:
You can't be seriously thinking about removing smartcasting, if you want this to get any big. Yes, it will appeal to oldschool BW fans but will completely alienate most of the SC2 playerbase, which is much bigger (even if it doesn't look like that when you read TL). If you don't keep the improvements to the UI that came with SC2, there won't be many reasons left to not play BW instead. Even the authors of the mod appreciate that they don't want to produce "BW in better resolution" - and that's a good idea seeing how little people care about SC2BW, Just chiming in to echo this. I followed this mod a while ago (and playing it was probably the most fun I had with sc2, period), but afaik, it eventually started messing with things like limited control groups and such. At that point my interest vanished pretty much instantly. Maybe some of the engine limitations back then lead to higher mechanical execution, but that doesn't make it good per default. The mod does a good job achieving the same goals through other means, so I don't think clumsy controls should come back when they aren't even needed for good gameplay. I'm afraid things like this really would alienate a big part of a potential playerbase. I think it is better to have no smartcast than nerf spells though. I can understand that people like unlimited control groups and mbs, i won't even argue that you should remove things like that, but i don't get the idea that you need smartcast really.. regular ladder hero: "people say this is cool, let's try it. *spend 20 minutes building up an army sc2 style, exploring new units and whatnot* "wow these games take a lot longer than usual..." "alright, time to move out! let's do this!" "huh?! why aren't my storms casting? why aren't my fungals casting? why doesn't my EMP work?!" "well fuck this, i just want to have fun, not get artificially limited. back to ladder. these games take too long anyway" Your agument is way too extreme, i could say the same for several other things that are in the mod right now, but you have to do some "artificial" stuff if you wanna have exciting / rewarding gameplay.
He has a valid point though. There are heroes in dota that are fustrating because of the lack of smart casting(visage and his birds) and people avoid playing him because of it. That's fine in dota since you have 100 heroes to pick from, but onSC2 you have to use those units. Removing smart casting could really limit the mods appeal to people who are not super into the nuance of BW mechanics.
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On January 14 2014 00:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 00:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 14 2014 00:31 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 14 2014 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 14 2014 00:16 Kefir wrote:On January 14 2014 00:02 opisska wrote:
You can't be seriously thinking about removing smartcasting, if you want this to get any big. Yes, it will appeal to oldschool BW fans but will completely alienate most of the SC2 playerbase, which is much bigger (even if it doesn't look like that when you read TL). If you don't keep the improvements to the UI that came with SC2, there won't be many reasons left to not play BW instead. Even the authors of the mod appreciate that they don't want to produce "BW in better resolution" - and that's a good idea seeing how little people care about SC2BW, Just chiming in to echo this. I followed this mod a while ago (and playing it was probably the most fun I had with sc2, period), but afaik, it eventually started messing with things like limited control groups and such. At that point my interest vanished pretty much instantly. Maybe some of the engine limitations back then lead to higher mechanical execution, but that doesn't make it good per default. The mod does a good job achieving the same goals through other means, so I don't think clumsy controls should come back when they aren't even needed for good gameplay. I'm afraid things like this really would alienate a big part of a potential playerbase. I think it is better to have no smartcast than nerf spells though. I can understand that people like unlimited control groups and mbs, i won't even argue that you should remove things like that, but i don't get the idea that you need smartcast really.. regular ladder hero: "people say this is cool, let's try it. *spend 20 minutes building up an army sc2 style, exploring new units and whatnot* "wow these games take a lot longer than usual..." "alright, time to move out! let's do this!" "huh?! why aren't my storms casting? why aren't my fungals casting? why doesn't my EMP work?!" "well fuck this, i just want to have fun, not get artificially limited. back to ladder. these games take too long anyway" Your agument is way too extreme, i could say the same for several other things that are in the mod right now, but you have to do some "artificial" stuff if you wanna have exciting / rewarding gameplay. He has a valid point though. There are heroes in dota that are fustrating because of the lack of smart casting(visage and his birds) and people avoid playing him because of it. That's fine in dota since you have 100 heroes to pick from, but onSC2 you have to use those units. Removing smart casting could really limit the mods appeal to people who are not super into the nuance of BW mechanics.
I don't know man, it depends what you guys think starbow should/can achieve.
I think a lot of people in the rts community won't give a fuck if you explain them WHY there is no smartcast.
If you wanna get people into it that aren't playing rts games, i think this is doomed to failure either way.
I mean i can understand that people will not like it first, but never playing the game again cause of that? srsly?
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i want to play. who can i play with that would give me a challenge?
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On January 14 2014 00:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 00:44 Plansix wrote:On January 14 2014 00:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 14 2014 00:31 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 14 2014 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 14 2014 00:16 Kefir wrote:On January 14 2014 00:02 opisska wrote:
You can't be seriously thinking about removing smartcasting, if you want this to get any big. Yes, it will appeal to oldschool BW fans but will completely alienate most of the SC2 playerbase, which is much bigger (even if it doesn't look like that when you read TL). If you don't keep the improvements to the UI that came with SC2, there won't be many reasons left to not play BW instead. Even the authors of the mod appreciate that they don't want to produce "BW in better resolution" - and that's a good idea seeing how little people care about SC2BW, Just chiming in to echo this. I followed this mod a while ago (and playing it was probably the most fun I had with sc2, period), but afaik, it eventually started messing with things like limited control groups and such. At that point my interest vanished pretty much instantly. Maybe some of the engine limitations back then lead to higher mechanical execution, but that doesn't make it good per default. The mod does a good job achieving the same goals through other means, so I don't think clumsy controls should come back when they aren't even needed for good gameplay. I'm afraid things like this really would alienate a big part of a potential playerbase. I think it is better to have no smartcast than nerf spells though. I can understand that people like unlimited control groups and mbs, i won't even argue that you should remove things like that, but i don't get the idea that you need smartcast really.. regular ladder hero: "people say this is cool, let's try it. *spend 20 minutes building up an army sc2 style, exploring new units and whatnot* "wow these games take a lot longer than usual..." "alright, time to move out! let's do this!" "huh?! why aren't my storms casting? why aren't my fungals casting? why doesn't my EMP work?!" "well fuck this, i just want to have fun, not get artificially limited. back to ladder. these games take too long anyway" Your agument is way too extreme, i could say the same for several other things that are in the mod right now, but you have to do some "artificial" stuff if you wanna have exciting / rewarding gameplay. He has a valid point though. There are heroes in dota that are fustrating because of the lack of smart casting(visage and his birds) and people avoid playing him because of it. That's fine in dota since you have 100 heroes to pick from, but onSC2 you have to use those units. Removing smart casting could really limit the mods appeal to people who are not super into the nuance of BW mechanics. I don't know man, it depends what you guys think starbow should/can achieve. I think a lot of people in the rts community won't give a fuck if you explain them WHY there is no smartcast. If you wanna get people into it that aren't playing rts games, i think this is doomed to failure either way. I mean i can understand that people will not like it first, but never playing the game again cause of that? srsly?
I play visage in dota, so I might put up with it. I don't have a single friend in real life that would put with no smart casting. And these are guys who love games like dawn of war and sins of a solar empire. They won't struggle against a use because the deigner think it make game play deeper.
And that is the question. Do you want to appeal to people who like RTS games in general or just the people in this thread and hardcore BW fans.
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On January 14 2014 00:56 MajOr wrote:
i want to play. who can i play with that would give me a challenge?
Harass LaLush in Euroland around 1:00pm - 3:00pm CST.
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On January 14 2014 00:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 00:44 Plansix wrote:On January 14 2014 00:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 14 2014 00:31 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 14 2014 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 14 2014 00:16 Kefir wrote:On January 14 2014 00:02 opisska wrote:
You can't be seriously thinking about removing smartcasting, if you want this to get any big. Yes, it will appeal to oldschool BW fans but will completely alienate most of the SC2 playerbase, which is much bigger (even if it doesn't look like that when you read TL). If you don't keep the improvements to the UI that came with SC2, there won't be many reasons left to not play BW instead. Even the authors of the mod appreciate that they don't want to produce "BW in better resolution" - and that's a good idea seeing how little people care about SC2BW, Just chiming in to echo this. I followed this mod a while ago (and playing it was probably the most fun I had with sc2, period), but afaik, it eventually started messing with things like limited control groups and such. At that point my interest vanished pretty much instantly. Maybe some of the engine limitations back then lead to higher mechanical execution, but that doesn't make it good per default. The mod does a good job achieving the same goals through other means, so I don't think clumsy controls should come back when they aren't even needed for good gameplay. I'm afraid things like this really would alienate a big part of a potential playerbase. I think it is better to have no smartcast than nerf spells though. I can understand that people like unlimited control groups and mbs, i won't even argue that you should remove things like that, but i don't get the idea that you need smartcast really.. regular ladder hero: "people say this is cool, let's try it. *spend 20 minutes building up an army sc2 style, exploring new units and whatnot* "wow these games take a lot longer than usual..." "alright, time to move out! let's do this!" "huh?! why aren't my storms casting? why aren't my fungals casting? why doesn't my EMP work?!" "well fuck this, i just want to have fun, not get artificially limited. back to ladder. these games take too long anyway" Your agument is way too extreme, i could say the same for several other things that are in the mod right now, but you have to do some "artificial" stuff if you wanna have exciting / rewarding gameplay. He has a valid point though. There are heroes in dota that are fustrating because of the lack of smart casting(visage and his birds) and people avoid playing him because of it. That's fine in dota since you have 100 heroes to pick from, but onSC2 you have to use those units. Removing smart casting could really limit the mods appeal to people who are not super into the nuance of BW mechanics. I don't know man, it depends what you guys think starbow should/can achieve. I think a lot of people in the rts community won't give a fuck if you explain them WHY there is no smartcast. If you wanna get people into it that aren't playing rts games, i think this is doomed to failure either way. I mean i can understand that people will not like it first, but never playing the game again cause of that? srsly? Yes. It's frustrating and obnoxious, and since game balance will have to rely on being able to use the spells at your disposal, it adds a very hard ceiling for players who are unable to do so with consistency, whether due to their own imprecise control, or hardware/connection limitations.
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On January 14 2014 01:00 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 00:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 14 2014 00:44 Plansix wrote:On January 14 2014 00:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 14 2014 00:31 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 14 2014 00:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 14 2014 00:16 Kefir wrote:On January 14 2014 00:02 opisska wrote:
You can't be seriously thinking about removing smartcasting, if you want this to get any big. Yes, it will appeal to oldschool BW fans but will completely alienate most of the SC2 playerbase, which is much bigger (even if it doesn't look like that when you read TL). If you don't keep the improvements to the UI that came with SC2, there won't be many reasons left to not play BW instead. Even the authors of the mod appreciate that they don't want to produce "BW in better resolution" - and that's a good idea seeing how little people care about SC2BW, Just chiming in to echo this. I followed this mod a while ago (and playing it was probably the most fun I had with sc2, period), but afaik, it eventually started messing with things like limited control groups and such. At that point my interest vanished pretty much instantly. Maybe some of the engine limitations back then lead to higher mechanical execution, but that doesn't make it good per default. The mod does a good job achieving the same goals through other means, so I don't think clumsy controls should come back when they aren't even needed for good gameplay. I'm afraid things like this really would alienate a big part of a potential playerbase. I think it is better to have no smartcast than nerf spells though. I can understand that people like unlimited control groups and mbs, i won't even argue that you should remove things like that, but i don't get the idea that you need smartcast really.. regular ladder hero: "people say this is cool, let's try it. *spend 20 minutes building up an army sc2 style, exploring new units and whatnot* "wow these games take a lot longer than usual..." "alright, time to move out! let's do this!" "huh?! why aren't my storms casting? why aren't my fungals casting? why doesn't my EMP work?!" "well fuck this, i just want to have fun, not get artificially limited. back to ladder. these games take too long anyway" Your agument is way too extreme, i could say the same for several other things that are in the mod right now, but you have to do some "artificial" stuff if you wanna have exciting / rewarding gameplay. He has a valid point though. There are heroes in dota that are fustrating because of the lack of smart casting(visage and his birds) and people avoid playing him because of it. That's fine in dota since you have 100 heroes to pick from, but onSC2 you have to use those units. Removing smart casting could really limit the mods appeal to people who are not super into the nuance of BW mechanics. I don't know man, it depends what you guys think starbow should/can achieve. I think a lot of people in the rts community won't give a fuck if you explain them WHY there is no smartcast. If you wanna get people into it that aren't playing rts games, i think this is doomed to failure either way. I mean i can understand that people will not like it first, but never playing the game again cause of that? srsly? Yes. It's frustrating and obnoxious, and since game balance will have to rely on being able to use the spells at your disposal, it adds a very hard ceiling for players who are unable to do so with consistency, whether due to their own imprecise control, or hardware/connection limitations.
All i can say that there is a reason that the spells in sc2 had to be nerfed over and over again, the same will be true for this mod i think.
But whatever that's just my point of view^^
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On January 14 2014 01:24 MajOr wrote:
i want gameeeeeeee
join the starbow channel on EU! Should find plenty of people there that would like to get torn apart by you
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On January 14 2014 01:25 Big J wrote:join the starbow channel on EU! Should find plenty of people there that would like to get torn apart by you
Just a friendly note. Join the *chat* channel Starbow. There is also a Starbow group channel. The chat channel is where you want to be.
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EPT
