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Starbow - Page 188

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Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
February 15 2014 16:55 GMT
#3741
interested in how marauders will deal w/ banes now
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-15 19:21:13
February 15 2014 18:16 GMT
#3742
Have to be careful with lowering cooldowns too much though, otherwise there is no risk attached to an ability like blink.

Also, from another perspective, I think continuity between Starbow and Starcraft 2 is a good thing. Players will transition from that game to Starbow and will have to get used to a blink that has a cooldown that is one second lower. I think it's slightly odd when you also had the choice to go from 12->10 instead of 12->9. Doesn't really matter though, but it's an interesting technicality I thought.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Foxxan
Profile Joined October 2004
Sweden3427 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-15 18:23:12
February 15 2014 18:20 GMT
#3743
- Spider mines no longer attack Larvas or other Spider mines.
- Null wards no longer attack Larvas, Eggs or Spider mines.
Spidermines killed larva in broodwar.
I dont see why they are categorized as buggs.
Dont see the logic in these things.

The future section i liked
FromShouri
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
United States862 Posts
February 15 2014 18:26 GMT
#3744
On February 16 2014 03:20 Foxxan wrote:
- Spider mines no longer attack Larvas or other Spider mines.
- Null wards no longer attack Larvas, Eggs or Spider mines.
Spidermines killed larva in broodwar.
I dont see why they are categorized as buggs.
Dont see the logic in these things.

The future section i liked


Spider Mines didn't trigger on larva, but did kill it if triggered by a unit near larva.
Limited Edition, lets do some simple addition, $50 for a T-Shirt is just some ignorant bitch shit.
Neighbor
Profile Joined May 2009
United States119 Posts
February 15 2014 18:32 GMT
#3745
On February 16 2014 03:26 FromShouri wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2014 03:20 Foxxan wrote:
- Spider mines no longer attack Larvas or other Spider mines.
- Null wards no longer attack Larvas, Eggs or Spider mines.
Spidermines killed larva in broodwar.
I dont see why they are categorized as buggs.
Dont see the logic in these things.

The future section i liked


Spider Mines didn't trigger on larva, but did kill it if triggered by a unit near larva.

They trigger on both larva and eggs.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Spider_Mine
404AlphaSquad
Profile Joined October 2011
839 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-15 19:02:33
February 15 2014 18:49 GMT
#3746
Who designed the starbow version of Iron curtain. The mapmaker clearly didnt understand anything about it and thats why 2v2´s are so horrible on it.
1) the spawning is the complete opposite than what it was in bw. You are supposed to spawn with an opponent on your side of the map. but here you spawn with your ally.
see here how it should be!
2) the mineralplacement in the middle should only allow small units to pass. not entire goon armys.

=> the "remake" sucks because of those issues. Please fix this map!!! I just played 2 games on it. Its a violation of a classic bw map :/

For reference how exciting this map can be
aka Kalevi
Daumen
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany1073 Posts
February 15 2014 19:11 GMT
#3747
On February 15 2014 08:09 Fencar wrote:
I'm super excited for this. Starbow is fun, but I felt like without a ladder system, I couldn't really improve that much facing random opponents from super varied skill levels. With a ladder system, I can actually grind out flaws in my play much more effectively than taking an extra few minutes to find someone in the chat channel that's *very* roughly around my skill level.


i just really hope that its going to work, I still cry at night that StarbowArena is pretty much dead. We dont need another dead Ladder :X

Any info on if theres going to be 1 Global or Region Ladders? I tried to play on NA once, didnt work out so well :X And I got a 100mb/s connection, thats considered good in german at least :o
President of the ReaL Fan Club.
Mullet_Ben
Profile Joined August 2011
United States54 Posts
February 15 2014 19:41 GMT
#3748
On February 16 2014 03:49 404AlphaSquad wrote:
Who designed the starbow version of Iron curtain. The mapmaker clearly didnt understand anything about it and thats why 2v2´s are so horrible on it.
1) the spawning is the complete opposite than what it was in bw. You are supposed to spawn with an opponent on your side of the map. but here you spawn with your ally.
see here how it should be!
2) the mineralplacement in the middle should only allow small units to pass. not entire goon armys.

=> the "remake" sucks because of those issues. Please fix this map!!! I just played 2 games on it. Its a violation of a classic bw map :/

For reference how exciting this map can be



Correct me if I'm wrong, but in BW weren't the spawns completely random? Sometimes you spawn the same side, some times you spawn opposite.

404AlphaSquad
Profile Joined October 2011
839 Posts
February 15 2014 19:49 GMT
#3749
On February 16 2014 04:41 Mullet_Ben wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2014 03:49 404AlphaSquad wrote:
Who designed the starbow version of Iron curtain. The mapmaker clearly didnt understand anything about it and thats why 2v2´s are so horrible on it.
1) the spawning is the complete opposite than what it was in bw. You are supposed to spawn with an opponent on your side of the map. but here you spawn with your ally.
see here how it should be!
2) the mineralplacement in the middle should only allow small units to pass. not entire goon armys.

=> the "remake" sucks because of those issues. Please fix this map!!! I just played 2 games on it. Its a violation of a classic bw map :/

For reference how exciting this map can be



Correct me if I'm wrong, but in BW weren't the spawns completely random? Sometimes you spawn the same side, some times you spawn opposite.


No you are wrong. UMS Settings were always how I presented it.
aka Kalevi
Jermman
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada174 Posts
February 15 2014 20:31 GMT
#3750
On February 16 2014 04:11 Daumen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2014 08:09 Fencar wrote:
I'm super excited for this. Starbow is fun, but I felt like without a ladder system, I couldn't really improve that much facing random opponents from super varied skill levels. With a ladder system, I can actually grind out flaws in my play much more effectively than taking an extra few minutes to find someone in the chat channel that's *very* roughly around my skill level.


i just really hope that its going to work, I still cry at night that StarbowArena is pretty much dead. We dont need another dead Ladder :X

Any info on if theres going to be 1 Global or Region Ladders? I tried to play on NA once, didnt work out so well :X And I got a 100mb/s connection, thats considered good in german at least :o

Starbow arena is dead because its not the official ladder from the devs and its not promoted. I think the official ladder will be great.
Terran/Random Player
Ramiz1989
Profile Joined July 2012
12124 Posts
February 15 2014 21:54 GMT
#3751
On February 16 2014 01:25 Kabel wrote:
Patch

Bug fixes:
+ Show Spoiler +
- Spider mines no longer attack Larvas or other Spider mines.
- Null wards no longer attack Larvas, Eggs or Spider mines.
- Scourges now provide points in the score screen.
- And a lot more...


Balance changes:
+ Show Spoiler +

- Roach Tunnel ability cooldown reduced from 12 sec to 6 sec. Duration remains at 4 sec. Roaches now take full dmg from enemy units while burrowed.

- Stalker dmg increased from 7 to 8. (Still deals +50% vs light)
- Stalker shield increased from 40 to 60.
- Blink cooldown reduced from 12 to 9 seconds.
- Stalker armor changed from Armored to Medium

- Marauder starting speed increased from 1.97 to 2.07 (Same as Marines)
- Barrel stabilizer upgrade now increases Marauders attack range by 2. (Marines still get +1 range)

- Elite Reaper training now requires Engineering bay.
- Elite Reaper training BT reduced from 186 sec to 120 sec.
- Reaper Bombs dmg changed from 60+20 vs structure, to 80 vs all. (Allows them to 2-shot Tanks.)

- Flying Viking attack dmg increased from 2x8 dmg to 2x10 dmg.
- Flying Viking splash dmg reduced from 25% to 20%. (Still maintains the same splash DPS)
- Flying Viking turn rate increased so it is more agile.

- Recall can teleport four more units, up to a maximum of 20 units.


Explanation:
+ Show Spoiler +
The Stalker intends to be a fragile, highly mobile skirmish unit, capable of harassment and damage support.
It is currently a very narrow unit who sees useful play in rare situations: in PvZ vs Mutas, and sometimes in lategame TvP. We would like to make it more meaningful in other stages of the game, preferably in all match-ups.

>>>+ Show Spoiler +
- The change to damage makes the Stalker slightly better vs more types of units.

- Shorter Blink cooldown allows more micro - get in and out of bases easier, catch enemy units, abuse terrain, more blink micro in combat etc.

- Having Medium as armor class makes the Stalker less hard countered by units who deal explosive damage, such as
Dragoons or Hydralisks. This in combination with the buff to shield by 20, makes sieged Siege Tanks kill them in
three shots, instead of two. (They have 1 HP left...) The Stalker shall obviously lose in straight up engagements vs those types of units. (Since it is not intended to be a pure combat unit.) Sometimes there is a thin line between being useless and being OP. Hopefully will those changes push the Stalker more into the game. If bad gameplay consequences are discovered, we will ofc be willing to revert this or find another way to go.
<<<

The Roachs ability "Tunnel" now offers more potential for micro, both in combat, for movement across the map and for harassment.

Bio seems to have a hard time having early/mid game map presence vs Protoss. Part of this is because its difficult for the Marauder to get in range and deal dmg vs Dragoons. By gaining 2 extra attack range via the upgrade, the Marauder will hopefully be more useful both vs P and vs T. If the Marauder was given starting range 5, it would have same range as upgraded Dragoons while inside a Bunker. And this would very easily nullify early Dragoon pressure. Perhaps are more adjustments needed to make Bio or Mech + Bio viable in TvT and TvP later on.

Early mass Reapers with Bomb upgrade tend to be lame vs Zerg. By pushing the Bomb upgrade further up the
tech tree, it will now come into play a bit later. We were torn between reintroducing the Factory requirement for it, or give the Engineering bay a try. We decided to opt for the latter solution to see how it works out.


Future work:
+ Show Spoiler +

- Ghost will get a modified version of Shock and a "new" spell that is almost completed in the editor.

- Protoss air units will get some improvements.

- Calldown SCV causes two dilemmas:
1) Easy to abuse vs enemy Tanks
2) Easy to take far away island bases

We will look at solutions for this, and it will probably not be too hard to solve.


- The Baneling is a heated topic in this thread. We have read lots of suggestions about it. We will evaluate and look into what might be possible ways to design it, without adding too much confusion to players.

- As has been mentioned before, macro mechanics are a constant thing to keep an eye on. Perhaps will some form of modified macro mechanics come later, that both makes them feel more unique and clean, and if needed, better balanced.

- One large dilemma has always been Bio vs Mech in TvT and TvP. Bio was basically unplayable in BW (except vs Zerg or for early pushes) and it would be nice if Bio or Bio + Mech became a viable way to play vs P and T. (Without feeling as the inferior choice to pure mech.) The Marauder was added into the game as the "easy" solution, as a way to make Bio more durable in combats and able to better survive vs Reaver, Storm etc.

Bioplay must offer enough unique advantages for the player, compared to going mechplay. Perhaps can a better designed and stronger Ghost help with this. Maybe is there room for an even better version of Matrix, or second spell at the Medic. Reapers might need to be redesigned in some way so it becomes truly useful vs T and P. Maybe the Marauder is not needed at all, in case some kind of Combat shield vs splash dmg is introduced for the Marine. All of this is just lose speculations. But still its an area that I think needs to be looked into more.

- Dark Swarm will be reworked so splash attacks work similar to how they did in BW.
Decemberscalm explains it here:



I just need to get it to work properly. >.<

Wow, what a great patch, I pretty much like everything and I am really looking forward to your future works. Very nice, I am looking forward to see more Roaches, since I think that they have great potential and I think that they will get even better now for harassment and a little bit worse for engagements.
"I've been to hell and back, and back to hell…and back. This time, I've brought Hell back with me."
Fishgle
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2174 Posts
February 15 2014 22:42 GMT
#3752
If SCV calldown proves to be a problem, here's a simple solution: SCV calldown can only be used within ~6 range of a friendly ground unit or structure.
aka ChillyGonzalo / GnozL
404AlphaSquad
Profile Joined October 2011
839 Posts
February 15 2014 22:48 GMT
#3753
On February 16 2014 06:54 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2014 01:25 Kabel wrote:
Patch

Bug fixes:
+ Show Spoiler +
- Spider mines no longer attack Larvas or other Spider mines.
- Null wards no longer attack Larvas, Eggs or Spider mines.
- Scourges now provide points in the score screen.
- And a lot more...


Balance changes:
+ Show Spoiler +

- Roach Tunnel ability cooldown reduced from 12 sec to 6 sec. Duration remains at 4 sec. Roaches now take full dmg from enemy units while burrowed.

- Stalker dmg increased from 7 to 8. (Still deals +50% vs light)
- Stalker shield increased from 40 to 60.
- Blink cooldown reduced from 12 to 9 seconds.
- Stalker armor changed from Armored to Medium

- Marauder starting speed increased from 1.97 to 2.07 (Same as Marines)
- Barrel stabilizer upgrade now increases Marauders attack range by 2. (Marines still get +1 range)

- Elite Reaper training now requires Engineering bay.
- Elite Reaper training BT reduced from 186 sec to 120 sec.
- Reaper Bombs dmg changed from 60+20 vs structure, to 80 vs all. (Allows them to 2-shot Tanks.)

- Flying Viking attack dmg increased from 2x8 dmg to 2x10 dmg.
- Flying Viking splash dmg reduced from 25% to 20%. (Still maintains the same splash DPS)
- Flying Viking turn rate increased so it is more agile.

- Recall can teleport four more units, up to a maximum of 20 units.


Explanation:
+ Show Spoiler +
The Stalker intends to be a fragile, highly mobile skirmish unit, capable of harassment and damage support.
It is currently a very narrow unit who sees useful play in rare situations: in PvZ vs Mutas, and sometimes in lategame TvP. We would like to make it more meaningful in other stages of the game, preferably in all match-ups.

>>>+ Show Spoiler +
- The change to damage makes the Stalker slightly better vs more types of units.

- Shorter Blink cooldown allows more micro - get in and out of bases easier, catch enemy units, abuse terrain, more blink micro in combat etc.

- Having Medium as armor class makes the Stalker less hard countered by units who deal explosive damage, such as
Dragoons or Hydralisks. This in combination with the buff to shield by 20, makes sieged Siege Tanks kill them in
three shots, instead of two. (They have 1 HP left...) The Stalker shall obviously lose in straight up engagements vs those types of units. (Since it is not intended to be a pure combat unit.) Sometimes there is a thin line between being useless and being OP. Hopefully will those changes push the Stalker more into the game. If bad gameplay consequences are discovered, we will ofc be willing to revert this or find another way to go.
<<<

The Roachs ability "Tunnel" now offers more potential for micro, both in combat, for movement across the map and for harassment.

Bio seems to have a hard time having early/mid game map presence vs Protoss. Part of this is because its difficult for the Marauder to get in range and deal dmg vs Dragoons. By gaining 2 extra attack range via the upgrade, the Marauder will hopefully be more useful both vs P and vs T. If the Marauder was given starting range 5, it would have same range as upgraded Dragoons while inside a Bunker. And this would very easily nullify early Dragoon pressure. Perhaps are more adjustments needed to make Bio or Mech + Bio viable in TvT and TvP later on.

Early mass Reapers with Bomb upgrade tend to be lame vs Zerg. By pushing the Bomb upgrade further up the
tech tree, it will now come into play a bit later. We were torn between reintroducing the Factory requirement for it, or give the Engineering bay a try. We decided to opt for the latter solution to see how it works out.


Future work:
+ Show Spoiler +

- Ghost will get a modified version of Shock and a "new" spell that is almost completed in the editor.

- Protoss air units will get some improvements.

- Calldown SCV causes two dilemmas:
1) Easy to abuse vs enemy Tanks
2) Easy to take far away island bases

We will look at solutions for this, and it will probably not be too hard to solve.


- The Baneling is a heated topic in this thread. We have read lots of suggestions about it. We will evaluate and look into what might be possible ways to design it, without adding too much confusion to players.

- As has been mentioned before, macro mechanics are a constant thing to keep an eye on. Perhaps will some form of modified macro mechanics come later, that both makes them feel more unique and clean, and if needed, better balanced.

- One large dilemma has always been Bio vs Mech in TvT and TvP. Bio was basically unplayable in BW (except vs Zerg or for early pushes) and it would be nice if Bio or Bio + Mech became a viable way to play vs P and T. (Without feeling as the inferior choice to pure mech.) The Marauder was added into the game as the "easy" solution, as a way to make Bio more durable in combats and able to better survive vs Reaver, Storm etc.

Bioplay must offer enough unique advantages for the player, compared to going mechplay. Perhaps can a better designed and stronger Ghost help with this. Maybe is there room for an even better version of Matrix, or second spell at the Medic. Reapers might need to be redesigned in some way so it becomes truly useful vs T and P. Maybe the Marauder is not needed at all, in case some kind of Combat shield vs splash dmg is introduced for the Marine. All of this is just lose speculations. But still its an area that I think needs to be looked into more.

- Dark Swarm will be reworked so splash attacks work similar to how they did in BW.
Decemberscalm explains it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvnSDmeL-sQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=261

I just need to get it to work properly. >.<

Wow, what a great patch, I pretty much like everything and I am really looking forward to your future works. Very nice, I am looking forward to see more Roaches, since I think that they have great potential and I think that they will get even better now for harassment and a little bit worse for engagements.


They will bee good at picking of retreating units too :D
aka Kalevi
404AlphaSquad
Profile Joined October 2011
839 Posts
February 15 2014 22:49 GMT
#3754
On February 16 2014 07:42 Fishgle wrote:
If SCV calldown proves to be a problem, here's a simple solution: SCV calldown can only be used within ~6 range of a friendly ground unit or structure.


thats too complicated for me -.- Keep it as it is.
and for island expos, simply put in rocks.
aka Kalevi
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-15 22:51:13
February 15 2014 22:50 GMT
#3755
On February 16 2014 07:42 Fishgle wrote:
If SCV calldown proves to be a problem, here's a simple solution: SCV calldown can only be used within ~6 range of a friendly ground unit or structure.

It's unfortunate that the ability is becoming unintuitive to use though. You can't simply create functional fixes for every issue with some game mechanic, that leaves you with a game that's a mess of difficult to remember rules, which turns play away from logical intuition towards knowledge of game exploits.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
404AlphaSquad
Profile Joined October 2011
839 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-15 22:57:13
February 15 2014 22:56 GMT
#3756
On February 16 2014 07:50 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2014 07:42 Fishgle wrote:
If SCV calldown proves to be a problem, here's a simple solution: SCV calldown can only be used within ~6 range of a friendly ground unit or structure.

It's unfortunate that the ability is becoming unintuitive to use though. You can't simply create functional fixes for every issue with some game mechanic, that leaves you with a game that's a mess of difficult to remember rules, which turns play away from logical intuition towards knowledge of game exploits.

I agree. Especially since this game already has a lot of complicated rules like: Nerf jammer not working as good on lurkers, the damage system is complicated to a lot of new players, that fucked up pathing atm, alot of overlapping upgrades having more effects on one or more units.
aka Kalevi
Piy
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Scotland3152 Posts
February 15 2014 22:59 GMT
#3757
Surely the simplest fix is that scv calldown can only be cast on mineral patches and friendly units.
My. Copy. Is. Here.
404AlphaSquad
Profile Joined October 2011
839 Posts
February 15 2014 23:02 GMT
#3758
On February 16 2014 07:59 Piy wrote:
Surely the simplest fix is that scv calldown can only be cast on mineral patches and friendly units.

why does scv calldown on tanks is a problem anyway ? It prevents stalemates and should be a viable option in tvt imo.
aka Kalevi
Jermman
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada174 Posts
February 15 2014 23:03 GMT
#3759
I think the pathing is great, as in the way balls of marines space out, etc. Uses more space on the map like bw Imo.
Terran/Random Player
Piy
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Scotland3152 Posts
February 15 2014 23:03 GMT
#3760
On February 16 2014 08:02 404AlphaSquad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2014 07:59 Piy wrote:
Surely the simplest fix is that scv calldown can only be cast on mineral patches and friendly units.

why does scv calldown on tanks is a problem anyway ? It prevents stalemates and should be a viable option in tvt imo.


I've not had any issues with it personally. People seem to want it nerfed rather than playing around it.
My. Copy. Is. Here.
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