EPTStarbow - Page 125
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JonIrenicus
Italy602 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9409 Posts
On January 25 2014 03:07 PredY wrote: some changes seem pointless to me, like the mech upgrades + irradiate change. "we don’t find it to be particularly interesting gameplay" sounds like blizzard to me. dont know why you dont focus on bug fixes only and let people figure stuff out, you patch every other day Well Imagine this scenario: There are 4 lurkers outside dropped in a location or simply containg you. Prepatch you would hold down R and left click 4 times --> All lurkers will die regardless of the skill level of the zerg player. There is little room for countermicro and its very easy to execute. Now postpatch, however, your more incentived to attempt to kill them with siege tanks or spread out your units to flank. Something that is mechanically harder. Further, there is countermicro opportunity for the zerg player. He can go back with the Lurkers to creep and regenerate them or get the Queen to tranfuse them. This is also mechanically harder for the zerg player to do that. Prepatch everything was (almost) always decided beforehand. In terms of gameplay action, we think the shared upgrades add more variation to gameplay. IMO Blizzards attempt at it doesn't really hit the core issue w/ Mech because tanks + hellions are simply underpowered in Sc2. Mech in Sbow though is pretty strong, but we see an issue with the fact that there is little reason to add in Banshee and Vikings in the later game since they almost always will lack behind in upgrades. Both Banshee's and Vikings have low damage per shot, which means they are really week when opponents hits good armor upgrades. Rather, you late game TvZ have lots of Irradiates and doesn't really need Vikings therefore. So we see three advantages with this change; 1) More uncertainty related to the outcome of small skirmishes. 2) Mechanically harder 3) More diverse unit compositions in the later game. I know that the map is yours to make and to tweak, but you are acting like David kim, and sometimes watching your changes it seems like you are completely missing the point <.< What point are we missing? Its our opinion that watching "R" being clicked five times on 5 Lurkers isn't particularly interesting gameplay. We want to encourage players to use other types of units to batlte them - does that imply we are missing the point? | ||
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Killcani
Sweden448 Posts
On January 25 2014 04:09 Hider wrote: What point are we missing? Its our opinion that watching "R" being clicked five times on 5 Lurkers isn't particularly interesting gameplay. We want to encourage players to use other types of units to batlte them - does that imply we are missing the point? We've already given you the answer to this problem several times in this thread its just sad that your ignoring it  .Obviously I am talking about removing smartcast. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9409 Posts
On January 25 2014 04:14 Killcani wrote: We've already given you the answer to this problem several times in this thread its just sad that your ignoring it .Obviously I am talking about removing smartcast. Well I think we can design spells in a different way to take into account smartcast. But ofc our solutions aren't gonna make everybody happy. You may have noticed that Kabel previously one time mentioned the idea of adding smartcas to a testmap. He was quickly "spammed" with a lot of comments that he absolutely shouldn't do it (it makes the entrance barrier for nonBW players too high). So we are not ignoring it, but we are trying to create a middleground, where smartcast-abilities are relatively strong and relatively hard to use. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On January 25 2014 04:09 Hider wrote: Its our opinion that watching "R" being clicked five times on 5 Lurkers isn't particularly interesting gameplay. We want to encourage players to use other types of units to batlte them - does that imply we are missing the point? Yeah, but isn't that the point of irradiate? You click on a unit and it slowly kills them. Maybe it is one of the following three things: the ability is too easy to use (smartcast, cast range, science vessel health), there is no counterplay (ways to heal / dispel / use units with the debuff, ways to limit science vessel numbers), the ability is too cost effective (cost of the unit, damage, mana cost). Personally I don't like nerfing the ability so that it doesn't even counter mutalisks. :o | ||
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Killcani
Sweden448 Posts
On January 25 2014 04:18 Hider wrote: Well I think we can design spells in a different way to take into account smartcast. But ofc our solutions aren't gonna make everybody happy. You may have noticed that Kabel previously one time mentioned the idea of adding smartcas to a testmap. He was quickly "spammed" with a lot of comments that he absolutely shouldn't do it (it makes the entrance barrier for nonBW players too high). So we are not ignoring it, but we are trying to create a middleground, where smartcast-abilities are relatively strong and relatively hard to use. You're middle ground way of nerfing all the spells will just create a duller gameplay and viewing experience tho. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9409 Posts
On January 25 2014 04:23 Grumbels wrote: Yeah, but isn't that the point of irradiate? You click on a unit and it slowly kills them. Maybe it is one of the following three things: the ability is too easy to use (smartcast, cast range, science vessel health), there is no counterplay (ways to heal / dispel / use units with the debuff, ways to limit science vessel numbers), the ability is too cost effective (cost of the unit, damage, mana cost). Personally I don't like nerfing the ability so that it doesn't even counter mutalisks. :o It does "counter" Mutalisk clumps though. Its DPS against them is maintained. Further, it still one-shot kills Defilers. But yes, admittely, we do not think every single TvZ should have Science Vessels in it. We like to see some games with Vikings/banshee support instead. Other games with Pure Mech. Some games with bio + lots of dropship play and other games with bio + tank. The issue we had with SV's (besides always killing Lurkers which was boring) was that it was simply too dominant. You always wanted to get it from the mid/late game, regardless of whether you went bio or mech. I hope this change will add new dynamics to the matchup. | ||
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CannonsNCarriers
United States638 Posts
Maybe 60 energy? This would mean more clicks for less damage but at least I can put it on a few more things. | ||
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Killcani
Sweden448 Posts
On January 25 2014 04:28 Hider wrote: It does "counter" Mutalisk clumps though. Its DPS against them is maintained. Further, it still one-shot kills Defilers. But yes, admittely, we do not think every single TvZ should have Science Vessels in it. We like to see some games with Vikings/banshee support instead. Other games with Pure Mech. Some games with bio + lots of dropship play and other games with bio + tank. The issue we had with SV's (besides always killing Lurkers which was boring) was that it was simply too dominant. You always wanted to get it from the mid/late game, regardless of whether you went bio or mech. I hope this change will add new dynamics to the matchup. Could' you not have have worked on muta clumping instead? If they clump less on their own it would be an indirect nerf to SVs as it would be easier to snipe them and take less irriadiate dmg. This would create a more dynamic micro battle between the zerg and terran player. | ||
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GamanNo
Sweden63 Posts
Why are people saying this is a nerf to irradiate when it comes to mutalisks and defilers? | ||
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Killcani
Sweden448 Posts
On January 25 2014 04:46 GamanNo wrote: Hm, mutalisks have 120 hp and defilers 80 hp. Irradiate will deal 120 damage during 20 seconds (same dps as before). Why are people saying this is a nerf to irradiate when it comes to mutalisks and defilers? Zerg units constantly regenerate health that's why. | ||
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GamanNo
Sweden63 Posts
On January 25 2014 04:48 Killcani wrote: Zerg units constantly regenerate health that's why. But does it really take more than 20 seconds for people to separate irradiated mutas from the rest? It doesn't seem like this will make any difference in my games at least. | ||
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cptjibberjabber
Netherlands87 Posts
On January 25 2014 04:52 GamanNo wrote: But does it really take more than 20 seconds for people to separate irradiated mutas from the rest? It doesn't seem like this will make any difference in my games at least. I usually get the irradiated muta out in 3 or so seconds. not 20 at all. | ||
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itsMAHVELbaybee
292 Posts
You could adjust it to be like seeker missile, but that comes with tons of problems that it could be dodged easily, even by slow units, but adjusting the spell to be aimed instead of acting like SC2 feedback might be something to consider. | ||
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Ovni
89 Posts
On January 25 2014 03:07 PredY wrote: some changes seem pointless to me, like the mech upgrades + irradiate change. "we don’t find it to be particularly interesting gameplay" sounds like blizzard to me. dont know why you dont focus on bug fixes only and let people figure stuff out, you patch every other day totally agree with this.. | ||
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
On January 25 2014 04:38 Killcani wrote: Could' you not have have worked on muta clumping instead? If they clump less on their own it would be an indirect nerf to SVs as it would be easier to snipe them and take less irriadiate dmg. This would create a more dynamic micro battle between the zerg and terran player. | ||
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tehredbanditt
103 Posts
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datacetone
United States1 Post
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
On January 25 2014 04:09 Hider wrote: Well Imagine this scenario: There are 4 lurkers outside dropped in a location or simply containg you. Prepatch you would hold down R and left click 4 times --> All lurkers will die regardless of the skill level of the zerg player. There is little room for countermicro and its very easy to execute. Now postpatch, however, your more incentived to attempt to kill them with siege tanks or spread out your units to flank. Something that is mechanically harder. Further, there is countermicro opportunity for the zerg player. He can go back with the Lurkers to creep and regenerate them or get the Queen to tranfuse them. This is also mechanically harder for the zerg player to do that. Prepatch everything was (almost) always decided beforehand. In terms of gameplay action, we think the shared upgrades add more variation to gameplay. IMO Blizzards attempt at it doesn't really hit the core issue w/ Mech because tanks + hellions are simply underpowered in Sc2. Mech in Sbow though is pretty strong, but we see an issue with the fact that there is little reason to add in Banshee and Vikings in the later game since they almost always will lack behind in upgrades. Both Banshee's and Vikings have low damage per shot, which means they are really week when opponents hits good armor upgrades. Rather, you late game TvZ have lots of Irradiates and doesn't really need Vikings therefore. So we see three advantages with this change; 1) More uncertainty related to the outcome of small skirmishes. 2) Mechanically harder 3) More diverse unit compositions in the later game. What point are we missing? Its our opinion that watching "R" being clicked five times on 5 Lurkers isn't particularly interesting gameplay. We want to encourage players to use other types of units to batlte them - does that imply we are missing the point? still think you try to force it instead of letting people naturally get better and use more units and micro. in the end i dont really care if irradiate kills a lurker or not, but im worried about it not killing a mutalisk. also don't try to force people using every single unit. there can be units that have specific roles only. | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
On January 25 2014 04:09 Hider wrote: What point are we missing? Its our opinion that watching "R" being clicked five times on 5 Lurkers isn't particularly interesting gameplay. We want to encourage players to use other types of units to batlte them - does that imply we are missing the point? How about instead of "encouraging" (forcing) Terrans to use other units to break out, you instead encourage Zergs to use other units to counter Sci-vessels? I mean scourge is already an option that most Zergs are just skipping over, and so are Hydralisks. | ||
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