On January 11 2014 21:10 Ammanas wrote: EDIT: Or watch this. When was the last time we had such a game in SC2? And between amateurs!
Romson is not really an amateur. He is GM player
That's not the definition of amateur or professional. If he does not get paid to play, he is an amateur, regardless of skill.
Well it is put here in context with skill (when have we seen such games between amateurs??) , so i would call him in this context a pro, especially if he is able to beat players like Jjakji.
What you saw there is still nowhere near what we would see if Innovation played vs Jaedong after a year or so. This is like the first days of WoL for Starbow.
I understand that the metagame has not developed for Starbow. But if it is so much better for everyone i would like to have prove more by a game between diamonds or platinum than by a game played by GMs who have even in Starbow much better mechanics than the average joe. That is just the thing i wanted to point out.
Well people aren't only complaining about SC2 at the plat level being boring, the complaints extend to the highest level of pro play. Ronsom is good but not even in the same league as high level Koreans. If anything, the difference between a mid level GM player and a top 30ish Korean is bigger than the difference between that mid level GM dude and a silver leaguer.
If he and Hider can put on a show like this, imagine the potential. Bringing in a bunch of diamond players wouldn't prove anything, it would just be a mediocre game. BW played by someone with 70 APM didn't look that amazing either. Your request is not reasonable.
On January 11 2014 23:27 Squat wrote: Well people aren't only complaining about SC2 at the plat level being boring, the complaints extend to the highest level of pro play. Ronsom is good but not even in the same league as high level Koreans. If anything, the difference between a mid level GM player and a top 30ish Korean is bigger than the difference between that mid level GM dude and a silver leaguer.
If he and Hider can put on a show like this, imagine the potential. Bringing in a bunch of diamond players wouldn't prove anything, it would just be a mediocre game. BW played by someone with 70 APM didn't look that amazing either. Your request is not reasonable.
I don't care in this regard about if it is fun to watch. I know people don't watch plat or diamond games. But if it is actually fun to play for them too. Terrans are dying ou left and right on ladderbecause it is not fun to play anymore at least vs P
On January 11 2014 22:19 Sapphire.lux wrote: Those Starbow games looked so cool! Looks like we can reduce the deathball effect after all.
EDIT: and the Vultures, OMG. Who ever thought that replacing them with the Hellion is a good idea is a nut. Such a cool unit
I said this before, but I don't believe that there is a design-issue with the Hellion. Its line-splash damage is pretty cool, but its just so underpowered in the mid/late game. Unlike the Vulture which is far superior at at lower cost. That's IMO the main reason why mech is a lot more awesome in BW/SBOW than in Sc2 (becuase you have a mobile presense w/ mech).
On January 11 2014 23:27 Squat wrote: Well people aren't only complaining about SC2 at the plat level being boring, the complaints extend to the highest level of pro play. Ronsom is good but not even in the same league as high level Koreans. If anything, the difference between a mid level GM player and a top 30ish Korean is bigger than the difference between that mid level GM dude and a silver leaguer.
If he and Hider can put on a show like this, imagine the potential. Bringing in a bunch of diamond players wouldn't prove anything, it would just be a mediocre game. BW played by someone with 70 APM didn't look that amazing either. Your request is not reasonable.
I don't care in this regard about if it is fun to watch. I know people don't watch plat or diamond games. But if it is actually fun to play for them too. Terrans are dying ou left and right on ladderbecause it is not fun to play anymore at least vs P.
That comes later. First it has to be playtested by people who are actually good enough to see what works, what is broken, what is stupid. You cannot balance around plat league. If TB can convince the Axiom guys to play a few games, or just one game per week or something that would be extremely helpful.
I find that if you just try to make the game deep and fun to watch, it will attract players even if it's hard. Just try to make it good, don't worry about trying to appeal to casuals, esports, perfect balance or any of that bullshit. If the foundation of the game is solid enough, all those things will come on their own. Very few people played ranked 1v1 in BW, they played teamgames and customs, because the game was just really good, even though it was hard.
This is something that I think tainted SC2 from day 1, releasing a game designed to be a super competitive esports first and a good game second is not a good idea.
what we learn here ? blizzard never wrong and sc2 the most balanced game in the universe, no matter what all the players/pro community players say, blizzard know better that EVERYONE, they prove it, everytime,with data we got no info or can know anything about and they pick the data they want where they want for create fact about the PERFECT BALANCE OF SC2.
removed sc2 from my computer..... im done with this bullshit, for me this was more this stupid balance team ( david kim included ) who killed the game for me....
blizzard thinks they are to perfect for admit error or anything.... any good dev team would have make sc2 the perfect rts and im sad for that.
Balance is not the issue. Not being forced to play bio is.
It is extremely easy to improve mech without making bio too strong. Give tanks one of the following a) Higher bonus damage vs armoured or b) Bonus damage vs shields or c) More damage per attack upgrade (if you are afraid of making 1-1- too strong).
On January 11 2014 22:19 Sapphire.lux wrote: Those Starbow games looked so cool! Looks like we can reduce the deathball effect after all.
EDIT: and the Vultures, OMG. Who ever thought that replacing them with the Hellion is a good idea is a nut. Such a cool unit
I said this before, but I don't believe that there is a design-issue with the Hellion. Its line-splash damage is pretty cool, but its just so underpowered in the mid/late game. Unlike the Vulture which is far superior at at lower cost. That's IMO the main reason why mech is a lot more awesome in BW/SBOW than in Sc2 (becuase you have a mobile presense w/ mech).
I guess the Helbat was meant to fix some of that weakness in the late game? The Vulture looked not just stronger though, but made the game fun with its speed and mine placement/ mine clearing by the opponent throughout the game.
On January 11 2014 22:19 Sapphire.lux wrote: Those Starbow games looked so cool! Looks like we can reduce the deathball effect after all.
EDIT: and the Vultures, OMG. Who ever thought that replacing them with the Hellion is a good idea is a nut. Such a cool unit
I said this before, but I don't believe that there is a design-issue with the Hellion. Its line-splash damage is pretty cool, but its just so underpowered in the mid/late game. Unlike the Vulture which is far superior at at lower cost. That's IMO the main reason why mech is a lot more awesome in BW/SBOW than in Sc2 (becuase you have a mobile presense w/ mech).
I guess the Helbat was meant to fix some of that weakness in the late game? The Vulture looked not just stronger though, but made the game fun with its speed and mine placement/ mine clearing by the opponent throughout the game.
Faster transformation animation, like way faster. That unit would be awesome if you could switch between forms at a reasonable speed.
On January 11 2014 22:19 Sapphire.lux wrote: Those Starbow games looked so cool! Looks like we can reduce the deathball effect after all.
EDIT: and the Vultures, OMG. Who ever thought that replacing them with the Hellion is a good idea is a nut. Such a cool unit
I said this before, but I don't believe that there is a design-issue with the Hellion. Its line-splash damage is pretty cool, but its just so underpowered in the mid/late game. Unlike the Vulture which is far superior at at lower cost. That's IMO the main reason why mech is a lot more awesome in BW/SBOW than in Sc2 (becuase you have a mobile presense w/ mech).
I guess the Helbat was meant to fix some of that weakness in the late game? The Vulture looked not just stronger though, but made the game fun with its speed and mine placement/ mine clearing by the opponent throughout the game.
Vulture and Hellions are microable. Hellbats really aren't. Fuck the hellbat and give the Hellion a gigantic buff (aka reduce cost to 75 minerals with lower damage vs light).
This guy needs to be replaced if there is any salvaging left to be done in sc2. Such a tunnel visioned individual. Guess when the money's in the bank, you don't have to care as much.. sad reality of most blizz games.
On January 11 2014 12:44 Azelja wrote: I really don't get why they still post the winratios of any league other than GM or high profile tournaments.
Of course they are going to be close to 50%, that's how you designed the ladder, so that everyone aside from the top dogs have an even win/loss ratio! That doesn't tell us anything about balance o_O What the hell?!
Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what.
It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"?
Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time.
Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous...
David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago?
And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games...
So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass.
So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? And yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation.
When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game.
On January 11 2014 12:44 Azelja wrote: I really don't get why they still post the winratios of any league other than GM or high profile tournaments.
Of course they are going to be close to 50%, that's how you designed the ladder, so that everyone aside from the top dogs have an even win/loss ratio! That doesn't tell us anything about balance o_O What the hell?!
Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what.
It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"?
Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time.
Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous...
David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago?
And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games...
So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass.
So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? And yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation.
When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game.
If they do a patch that is not 100% justfiable with broken winrates at the prolevel, the outcry is even louder than what we hear now.
On January 11 2014 12:44 Azelja wrote: I really don't get why they still post the winratios of any league other than GM or high profile tournaments.
Of course they are going to be close to 50%, that's how you designed the ladder, so that everyone aside from the top dogs have an even win/loss ratio! That doesn't tell us anything about balance o_O What the hell?!
Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what.
It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"?
Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time.
Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous...
David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago?
And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games...
So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass.
So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? And yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation.
When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game.
Does Ensemble Studios run a game that is the livelihood of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of individuals? Do you understand the significance of potentially breaking the game and sending win rates plummeting for one race? Do you understand that if some players suddenly became unable to win anything, online cups or premier tournaments, they would have to retire to be able to make a living?
On January 11 2014 12:44 Azelja wrote: I really don't get why they still post the winratios of any league other than GM or high profile tournaments.
Of course they are going to be close to 50%, that's how you designed the ladder, so that everyone aside from the top dogs have an even win/loss ratio! That doesn't tell us anything about balance o_O What the hell?!
Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what.
It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"?
Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time.
Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous...
David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago?
And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games...
So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass.
So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? And yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation.
When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game.
LoL - "They don't type the words I like, so they don't play the game. Period. Its fact now because the word don't say exactly what I want them too."
On January 11 2014 12:44 Azelja wrote: I really don't get why they still post the winratios of any league other than GM or high profile tournaments.
Of course they are going to be close to 50%, that's how you designed the ladder, so that everyone aside from the top dogs have an even win/loss ratio! That doesn't tell us anything about balance o_O What the hell?!
Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what.
It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"?
Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time.
Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous...
David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago?
And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games...
So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass.
So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? And yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation.
When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game.
Does Ensemble Studios run a game that is the livelihood of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of individuals? Do you understand the significance of potentially breaking the game and sending win rates plummeting for one race? Do you understand that if some players suddenly became unable to win anything, online cups or premier tournaments, they would have to retire to be able to make a living?
Well they made the new Age of Empires III, that hot new RTS that took the world by storm.
Ugh, AOE 3 is probably the shittiest sequel to a good game I have ever seen. That game is like pouring bleach over your synapses. They took every lesson from AOE 2 and decided to not learn a single one.
I don't doubt that DK plays the game, he might even be good at it. It's the conclusions he's drawing from playing the game that are in question. Honestly, if you start with balance and then look for fun, your game will likely be shit. You have to go at it the other way around.
EPT
