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On January 10 2014 06:26 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 05:54 FiWiFaKi wrote:On January 10 2014 05:51 TotalBiscuit wrote:On January 10 2014 05:49 Plansix wrote:On January 10 2014 05:44 TotalBiscuit wrote:
You know what I love? People who have never spent a dime improving the scene criticizing the passion of people who have. How brave of you, how noble. No risk, no consequences and no balls.
Fuck those kind of people. But TB, they are so horrible misinformed it's funny. Just think what it is like to wake up every day and be that dumb. It's almost tragic if they weren't such assholes. And most of us are just through trying to inform them because we get witchhunted by the community when we do, so hey. I think the problem is that forums are just really really good at finding the vocal minority. Even if you have a thread of 10 pages about people complaining about you, that's likely 100 people that are not happy with what you do, 50 saying good things, and 50 trying to tell the 100 that they are wrong. Then the rest of the tens of thousands are likely pretty satisfied. I guess it's just an interesting dynamic, since those few negative people can really turn off people from a tournament, or really make someone start disliking a certain group, because people who are not very informed read the comment and make their opinion. Hard to really know what to do ... Anyone who's done statistical work knows that it's crucial to get opinions from people whether they want to give them or not rather than just relying on people opt-ing in. And that's because people with strong-feelings are much, much more likely to opt-in. This isn't just pop-psychology, but something study after study has proven how voluntary feedback can lead to skewed results. So ya, forums aren't just good at finding the vocal minority, they basically *are* the vocal minority. Now, I'm not sure if there's a reason or bias towards unhappy/negativity when it comes to having strong feelings since the key word is 'strong' feelings. Edit: Of course forums aren't exactly surveys, but similar concept I think for people who decide to post / those who lurk.
Yeah, that's pretty much the case. Most threads like this are filled with wannabe armchair businessmen that don't have any idea what is going on, pretending that they do. That would be fine if they didn't also have the audacity to attack people that actually do know their shit. The PR friendly thing to say in that situation is "we are so happy to see the community so passionate about this subject!". The realtalk thing to say is "fuck me this is dumb"
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On January 10 2014 03:36 MLG_Adam wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 03:26 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Coma Devil, please please don't type "you" or "your", as "u" and "ur" on Teamliquid... Especially to Adam. I know it's not in my authority to say that, but it really irks me and makes the site appear less professional.
As for this announcement, I think it is very good news. I am quite shocked that people say that it'd be okay if you cut back support for Starcraft, but still supported it. I don't think MLG has time to host small events that attract very few viewers with prize pools of a few hundred dollars. I think better communication would have been very good, and it has been addressed already.
People seem to dislike MLG because it wants to make money, and that is obviously very silly. The truth is, that almost no SC2 events actually earn a worthwhile rate or return, and so, usually the people who run the events run them at a loss, or from support of Blizzard. This is the case with Shoutcraft, WCS, Redbull, etc... The only companies that I feel that actually turn a profit are likely ESL and Dreamhack, and especially Dreamhack feel like community events and not tournaments. Dreamhack is ran for the players, and well ESL I don't think is handled by the smartest people.
Now MLG, they are really cool guys. They are passionate gamers, and they are professionals, they are smart people, they need to be able to earn a living with what they do. The events they put out are some of the best in esports, it's clear that the skills they possess surpass the producers of other content. If a game becomes large enough, and the audience for it is right, MLG will be one of the first companies that will be able to turn a profit on it, because it's skilled at what they do and they know how to bring the viewers in.
I am quite curious how this event will go, because truthfully, this event will likely bring in 20k-60k concurrent viewers which with that many viewers will be a pretty breakeven investment for the effort. When I looked through the breakdown of cost for the Shoutcraft, it did not break even, but this event will have a slightly smaller prize pool, a few more viewers, and also I think MLG has pretty sponsor affiliations to bring in more revenue, but still, I don't see anything huge happening.
The problem is see, is if MLG tries to expand this. As someone who has been following SC2, Dota, Broodwar, and have been visiting this site since 2007, there is in zero possibility this event can be expanded to say a 25k prize pool 2-3 day live event. Do we remember back in 2010 and 2011 when MLG was getting 100k-150k concurrent viewers for SC2 with 25k prize pools? That was having the best players, pretty much the most anticipated events in SC2, and the success of it is still quite questionable. Now the WCS NA finals brought in like 40k viewers. And WCS Finals brought in 80k or so. This is a lot less than the concurrents that MLG was bringing in before.
So my question for you MLGAdam, is what direction are you guys trying to take with this? Do you believe that these live 2-3 day live events are viable with these many viewers? In my eyes it doesn't make much sense to go offline unless the prize pool exceeds $10,000 or so. Do you believe events of these magnitude are sustainable in the long-term? If not, do you plan to hold smaller 2k-5k online events, or is that something too small for the scale you guys work at? Thank you!
Sorry if my post hopped around a lot, there is really a lot to discuss what's happening and I didn't want to make a really long comment. For starters we ended 2013 with 2 quarters of profitability, a milestone. This is all due to utilizing our own player. Second, there will be large LANs for SC2 in North America this year. I have already announced a large one in Anaheim June 20-22 and I have another one I'm planning prior (not a Pro Circuit event, but something else...). With the use of our player we are able to control our product and monetize it better. As a content creator that spends millions of dollars annually to actually produce content, it made no business sense to let someone else distribute it and monetize it. Even with modest #s SC2 will be a profitable endeavor. I have big plans and they will be done hand in hand with practical common sense and community interaction.
This post makes me so excited. Thanks Adam! :D
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On January 10 2014 06:26 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 05:54 FiWiFaKi wrote:On January 10 2014 05:51 TotalBiscuit wrote:On January 10 2014 05:49 Plansix wrote:On January 10 2014 05:44 TotalBiscuit wrote:
You know what I love? People who have never spent a dime improving the scene criticizing the passion of people who have. How brave of you, how noble. No risk, no consequences and no balls.
Fuck those kind of people. But TB, they are so horrible misinformed it's funny. Just think what it is like to wake up every day and be that dumb. It's almost tragic if they weren't such assholes. And most of us are just through trying to inform them because we get witchhunted by the community when we do, so hey. I think the problem is that forums are just really really good at finding the vocal minority. Even if you have a thread of 10 pages about people complaining about you, that's likely 100 people that are not happy with what you do, 50 saying good things, and 50 trying to tell the 100 that they are wrong. Then the rest of the tens of thousands are likely pretty satisfied. I guess it's just an interesting dynamic, since those few negative people can really turn off people from a tournament, or really make someone start disliking a certain group, because people who are not very informed read the comment and make their opinion. Hard to really know what to do ... Anyone who's done statistical work knows that it's crucial to get opinions from people whether they want to give them or not rather than just relying on people opt-ing in. And that's because people with strong-feelings are much, much more likely to opt-in. This isn't just pop-psychology, but something study after study has proven how voluntary feedback can lead to skewed results. So ya, forums aren't just good at finding the vocal minority, they basically *are* the vocal minority. Now, I'm not sure if there's a reason or bias towards unhappy/negativity when it comes to having strong feelings since the key word is 'strong' feelings. Edit: Of course forums aren't exactly surveys, but similar concept I think for people who decide to post / those who lurk.
What you're you totally missing (and this is the reason Republic's exist) is a review of what is going on. You're not actually assessing the situation, to see if what is said is right or wrong. You're just assuming the vocal minority is wrong since they are the minority. That is a logical fallacy.
See, if you interviewed people 1000 years ago and asked if the world was flat, most (if not all) would say it was. People didn't actually know better and that doesn't mean they are right, in fact, Pythagoras was. So use your brain and actually think about the points being made. The fact is, MLG has done some crappy stuff in the past, regardless of how many people think so or not. They even admitted it and apologized. Are we beyond that? I sure hope so, but let's not forget the past and gloss it over and pretend they are something they are not.
I'm not even sure what TotalBiscuit is referencing. I made my points, and he said that I haven't spent a dime on E-Sports (which is untrue, and I find it funny he accuses of me of reaching and assuming when he is doing the same thing) and therefore my points must be wrong. That is another logical fallacy, my points are wrong or right regardless of whether I spend billions or nothing on E-Sports. But he made (probably because he can't) no actual attempt to argue, he came here thinking that him being him means everyone would listen.
Which is (you guessed it!) another logical fallacy, authority.... just become someone holds some position, doesn't automatically make them right.
They actually have to prove it. I'm all for looking to the future, but when this thread turned into a "Told ya so, MLG has always been so awesome, you were wrong to criticize them," it needed correction.
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On January 10 2014 08:21 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 06:26 Wuster wrote:On January 10 2014 05:54 FiWiFaKi wrote:On January 10 2014 05:51 TotalBiscuit wrote:On January 10 2014 05:49 Plansix wrote:On January 10 2014 05:44 TotalBiscuit wrote:
You know what I love? People who have never spent a dime improving the scene criticizing the passion of people who have. How brave of you, how noble. No risk, no consequences and no balls.
Fuck those kind of people. But TB, they are so horrible misinformed it's funny. Just think what it is like to wake up every day and be that dumb. It's almost tragic if they weren't such assholes. And most of us are just through trying to inform them because we get witchhunted by the community when we do, so hey. I think the problem is that forums are just really really good at finding the vocal minority. Even if you have a thread of 10 pages about people complaining about you, that's likely 100 people that are not happy with what you do, 50 saying good things, and 50 trying to tell the 100 that they are wrong. Then the rest of the tens of thousands are likely pretty satisfied. I guess it's just an interesting dynamic, since those few negative people can really turn off people from a tournament, or really make someone start disliking a certain group, because people who are not very informed read the comment and make their opinion. Hard to really know what to do ... Anyone who's done statistical work knows that it's crucial to get opinions from people whether they want to give them or not rather than just relying on people opt-ing in. And that's because people with strong-feelings are much, much more likely to opt-in. This isn't just pop-psychology, but something study after study has proven how voluntary feedback can lead to skewed results. So ya, forums aren't just good at finding the vocal minority, they basically *are* the vocal minority. Now, I'm not sure if there's a reason or bias towards unhappy/negativity when it comes to having strong feelings since the key word is 'strong' feelings. Edit: Of course forums aren't exactly surveys, but similar concept I think for people who decide to post / those who lurk. What you're you totally missing (and this is the reason Republic's exist) is a review of what is going on. You're not actually assessing the situation, to see if what is said is right or wrong. You're just assuming the vocal minority is wrong. But if you interviewed people 1000 years ago and asked if the world was flat, most (if not all) would say it was. People didn't actually know better and that doesn't mean they are right. So use your brain and actually think about the points being made. The fact is, MLG has done some crappy stuff in the past, regardless of how many people think so or not. They even admitted it and apologized. Are we beyond that? I sure hope so, but let's not forget the past and gloss it over. I'm not even sure what TotalBiscuit is referencing. I made my points, and he said that I haven't spent a dime on E-Sports (which is untrue, and I find it funny he accuses of me of reaching and assuming when he is doing the same thing) and therefore my points must be wrong. That is a logical fallacy, my points are wrong or right regardless of whether I spend billions or nothing on E-Sports. But he made (probably because he can't) no actual attempt to argue, he came here thinking that him being him means everyone would listen. Which is another logical fallacy, authority....
You're heavily conflating collecting a reflective sample of a populations opinion versus determining fact, no where do I talk about fact or truth. Nor do I ever draw a conclusion on who's right or wrong.
You can indeed sample everyone in the world for any given question and find that the majority are flat out wrong.
The concept of a vocal minority is simply that, that they are a minority position that attracts the most attention to their point.
Pollsters have to work hard to include disinterested people because it's been proven that those with strongly held stances will respond to surveys, while most everyone else will ignore them. That sounds a lot like people who decide to log into TL to post something, which is why I made the analogy.
It has absolutely nothing to do with what's true or false, especially when most of what you're trying to promote are opinions anyways (not all) and I was really only replying to FiWiFaKi's point about vocal minorities and forums (also no idea what Republics have to do with anything).
Edit: Oh, you mean the Electoral system being designed so that majority rule doesn't trample minority interests? I guess the same concept applies to Republicanism too (not that it strictly has to of course, but does in the US).
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On January 10 2014 08:29 Wuster wrote:
...especially when most of what you're trying to promote are opinions anyways (not all)...
This is obviously the contentious line. Is it an opinion that MLG created the Silver and Gold Membership advertising it as giving access to Pro Circuit HQ Streams? It is an opinion they they changed their product after selling Gold Memberships?
Those are not opinions, they are facts. I held my first MLG Gold membership from July 2011 to July 2012. They decided to introduce the Pro Circuit Winter Arena on February 13, 2012. Again, the product Gold Membership stated "Access to Pro Circuit HQ Streams". The Winter Arena was advertised as a Pro Circuit event. I was not given access to it or a refund, despite being a Gold member. None of that is opinion, it how they advertised their products!
It is indeed my opinion that we should be wary of them in the future. But what logical conclusion do you reach with the facts I've stated? Really, I'd like to know.
If I sold people one year subscriptions to a newspaper, then eliminated everything but the Sunday paper six months into people's subscriptions, people expecting papers the other days of the week would be pissed. They'd demand a refund too. If you can't deliver what you said you would, you make it right. Either give a refund, or deliver the papers. MLG did neither, despite MLG_Adam stating that MLG did they best they could.
Because in the end, it isn't about just determining facts, it is about forming your own educated opinion from the facts.
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We get it guys, we have all been educated on that at one point MLG made mistakes and it is possible they will do so in the future. We really don't need to prove who believes what and its not really clear how that would happen. If you guys really want to hash it out, take it to PM.
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Oh yeah, the MLG player is something to look forward to, twitch has been unusually laggy the past few days.
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On January 10 2014 08:50 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 08:29 Wuster wrote:
...especially when most of what you're trying to promote are opinions anyways (not all)... This is obviously the contentious line. Is it an opinion that MLG created the Silver and Gold Membership advertising it as giving access to Pro Circuit HQ Streams? It is an opinion they they changed their product after selling Gold Memberships? Those are opinions, they are facts. I held my first MLG Gold membership from July 2011 to July 2012. They decided to introduce the Pro Circuit Winter Arena on February 13, 2012. Again, the product Gold Membership stated "Access to Pro Circuit HQ Streams". The Winter Arena was advertised as a Pro Circuit event. I was not given access to it or a refund, despite being a Gold member. None of that is opinion, it how they advertised their products! It is indeed my opinion that we should be wary of them in the future. But what logical conclusion do you reach with the facts I've stated? Because in the end, it isn't about just determining facts, it is about forming your own educated opinion from the facts.
As far as I remember, Gold and Silver memberships still provided complete access to everything that was advertised for all events that were promoted when purchased. The PPV Arena event(s) were added onto the schedule later in the year, and were additional content. Sure, bad communication, advertising, etc. but the fact remains that your Gold/Silver membership would have looked exactly the same with or without the Winter Arena being held.
The fact is that MLG has held every tournament that they've announced and scheduled, they've paid prize money out in a timely manner (faster than almost every other organizer), they've fulfilled all promises to teams and players (from what we've heard and seen) and even gone above-and-beyond.
If the worst we have to be "wary" about is additional tournaments being excluded from Membership purchases, the same tournaments not being held every year, and a bit of annoying shit like extended series, then that makes MLG one of the most stable and trustworthy organizations in this business.
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On January 10 2014 08:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:
As far as I remember, Gold and Silver memberships still provided complete access to everything that was advertised for all events that were promoted when purchased. The PPV Arena event(s) were added onto the schedule later in the year, and were additional content. Sure, bad communication, advertising, etc. but the fact remains that your Gold/Silver membership would have looked exactly the same with or without the Winter Arena being held.
You gotta check your facts man before you make your educated opinion. I could watch 6 of 6 Pro Circuit events with a Gold Membership (which was advertised to give "Access to HQ Pro Circuit streams") in 2011. 4 of 8 in 2012, couldn't watch the Pro Circuit Arenas. That is fact.
So the fact is that Gold/Silver memberships looked totally different. That is also a fact.
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On January 10 2014 09:02 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 08:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:
As far as I remember, Gold and Silver memberships still provided complete access to everything that was advertised for all events that were promoted when purchased. The PPV Arena event(s) were added onto the schedule later in the year, and were additional content. Sure, bad communication, advertising, etc. but the fact remains that your Gold/Silver membership would have looked exactly the same with or without the Winter Arena being held.
You gotta check your facts man before you make your educated opinion. I could watch 6 of 6 Pro Circuit events with a Gold Membership (which was advertised to give "Access to HQ Pro Circuit streams") in 2011. 4 of 8 in 2012, couldn't watch the Pro Circuit Arenas. That is fact. So the fact is that Gold/Silver memberships looked totally different. That is also a fact.
All right, we all accept that and agree. MLG apologized for it and said that the PPV was something they needed to do for their investors as a proof of concept. Judging by the negative feed back from the first time, its unlikely to happen again. So can we move on now?
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On January 09 2014 09:12 Ercster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 08:40 MichaelDonovan wrote:On January 09 2014 05:10 joofro92 wrote:
ok bring Smash back ^__^ sounds great Smash Bros Melee? Yes. If SSBM is featured at MLG thousands of dicks will cum into the sky shower everyone with happiness. You mean Halo 3. Rookie mistake, but I'll forgive you for it 
Woooooaaah dude check yoself. Smashbros Melee is LEAGUES above any console FPS as an esport. It's a real shame that it's not bigger than it as at the moment. If it could make a comeback, justice will be restored to the world and all will be right again.
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On January 09 2014 09:38 NapkinBox wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 08:40 MichaelDonovan wrote:On January 09 2014 05:10 joofro92 wrote:
ok bring Smash back ^__^ sounds great Smash Bros Melee? Yes. If SSBM is featured at MLG thousands of dicks will cum into the sky shower everyone with happiness. It's a good thing SSBM is at MLG Anaheim this year 
WHAT ARE YOU SERIOUS I HAVE GOOGLING TO DO BRB
Edit: I must be terrible at googling because I haven't found anything about that. ;_;
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glad to see the MLG player has ad block detection.
and of course we'll have an ongoing battle between the guys circumventing the detection and the MLG guys keeping the detection bullet proof
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Destiny casting? lol. Wait. rofl. After what they did to Axeltoss and Axslav...
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MLG without captain America Polt would be useless atleast for me ....
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This is great news! MLG and sc2 reband! They r kinda testing water with 5k prize and the whole "viewer choice" thing.
But better than nothing at all.
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Destiny Casting?! Oh man, I'm hyped.
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On January 10 2014 06:25 MLG_Adam wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 06:04 tadL wrote:
Close to means what? You never reached it, you barely reached it, you made 1 dollar? Or does it just mean nothing but you have to say something without really answering to a question?
I know you have to do this and I am not angry its your job. The only reason MLG still exists is because you have someone in your company that can rise venture capital over and over again. This I respect. But it also shows that you never understood how to make money with eSport like other companies in this industry. Ofc being an US company sucks in terms of esport for many reasons. Infrastructure to just take one example. I get it.
And I also get why MLG is trying to sell everything positive and as a gift. Saying it in a way that is also true but not as positive is bad marketing (?), I get it. And I bet helping streamers to get a shedule out to maximase "their" profit is such a thing. Ofc its just for the best of the "streamer" right?
But dont try this PR nonsense with me please. Lets better hope the investors or venture capital people dont just do the usual thing. Cut a company in parts to sell as much of it and get some money back. And I hope you have a business running and you are not relaying on Riot to pay a lot of your bills.
And lets hope you make a good job for the next event to improve the streaming viewer experience if no game is running. Are you serious? We received investment money because what were doing was profitable and had potential for exponential growth. The model is difficult to predict when you take something smaller, infuse capital into it, and hope the ROI is there. We are still figuring it out, but to say that we're only alive because we received venture capital is wrong. We received venture capital because we saw potential to grow our successful business into something else.
+ Show Spoiler +Are you serious because I am and my logic is quite simple...
because if I make simple examples more people can understand it, and its the internet and ofc I have to adapt to the home community
...explain me please why MLG needed so many times venture capital if MLG is profitable? Because if I am running a profitable business I rather take a bank credit and don't have to sell a part of my company? And again if MLG had not to do it and got the capital for free, please can I have the contacts. I have some great Ideas about eSport with Android vs Iphone phones and would love to run it at least for 10 years. I am serious about it!
Maybe we should let this be because you could prove me wrong easy but you are refusing to do so what is an indication that you cant. Or why would you refuse to do it? I mean thats important for the community isn't it?
Fun point for me. It was never about it. I am still wondering if MLG claims to be the "Only American Online Competition".
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MLG finally making the right decisions.
Next step: Ban Koreans except for those who are committed to stay in America (such as Polt). Really hate those Koreans who steal local players' prize money and go "cya fuckers" after the 2 day event ends. MLG to Koreans is like a vacation where as GSL to foreigners is like a bootcamp. Such unfairness.
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United States23455 Posts
On January 10 2014 13:19 ppshchik wrote:
MLG finally making the right decisions.
Next step: Ban Koreans except for those who are committed to stay in America (such as Polt). Really hate those Koreans who steal local players' prize money and go "cya fuckers" after the 2 day event ends. MLG to Koreans is like a vacation where as GSL to foreigners is like a bootcamp. Such unfairness.
I know right it's so unfair how the better players win.
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EPT
