We've been working together with our partners on this area, and would like to get your feedback before finalizing the details.
The main goals are:
1. We'd like to have a bigger map diversity.
We know some players and pros don't like the idea of map diversity because it's difficult to learn new strategies on different maps, but we strongly believe that this creates a better experience in both keeping the game feeling fresh as well as fun to watch.
2. More maps rotated out per season in 2014, especially in the first season.
Because it's a new year, we'd like to bring in 4 new maps so that over half of the maps in the pool are fresh. Also, because each season will be much longer in 2014, we definitely would like to swap out more than 2 maps per season. Either 3 or 4 new maps per season is what we're currently thinking depending on how Season 1 goes.
Here are our detailed thought processes that we're currently in discussions with our tournament partners on.
as the last cut. It was a toss up between Derelict Watcher and Polar Night, but because Derelict is the older map, we're thinking this might just be the better map to cut.
- this is the largest map we've had and plays very different from the others in the pool. We're finding that this map is good in the current ladder season and would like to at least try it for an official season as well.
- We also watched all of the Red Bull games, coordinated with Team Liquid, and realized this was the clear best map among those in the map contest. The way the high yield expansion plays in this map is very unique and different.
New GSL map - GSL is currently working on two new maps, and we're currently in the process of bringing one of them in here. This will be the only truly standard map of the 4 new maps going in.
New rush map - We also would like to try a rush map in a slightly different fashion than before. Our goal here is to create a map where the main to main distance is standard, nat to nat is only very slightly shorter, but due to it being really open, aggression is preferred. The map as a whole feels fairly standard but the action just happens much faster.
As you can see, not all the maps are prepared yet and are in progress, but we just thought it's important to share our thoughts with all of you as soon as possible for initial feedback on our direction, as well as to keep you posted on what's coming soon in this area. Thank you~
How about you cut the utter turd first that goes by the name of Alterzim Stronghold. Changes in the map pool are welcome but please implement maps made by mapmakers, not blizzard.
This is amazing. Akilon was mind numbing, and the idea of more non-turtle maps makes me so happy :D
Life shall dominate on aggro maps ^^
Edit: @ OP/Juicyjames: I think litcher asked to not re-post the polls, since they allow voting after the round is over - potentially producing contradictory results afterward.
I'm ok with it however I'd rather see both gsl maps and blizzard not making maps. Arguably the best maps they ever made are entombed and antiga. Both are god awful. Please stop making maps blizzard, atleast I got vetos for those, however pro gamers can't just veto the shit you force on us.
On December 06 2013 05:18 ZAiNs wrote: Nice cuts. But not a fan of Alterzim. Also wish we got New Polaris Rapsody.
Haven't seen that many games on it but the games I've seen never led to anything nice.
New Polaris? People just cheesed most of the games they had to play on it, but that's because they didn't want to learn the map. If it was on ladder/WCS people would learn it and it would lead to really interesting games :D.
Bel'shir and Derelict are finally dead....tomorrow's gonna be bright. They can't hurt us anymore. (okay Derelict DID give us a few epic ZvTs, but everything else was boring).
I'm surprised Polar Nights and Yeonsu are still in, but I guess they can't make too many cuts. imo they really should be out based on quality though. Yeonsu is decent as far as the fun factor goes for your typical game, but balance wise it's suffering in ZvT. Polar Nights is the inverse, where the balance is okay but the games usually suck.
Frost is a total winner and thankfully seems to be stabilizing in balance. I expect this one will have the longevity of Whirlwind.
Alterizim Stronghold looks like loads of fun, but may not be very balanced. Bonus points for the nostalgia-factor of looking like Shakuras :D
Habitation Station produced nothing but cool games at the Redbull tournament. So much for NPR and its gimmicky lava xD
Part of me misses Akilon, but it was clearly past its time. People say it was too turtely but I think it gave us loads of epic games. Goodnight sweet Prince.
Blizzard maps suck a lot I really want that CruX just make 7 new maps and it would be as it was in OSLs and MSLs where I never got bored of maps compare to current state where I really do not like any map...
On December 06 2013 05:33 KalWarkov wrote: i voted for Habitation Station after looking over the maps for 2 minutes. got 3rd in the poll. ??? now wcs map.
Yeah, that's what everybody did. Now it's a WCS map, it's very amateuristic.
Blizzard discusses this with partners (Read : Casters & tournament organizers ).
We need a SC1 system where proteams or pro players extensively test maps and then give their opinion. Kespa always released maps well in advance of a new season to proteams, and they'd play customs on the maps for a long time, then give feedback.
On December 06 2013 05:33 KalWarkov wrote: i voted for Habitation Station after looking over the maps for 2 minutes. got 3rd in the poll. ??? now wcs map.
Yeah, that's what everybody did. Now it's a WCS map, it's very amateuristic.
Blizzard discusses this with partners (Read : Casters & tournament organizers ).
We need a SC1 system where proteams or pro players extensively test maps and then give their opinion. Kespa always released maps well in advance of a new season to proteams, and they'd play customs on the maps for a long time, then give feedback.
i also cant understand where they say it was the best map ... it was the most broken map i saw for a long time even on redbull tournament ... it was just bad
The maps removed are good but adding alterzim stronghold and habitation station.. dont know what to say. I mean are you kidding me? I cant ever belive that the pro players approve of this even a little bit. I mean sometimes you have to force new maps despite what the pro players think but these maps are just so bad. Hope it doesnt become reality. Im sure there are great mapmakers out there who can or have come up with better choices
On December 06 2013 05:47 Drake wrote: rush map ? sounds like "hello terran plz take your win here" map ^^ we saw that in wol in the start with the maps ^^
Terran hasn't been able to rush vs. P in all of HOTS and vs. Z since the queen buff. It's time for a change...
This pool gives me mixed feelings. It's finally good to see Derelict removed, never did like it, sad to see Bel'Shir go, I felt that was one of my stronger maps for some reason. Star Station I didn't play on much but it was really good for Terran drop play. Intrigued for the GSL created map and this "rush" map, or Habitation Station for that matter, it seemed a really cool map in RBBG although I think I'd have rather seen the lava map.
In regards to Alterzim, it needs to die already. It's too damn big and it will remain veto'd until Blizzard finally burn it to the ground.
We haven't really seen a map with Gold Bases that is actually obtainable since...Metalopolis? I know Neo Planet had them but let's be honest, how often could you actually take them.
I'll be honest with you guys, PvZ does worry me a bit on Habitation Station but I believe It'll be interesting for Zergs because you either take the early gold which means you need less drones and that means you can make an earlier army / more queens / more spines and be able to defend the 2 base all-in easier or you take the regular 3rd which has a tooooon of surface area. I also believe Zergs have a ton of options, with all the air space mutas/brood lords can be strong, the ramps make banelings/infestors good and I'd be interested to see swarm host play because you could probably force the player away from their gold and slowly take it out. Let's not even mention how great counter-attacks / flanking can be on the map.
Either way, I hope you guys give it a chance and if anybody has any feedback I'd love to hear it, either here or in a PM!
Hm, I really dislike Alterzim Stronghold.. The rest is quite okay to be honest. Will miss Belshir though, still remember the GSL game in which I saw it for the first time! I think Frost is one of the better maps right now.
Honestly, while I'm all for listening to pro players, I'm also interested in seeing what happens with maps that get into the map pool despite their (violent?) protests. Alterzim and this "rush map" + Habitation Station could either prove to be greatly entertaining maps or horrid additions. Either way, having tried is never a bad thing - we've had to put up with mortally boring maps for way too long before, which might be even worse. At least in this case, we can expect the maps to disappear quickly if they turn out to be fiascos.
Well, I still have lag/fps issues on Polar Night, not sure what it is so that'll stay vetoed. I like Habitation Station in there. Hopefully GSL gets out a good standard map too though.
Alterzim and Polar Night are the #1 and #2 worst maps ever made in any game, in my opinion. The random map generator in Red Alert 2 produced better maps than these abominations.
Habitation Station has a funny name. I really enjoyed all the games played on it at RedBull Battlegrounds NY. Scarlett vs. Bomber was EPIC, and sOs's Tempest build was hilarious.
Remember pro players advising is a massive conflict of interest... They don't want to have to learn new play styles on new maps... We NEED more map diversity. Love the changes
The cuts are fine I guess, boring maps. Alterzim is already on ladder for a while..? and it's the worst map I've ever played on. No idea what Habitation is.
As usual horrible decisions from the guys in charge of this game.
Why keep Polar Night, I don't know if the guy who made it was high at the time, but the weather effects are beyond annoying and do nothing but reduce vision and perfomance. Other than that the map is fine, but until that gets fixed it's a veto. Frost is dumb because its a 4 player map, but since they refuse to remove 4 player maps i guess they think it's fine that there is gambling in SC2, seems dumb to me but whatever. Yeonseu has a retarded 3rd location and seems to be a common veto for zergs. Alterzim is super dumb because 1) 4 player map and 2) too big and easy 3 bases is just not good map design. Dunno about habitation station. "GSL map" is honestly the only map I have hope for this season. "Rush map" sounds like a dumb gimmick, doubt it'll be any good.
Why remove Belshir, Star Station and Delerict? If you're gonna remove good, solid maps you better replace them with other solid maps, but sadly this is not the case this time. But yeah, I guess T and P didn't have a high enough win rate so they decide to remove the one map zergs liked to play on.
I see what they are trying to do here and i like it. WoL was very boring with all the Daybreak style maps and stale metagame.Lets hope it will actually help.
They got rid of most of the terrible maps and put in some more macro focused ones, I approve. Still iffy about the golds on Habitation, but is whatever, overall the pool looks solid.
Edit: what in the actual fuck, they kept Altrezim? I didn't even see it, I guess could not really fathom having it in. It's like an enormous Jungle Basin, zerg can go get fucked on this map more or less. Who on blizzard would look at that map and think it would make for good games?
On December 06 2013 06:35 Durmaz21 wrote: As usual horrible decisions from the guys in charge of this game.
Why keep Polar Night, I don't know if the guy who made it was high at the time, but the weather effects are beyond annoying and do nothing but reduce vision and perfomance. Other than that the map is fine, but until that gets fixed it's a veto. Frost is dumb because its a 4 player map, but since they refuse to remove 4 player maps i guess they think it's fine that there is gambling in SC2, seems dumb to me but whatever. Yeonseu has a retarded 3rd location and seems to be a common veto for zergs. Alterzim is super dumb because 1) 4 player map and 2) too big and easy 3 bases is just not good map design. Dunno about habitation station. "GSL map" is honestly the only map I have hope for this season. "Rush map" sounds like a dumb gimmick, doubt it'll be any good.
Why remove Belshir, Star Station and Delerict? If you're gonna remove good, solid maps you better replace them with other solid maps, but sadly this is not the case this time. But yeah, I guess T and P didn't have a high enough win rate so they decide to remove the one map zergs liked to play on.
On December 06 2013 06:42 Meerel wrote: Will there be TLMC's for every Season? and if yes, how many maps will be picked for ladder?
I hope they do a TLMC every season, or that at least Blizzard tries to get in contact with us mappers. If only they knew the amount of maps we could put out for them...
So happy to see an update to the map pool for 2014. I'm glad they picked up HS from Redbull Map contest really enjoyed the matches played on it durning the TLMC. I hope they keep up with this and evaluate the maps after each season keep things fresh and exciting!
On December 06 2013 06:35 Durmaz21 wrote: As usual horrible decisions from the guys in charge of this game.
Why keep Polar Night, I don't know if the guy who made it was high at the time, but the weather effects are beyond annoying and do nothing but reduce vision and perfomance. Other than that the map is fine, but until that gets fixed it's a veto. Frost is dumb because its a 4 player map, but since they refuse to remove 4 player maps i guess they think it's fine that there is gambling in SC2, seems dumb to me but whatever. Yeonseu has a retarded 3rd location and seems to be a common veto for zergs. Alterzim is super dumb because 1) 4 player map and 2) too big and easy 3 bases is just not good map design. Dunno about habitation station. "GSL map" is honestly the only map I have hope for this season. "Rush map" sounds like a dumb gimmick, doubt it'll be any good.
Why remove Belshir, Star Station and Delerict? If you're gonna remove good, solid maps you better replace them with other solid maps, but sadly this is not the case this time. But yeah, I guess T and P didn't have a high enough win rate so they decide to remove the one map zergs liked to play on.
While I agree with a lot of your points, star station and derelict watcher were also awful maps and def needed to be removed lol
On December 06 2013 06:35 Durmaz21 wrote: As usual horrible decisions from the guys in charge of this game.
Why keep Polar Night, I don't know if the guy who made it was high at the time, but the weather effects are beyond annoying and do nothing but reduce vision and perfomance. Other than that the map is fine, but until that gets fixed it's a veto. Frost is dumb because its a 4 player map, but since they refuse to remove 4 player maps i guess they think it's fine that there is gambling in SC2, seems dumb to me but whatever. Yeonseu has a retarded 3rd location and seems to be a common veto for zergs. Alterzim is super dumb because 1) 4 player map and 2) too big and easy 3 bases is just not good map design. Dunno about habitation station. "GSL map" is honestly the only map I have hope for this season. "Rush map" sounds like a dumb gimmick, doubt it'll be any good.
Why remove Belshir, Star Station and Delerict? If you're gonna remove good, solid maps you better replace them with other solid maps, but sadly this is not the case this time. But yeah, I guess T and P didn't have a high enough win rate so they decide to remove the one map zergs liked to play on.
While I agree with a lot of your points, star station and derelict watcher were also awful maps and def needed to be removed lol
and Bel'shir. I mean yeah, it surprisingly was not that imbalanced, but my god was it stale. I have very few good memories of that map both in my own games and watching a shitload of pro games on it for roughly a year since it's been in the pool. It won't be missed.
the only fun thing about alterzim is that the very few times i matchup with someone who doesn't have it vetoed, i just fast drone scout 6pool them, 99% of the time they went expo first regardless of race and i autowin lol
On December 06 2013 08:04 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I thought we were over the stupid gold bases thing...come on =/
Also, Alterzim is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too big, imo. Fine for a tournament map every now and then but as a standard ladder map? =/
Oh well, map downvotes will be pretty easy to figure out, I suppose.
Seriously, complaining about gold bases in 2013? What, specifically, is your problem with them in general?
Oh, and we better get used to these maps - remember, every single WCS tournament has to use them...
Gold bases disproportionately favour terran. It's really fucking weird to give terran a random boost on a single map for no reason.
MULEs on gold bases were patched a long time ago, I believe. Not exactly sure but I think a MULE on gold now yields the exact same as a MULE on blue or something, someone can correct me here if I'm wrong. Therefore, if that's indeed the case, Terran is actually relatively weaker with gold bases in play than other races since they cannot use their macro mechanic (MULE) to its full extent on it while Protoss (Chrono mass Probes to it) and Zerg (mass produce Drones) can.
The mappool appears to me like an experiment: The return of gold and backdoor bases. Alterzim is one huge coinflip and needs to go. Habitation Station would be good if the watchtower was removed. I'm curious about how the games will work out on it.
Okayish mappool until here, I'm pretty sure the GSL map is going to be decent at least but I'm not thrilled about a Blizzard rush map, at all.
"New rush map - We also would like to try a rush map in a slightly different fashion than before. Our goal here is to create a map where the main to main distance is standard, nat to nat is only very slightly shorter, but due to it being really open, aggression is preferred. The map as a whole feels fairly standard but the action just happens much faster."
this is just fucking awesome and David Kim's stated policy is fucking great.
Quote from other forums I thought was interesting:
Other than Neo planet we haven't really seen much of gold bases in HOTS so you can't 100% translate the experience over. Tanks were much stronger against Zerg in WoL and most of the gold base maps had it in a strictly center location like Antiga or Metalopolis where it allowed you to defend your whole half of the map without ever moving your tanks. This one allows you to defend 3 bases, but you'll mine those bases out faster, and be in pretty rough shape to take a 4th afterwards unless you successfully leverage your gold base for a big advantage. And the distance between 3rd and natural would require a big spread to cover runbys/counter attacks from the south.
All in all I think the notion that gold bases didn't work in WoL is just not enough to say they don't work in HOTS, especially when the attempts to include them were quite poor in WoL.
Another thing to think about is that yes Zerg doesn't benefit from the gold base as much as Terran, but I believe if Zerg takes the gold as a fast 3rd they'll be able to use that extra income early game to either make more army, more queens, more spines/spores and thus be able to defend easier. I completely agree that as a 5th or 6th base the gold is completely worthless for a zerg because at that point you're more starved for gas, but to be able to get that huge income burst early game will only help you out that much more.
The placement of the Gold bases as well as HoTS bringing many more harassment opportunities makes me believe the gold base won't be as "terran-favored" as everyone states.
Think about fungals from behind the gold base completely wrecking the mineral line, or brood lords sitting in the open air space raining hell, or mutas ping-ponging to the gold & main like in the Bomber vs Scarlett series, or swarm hosts sitting at the watch tower throwing waves at the gold and waves at the natural. We'll probably see cool forcefield walls like Parting did to stop mining, more storm drops, tempest rushes, maybe we see more siege tank play (fuck yea!) Hell, maybe even nukes! Yamato cannon? The possibilities we could see on Habitation Station get me excited.
On December 06 2013 08:04 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I thought we were over the stupid gold bases thing...come on =/
Also, Alterzim is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too big, imo. Fine for a tournament map every now and then but as a standard ladder map? =/
Oh well, map downvotes will be pretty easy to figure out, I suppose.
Seriously, complaining about gold bases in 2013? What, specifically, is your problem with them in general?
Oh, and we better get used to these maps - remember, every single WCS tournament has to use them...
Gold bases disproportionately favour terran. It's really fucking weird to give terran a random boost on a single map for no reason.
MULEs on gold bases were patched a long time ago, I believe. Not exactly sure but I think a MULE on gold now yields the exact same as a MULE on blue or something, someone can correct me here if I'm wrong. Therefore, if that's indeed the case, Terran is actually relatively weaker with gold bases in play than other races since they cannot use their macro mechanic (MULE) to its full extent on it while Protoss (Chrono mass Probes to it) and Zerg (mass produce Drones) can.
MULEs have nothing to do with it. Terran bio is way more mineral dependent than zerg and protoss, extra mineral income benefits them more. Whenever people say that because mules on gold were fixed there is no imbalance with gold bases anymore, it makes my brain hurt.
I don't like playing on Alterzim Stronghold, but the games I've watched played on it other than mine have been mostly fantastic. It's an excellent spectator map, and I think players will warm up to it once they have it figured out more.
Also loving the addition of Habitation Station. The games played on it were incredible.
On December 06 2013 08:04 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I thought we were over the stupid gold bases thing...come on =/
Also, Alterzim is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too big, imo. Fine for a tournament map every now and then but as a standard ladder map? =/
Oh well, map downvotes will be pretty easy to figure out, I suppose.
Seriously, complaining about gold bases in 2013? What, specifically, is your problem with them in general?
Oh, and we better get used to these maps - remember, every single WCS tournament has to use them...
Gold bases disproportionately favour terran. It's really fucking weird to give terran a random boost on a single map for no reason.
MULEs on gold bases were patched a long time ago, I believe. Not exactly sure but I think a MULE on gold now yields the exact same as a MULE on blue or something, someone can correct me here if I'm wrong. Therefore, if that's indeed the case, Terran is actually relatively weaker with gold bases in play than other races since they cannot use their macro mechanic (MULE) to its full extent on it while Protoss (Chrono mass Probes to it) and Zerg (mass produce Drones) can.
MULEs have nothing to do with it. Terran bio is way more mineral dependent than zerg and protoss, extra mineral income benefits them more. Whenever people say that because mules on gold were fixed there is no imbalance with gold bases anymore, it makes my brain hurt.
Dunno how you can say MULEs have nothing to do with it when dani` just gave a valid reason why MULEs being a key part of a terran's economy actually mitigates the benefit of a gold base. Also, a gold base complicates MULE management and typical mineral mine-out timings, problems that zerg and protoss don't have.
As for dani`'s idea that protoss and zerg's increased worker production has synergy with gold bases, I don't really see it. The point of gold bases is that they require less total workers and they also reduce the disadvantage of having less workers before saturation is achieved. As long as the gold base is instantly saturated when it finishes (leaving old blue bases undersaturated and receiving newly built workers), the gold base should actually benefit the lower worker player more.
Keep in mind that when fully saturated, a 6 patch gold expansion is only a ~5% increase in mining compared to an 8 patch blue expansion. Adding the other bases' patches in a standard 3 base economy, the gold is proving only a ~1.5% increase in mineral income by workers. (Add in the extra income from MULEs and that percent increase shrinks even more). So the way a gold expansion really helps is by providing extra minerals when undersaturated, as if you had 5 more workers. It's a brief boost in mineral income that shrinks as worker saturation gets close to full.
How it affects each game will come down to so many details. It's really impossible to say that it'll benefit terran in every situation. Keep in mind that protoss and zerg hardly ever take their 5th and 6th gases as fast as they could, meaning the first purpose of a 3rd base is to increase mineral income, to which the gold base contributes. This dependence on minerals at this particular time is the only thing that's really relevant to the discussion. Saying that terran typically builds a more mineral-hungry composition is far too vague and broad, and is really referencing a long term increase in mineral income anyway, which the gold base doesn't provide.
Well I'm gonna keep Alterzim vetoed but other than that map pool looks pretty solid. Not as interesting or dramatic as some of the changes in past map pools but that's fine by me I guess. Looking forward to the new GSL map and will most likely veto the "Rush Map" because I'm a bitch
I've only played Alterzim a few times, but I really didn't like it. Surprised they are putting it in, and Judging by the vote it looks like everyone else is feeling the same way. Interesting to see what the pro's feel about it, and if it stays or not.
On December 06 2013 10:56 lichter wrote: Despite people wanting Akilon out you'd be surprised how many of the highest recommended games occurred on it even late in its life
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (6)
5%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (1)
1%
★★★ - Good game (1)
1%
128 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Winners' Match Game 2?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
On December 06 2013 10:56 lichter wrote: Despite people wanting Akilon out you'd be surprised how many of the highest recommended games occurred on it even late in its life
I generally don't like maps where it's incredibly hard for a player (zerg in this case) to kill their opponent (protoss in this case) despite being really far ahead. Fanboy bias aside, JD vs sOs g1 was really hard to watch for this reason
Glad to see Habitation Station being given a chance I hope that that map can break the taboo around gold bases and we can start seeing them used again in intelligent ways. I also hope that it keeps on creating tense and action packed games
Congrats Sidian!
On December 06 2013 10:56 lichter wrote: Despite people wanting Akilon out you'd be surprised how many of the highest recommended games occurred on it even late in its life
Akilon was a good map. But even good maps need to be rotated out eventually .
lol now GSL map is the truly standard map. No wonder why the last few maps of them have been pretty much a clone of each other. I have a feeling that Neo Polaris Rhapsody is cut simply due to the lava mechanic. Remove that and it's still a decent, refreshing map imo.
On December 06 2013 12:04 geokilla wrote: Alterzim Stronghold is banned by all Terran players. I don't think I've seen any Terrans play on that map.
I know I"m not a pro player or a skilled super master imba player, though I played a decent amount of PvT on this map. I was expecting that this map will be played as often as Zerus Prime but surprisingly I play it quite often But i think this map is NOT a tournament type. It's good for my ladder play, I'm really happy that it's there and I really enjoy this map, but it's not good for any type of competition. As far as I can tell - PvZ is pretty dumb there(PvZ is my worst MU and I can win on this map way more often than I should). And PvT is kind of ... meh.
-I'm glad Star Station, Derelict Watcher and Belshir are gone. -Nuetral on Whirlwind and Akilon being gone but it was probably for the best. -I actually really like Alterzim so far so great addition. -Don't like Polar Night but Yeonsu and Frost are good keeps. -Interested to see how Habitation Station and the other new maps will do. -Overall, cool stuff
On December 06 2013 12:04 geokilla wrote: Alterzim Stronghold is banned by all Terran players. I don't think I've seen any Terrans play on that map.
I'd imagine it would be vetoed in TvZ and TvP but I'd love to see a super high level TvT on it.
My TvPs on it were decent. Much better than I expected. But TvZ, ZvT and ZvZ and ZvP are pure boredom on it. TvT is way to bio-favored for me to play it, since I always try to play "the other" style of my opponent but on that map Meching is just losing.
On December 06 2013 16:56 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: New rush map? Well, they could easily bring back "Stepps of war", cause it had the most of action from the very beggining.
Oh god, how i missing Delta Quadrant, Desert Oasis and Kulas Ravine, good old times
good old times when I switched to Terran because Terran could just do so much stuff. So many cool build orders, dozens of openings for every matchup, so much fun!
I'm fine with them switching some more maps. For the new map pool: Habitation station could be lots of fun. I can't even really form an opinion on Alterzim because just about everybody has vetoed it on the ladder, I played it twice now, a TvT where the other Terran went 2-rax Reaper and a TvZ where the Zerg went Roach-Baneling-allin (wtf?).
Frost is my favorite map at the moment, it's a true 4-player map where every spawn position has to be played differently. So many different types of games on that map. Yeonsu is awesome as well, Polar Night is okay I guess (I hate Banshees and Oracles on that map but if it gets to a 3-base or 4-base scenario the games turn out quite interesting with a lot of back-and-forth, base snipes etc.).
The new GSL map will probably be the same as almost every other GSL-map, quite good but pretty boring pretty quickly. The new rush map could be anything from awesome to awful. I'm curious how that one will turn out.
On December 06 2013 08:04 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I thought we were over the stupid gold bases thing...come on =/
Also, Alterzim is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too big, imo. Fine for a tournament map every now and then but as a standard ladder map? =/
Oh well, map downvotes will be pretty easy to figure out, I suppose.
Seriously, complaining about gold bases in 2013? What, specifically, is your problem with them in general?
Oh, and we better get used to these maps - remember, every single WCS tournament has to use them...
Gold bases disproportionately favour terran. It's really fucking weird to give terran a random boost on a single map for no reason.
MULEs on gold bases were patched a long time ago, I believe. Not exactly sure but I think a MULE on gold now yields the exact same as a MULE on blue or something, someone can correct me here if I'm wrong. Therefore, if that's indeed the case, Terran is actually relatively weaker with gold bases in play than other races since they cannot use their macro mechanic (MULE) to its full extent on it while Protoss (Chrono mass Probes to it) and Zerg (mass produce Drones) can.
MULEs have nothing to do with it. Terran bio is way more mineral dependent than zerg and protoss, extra mineral income benefits them more. Whenever people say that because mules on gold were fixed there is no imbalance with gold bases anymore, it makes my brain hurt.
Dunno how you can say MULEs have nothing to do with it when dani` just gave a valid reason why MULEs being a key part of a terran's economy actually mitigates the benefit of a gold base. Also, a gold base complicates MULE management and typical mineral mine-out timings, problems that zerg and protoss don't have.
As for dani`'s idea that protoss and zerg's increased worker production has synergy with gold bases, I don't really see it. The point of gold bases is that they require less total workers and they also reduce the disadvantage of having less workers before saturation is achieved. As long as the gold base is instantly saturated when it finishes (leaving old blue bases undersaturated and receiving newly built workers), the gold base should actually benefit the lower worker player more.
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Agreed, but I wasn't talking about *synergy* of Protoss / Zerg with gold bases (at least didn't intend to), just that they scale linearly while Terran benefits slightly less. Protoss and Zerg receive a flat 40% increase in mining per worker (7 vs 5), while Terran only gets that for non-MULES. MULEs are part of Terrans economy / worker force, so overall Terran's income increases less than 40%. Basically, I was thinking like this:
In this example, a normal worker yields about 50 minerals per minute on blue (800/16). If 800 is the correct number or not is not very relevant here, it yields nice numbers :-) On gold that would be 70 per minute (7 vs 5 per trip). A MULE mines 200/minute in this example (12 Terran workers do 600/min, so MULE does 200/min).
Thus, income on Gold when the current workforce is transfered in its entirety:
Protoss: 16 * 70 = 1120/minute. That is, 40% higher than 800. Terran: 12 * 70 + 200 (MULE doesn't change) = 1040/minute. That's an increase of only 30%.
There could be some flaws in this reasoning, but I think it's pretty valid. Note I do not in any way advocate changing MULEs back to +40% as well, it was ridiculous when Terran just spammed all their forgotten energy into MULEs @ gold -__-
Imho Frost is now easily the best map in the pool. Not too thrilled about a "rush map". Habitation Station is a big gamble imo; games were fun at RedBull:NY, but thats a pretty small sample size. I personally dont like Polar Night at all really. Yeonseu is meh, its not amazing but with how poor this map pool could end up, it may end up decent compared to the others. Really hoping the GSL map is good, because it needs to be in this map pool. Alterzim ... no comment
On December 06 2013 06:10 SidianTheBard wrote: So excited!!
We haven't really seen a map with Gold Bases that is actually obtainable since...Metalopolis? I know Neo Planet had them but let's be honest, how often could you actually take them.
I'll be honest with you guys, PvZ does worry me a bit on Habitation Station but I believe It'll be interesting for Zergs because you either take the early gold which means you need less drones and that means you can make an earlier army / more queens / more spines and be able to defend the 2 base all-in easier or you take the regular 3rd which has a tooooon of surface area. I also believe Zergs have a ton of options, with all the air space mutas/brood lords can be strong, the ramps make banelings/infestors good and I'd be interested to see swarm host play because you could probably force the player away from their gold and slowly take it out. Let's not even mention how great counter-attacks / flanking can be on the map.
Either way, I hope you guys give it a chance and if anybody has any feedback I'd love to hear it, either here or in a PM!
After seeing Scarlett vs sOs, I would like to know how can a Zerg defend the tempest build on Habitation Station...I think Tempest is OP vs Zerg in this map.
1. Considering the close distance between 2 gold, tempest could easily retreat. 2. There is even no place for ground army to attack tempest. 3. The ramps of nature and gold mine are so close, so that P can just put stalkers there. Once Zerg's mutas or corruptors chase tempest to gold, just manoeuvre those stalkers up the ramp. 4. Protoss do not even need 4th base to support tempest build, because they have gold. - Scarlett constantly did zerg run-by to sOs 4th base, but it just did not matter.
T have battle cruisers, but they do not have long range attack ability. Z have broodlords, but they can not attack air unit. So they can still be counter-attacked on this map. But tempest have both. How do tempest get eliminated with this short distance between 2 gold.... in an air battle?!
On December 06 2013 06:10 SidianTheBard wrote: So excited!!
We haven't really seen a map with Gold Bases that is actually obtainable since...Metalopolis? I know Neo Planet had them but let's be honest, how often could you actually take them.
I'll be honest with you guys, PvZ does worry me a bit on Habitation Station but I believe It'll be interesting for Zergs because you either take the early gold which means you need less drones and that means you can make an earlier army / more queens / more spines and be able to defend the 2 base all-in easier or you take the regular 3rd which has a tooooon of surface area. I also believe Zergs have a ton of options, with all the air space mutas/brood lords can be strong, the ramps make banelings/infestors good and I'd be interested to see swarm host play because you could probably force the player away from their gold and slowly take it out. Let's not even mention how great counter-attacks / flanking can be on the map.
Either way, I hope you guys give it a chance and if anybody has any feedback I'd love to hear it, either here or in a PM!
After seeing Scarlett vs sOs, I would like to know how can a Zerg defend the tempest build on Habitation Station...I think Tempest is OP vs Zerg in this map.
1. Considering the close distance between 2 gold, tempest could easily retreat. 2. There is even no place for ground army to attack tempest. 3. The ramps of nature and gold mine are so close, so that P can just put stalkers there. Once Zerg's mutas or corruptors chase tempest to gold, just manoeuvre those stalkers up the ramp. 4. Protoss do not even need 4th base to support tempest build, because they have gold. - Scarlett constantly did zerg run-by to sOs 4th base, but it just did not matter.
Number 4 makes no sense at all lol. The only real advantage of the gold base is you reach full saturation quicker. Gold and normal bases give you the same income on max saturation.
I really hope news maps won't be that Blink favor maps. Younsu is a pain in the ass for this. The only map that was kinda safe winnable against blink allin was Belshir. Habitation Station is kinda good for defending it.
On December 06 2013 06:10 SidianTheBard wrote: So excited!!
We haven't really seen a map with Gold Bases that is actually obtainable since...Metalopolis? I know Neo Planet had them but let's be honest, how often could you actually take them.
I'll be honest with you guys, PvZ does worry me a bit on Habitation Station but I believe It'll be interesting for Zergs because you either take the early gold which means you need less drones and that means you can make an earlier army / more queens / more spines and be able to defend the 2 base all-in easier or you take the regular 3rd which has a tooooon of surface area. I also believe Zergs have a ton of options, with all the air space mutas/brood lords can be strong, the ramps make banelings/infestors good and I'd be interested to see swarm host play because you could probably force the player away from their gold and slowly take it out. Let's not even mention how great counter-attacks / flanking can be on the map.
Either way, I hope you guys give it a chance and if anybody has any feedback I'd love to hear it, either here or in a PM!
After seeing Scarlett vs sOs, I would like to know how can a Zerg defend the tempest build on Habitation Station...I think Tempest is OP vs Zerg in this map.
1. Considering the close distance between 2 gold, tempest could easily retreat. 2. There is even no place for ground army to attack tempest. 3. The ramps of nature and gold mine are so close, so that P can just put stalkers there. Once Zerg's mutas or corruptors chase tempest to gold, just manoeuvre those stalkers up the ramp. 4. Protoss do not even need 4th base to support tempest build, because they have gold. - Scarlett constantly did zerg run-by to sOs 4th base, but it just did not matter.
Number 4 makes no sense at all lol. The only real advantage of the gold base is you reach full saturation quicker. Gold and normal bases give you the same income on max saturation.
It helps protoss get advantage in earlier stage. Protoss do not need to defend multiple bases in mid-game. Once the gold get mined out, protoss have already lead in their games.
On December 07 2013 12:04 Faust852 wrote: I really hope news maps won't be that Blink favor maps. Younsu is a pain in the ass for this. The only map that was kinda safe winnable against blink allin was Belshir. Habitation Station is kinda good for defending it.
Habitation Station is really easy to defend blink stalkers since there isn't much surface area to blink up into the natural. You are able to blink from the gold to the main, but it's such a long distance that you can only do 3-4 at a time (they just barely reach). Pretty sure it was San who tried blink play on the map and went to blink a ball of ~8 stalkers into the main from the Gold and 1/2 the stalkers couldn't reach, only the 1/2 that were right on the edge.
As for the Tempest build, I think that game would have turned out a lot different is the cannon rush didn't delay so much, if scarlett actually used spines to defend her extra bases (so ~4 zealots wouldn't kill it off) and if she actually teched up past lair. Either way, Scarlett's gold base already had a good chunk of mining on it by the time sOs started to destroy it off. I do think it'll be a very interesting dynamic because Zerg will probably take that Gold asap and try to hold onto it as long as possible before just sacrificing it, although hopefully at that time they have taken control of the whole bottom side of the map.
Either way, isn't it nice to have a map where doing something other then the norm is used? Maybe we'll start to see a lot faster Vipers if toss start to mass Tempests.
On December 07 2013 12:04 Faust852 wrote: I really hope news maps won't be that Blink favor maps. Younsu is a pain in the ass for this. The only map that was kinda safe winnable against blink allin was Belshir. Habitation Station is kinda good for defending it.
Habitation Station is really easy to defend blink stalkers since there isn't much surface area to blink up into the natural. You are able to blink from the gold to the main, but it's such a long distance that you can only do 3-4 at a time (they just barely reach). Pretty sure it was San who tried blink play on the map and went to blink a ball of ~8 stalkers into the main from the Gold and 1/2 the stalkers couldn't reach, only the 1/2 that were right on the edge.
As for the Tempest build, I think that game would have turned out a lot different is the cannon rush didn't delay so much, if scarlett actually used spines to defend her extra bases (so ~4 zealots wouldn't kill it off) and if she actually teched up past lair. Either way, Scarlett's gold base already had a good chunk of mining on it by the time sOs started to destroy it off. I do think it'll be a very interesting dynamic because Zerg will probably take that Gold asap and try to hold onto it as long as possible before just sacrificing it, although hopefully at that time they have taken control of the whole bottom side of the map.
Either way, isn't it nice to have a map where doing something other then the norm is used? Maybe we'll start to see a lot faster Vipers if toss start to mass Tempests.
Well, I have to agree with you on this. We only see 1 tempest build on this map. Might be possible for Zerg to go fast Vipers. Let us see.
This is a nice step in the right direction. Hopefully not every Protoss will go fast Tempest on Habitation gold base map, like sOs did. Can't say I won't miss Belshir Vestige though, maybe the best map of all time :s
On December 07 2013 17:57 ejozl wrote: This is a nice step in the right direction. Hopefully not every Protoss will go fast Tempest on Habitation gold base map, like sOs did. Can't say I won't miss Belshir Vestige though, maybe the best map of all time :s
Even if they do atleast it'd be interesting since this map'd have it's own metagame.
On December 06 2013 08:04 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I thought we were over the stupid gold bases thing...come on =/
Also, Alterzim is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too big, imo. Fine for a tournament map every now and then but as a standard ladder map? =/
Oh well, map downvotes will be pretty easy to figure out, I suppose.
Seriously, complaining about gold bases in 2013? What, specifically, is your problem with them in general?
Oh, and we better get used to these maps - remember, every single WCS tournament has to use them...
Gold bases disproportionately favour terran. It's really fucking weird to give terran a random boost on a single map for no reason.
MULEs on gold bases were patched a long time ago, I believe. Not exactly sure but I think a MULE on gold now yields the exact same as a MULE on blue or something, someone can correct me here if I'm wrong. Therefore, if that's indeed the case, Terran is actually relatively weaker with gold bases in play than other races since they cannot use their macro mechanic (MULE) to its full extent on it while Protoss (Chrono mass Probes to it) and Zerg (mass produce Drones) can.
MULEs have nothing to do with it. Terran bio is way more mineral dependent than zerg and protoss, extra mineral income benefits them more. Whenever people say that because mules on gold were fixed there is no imbalance with gold bases anymore, it makes my brain hurt.
I really think this is completely wrong. Hatcheries/Gateways are only minerals and two of the main units vs T as the races are Zealots and Zerglings which both cost minerals. You still get gas from the bases so what's the problem.
cant wait for Habitation Station, seems so cool i however think Yeounso and Frost are plain and lame, i think its cause i hate maps with snow/grass combination. colors doesnt mix
On December 06 2013 16:56 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: New rush map? Well, they could easily bring back "Stepps of war", cause it had the most of action from the very beggining.
Oh god, how i missing Delta Quadrant, Desert Oasis and Kulas Ravine, good old times
Steps of war would let protoss shoot your base from their base with tempests
On December 06 2013 16:56 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: New rush map? Well, they could easily bring back "Stepps of war", cause it had the most of action from the very beggining.
Oh god, how i missing Delta Quadrant, Desert Oasis and Kulas Ravine, good old times
Steps of war would let protoss should your base from their base with tempests
Also proxy Nexus first into Photon Overcharge harass.
On December 06 2013 16:56 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: New rush map? Well, they could easily bring back "Stepps of war", cause it had the most of action from the very beggining.
Oh god, how i missing Delta Quadrant, Desert Oasis and Kulas Ravine, good old times
Steps of war would let protoss should your base from their base with tempests
Also proxy Nexus first into Photon Overcharge harass.
does anyone know what happened to the map gravesite? it was in the TL map contest and it was cool as hell! like habitat station, i seriously prefer maps that are just cool, not that they are race based or shit like that. when its a cool map i really enjoy playing on it
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Yc8WbrV.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4nvUuFh.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OvFabPg.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iKKfGHM.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AE6YwDf.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JL3CPXg.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/TLMC3/habitationstationmed.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/M4DHBml.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/B2Yt8Dc.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eaPe7xS.jpg)
But i think this map is NOT a tournament type. It's good for my ladder play, I'm really happy that it's there and I really enjoy this map, but it's not good for any type of competition. As far as I can tell - PvZ is pretty dumb there(PvZ is my worst MU and I can win on this map way more often than I should). And PvT is kind of ... meh.
