Thank you everyone for taking the time to vote in the Red Bull TL Map Contest. We're really pleased with how the finalists played out during the Red Bull TLMC Battle Grounds qualifier and some of the great games that resulted are a testament to the quality of these maps. While the competition for first place was never really in any doubt, only a few votes separated 2nd-3rd and 4th-5th, so every vote mattered right up to the end of the contest. Without any further delay the winners are....
Fourth Place
Synapse
by -NegativeZero-
Congratulations to -NegativeZero- for grabbing fourth place and $100! Synapse is a map which places great emphasis on space control in long games. While this map should play out like many other maps up until the third bases are taken, the real beauty of this map is what it does to the late game. To take a fourth base players need to be able control sections of the map culminating in controlling their side of the ridge which divides the map. This in addition to the Blue Storm-esque path through the middle of the map was well received within the community. The map grabbed 10% of the overall vote (only .41% ahead of Graveside!) and a well deserved fourth place.
Third Place
Blitzkrieg
by Neobowman
Congratulations to Neobowman for grabbing third place and $200! Any time you have a 2 player map with horizontal symmetry a key question a mapper must ask is how do you promote players to utilize the entire map, not just the short distance between the mains. Blitzkrieg approaches that problem through two ways; firstly the size restriction on units that are capable of passing through the shortest distance and secondly the watch tower which looks over the next shortest distance. This allows games to develop initially over the short distances and progress to the longer distances and makes for a dynamic map. In addition to this the map feature complicated and interesting design and a double ramp at the natural. Truly an exception map worthy of a top 3 finish in this contest. The map received 12.01% of the vote.
Red Bull TLMC Runner-Up
Habitation Station
by Sidianthebard
Congratulations to Sidianthebard for clinching second place and $300! The version of Habitation Station that you see today is the product of countless revisions after considering input from progamers and mappers alike. The first version of the map was entered in the previous TLMC but was unsuccessful. Sidian took that feedback a really made substantial improvements to the map and the result is outstanding. In comparison to Blitzkrieg, Habitation faces the horizontal symmetry problem head on, using gold bases to entice conflict between the short distances in the earlier stages of the game. Once these have been exhausted and the bases on the south side are taken, then the game continues to promote conflict through counter attacks and the proximity of the two bases at 6. As such the map favors aggressive macro play which should make for extremely exciting games. Habitation Station received 12.84% of the vote.
Red Bull TLMC Winner
New Polaris Rhapsody
by Meerel
Congratulations to Meerel for winning the Red Bull TL Map Contest, and winning himself $400 and a trip to New York to watch his map in action at the Red Bull Battle Grounds. Even before we announced the finalists to the public, New Polaris Rhapsody was the #1 ranked map by our panel of judges who were all eager to see what this map could offer to influence the metagame. Once we announced the finalists we knew that this map would be a contender for first. Word that a map in the Red Bull TLMC was using the rising lava mechanic soon spread and seemingly captured the communities excitement. Even the casters of the Red Bull TLMC Qualifier [Tod and Rotterdam] remarked at how they had heard of this map and were excited to see how things would play out.
The lava mechanic offers a new dimension to the metagame. Players will need to be mindful of when the lava is rising else their units will be obliterated. We really look forward to progamers not only being mindful, but using the lava mechanic to launch attacks -- dropping once the lava rises, using mutalisks to pull an army one way before the lava rises so that they can dart into the main once the lava is up, using forcefields to trap units on the low ground before they're consumed by fire -- these possibilities make us very excited, and we hope that the map lives up to the potential that it offers. While some Zergs may find the map unattractive due to limitations on where they can place creep tumors, we hope that they embrace this challenge rather than shun it and look to alternatives like overlords dropping creep in place of creep tumors in lava-prone areas.
While we've talked a lot about the lava mechanic, the rest of the map is also well designed. For starters, the map brings back the same height natural-main which has been absent since Tal'Darim Altar. The area behind the natural also can make for interesting drop play. Looking past the first two bases, as lava only floods the central chasm of the map, a lot of focus will be given to how the game develops on the east and west wings of the map. With a natural third-fourth-fifth base flow on either side a normal game can develop despite the lava. It's this beautiful combination of standard and non-standard which won the hearts of the community and was the clear victor with 40.17% of the total vote.
Red Bull TLMC Finalists
Blitzkrieg
by: neobowman
Graveside
by: eTcetRa
Habitation Station
by: Sidianthebard
Jungle Valley
by: Samro225am
New Polaris Rhapsody
by: Meerel
Shrieking Breeze
by: Gfire
Synapse
by: -NegativeZero-
The maps can all be found on Battle.net (all servers) by searching for the tag [TLMC] in the custom games section. Replays from the Red Bull Battle Grounds TLMC Qualifier can be found here.
I really like the winning map, it's truly a fresh idea with great implementation. I also like the other maps (wish there were more winners). Too bad for the lava mechanic, Blizz just decided to nerf bio and thus drop play Congratulations to the winners, and looking forward to the RB battle grounds!
On November 12 2013 20:42 Ghanburighan wrote: I really like the winning map, it's truly a fresh idea with great implementation. I also like the other maps (wish there were more winners). Too bad for the lava mechanic, Blizz just decided to nerf bio and thus drop play Congratulations to the winners, and looking forward to the RB battle grounds!
Nerfing the mine doesn't equal a bio nerf.... and mech also has really strong drops
On November 12 2013 20:56 partydude89 wrote: personally i would of loved to see habitation station win. i thought it was a really cool/well designed map
I can only agree... without the lava mechanics New Polaris would hardly place top 4
I think it's awesome that a map with laava mechanic is going to be featured in a major tournament. It would be really cool to see some major evolution in what's accepted in terms of competitive maps!
I'm not very happy with the aesthetics of the rising lava, it looks very artificial. I think that if this map gets played a lot that some luminous people should investigate whether this can be made to look better.
Glad Polaris Rhapsidy won, even without the lava it's a genuinly interesting map in regards to base placement and that's such a huge improvement over recent maps we've had.
All the top 4 were interesting but my favourites there were Synapse for the Blue Storm esque center and Polaris.
On November 12 2013 21:32 Xaeldaren wrote: sOs should be happy with New Polaris Rhapsody since it's the best cannon rush map ever made
He can win games straight up vs. zerg lol, cannon from natural to main to shut down both or even can keep a probe on both sides of the map to cannon the 3rd since it wont be accessible once lava is up.
On November 12 2013 21:37 TLHP wrote: Do we have Polaris Rhapsody with lava coverage? Just want to see which area is unlivable :D
That's the area covered by lava
I'm not sure it's a good thing to have lava between the natural and the third, this could be problematic. But anyway, all those maps are awesome! Thank you so much mappers, and thank you so much red bull for doing this
gonna be really interesting to see how people deal with drop play during the lava rise; you cant get from your main to your third so there's gonna be a lot more small micro! looks fun :D
On November 12 2013 21:37 TLHP wrote: Do we have Polaris Rhapsody with lava coverage? Just want to see which area is unlivable :D
That's the area covered by lava
I'm not sure it's a good thing to have lava between the natural and the third, this could be problematic.
I think it should be cross spawn only. Then you can just build on the side your opponent isn't on. That still leaves air, but that will probably be how the pros deal with the lava anyway.
It's a shame that we only got to see a couple of build order win PvPs on new polaris during the qualifier tourney cast. Were there any longer games played on it that I could watch from the replay pack?
Congrats to all the finalist! I wish I was able to cast up matches on New polaris during the TLMC but most of the pros avoided that map when given the choice :X Makes me wonder if the only time we'll see the map is if some of the players are feeling crazy or for the finals as a last map choice
On November 12 2013 20:56 partydude89 wrote: personally i would of loved to see habitation station win. i thought it was a really cool/well designed map
I can only agree... without the lava mechanics New Polaris would hardly place top 4
On November 13 2013 01:01 moskonia wrote: Picking the lava map because of the lava is like picking a car because the commercial has a hot woman driving it.
Good thing that isn't the only reason they picked it. Also, your analogy sucks, you don't get the hot woman with the car.
On November 13 2013 01:01 moskonia wrote: Picking the lava map because of the lava is like picking a car because the commercial has a hot woman driving it.
On November 13 2013 01:01 moskonia wrote: Picking the lava map because of the lava is like picking a car because the commercial has a hot woman driving it.
Good thing that isn't the only reason they picked it. Also, your analogy sucks, you don't get the hot woman with the car.
I am not saying the only reason they picked it is because of the lava, but people got excited over the gimmick and chose it because of it, not because of the layout, which is really not that good imo. I think Graveside and Synapse are much more interesting, the backdoor and the 1 width ramp 3rd are both cool concepts that I would love to see pro's develop builds for, unlike the lava thing which could be interesting, but will probably do little difference to the gameplay of the map, besides maybe a timing attack which could kill a 3rd while the army is at the nat, or drop the main if the army is at the 3rd, but with proper map control and scouting the lava will probably do nothing.
About the analogy, well I am not good with analogies, but I think the point was understood.
On November 13 2013 01:01 moskonia wrote: Picking the lava map because of the lava is like picking a car because the commercial has a hot woman driving it.
Stay jealous Mosko ~
Congrats Mereel!!!! ^^!
I wasn't a finalist so why would I be jealous? While I would have liked to get my maps picked, I am mostly a player.
I don't like the gimmicky lava thing, but I gotta admit I'm excited to see how this play out in a couple of pro games. I do hope stuff like this doesn't become the norm though, I don't mind dynamic maps, but I don't want to see map mechanics dominate a game.
On November 13 2013 01:01 moskonia wrote: Picking the lava map because of the lava is like picking a car because the commercial has a hot woman driving it.
Good thing that isn't the only reason they picked it. Also, your analogy sucks, you don't get the hot woman with the car.
I am not saying the only reason they picked it is because of the lava, but people got excited over the gimmick and chose it because of it, not because of the layout, which is really not that good imo. I think Graveside and Synapse are much more interesting, the backdoor and the 1 width ramp 3rd are both cool concepts that I would love to see pro's develop builds for, unlike the lava thing which could be interesting, but will probably do little difference to the gameplay of the map, besides maybe a timing attack which could kill a 3rd while the army is at the nat, or drop the main if the army is at the 3rd, but with proper map control and scouting the lava will probably do nothing.
About the analogy, well I am not good with analogies, but I think the point was understood.
On November 13 2013 01:01 moskonia wrote: Picking the lava map because of the lava is like picking a car because the commercial has a hot woman driving it.
Stay jealous Mosko ~
Congrats Mereel!!!! ^^!
I wasn't a finalist so why would I be jealous? While I would have liked to get my maps picked, I am mostly a player.
I was just joking u.u But yeah i agree with you, NPR layout's is quite standard with a slightly hard third base, as you said what we will see will mostly be interesting timing attacks and some cool ways to use the lava to your advantage but no much more than that, i don't think we will be seeing a complete revamped metagame like it would happen with maps like Jungle Valley or Shrieking Breeze, but i feel that the fact that this map won is enough and may get tournament organizers to explore more options other than the ladder maps. The only thing that worries me here is that the very same maps that made players actually think and practice are the ones that got the least votes (Jungle Valley & Shrieking Breeze) so that consolidates my thought that the biggest part of the community wants only standard maps :|.
I hope it ends up being mandatory first map in each bo#
Gimmicks are important. We've currently got a huge number of maps that have just been plain. Kespa adds gimmicks to BW maps and they're applauded. They changed things drastically using ideas that nobody would have expected. Even if NPR ends up being terrible in competitive play, it is a new and exciting idea. And with RedBull accepting this map as a tournament map, maybe this will say to other map makers that the "gimmicky" or "weird" ideas that they have aren't as impossible to realize and accept as we think.
Shit I didn't know lava rises on that map. Would have got my vote haha. Still won which is cool. Unique maps with more features should be more common, it would spice up the otherwise stale gameplay that the meta-game is prone to develop.
On November 13 2013 04:10 Incubus1993 wrote: Shit I didn't know lava rises on that map. Would have got my vote haha. Still won which is cool. Unique maps with more features should be more common, it would spice up the otherwise stale gameplay that the meta-game is prone to develop.
You should really inform yourself before voting. (that goes for all polls/elections)
wouldn't that lava map just promote sitting in your base? There's no point in walking your army across the map to only be cut off from your base while a counter attack happens.
On November 13 2013 04:27 Northern_iight wrote: wouldn't that lava map just promote sitting in your base? There's no point in walking your army across the map to only be cut off from your base while a counter attack happens.
I think it will promote two-base play, but the thing is, if I rmemeber correctly, the lava comes up every five minutes. A lot of heavy two-base allins will actually be delayed by the lava, because they'd want to leave their base around the time it flows up.
On November 13 2013 06:13 dinosrwar wrote: Yay NPR won!!! Are there any casted vods of matches being played on that map so we can see the lava rising in action?
i don't want to take anything away from the winning map or its author (hi, mereel!) but i really hope the attitude expressed above is not something typical within this community. to put it more clearly: why do people care and vote for maps they have not seen in action before? not going to start discussing public votes here, cause we should celebrate that finally community maps get a bit more attention (thanks Plexa, thanks TL, thanks red bull).
Congrats to the winners... I'm pretty happy with the way the voting turned out. I do still like Jungle Valley and hope it isn't forgotten after all this (as well as Shrieking Breeze of course.) BTW, did anyone catch the 6th/7th place at the end? It was tied the last time I checked.
I made a few small tweaks (basically bug fixes) to Shrieking Valley and I want to use that version for games in the near future. I want to get more testing games on it, especially now post-patch, so I'll publish it and hopefully people will start playing on that one. I'll be looking to obs some games.
On November 13 2013 04:27 Northern_iight wrote: wouldn't that lava map just promote sitting in your base? There's no point in walking your army across the map to only be cut off from your base while a counter attack happens.
I think it will promote two-base play, but the thing is, if I rmemeber correctly, the lava comes up every five minutes. A lot of heavy two-base allins will actually be delayed by the lava, because they'd want to leave their base around the time it flows up.
The 5 minute lava mostly hurts 4 gate all-ins and 7 roach rushes because nothing else other than scouting workers will be wandering around.
The 10 minute lava flow mostly inhibits ground-based all ins as they cannot attack through the middle lest they get stalled out and melt when the lava rises. But things like drops or warp prisms can punish a 3rd at the lava timing because if the army is trying to defend the 3rd, it can't go to the main.
the 15 minute lava flow is more interesting, because that's around the time when air harass really is deadly. I would suppose that dropping the main while attacking the 3rd would be hard to defend and for example in TvP, protoss probably will not be able to do it with colossus-based armies. Templar first styles may be forced on this map.
Hopefully they make NPR mandatory (no veto) so we can get some games on it. Most games will probably end in some form of all-in (as with a lot of new maps), but all we need is 1 game to go lategame to see what potential this map + gimmick has. Can't wait for Battlegrounds!
I published the update to Shrieking Breeze which includes rocks at the main ramps just in case and an adjustment to the rock towers so the nats can be walled properly. I'll be hoping to get games played on this version so they're of some use to me.
I hope it's okay I still flagged it as [TLMC] so people can find it more easily.
We have the group "ESV Map Testers" (at least on AM) for people to use to organize games. I'll be there sometimes if I'm looking to obs.
I'd appreciate if anyone masters+ who plays on Shrieking Breeze (especially new version) could upload their reps and like post them here or PM them to me.
Congrats to NPR, even though I think graveside/habilitation are better. By the way, I'd not mind if the people that didn't win got feedback on their maps too -_^
So cool. Can't wait to see some pro games played on it. I really enjoyed the Lava Stage during the WoL campaign but I do worry that the Lava could decide a game. I have fond and not so fond memories of 5v5 Arenas back in WoW on Nagrand before they removed the whirlwinds, and i always hated Orgrimmar Arena. However the lava being only in the center of the map is very smart and i think will allow for more strategy than bullshit at the end of the day.
If successful, i'd love to see the concept expanded (islands?).
I'd just like to point out that I'm surprised Jungle Valley didn't get as many votes. Watching games played on that map in my opinion was very enjoyable. I can see why it could be frustrating because not allowing the super early scouts might make that map kind of a coin flip with build orders. But still, you'd see a lot more air play/harass. You'd see 3 hatch before anything. I thought I even recall there being a nexus first into gateway into 3rd nexus? (or maybe it was CC>Rax>CC) which is just interesting.
I suppose protoss all-ins being able to blink and/or warp over the walls might be a little strong as well, but overall at least in my opinion was one of the more fun maps to spectate.
Just throwing this out there, but if any map maker wants any feedback from me shoot me a PM, I'm usually more then happy to help a fellow mapper.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that maybe Red Bull will use top 3 maps in their tournament(or just use 7 since there is a huge assortment of map variation!) The more the merrier!
I think the lava mechanic is very cool, I just wish it wouldn't turn the map into an island but allow some long distance path to the mains. Still a very cool innovative map, I hope we see some awesome games on it at RBBG and maybe have it come to the ladder to break up the serious monotone that 1v1 exudes.
On November 13 2013 23:11 Tosster wrote: Can't believe that people got hooked on that trick...
People got tired of the maps boiling down to easy and hard to take 3rds and 4ths. I want to see more stuff like this, like cliffs that block flying vision or maps with tunnels. New stuff is good stuff.
On November 13 2013 23:11 Tosster wrote: Can't believe that people got hooked on that trick...
People got tired of the maps boiling down to easy and hard to take 3rds and 4ths. I want to see more stuff like this, like cliffs that block flying vision or maps with tunnels. New stuff is good stuff.
There is a difference between stuff like lava, which is interesting but mostly useless, to map features that are simply unused. Open natural maps could really give a whole new set of builds and strategies, allowing for more low econ games which are really cool imo. The lava is something that attracted attention and thus got its votes. While concepts like the lava are interesting, I feel that should be experimented before normal map features that are unused start to be used.
I think the lava will prove to be very unbalanced unfortunately.
Zerg is forced to go muta. Terran is forced to drop. Protoss has warpgates, mass recall and strong air. Rally pushes are impossible. Tvt will be even more about air control. Maybe the new timings would be interresting for a little while, but once they are figured out, I think lava will feel limiting rather than exciting.
On November 14 2013 03:05 Slydie wrote: I think the lava will prove to be very unbalanced unfortunately.
Zerg is forced to go muta. Terran is forced to drop. Protoss has warpgates, mass recall and strong air. Rally pushes are impossible. Tvt will be even more about air control. Maybe the new timings would be interresting for a little while, but once they are figured out, I think lava will feel limiting rather than exciting.
I think if the lava didn't turn the map into an island, but allowed a pathway(s) to the mains, people wouldn't hate it as much.
Also if you borrow your units does the lava kill them? I hope it doesn't because it would allow an interesting mechanic.
On November 14 2013 03:05 Slydie wrote: I think the lava will prove to be very unbalanced unfortunately.
Zerg is forced to go muta. Terran is forced to drop. Protoss has warpgates, mass recall and strong air. Rally pushes are impossible. Tvt will be even more about air control. Maybe the new timings would be interresting for a little while, but once they are figured out, I think lava will feel limiting rather than exciting.
this is what people are talking about when they say people are too resistant to metagame change in maps. if you theorycraft away literally anything that undermines "standard" play, standard play will never change
i understand that initially things may seem like balance concerns, but it is 100% necessary to actually test a map with many real games to understand how it can play out. if it's out there for a while and everyone hates it for balance, it can always be forgotten or replaced. but not trying new things is the worst option
Also the lava only comes up every 5 minutes and it only stays up for like 5 seconds so it's not like it's "that" much of an impact. It'll just make more mindgames between the players because maybe they want to push out at 9:30, but instead lava comes up at 10 so maybe they'll change their builds up so it pushes out at 9:15 so they can get across the map before the lava. Or maybe it'll force the parade push to start at 10:05 and go til 14:50 instead of starting at 9:30 and going the rest of the game.
The only thing I dislike about the lava is the fact that it will kill creep tumors. Sure you can spread creep with overlords but then that puts a lot of your overlords in harms way, especially with marines/blink stalkers/phoenix/muta all being fairly popular in todays meta.
On November 14 2013 08:41 Barrin wrote: BTW where you say "horizontal symmetry" what you really mean is "reflection symmetry". It's not even horizontal; it's vertical. This is literally the first topic I wrote about SC2 mapmaking over 3 years ago; "Vertical Axis Reflection Symmetry" or VARS was identified as the most perfectly balanced type of symmetry (vertical > horizontal!) for reasons you can read about there (worker spawn no longer applicable, now that I think about it maybe I had something to do with that lol).
This is hardly significant, I'm just kind of a stickler about accuracy in communication and documentation, for posterity if nothing else. Considering how "fast" we're moving forward, we can't afford to move backwards any inches.
---
Speaking of communication, documentation, and posterity... Finalists Judges?
The reflection itself, however, is horizontal. While what you say is technically true, to use it in casual conversation on the subject is cumbersome, since there is some parsing of the terms involved. An equivalent would be in algebra, talking about the numbers in an equation for a parabola, when the net result is the vertex moves 2 units. The result is what people think in terms of because it's easiest. There's no backtracking, rather the opposite, we've come to understand the technicals of mapmaking, and are moving forward with practical methods derived from those technicals. Nothing wrong with that.
On November 14 2013 00:43 Barrin wrote: This isn't even registering on my hype-meter. What gives? This is probably what the topic should switch to.
For any concerned tournament organizer, I have read the Official Rules carefully multiple times; while Red Bull / TL can now do whatever they want with these maps, the authors of the map still hold any ownership/IP/licensing rights to their maps (that are not already legitimately claimed by blizzard). Is/was that a concern?
After the Promotion Period, representatives selected by Sponsor (the “Finalist Judges”) will review the eligible entries. The Finalist Judges will judge each eligible entry based on the following criteria: (a) creativity/originality, (b) functionality/playability, and (c) aesthetics. The Finalist Judges will determine seven (7) finalists (the “Finalists”).
In the past (when Blizzard ladder was not on the table) discussion between judges and mapmakers about how to improve their maps is what kept these threads alive-ish. Keeping the thread alive is hardly a noble goal in comparison to helping mapmakers improve their maps. But... like... who even are these "Finalist Judges"? They haven't even identified themselves.
Are they even allowed to?
I'm pretty sure they were listed in the finalists post before it was edited. Dunno if the names were edited out for privacy concerns but I'll stay mum on the issue.
On November 14 2013 00:43 Barrin wrote: This isn't even registering on my hype-meter. What gives? This is probably what the topic should switch to.
For any concerned tournament organizer, I have read the Official Rules carefully multiple times; while Red Bull / TL can now do whatever they want with these maps, the authors of the map still hold any ownership/IP/licensing rights to their maps (that are not already legitimately claimed by blizzard). Is/was that a concern?
FINALIST SELECTION:
After the Promotion Period, representatives selected by Sponsor (the “Finalist Judges”) will review the eligible entries. The Finalist Judges will judge each eligible entry based on the following criteria: (a) creativity/originality, (b) functionality/playability, and (c) aesthetics. The Finalist Judges will determine seven (7) finalists (the “Finalists”).
In the past (when Blizzard ladder was not on the table) discussion between judges and mapmakers about how to improve their maps is what kept these threads alive-ish. Keeping the thread alive is hardly a noble goal in comparison to helping mapmakers improve their maps. But... like... who even are these "Finalist Judges"? They haven't even identified themselves.
Are they even allowed to?
I'm pretty sure they were listed in the finalists post before it was edited. Dunno if the names were edited out for privacy concerns but I'll stay mum on the issue.
It wasn't edited out for privacy concerns (or at all, the information is here), the judges were Me, Monitor and Yoshi Kirishima (TL strategy rep).
I was thinking about Lava on progaming maps since I finished campaign but I figured it would be awful, unbalanceable experience for progamers. I still think that the idea is not worthy of progaming but I would be happy to be wrong
If nothing else, I think the Polaris victory shows that a lot of people watching the game are at least moderately excited for things that shake up the game somehow. It's a good map even without the lava, but I don't think it would have won by the same margin if it didn't have it.
On November 14 2013 22:41 KingLeonardo wrote: Can't believe Habitation Station got second place. Gold minerals at potential third base will be a huge problem in ZvP.
On November 14 2013 00:43 Barrin wrote: This isn't even registering on my hype-meter. What gives? This is probably what the topic should switch to.
For any concerned tournament organizer, I have read the Official Rules carefully multiple times; while Red Bull / TL can now do whatever they want with these maps, the authors of the map still hold any ownership/IP/licensing rights to their maps (that are not already legitimately claimed by blizzard). Is/was that a concern?
FINALIST SELECTION:
After the Promotion Period, representatives selected by Sponsor (the “Finalist Judges”) will review the eligible entries. The Finalist Judges will judge each eligible entry based on the following criteria: (a) creativity/originality, (b) functionality/playability, and (c) aesthetics. The Finalist Judges will determine seven (7) finalists (the “Finalists”).
In the past (when Blizzard ladder was not on the table) discussion between judges and mapmakers about how to improve their maps is what kept these threads alive-ish. Keeping the thread alive is hardly a noble goal in comparison to helping mapmakers improve their maps. But... like... who even are these "Finalist Judges"? They haven't even identified themselves.
Are they even allowed to?
I'm pretty sure they were listed in the finalists post before it was edited. Dunno if the names were edited out for privacy concerns but I'll stay mum on the issue.
It wasn't edited out for privacy concerns (or at all, the information is here), the judges were Me, Monitor and Yoshi Kirishima (TL strategy rep).
I coulda sworn I looked everywhere :o
Apparently there are two finalist threads. It's funny that I didn't realize this because I was posting in both of them >.< Here's the other one (no judge names in OP). Playin' tricks on me ^^
---
So I quickly judged all the map overviews that were shown publicly. Thoroughly unimpressed, I shall redirect my criticism back to the maps/mapmakers (and go back to making my own damn maps, of course). If this was a flop, it was the mapmaking community's fault and certainly not the judges'/system's/etc. (that's not to say they couldn't use more outside feedback). With 6/7 of the same finalists I would have chosen, I feel the judges did a fine job. I wouldn't even worry that much about giving feedback on the losing maps; a lot of the [fatal] mistakes are fairly elementary and most of these people should know better by now. If(when?) I get around to it I'd probably make quick work of highlighting the errors.
White Storm I would place above SB and maybe even JV. With how each player will, in the mid/late game, want to position their army on the high ground -- and how the high grounds are pretty close to each other combined with a slow reinforcement time if the rocks are down -- games might get pretty "unstable" with eventual lack of defender's reinforcement advantage (actually, only if the attacking player doesn't block his rocks). I do like the aggressive opportunities of the middle bases, but in the very late game, when the rocks are down and most bases are filled it might even get a little circle-syndromey (also "unstable"). If it weren't for that, I might even place it above Graveside and Synapse. Hell, maybe I would anyway.
Any of the judges want to highlight any problems with White Storm (own opinion and/or opinion that was brought up in discussion)? Perhaps it was for fear of neobowman winning two prizes? I doubt it was that tbh.
I nominate White Storm for unofficial honorable mention
Poll: White Storm for [unofficial] honorable mention?
No. (please give alternative) (8)
57%
Yes. White Storm <3 (6)
43%
14 total votes
Your vote: White Storm for [unofficial] honorable mention?
(Vote): Yes. White Storm <3 (Vote): No. (please give alternative)
YESYESYESYES.
I actually liked White Storm a great deal more than Blitzkrieg. I principally just liked the way it plays if one player takes an aggressive third and the other takes the more defensive third. This leads to a big positional see-saw where the defensive player should be able to hold the high ground but the aggressive player could gain access to an easy fourth base. The tight chokes are in support of this so that even though its very chokey and difficult to attack, the short distances between bases would have both armies engaged in positional warfare, with the ever present possibility of a counterattack into your nat from a different direction (moreso against the defensive player)
The only easily fixable problem I found in White Storm after submitting was that blink stalkers can get vision of the main from the outside and potentially blink in. Not too big of an issue, but something I would've liked to fix before submitting.
On November 15 2013 05:21 Barrin wrote: a "no" vote + no comment = jelly xD
Atually, as far as I'm concerned the "results" aren't over until we see NPR in the Red Bull Battle Grounds. That could've been hyped a little more :X Those pros are gonna have a real chance and reason to practice first.
NPR is gonna have a real chance to "make it" there.
For some reason I doubt this map will be played in any major tournament besides Redbull, although I would love to be wrong.
On November 14 2013 22:41 KingLeonardo wrote: Can't believe Habitation Station got second place. Gold minerals at potential third base will be a huge problem in ZvP.
I believe it was only so bad on Metalopolis because of where the gold base was located. Right in the middle with a ton of surface area so zerg was able to get great surrounds / runbys / counter attacks if you were trying to punish that base. With Habitation Station, it's tucked away, a lot more choked off (just a double wide ramp into the base so 2 force fields will cut it off completely) where as it'll probably be a lot more tempting to take the regular mineral 3rd because it's more open and you're expanding away from your opponent.
I could see just doing a warp prism drop on that gold base with 2 sentires & 2 zealots. Dropping in, forcefielding the ramp, warp in 4 more zealots and that base is pretty much dead. Not even gonna mention how blink stalkers would probably wreck that gold base (watchtower gives you a bit of vision as well so you can blink up without needed an obs) as well as pretty much anything else protoss. (Collosus, Templar, any type of air play)
I believe it's a very risky base to take considering how "safe" it actually looks. Then again, it's gold and feels safe due to the small ramp. Risk vs Reward yo.
I'd love to hear some more of your feedback on why you believe it would be so terrible. Please post again here or send me a PM.
On November 14 2013 22:41 KingLeonardo wrote: Can't believe Habitation Station got second place. Gold minerals at potential third base will be a huge problem in ZvP.
I believe it was only so bad on Metalopolis because of where the gold base was located. Right in the middle with a ton of surface area so zerg was able to get great surrounds / runbys / counter attacks if you were trying to punish that base. With Habitation Station, it's tucked away, a lot more choked off (just a double wide ramp into the base so 2 force fields will cut it off completely) where as it'll probably be a lot more tempting to take the regular mineral 3rd because it's more open and you're expanding away from your opponent.
I could see just doing a warp prism drop on that gold base with 2 sentires & 2 zealots. Dropping in, forcefielding the ramp, warp in 4 more zealots and that base is pretty much dead. Not even gonna mention how blink stalkers would probably wreck that gold base (watchtower gives you a bit of vision as well so you can blink up without needed an obs) as well as pretty much anything else protoss. (Collosus, Templar, any type of air play)
I believe it's a very risky base to take considering how "safe" it actually looks. Then again, it's gold and feels safe due to the small ramp. Risk vs Reward yo.
I'd love to hear some more of your feedback on why you believe it would be so terrible. Please post again here or send me a PM.
I don't think the map itself is terrible. I like the layout, it's fresh. I just dislike the idea of gold bases. The problem stems from the fact that a gold base has more value for zerg/terran than for protoss. So a protoss player has to shut down this base, and he has to do it fast. We all know that protoss can't expect to shut it down if there is no commitment to it. So tech will be delayed which, against zerg, leads to all-in-ish situations. Now there are two possibilities. Either it is theoretically possible for the zerg to hold this all in and win the game. Or he isn't and will lose the game. The fact that this gold base is easily scouted leads to the situation wherein this gold base will always or never be taken based on the theoretical feasibility of shutting down the gold base of the zerg. All just because a protoss player will not benefit enough of taking the gold base himself (due to properties of the protoss race). I could be wrong, but it's how I see it.
On November 15 2013 20:59 Qikz wrote: How on earth is a gold base more valuable for a terran and zerg than it is a toss?
Nexus cost minerals, gateways cost minerals and more importantly your most made unit in the entire world, zealots cost 100 minerals each.
Terran players can drop all of their mules on the gold minerals, so mule efficiency is increased while it is balanced based on normal mineral patches.
In ZvP it is not so much the issue that a gold base is way more valuable for zerg than protoss, but rather the fact that zerg takes it way quicker. In the time window between zerg's third on gold and protoss' third on gold, the mineral yield difference will be twice as high on this map as a normal one. So the ability to punish the gold base of the protoss is increased, which could be a problem.
On November 12 2013 20:56 partydude89 wrote: personally i would of loved to see habitation station win. i thought it was a really cool/well designed map
I can only agree... without the lava mechanics New Polaris would hardly place top 4
without 2 legs, messi could hardly be the best football player ... you see how absurd your point is ?
On November 14 2013 22:41 KingLeonardo wrote: Can't believe Habitation Station got second place. Gold minerals at potential third base will be a huge problem in ZvP.
I believe it was only so bad on Metalopolis because of where the gold base was located. Right in the middle with a ton of surface area so zerg was able to get great surrounds / runbys / counter attacks if you were trying to punish that base. With Habitation Station, it's tucked away, a lot more choked off (just a double wide ramp into the base so 2 force fields will cut it off completely) where as it'll probably be a lot more tempting to take the regular mineral 3rd because it's more open and you're expanding away from your opponent.
I could see just doing a warp prism drop on that gold base with 2 sentires & 2 zealots. Dropping in, forcefielding the ramp, warp in 4 more zealots and that base is pretty much dead. Not even gonna mention how blink stalkers would probably wreck that gold base (watchtower gives you a bit of vision as well so you can blink up without needed an obs) as well as pretty much anything else protoss. (Collosus, Templar, any type of air play)
I believe it's a very risky base to take considering how "safe" it actually looks. Then again, it's gold and feels safe due to the small ramp. Risk vs Reward yo.
I'd love to hear some more of your feedback on why you believe it would be so terrible. Please post again here or send me a PM.
I don't think the map itself is terrible. I like the layout, it's fresh. I just dislike the idea of gold bases. The problem stems from the fact that a gold base has more value for zerg/terran than for protoss. So a protoss player has to shut down this base, and he has to do it fast. We all know that protoss can't expect to shut it down if there is no commitment to it. So tech will be delayed which, against zerg, leads to all-in-ish situations. Now there are two possibilities. Either it is theoretically possible for the zerg to hold this all in and win the game. Or he isn't and will lose the game. The fact that this gold base is easily scouted leads to the situation wherein this gold base will always or never be taken based on the theoretical feasibility of shutting down the gold base of the zerg. All just because a protoss player will not benefit enough of taking the gold base himself (due to properties of the protoss race). I could be wrong, but it's how I see it.
Nah, this is legitimate feedback. I appreciate it.
I'm hoping that with the placement of the gold base and how tight/choked off of an area it is that zergs will shy away from it. Honestly I see zergs only taking the gold as a last ditch 5th or 6th base just because of the positioning of it and having to expand closer to your opponent. I do also think that as I stated in my earlier post, was that with only having a 2 wide ramp being the only ground entrance into that gold base, I think protoss should be able to punish that a lot easier. Is a warp prism drop with 2 sentries + 2 zealots, then warping in 4 more zealots that big of a commitment? That base is extremely vulnerable by air/drops so it's doubtful the zerg will scout it in time to get a bunch of units in there before you can drop your 2 sentries and double forcefield it off.
Either way, there didn't seem to be any problems of it during the TLMC tournament and if it gets picked up by any other tournament and there is a problem with that base being gold I can easily tweak it up and change it to a blue base or dustin browder it up and put rocks there.
That gold base on Habitation Station is an absolute forcefield deathtrap for a Zerg. The reason gold bases were a problem in WoL PvZ was that zergs could take the gold base as their natural against a FFE Protoss. Thing is, the current metagame involves almost all gateway expands, and having a MSC out makes rushing a ton of low tech zerg units less effective.
On November 24 2013 04:11 steventcyh wrote: Will it be a problem that the New Polaris Rhapsody is adapted from BW map Polaris Rhapsody? The copyright?
I thought it might have been a problem with the rules for the contest considering it said original work only, so I personally chose not to enter any of my BW remakes. Apparently that wasn't a problem though since they let it through. Using a BW remake in a tournament though... It's never been a problem before afaik, but it might be possible. IIRC all map design rights in Korea have to be given to the creator of the map due to some laws there, so I would assume it would be the property of Kespa or the original map maker. Kespa could make some fuss about it.
Legalities aside, I think we should do a better job crediting the original map creators, kespa and whoever else was involved in the creation of the original BW maps when we do remakes/ports.
IDK if a kespa map design has been used in a non-kespa tournament since kespa switched to SC2. Some had been earlier but it's possible they wouldn't have really cared or payed attention then but could still make a fuss now.
Crossfire is an interesting example as well, being a blizzard-made map based on a kespa design.
EPT
Congratulations to the winners, and looking forward to the RB battle grounds!
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/nprlava.jpg)
