EPT[D] SC2 what I call the juggle effect - Page 2
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
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DinosaurPoop
687 Posts
On November 11 2013 23:33 KingAlphard wrote: At low level of play, cheese is very effective, because most of the players are completely clueless while "cheesers" execute a strategy that has been proved to work. I don't think this is wrong, your opponents were smarter than you because they learnt a strategy while you didn't. You shouldn't expect to win if you don't even put enough effort to learn a simple build. At higher level of play, people know how to counter cheese, therefore pulling them off requires a lot of skill (although a bit different than the one you need in the lategame, depending on the kind of build), so there shouldn't be any complaint about that in this case either. This. Just this. Holding off cheese teaches you that to win, you don't need the opponent to play the way you want him to, you win with precise scouting, good star sense, sheer mechanics, and knowing when a decision is good but one second later it is not. | ||
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schwarzer
Argentina25 Posts
On November 11 2013 23:54 Salient wrote: The thing is that SC2 is very fast. Battles can end in a second, etc. Also the units do so much damage so quickly. Compare SC2 to a (probably too) slow RTS like Age of Empires 2. You really couldn't lose the game in one second or one battle. The game speed was slower, DPS was lower, the maps were gigantic, and you had powerful defensive shooting buildings. There was a strong defenders advantage, but the maps forced you to reall spread out. Thus "raiding" isolated resource collection sites was the main focus in the early game -- not outright kills. The majority of players I invited to play found this to be the main problem, instead of cheese. The game is just too fast for them, specially when playing against a zerg. Also, as you said, game is set to be a battleground when low-hp units do huge damage, so it's not like in WC3 that you can nerf cheese and have a slow paced game. It is sad, I would like my friends who play Dota and LoL to play with me. But as LaLuSh said, 1v1 is not aimed for casual gamers or for those who seek instant gratification (like you feel when you play a FPS, grab a gun and start killing people). The learning curve is really tough at the beginning. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On November 11 2013 23:25 NarAliya wrote: The juggle effect is when scrub Terrans who qq'd through WoL's entirety, got the ridiculous Widow Mine and are now running amok in HoTS ladder with their delusions of grandeur and dreams of being "pro" just because they stimmed some marines. People will then quickly realize that they're all gutter and Blizzard will respond with a heavy nerf hammer over the next couple of patches. We will then have yet another thread saying "Where have all the Terrans gone?". Then after much tears, LoTV will be released with Terran getting Stim for free (or some shit like that) and the cycle continues. That is chasing people from the game and causing the juggle effect. This post is like living proof for the thread lol I like cheese in pro games, it's exciting, provided is relatively rare. As for cheese in "casual"games, i think there are multiple angles to this. For one thing a lot of people are not "switched on" in the early game...it's like a tacit agreement that there will be no fighting in the early game, and when someone breaks that "agrement" it's on with the insults and balance whining, like the poster i quoted lol The guy that used to worker rush proved this quite well. Another angle to this is that SC2 is very unforgiving a lot of the time. Oracles, baneling, firebat drops, Immortals (if you play mech) can make you loose the game for just one or two seconds of not paying attention. So is it the speed of the game that is too fast or the very hard counter system that is in place, or something else, fuck knows... | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
You have that problem in every game that does not include a massive "defenders advantage" in early game. It's like that in most big RTS games: tower rushes - AoE, Starcraft, Warcraft proxy production - AoE, Starcraft, Warcraft, CnC using starting money only on units and no macro/tech - six pool, every CnC ever made etc. etc. etc. But even if we look beyond RTS games, there are immidiatly some rush strategies in any other game that invovles how different players have to distribute their of attention/resources and some just put everything into offense early. From just plainly ganking/overrunning spread out opponents as a team in a shooter or MoBA to spike-builds in Guild/Clan Wars of MMORPGs. All of that stuff is quite easy to learn but requires exact planning and good gameknowledge to learn to defend it. That being said, yes, Strategy games like Starcraft suffer probably inherently more from it, since there are very few mechansism you can fall back on. Like in a shooter you lose a map, which isn't tragic, or in a Moba the opponent gets a tiny bit stronger because they got a kill, but they still can't immidiatly push into your base and do massively more damage. I guess there is a lack of good early game mechanics that have a good balance between allowing aggression, but not outright ending the game in RTS games. Base towers, easier scouting early on (or no need for it, by revealing enemy stuff), positional advantages for the defender, etc. But then again, it has to be balanced very well so that interactive play is still possible/required/promoted, which I guess is the crux with the whole thing and why most developers skip that kind of stuff. In SC2 you can find such stuff in the likes of salvageable bunkers (nerfed because "free", "reactionary" bunkers promoted early massing of such defenses), the Mothership Core (tinkered around a ton until blizzard thought they got it's powerlevel right... and many players would say that it denies aggressive play way too much), the creep/crawler mechanisms (one of the huge reasons for BL/Infestor and swarm host turtling, since you get a semimobile army of basedefenses, which promotes turtling since it doesn't cost supply). Basically all such stuff (queens, tanks...) has been tinkered around with at some point, because blizzard felt it was too strong at denying attacks, or didn't do it's job sufficiently and the race had too much trouble with cheeses. | ||
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angrybacon
United States98 Posts
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
On November 11 2013 23:25 TheManInBlack wrote: The juggle effect is when scrub Terrans who qq'd through WoL's entirety, got the ridiculous Widow Mine and are now running amok in HoTS ladder with their delusions of grandeur and dreams of being "pro" just because they stimmed some marines. People will then quickly realize that they're all gutter and Blizzard will respond with a heavy nerf hammer over the next couple of patches. We will then have yet another thread saying "Where have all the Terrans gone?". Then after much tears, LoTV will be released with Terran getting Stim for free (or some shit like that) and the cycle continues. That is chasing people from the game and causing the juggle effect. User was temp banned for this post. LOL Sorry but I called it (see the Designated Balance thread for context). If I'm infringing on any rules then honestly I apologize. I don't want to be warned or banned again, I just thought that this was funny. I know the post I quoted is pretty much troll bait but it happened just as I said it would. I want to know if this really is a cycle and is causing a huge downturn in spectator ship and casuals/new players playing the game. What are your thoughts? | ||
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thezanursic
5490 Posts
Even BW doesn't equivalate when it comes to killing yout opponent so fast. I mean yes a myriad of proxies + some specific cheeses, but that usually involves some ctrl not flying a unit over the mineral and calling gg, but more importantly SC2 doesn't have tbe equivalent of hunters to ease new players in. | ||
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