TLO, HerO, HuK, Demuslim, Suppy on WCS 2013 & 2014

On October 25 2013 12:51 Slasher wrote:
A certain Blizzard member deleted me off Skype today after showing him this video.

On October 25 2013 12:51 Slasher wrote:
A certain Blizzard member deleted me off Skype today after showing him this video.

On October 25 2013 12:51 Slasher wrote:
A certain Blizzard member deleted me off Skype today after showing him this video.

On October 25 2013 12:51 Slasher wrote:
A certain Blizzard member deleted me off Skype today after showing him this video.

On October 25 2013 13:04 Pandain wrote:
The Life segment is not in this video, right? It's in the other, because I can't find life in here only Curious .

Oh it's in the last 5 seconds, lol @ response

Nearly unanimously, the players said they would like some type of region locking for 2014, including the Korean players.

On October 25 2013 12:51 Slasher wrote:
A certain Blizzard member deleted me off Skype today after showing him this video.

On October 25 2013 12:51 Slasher wrote:
A certain Blizzard member deleted me off Skype today after showing him this video.

On October 25 2013 14:00 ChoDing wrote:
region lock...

why u so scared? lol....

i agree but its just foreigners are so scared of koreans...
why dont u all practice more?

On October 25 2013 13:46 Plexa wrote:
That seems pretty misleading to me. I didn't see any of the Koreans say that they would like region locking. The only one to make reference was Hero, who said it was a system that benefited him and not foreigners (which isn't the same as asking for a region lock). The Koreans mostly complained about reductions in prize pool and increasingly limited options within Korea. Again, not the same as a region lock (and it's not unreasonable to expect that prize pool inside Korea won't change much under a region lock, if anything the amount of money earned by Koreans will decrease overall).

Hell, Hyun even said that he hope things don't change because it will screw over a bunch of Koreans.

qxc's opinion on WCS was interesting and well thought out. Clever guy!

On October 25 2013 13:46 Plexa wrote:
That seems pretty misleading to me. I didn't see any of the Koreans say that they would like region locking. The only one to make reference was Hero, who said it was a system that benefited him and not foreigners (which isn't the same as asking for a region lock). The Koreans mostly complained about reductions in prize pool and increasingly limited options within Korea. Again, not the same as a region lock (and it's not unreasonable to expect that prize pool inside Korea won't change much under a region lock, if anything the amount of money earned by Koreans will decrease overall).

Hell, Hyun even said that he hope things don't change because it will screw over a bunch of Koreans.

qxc's opinion on WCS was interesting and well thought out. Clever guy!

On October 25 2013 13:51 Pandain wrote:
Slasher was the Life answer focused around region-locking or WCS as a whole?

On October 25 2013 13:06 stuchiu wrote:


Burned a bridge. True journalism reached.

On October 25 2013 15:17 gosublade wrote:
Isnt the problem here that forigners just suck?

On October 25 2013 15:24 Doublemint wrote:


#fuckslasher4trueEsportsJournalism.

I loved Life's last line lol.





The problem is an uneven playing field. Yes foreigners need to step it up, but that is not easily possible when Koreans have the best practice and training environment at their doorstep. While the EU and NA server are decent, it's child's play in comparison.

Apart from the residency region lock idea, what about if Blizzard actually opens another ladder realm? It worked during the HotS beta, why not make it more competitive that way? I remember Grubby praising the great practice he got during Beta because he also got to play against all the good Koreans. I think that would make a huge impact for the better with relatively little efforts needed by Blizzard.

On October 25 2013 12:51 Slasher wrote:
A certain Blizzard member deleted me off Skype today after showing him this video.

On October 25 2013 12:51 Slasher wrote:
A certain Blizzard member deleted me off Skype today after showing him this video.

On October 25 2013 16:27 rename wrote:


Well TBH I'd delete people from my skype who spam me with video interviews with ads too.
Where is the transcript?


edit: i understand creating transcripts requires more effort, and video ads generate more money - but if you really wanted to help that blizzard employee with player insight, you should not make them waste their time on your ads and videos and get them a text version.

On October 25 2013 12:51 Slasher wrote:
A certain Blizzard member deleted me off Skype today after showing him this video.

On October 26 2013 00:56 Huragius wrote:
All I want a little bit of consistency from majority of posters considering this issue.
So when a female-only tournament/cup comes out, they say it's great because it will allow to grow female scene (even thou more skilled male players can't get the money they would deserve more) which is kinda true. It's a tricky question if we start to think if it's right or wrong.
But when we talk about region lock, these same people say that there is absolutely no need for it because foreigners just need to practice more. While this WCS system hurts EU/NA scene a lot more, and it's harder for foreigners to catch up korens in skill (because SK has a lot more experience and infrastructure for professional gaming and only hope to compete is to go to train in korea) than females to catch up males (they train on same server with same tools, opportunities and psychological inferiority feeling they would feel with male based audience is very similar how foreigners feel inferior against koreans)- they don't want the region lock.
I don't like bringing these points out, but this hypocrisy is kinda annoying.

On October 25 2013 14:14 vesicular wrote:
Per QXC's point, they should have a mini-WCS that lets you play into Challenger league. IE, several short weekend tournaments where you accumulate points with the highest point total being seeded into Challenger for that season. This allows Code B type players to be able to play more games, cream to rise to the top, less "luck of the draw" based, more for fans to watch and perhaps ends up giving us better quality Challenger games as a result. This could be done for all regions including Korea.

On October 25 2013 14:41 Yhamm wrote:
NA players ask for region lock and Korean think it's fine how it is and even ask more money. not really surprising to be honest

I like the idea to use ladder and that Oz wish there was more tournaments in Korea.

On October 25 2013 12:51 Slasher wrote:
A certain Blizzard member deleted me off Skype today after showing him this video.

On October 26 2013 00:59 StarStruck wrote:


Ha ha ha. Oh lordy.



I rather not rehash the same old arguments. There is hypocrisy throughout the whole scene and if you want my take on the formats just read a few of my recent posts in my history for an explanation on why some of the things like region locking are bad. Good luck calling me a hypocrite because I never embraced female only tournaments. Newsflash: they get really shitty exposure.

On October 26 2013 01:07 geokilla wrote:

Rob Simpson?

On October 26 2013 01:10 Huragius wrote:


And I'm not calling you a hypocrite, because you are being consistent and rational. The issure I talked about was how people tend to judge things differently based on their feelings on different social groups. It would still be okay, since these questions are never just black or white but at least they could explain why they think so.

On October 26 2013 01:50 Dingodile wrote:
Do you really need a permission from a blizzard member for before you can share your stuff to the community (like this video)?
Is this common or is this video an exception?

On October 26 2013 02:39 teddyoojo wrote:
im so surprised, ppl that would be favoured by a region lock are in favour of a region lock and those who wouldnt, arent.

On October 26 2013 00:56 Huragius wrote:
All I want a little bit of consistency from majority of posters considering this issue.
So when a female-only tournament/cup comes out, they say it's great because it will allow to grow female scene (even thou more skilled male players can't get the money they would deserve more) which is kinda true. It's a tricky question if we start to think if it's right or wrong.
But when we talk about region lock, these same people say that there is absolutely no need for it because foreigners just need to practice more. While this WCS system hurts EU/NA scene a lot more, and it's harder for foreigners to catch up korens in skill (because SK has a lot more experience and infrastructure for professional gaming and only hope to compete is to go to train in korea) than females to catch up males (they train on same server with same tools, opportunities and psychological inferiority feeling they would feel with male based audience is very similar how foreigners feel inferior against koreans)- they don't want the region lock.
I don't like bringing these points out, but this hypocrisy is kinda annoying.

On October 26 2013 02:54 vthree wrote:


What if the female had just as many tournaments with the same prize pool? I don't think the issue is with region lock as that there isn't enough prize money and tournaments in Korea.

On October 25 2013 13:46 Plexa wrote:
qxc's opinion on WCS was interesting and well thought out. Clever guy!

On October 26 2013 06:22 Drake wrote:


sounds like no region lock coming then ? ...
if rly i stop watching its only korean in the end but worse then gsl was in past

On October 26 2013 07:22 lamprey1 wrote:
i love how HuK exposed the money issue.
Blizzard support for SC2 is down folks.

On October 26 2013 07:37 Sub40APM wrote:

HuK "Ya, I liked how there were regional storylines. Like remember when US had...Idra...and...whoeverelse" yep, those valuable storylines.

On October 26 2013 07:39 neptunusfisk wrote:
lol so many sad, hurt foreigners




hahaha yeah, spot on! (who remembers last years WCS? seriously? i only remember some awesome kr pvp and then two days worth of parting soul train pushing noobs into the ground)

On October 26 2013 06:22 Drake wrote:


sounds like no region lock coming then ? ...
if rly i stop watching its only korean in the end but worse then gsl was in past

On October 26 2013 07:50 Sub40APM wrote:

ya i mean they really let the cat out of the bag when they say 'too many koreans, and i cant beat them all' and then the good old self justification 'even if i was korean it would be impossible to win'

On October 26 2013 06:57 SCST wrote:


I highly doubt region lock is coming. I've come to learn over the years that these guys would much rather attempt to preserve their sense of righteousness than do what the community wants and the industry requires.

This isn't a battle to decide what's best for Starcraft 2 - the solutions are obvious. Rather, this is a battle to preserve the ego's of the decision-makers behind WCS who refuse to admit that they've made a mistake.

Also, can't really blame the decision-makers for their stubborness (selfish as it may be), as their jobs may very well depend on continuing the charade that the current system is meeting Blizzard's objectives. Self-preservation is a pretty strong human instinct.

On October 26 2013 09:20 Weird wrote:


Wow, someone really doesn't like Blizzard huh?

I like how instead of trying to backup your claims with facts you just vomit more and more gross generalizations and dumb opinions... Like who are you? Some random dude on an internet forum right? It's a complex situation, but yeah, just hate hate hate, that'll fix things...

Maybe you can give Slasher your skype number to replace the one that he lost from his Blizzard contact, and you two can fix everything huh?

On October 26 2013 11:04 Weird wrote:
Just more vomit.

I'm not defending WCS. I'm just pointing out how you are posting like an angry chimpanzee.

That is all.

Edit: and I'm pretty sure that David Kim is in charge of the balance team, and has nothing to do with tournament structure, but say whatever you want, it's the internet right?

Clown.

On October 26 2013 11:13 SCST wrote:


Cynical yes. Angry, nah. Didn't see me using words like "vomit" in my post, did you? Ha. My post wasn't directed at anyone who posts on these forums. It's just a cynical opinion regarding WCS. Take a deep breath next time, before you get so worked up over a cynical forum post that you just have to try and pick a fight and start your "vomit" campaign on our forums. Lol.

On October 26 2013 11:18 Weird wrote:


So you post on these forums to talk to yourself?

Kinda sad.

Not worked up. just want less stupidity on these forums, more intelligent, well thought out posts, the opposite of the trash that you've shown so far.

I take my leave of this thread.

Good day.

On October 26 2013 11:36 learning88 wrote:
I honestly don't know what to do or how I would revamp the WCS system. But something that I noticed, and maybe this has been asked in this thread is, how does region lock do anything in the grand scheme of things?

So let's say we get people from their regions representing but in the end, the Koreans will probably win just because they are so much better at the game for some strange reason. Advocating for region lock decreases the amount of Koreans in the end but with the current mentality of "Koreans are better," then whoever wins in WCS Korea will pretty much just win the whole tournament.

And this brings me to another point (since I'm in science). Why are Koreans better than foreigners? I highly doubt it's because people born in that region are gifted with a "multitasking gene" in their DNA that makes them far superior and thus they always win. Maybe its their training regimen? I'm pretty detached from the world of progaming so I don't know how many hours Koreans practice versus how many hours foreigners practice but there's something that Koreans are doing right that foreigners are not.

As a spectator and a casual player, I'd rather see good players play, regardless if their Korean or foreigner. I just want to see great games. Region locking would reduce this because most of the best players are from Korea. With region locking, it would be unfair to the Koreans that didn't make it through the WCS Korea because they could probably beat many of the foreigners that make it out of their respective region.

On October 26 2013 11:58 SCST wrote:


How does region locking fix the problem? First let's identify the main problems in order of importance:

1. Viewership: required for sustainability - the money behind the entire industry

2. Growth: everyone likes growth in every possible way


How does region locking address these problems?

1. Storylines: foreigners want to watch other foreigners, even if they lose. This is indisputable. Most people want to watch players they can relate too. How many American's watch Japanese baseball? How many soccer fans from Germany cheer for Brazil? This directly affects the viewership and growth and is the main problem with WCS in my opinion. Sure, we wish we lived in a world where nationality doesn't matter and there are no language barriers. But that isn't the reality we live in.

2. Regional Income: foreigners have long been at a disadvantage to Koreans due to the fact that they can't earn a living off the "chance" that they might win a tournament. There are very few team-houses outside of Korea because the areas are so vastly far apart. Koreans can live in a team-house and (while difficult and camped) survive while playing the game, even if they don't win. The prize pool in WCS is such that if region-locked, foreigners in their respective regions would have a "salary" of sorts to sustain themselves while devoting themselves fully to the game. This will allow them to improve and become better players.

3. International Competition: region-locking would at least allow a diverse, international tournament to occur at the end of the year. Having 100% Koreans at the "World" Championship Series at Blizzcon is a slap in the face to the very idea. Even if foreigners lose - at least they'll have participated in the final event.


Why are Koreans better than foreigners?

Koreans aren't inherently better than foreigners. They have a stronger history playing Starcraft - much more so than foreigners. They are more centralized - team houses are sustainable and players don't have to win in order to devote themselves to the game.


"As a spectator I'd rather see the best players play"

While admirable and I feel the same, it's simply not the way the majority of casual viewership feels. The average foreigner who tunes in once in a while to catch a game doesn't want to see what he/she deems as "generic" Koreans play. That person wants to see players that he/she can relate too and recognize. Someone to cheer for, like Stephano or Naniwa. Most casual viewership doesn't even play the game or know why somebody wins or loses in Starcraft. They just enjoy the thrill of the competition. And that's OK because those are the people who pay the bills.

On October 26 2013 12:15 vthree wrote:


Are you sure people want to watch just foreigners play? Or do they want to watch foreigner vs korean? There were all foreigner groups in challenger league NA and that got low viewership as well. Although it is challenger league so might not indicate as much. But honestly, I don't think too many NA viewers really clamor to see Puck vs Drunkenboi.

On October 26 2013 12:15 vthree wrote:


Are you sure people want to watch just foreigners play? Or do they want to watch foreigner vs korean? There were all foreigner groups in challenger league NA and that got low viewership as well. Although it is challenger league so might not indicate as much. But honestly, I don't think too many NA viewers really clamor to see Puck vs Drunkenboi.

On October 26 2013 11:58 SCST wrote:


First let's identify the main problems:

1. Viewership: required for sustainability - the money behind the entire industry

2. Growth: everyone likes growth in every possible way


How does region locking address these problems?

1. Storylines: foreigners want to watch other foreigners, even if they lose. This is indisputable. Most people want to watch players they can relate too. How many American's watch Japanese baseball? How many soccer fans from Germany cheer for Brazil? This directly affects the viewership and growth and is the main problem with WCS in my opinion. Sure, we wish we lived in a world where nationality doesn't matter and there are no language barriers. But that isn't the reality we live in.

2. Regional Income: foreigners have long been at a disadvantage to Koreans due to the fact that they can't earn a living off the "chance" that they might win a tournament. There are very few team-houses outside of Korea because the areas are so vastly far apart. Koreans can live in a team-house and (while difficult and cramped) survive while playing the game, even if they don't win. The prize pool in WCS is such that if region-locked, foreigners in their respective regions would have a "salary" of sorts to sustain themselves while devoting themselves fully to the game. This will allow them to improve and become better players.

3. International Competition: region-locking would at least allow a diverse, international tournament to occur at the end of the year. Having 100% Koreans at the "World" Championship Series at Blizzcon is a slap in the face to the very idea. Even if foreigners lose - at least they'll have participated in the final event.


Why are Koreans better than foreigners?

Koreans aren't inherently better than foreigners. They have a stronger history playing Starcraft - much more so than foreigners. They are more centralized - team houses are sustainable and players don't have to win in order to devote themselves to the game.

It's also a vicious cycle when it comes to training. Koreans train and ladder with other Koreans. Foreigners have difficulty doing this as laddering on KR is very laggy and at an odd hour. Ever notice how players who go to Korea improve their play? It's because they're playing against better players. Also, Koreans are extremely nationalistic. Naniwa has spoken about this at times (not being able to trust even his own Korean team-mates to reveal his strategies to Korean opponents). Koreans frequently help each other out - they have each other's back regardless of their team affiliation when it comes to beating foreigners. Foreigners don't have any such synergy, in my mind. So how can foreigners ever improve their skill level without training against the hordes of devoted Koreans? Is it surprising that when I watch Demuslim get to #1 on NA ladder that he should lose to his KR opponent in an important tournament? It's not to me, because winning every game on ladder against a foreigner means nothing if you aren't improving your skill by matching up against the best in the world.


"As a spectator I'd rather see the best players play"

While admirable and I feel the same, it's simply not the way the majority of casual viewership feels. The average foreigner who tunes in once in a while to catch a game doesn't want to see what he/she deems as "generic" Koreans play. That person wants to see players that he/she can relate to and recognize. Someone to cheer for, like Stephano or Naniwa. Most casual viewership doesn't even play the game or know why somebody wins or loses in Starcraft. They just enjoy the thrill of the competition. And that's OK because those are the people who pay the bills.

On October 26 2013 11:36 learning88 wrote:
And this brings me to another point (since I'm in science). Why are Koreans better than foreigners? I highly doubt it's because people born in that region are gifted with a "multitasking gene" in their DNA that makes them far superior and thus they always win. Maybe its their training regimen? I'm pretty detached from the world of progaming so I don't know how many hours Koreans practice versus how many hours foreigners practice but there's something that Koreans are doing right that foreigners are not.

On October 25 2013 13:46 Plexa wrote:


qxc's opinion on WCS was interesting and well thought out. Clever guy!

On October 26 2013 02:21 Copymizer wrote:
Certainly a game crisis and decline now, lack of frequent tournaments, WCS is too long, no regionlock, dominating koreans, too little money, lack of consistency...what is actually doing good?