On October 05 2013 04:27 RampancyTW wrote: [quote]Off the top of my head: Burrowed Banelings Widow Mine baits Seeker Missile connections Good phoenix harrass Money storms Doom drops Nydus shenanigans Perfect blink engagement Ultralisk-induced panic Probe sneak-arounds
Lots of great, cool things can happen in a lost game that I appreciate and build on. Sometimes they're things I do, sometimes an opponent pulls off such a ridiculously sick hold or bait or whatever that I just sit there for a few seconds in utter appreciation of the mastery with which I've been killed.
None of that is comparable to a Reaver
Why not? Reavers are cool, but there's nothing that makes them objectively cooler than most of the above.
Burrowed Banelings: Gimmicks that don't work half the time. It's a waste of a player's APM considering how bad automatic unburrowing is.
Widow Mine baits: Basic ling splitting that's pretty uninteresting as Terran doesn't do anything and if zerg fucks up he loses quite a lot.
Seeker Missile connections: Seeker missiles take no skill to utilize, unlike Reavers.
Good phoenix harrass: literally just e + left click.
Money storms: they can be good but with auto-casting it's hard to be impressed with how well they're being used. unlike reavers.
Doom drops: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position.
Nydus shenanigans: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position
Perfect blink engagement: is blinking forward a group of stalkers interesting? pros only do that when the fight is already won.
Ultralisk-induced panic: wut
Probe sneak-arounds: one of the reasons watching protoss can be annoying is that entire strategies can be centered around whether or not the opposing player scouts and finds a pylon in time. if it's found, the strategy is fucked, if it's not found, the strategy can be devasting. that's not interesting that's arguably one of the bullshit aspects of sc2.
I could be wrong but I don't see how any of those are comparable to being able to use a Reaver/Shuttle combo effectively.
Reaver drops: shenanigans relying on player not being to split his stuff and get rid of shuttle. Am i doing it right :3?
I could be wrong as I've never watched Brood War. I was under the impression that entire strategies could revolve around properly using a Reaver and Shuttle.
That doesn't work in SC2 with doom drops or nydus unless it catches the other player by complete surprise.
Well Reavers are a versatile unit. It can used for offensive or defensive purposes at continuous pace w/o having to replete their energy like Storms or just for harassment via Nydus worms. When your Reaver as tech have been exposed, the Terran/Zerg will spend their time on building enough static to defenses with either Turrets or Scourges. This in turn delays the terran's timing push and in Zerg's case, a gas intensive race will have upgrade timing to be postponed. While at it, the Reaver tech is not to be wasted all for naught but with the proper shuttle/reaver micro and ground army troop movement, you can try to kite the army moving forward as much as possible with your ground troop while picking off any reinforcement coming off from the rear and if you are exceptional talented at it, to even dissect the primary army.
TLDR: Yeah basically you grasped the unit's core concepts.
No they are not. They are a straight forward, ground only, superslow siege unit. Nothing more.
Everything else is just the dynamics reaverdrops introduced in the specific setup of BW. We had similar dynamics in different phases of SC2, speedprism immortal drops in PvP and ZvP being the closest ones. They just turned out to not be strong standard options. If we want Protoss to have such dynamics, we shouldn't look out of the window for them, but first of all we should ask why the ones they have are not viable and how to change that.
In comparison to speedprims immortal of the sequel, the Reaver/shuttle play offer much more dimensions while the former does one thing only. Read the above post to get a better understanding of it.
Yes, but that's not "because it's the reaver". It's the whole package of interactions that changed. Meanwhile the immortal/prism combo can't keep up with that, not because it is more onedimensional, but simply because the immortal cannot deal with the hydralisk, zergling and marineplay that your T/Z opponents will use against it. If you balance the immortal that you can combat this kind of gameplay, you will for sure see this kind of gameplay. Meanwhile if you balance the reaver so that bio is viable against it we can't know whether shuttle/reaver play is of any greater use against marines and vikings.
"Yes, but that's not "because it's the reaver". It's the whole package of interactions that changed." Nope " because the immortal cannot deal with the hydralisk, zergling and marineplay that your T/Z opponents will use against it." Hence Reaver's versatility which you were trying to disprove in this post + Show Spoiler +
Completely agree. After not playing sc2 for over a year and not watching any of it for over half a year because of how stale and boring it was I saw bisu streaming bw last week or something. Just watching him micro ~15 dragoons away from vultures+minefields in late game while macroing off 4 bases 2 of which were getting seiged by sea because he desperately could not lose those dragoons filled me with awe that I have never felt watching sc2. He even lost that game like 5 minutes later but it reminded me of why i loved bw so much and how i never felt the same joy watching or playing sc2.
Just as a bit of a curious detail, how many satisfying losing games people have had in SC2?
In BW you can still appreciate loads of small stuff even if you lose. Landing a good scarab or sniping a lurker is still satisfying in a lost game. In SC2 I can't think of any similar experiences.
Off the top of my head: Burrowed Banelings Widow Mine baits Seeker Missile connections Good phoenix harrass Money storms Doom drops Nydus shenanigans Perfect blink engagement Ultralisk-induced panic Probe sneak-arounds
Lots of great, cool things can happen in a lost game that I appreciate and build on. Sometimes they're things I do, sometimes an opponent pulls off such a ridiculously sick hold or bait or whatever that I just sit there for a few seconds in utter appreciation of the mastery with which I've been killed.
None of that is comparable to a Reaver
Why not? Reavers are cool, but there's nothing that makes them objectively cooler than most of the above.
Burrowed Banelings: Gimmicks that don't work half the time. It's a waste of a player's APM considering how bad automatic unburrowing is.
Widow Mine baits: Basic ling splitting that's pretty uninteresting as Terran doesn't do anything and if zerg fucks up he loses quite a lot.
Seeker Missile connections: Seeker missiles take no skill to utilize, unlike Reavers.
Good phoenix harrass: literally just e + left click.
Money storms: they can be good but with auto-casting it's hard to be impressed with how well they're being used. unlike reavers.
Doom drops: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position.
Nydus shenanigans: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position
Perfect blink engagement: is blinking forward a group of stalkers interesting? pros only do that when the fight is already won.
Ultralisk-induced panic: wut
Probe sneak-arounds: one of the reasons watching protoss can be annoying is that entire strategies can be centered around whether or not the opposing player scouts and finds a pylon in time. if it's found, the strategy is fucked, if it's not found, the strategy can be devasting. that's not interesting that's arguably one of the bullshit aspects of sc2.
I could be wrong but I don't see how any of those are comparable to being able to use a Reaver/Shuttle combo effectively.
Reaver drops: shenanigans relying on player not being to split his stuff and get rid of shuttle. Am i doing it right :3?
I could be wrong as I've never watched Brood War. I was under the impression that entire strategies could revolve around properly using a Reaver and Shuttle.
That doesn't work in SC2 with doom drops or nydus unless it catches the other player by complete surprise.
Well Reavers are a versatile unit. It can used for offensive or defensive purposes at continuous pace w/o having to replete their energy like Storms or just for harassment via Nydus worms. When your Reaver as tech have been exposed, the Terran/Zerg will spend their time on building enough static to defenses with either Turrets or Scourges. This in turn delays the terran's timing push and in Zerg's case, a gas intensive race will have upgrade timing to be postponed. While at it, the Reaver tech is not to be wasted all for naught but with the proper shuttle/reaver micro and ground army troop movement, you can try to kite the army moving forward as much as possible with your ground troop while picking off any reinforcement coming off from the rear and if you are exceptional talented at it, to even dissect the primary army.
TLDR: Yeah basically you grasped the unit's core concepts.
No they are not. They are a straight forward, ground only, superslow siege unit. Nothing more.
Everything else is just the dynamics reaverdrops introduced in the specific setup of BW. We had similar dynamics in different phases of SC2, speedprism immortal drops in PvP and ZvP being the closest ones. They just turned out to not be strong standard options. If we want Protoss to have such dynamics, we shouldn't look out of the window for them, but first of all we should ask why the ones they have are not viable and how to change that.
But now you are saying otherwise.
On October 06 2013 00:22 Garmer wrote: it' also "the reaver" trust me, the immortal it's just a thing that shoot , reaver need your attention much more, u must build scarab, backup money for that, shooting with the reaver also require some skill or your scarab will be wasted
actually "its the reaver" that make those drop awesome
reaver, lurker and vulture should not have been touched, 3 units with awesome depth that no other game have
^^This man gets it.
On October 06 2013 00:26 ReachTheSky wrote: Honestly after having met 3/5 hackers in games i've played today, i'd say the fact that there is cheating in this game is the biggest problem of sc2. Blizzard fucked up.
On October 04 2013 12:51 ChoiSulli wrote: Damn I think just referring people to Goldfish' post is all I need to do. Its such a good explanation as to why even though BW is infinetly harder to play, it is so fucking fun and you can feel yourself improving and it is such a rewarding feeling. I want to just make a point about the spectator experience, to me there is no WOW factor in sc2, nothing that impresses since its all fucking easy to do. Oh shit he targeted down the colossus oh shit he empd the entire army oh shit he spread out his death ball. There is more casuals who ladder in sc2 then there ever were in BW... in BW we all accepted we sucked at the game and werent going to be good enough and so we mostly played UMS. But we all fucking tuned in to watch the pros do shit we would never be able to. All you gotta do is go turn on Bisu's stream, first of all there is not anyone else that handsome and there is not anyone else that can play BW that way.
Completely agree. After not playing sc2 for over a year and not watching any of it for over half a year because of how stale and boring it was I saw bisu streaming bw last week or something. Just watching him micro ~15 dragoons away from vultures+minefields in late game while macroing off 4 bases 2 of which were getting seiged by sea because he desperately could not lose those dragoons filled me with awe that I have never felt watching sc2. He even lost that game like 5 minutes later but it reminded me of why i loved bw so much and how i never felt the same joy watching or playing sc2.
Just as a bit of a curious detail, how many satisfying losing games people have had in SC2?
In BW you can still appreciate loads of small stuff even if you lose. Landing a good scarab or sniping a lurker is still satisfying in a lost game. In SC2 I can't think of any similar experiences.
Off the top of my head: Burrowed Banelings Widow Mine baits Seeker Missile connections Good phoenix harrass Money storms Doom drops Nydus shenanigans Perfect blink engagement Ultralisk-induced panic Probe sneak-arounds
Lots of great, cool things can happen in a lost game that I appreciate and build on. Sometimes they're things I do, sometimes an opponent pulls off such a ridiculously sick hold or bait or whatever that I just sit there for a few seconds in utter appreciation of the mastery with which I've been killed.
None of that is comparable to a Reaver
Why not? Reavers are cool, but there's nothing that makes them objectively cooler than most of the above.
Burrowed Banelings: Gimmicks that don't work half the time. It's a waste of a player's APM considering how bad automatic unburrowing is.
Widow Mine baits: Basic ling splitting that's pretty uninteresting as Terran doesn't do anything and if zerg fucks up he loses quite a lot.
Seeker Missile connections: Seeker missiles take no skill to utilize, unlike Reavers.
Good phoenix harrass: literally just e + left click.
Money storms: they can be good but with auto-casting it's hard to be impressed with how well they're being used. unlike reavers.
Doom drops: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position.
Nydus shenanigans: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position
Perfect blink engagement: is blinking forward a group of stalkers interesting? pros only do that when the fight is already won.
Ultralisk-induced panic: wut
Probe sneak-arounds: one of the reasons watching protoss can be annoying is that entire strategies can be centered around whether or not the opposing player scouts and finds a pylon in time. if it's found, the strategy is fucked, if it's not found, the strategy can be devasting. that's not interesting that's arguably one of the bullshit aspects of sc2.
I could be wrong but I don't see how any of those are comparable to being able to use a Reaver/Shuttle combo effectively.
I don't really care about other points etc. but the one thing that really bothers me is the bolded one. you don't need to unburrow for the banelings to explode
baneling mines still need to be set off manually or they don't do enough damage to justify their cost. that's basically what i meant
On October 04 2013 12:51 ChoiSulli wrote: Damn I think just referring people to Goldfish' post is all I need to do. Its such a good explanation as to why even though BW is infinetly harder to play, it is so fucking fun and you can feel yourself improving and it is such a rewarding feeling. I want to just make a point about the spectator experience, to me there is no WOW factor in sc2, nothing that impresses since its all fucking easy to do. Oh shit he targeted down the colossus oh shit he empd the entire army oh shit he spread out his death ball. There is more casuals who ladder in sc2 then there ever were in BW... in BW we all accepted we sucked at the game and werent going to be good enough and so we mostly played UMS. But we all fucking tuned in to watch the pros do shit we would never be able to. All you gotta do is go turn on Bisu's stream, first of all there is not anyone else that handsome and there is not anyone else that can play BW that way.
Completely agree. After not playing sc2 for over a year and not watching any of it for over half a year because of how stale and boring it was I saw bisu streaming bw last week or something. Just watching him micro ~15 dragoons away from vultures+minefields in late game while macroing off 4 bases 2 of which were getting seiged by sea because he desperately could not lose those dragoons filled me with awe that I have never felt watching sc2. He even lost that game like 5 minutes later but it reminded me of why i loved bw so much and how i never felt the same joy watching or playing sc2.
Just as a bit of a curious detail, how many satisfying losing games people have had in SC2?
In BW you can still appreciate loads of small stuff even if you lose. Landing a good scarab or sniping a lurker is still satisfying in a lost game. In SC2 I can't think of any similar experiences.
Off the top of my head: Burrowed Banelings Widow Mine baits Seeker Missile connections Good phoenix harrass Money storms Doom drops Nydus shenanigans Perfect blink engagement Ultralisk-induced panic Probe sneak-arounds
Lots of great, cool things can happen in a lost game that I appreciate and build on. Sometimes they're things I do, sometimes an opponent pulls off such a ridiculously sick hold or bait or whatever that I just sit there for a few seconds in utter appreciation of the mastery with which I've been killed.
None of that is comparable to a Reaver
Why not? Reavers are cool, but there's nothing that makes them objectively cooler than most of the above.
Burrowed Banelings: Gimmicks that don't work half the time. It's a waste of a player's APM considering how bad automatic unburrowing is.
Widow Mine baits: Basic ling splitting that's pretty uninteresting as Terran doesn't do anything and if zerg fucks up he loses quite a lot.
Seeker Missile connections: Seeker missiles take no skill to utilize, unlike Reavers.
Good phoenix harrass: literally just e + left click.
Money storms: they can be good but with auto-casting it's hard to be impressed with how well they're being used. unlike reavers.
Doom drops: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position.
Nydus shenanigans: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position
Perfect blink engagement: is blinking forward a group of stalkers interesting? pros only do that when the fight is already won.
Ultralisk-induced panic: wut
Probe sneak-arounds: one of the reasons watching protoss can be annoying is that entire strategies can be centered around whether or not the opposing player scouts and finds a pylon in time. if it's found, the strategy is fucked, if it's not found, the strategy can be devasting. that's not interesting that's arguably one of the bullshit aspects of sc2.
I could be wrong but I don't see how any of those are comparable to being able to use a Reaver/Shuttle combo effectively.
Reaver drops: shenanigans relying on player not being to split his stuff and get rid of shuttle. Am i doing it right :3?
I could be wrong as I've never watched Brood War. I was under the impression that entire strategies could revolve around properly using a Reaver and Shuttle.
That doesn't work in SC2 with doom drops or nydus unless it catches the other player by complete surprise.
Well Reavers are a versatile unit. It can used for offensive or defensive purposes at continuous pace w/o having to replete their energy like Storms or just for harassment via Nydus worms. When your Reaver as tech have been exposed, the Terran/Zerg will spend their time on building enough static to defenses with either Turrets or Scourges. This in turn delays the terran's timing push and in Zerg's case, a gas intensive race will have upgrade timing to be postponed. While at it, the Reaver tech is not to be wasted all for naught but with the proper shuttle/reaver micro and ground army troop movement, you can try to kite the army moving forward as much as possible with your ground troop while picking off any reinforcement coming off from the rear and if you are exceptional talented at it, to even dissect the primary army.
TLDR: Yeah basically you grasped the unit's core concepts.
On October 04 2013 12:51 ChoiSulli wrote: Damn I think just referring people to Goldfish' post is all I need to do. Its such a good explanation as to why even though BW is infinetly harder to play, it is so fucking fun and you can feel yourself improving and it is such a rewarding feeling. I want to just make a point about the spectator experience, to me there is no WOW factor in sc2, nothing that impresses since its all fucking easy to do. Oh shit he targeted down the colossus oh shit he empd the entire army oh shit he spread out his death ball. There is more casuals who ladder in sc2 then there ever were in BW... in BW we all accepted we sucked at the game and werent going to be good enough and so we mostly played UMS. But we all fucking tuned in to watch the pros do shit we would never be able to. All you gotta do is go turn on Bisu's stream, first of all there is not anyone else that handsome and there is not anyone else that can play BW that way.
Completely agree. After not playing sc2 for over a year and not watching any of it for over half a year because of how stale and boring it was I saw bisu streaming bw last week or something. Just watching him micro ~15 dragoons away from vultures+minefields in late game while macroing off 4 bases 2 of which were getting seiged by sea because he desperately could not lose those dragoons filled me with awe that I have never felt watching sc2. He even lost that game like 5 minutes later but it reminded me of why i loved bw so much and how i never felt the same joy watching or playing sc2.
Just as a bit of a curious detail, how many satisfying losing games people have had in SC2?
In BW you can still appreciate loads of small stuff even if you lose. Landing a good scarab or sniping a lurker is still satisfying in a lost game. In SC2 I can't think of any similar experiences.
Off the top of my head: Burrowed Banelings Widow Mine baits Seeker Missile connections Good phoenix harrass Money storms Doom drops Nydus shenanigans Perfect blink engagement Ultralisk-induced panic Probe sneak-arounds
Lots of great, cool things can happen in a lost game that I appreciate and build on. Sometimes they're things I do, sometimes an opponent pulls off such a ridiculously sick hold or bait or whatever that I just sit there for a few seconds in utter appreciation of the mastery with which I've been killed.
None of that is comparable to a Reaver
Why not? Reavers are cool, but there's nothing that makes them objectively cooler than most of the above.
Burrowed Banelings: Gimmicks that don't work half the time. It's a waste of a player's APM considering how bad automatic unburrowing is.
Widow Mine baits: Basic ling splitting that's pretty uninteresting as Terran doesn't do anything and if zerg fucks up he loses quite a lot.
Seeker Missile connections: Seeker missiles take no skill to utilize, unlike Reavers.
Good phoenix harrass: literally just e + left click.
Money storms: they can be good but with auto-casting it's hard to be impressed with how well they're being used. unlike reavers.
Doom drops: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position.
Nydus shenanigans: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position
Perfect blink engagement: is blinking forward a group of stalkers interesting? pros only do that when the fight is already won.
Ultralisk-induced panic: wut
Probe sneak-arounds: one of the reasons watching protoss can be annoying is that entire strategies can be centered around whether or not the opposing player scouts and finds a pylon in time. if it's found, the strategy is fucked, if it's not found, the strategy can be devasting. that's not interesting that's arguably one of the bullshit aspects of sc2.
I could be wrong but I don't see how any of those are comparable to being able to use a Reaver/Shuttle combo effectively.
Reaver drops: shenanigans relying on player not being to split his stuff and get rid of shuttle. Am i doing it right :3?
Because of the reasons above you can't exactly simply decide to get rid of the shuttle by constructing Turret, Wraith as Terran. Or in Zerg's case, you will be most likely faced against a Corsair heavy army which mitigate these threat pretty handily with their splash dmg and if you commit into Mutalisks/Scourge forces, that's a do-or-die all-in that most player would want to avoid. You want to minimize the number necessary to defend against shuttle/reaver harassment in order to persist with your regular build/timing.
Now this itself is something that one must train vigorously to carefully position their turrets to inflict the maximum dmg output and placing scourges at correct places. And one thing to note about Scourge is their low sight range so you had to pay close focus to the outskirt of your bases to spot those harassment. This brings in the BW pathing system into the arguement that because of its nature, even if you could spot the shuttle, the shuttle could wiggle around a bit to mess up the targeting AI of Scourges and would not land their hit. This adds another dimension to the game for shuttle escapes.
And if you are Terran player, you usually don't really want to spread out your guys as much possible when pushing toward the Protoss player because it creates a gap between the tanks which shuttles could comfortably Zealot bomb you with low risks. So the idea is to construct Turrets at key locations while leapfrogging but you should not get too ahead of your turret placement by expressing too much avarice. This requires tons of gamesense to pull it off.
The beauty of BW is that while that the opponents might create a certain "OP forces" to be reckoned with, if you have the enough skills, one can funnel their way out of a tough situation with the careful planning and dexterous execution. And this entire explanation simply briefly gloss over a combo of two units and angles around it. So its definitely something you should sit down in a calm manner, not to be hotheaded out of frustration, and learn how to play/understand the game.
Just adding on, people brought a lot of creativity into reavers throughout the life of BW. That unit wasn't just a drop-and-forget unit like mm drop, mine drops, ling runby and other methods of harrassment in SC2. It was a intricate unit with great depth into it. Reaver drops were abused before patch due to their immense power, but even after the nerf which caused reaver to have a delay before firing, people still developed new ways to use it. For example, after mech became the standard play for TvP and learnt to spread their tanks throughout the base (abusing reaver's weakness of requiring a delay before it can fire after being dropped) to protect from reaver drops, protoss responded by loading the shuttle with zealots, and drawing seige tanks fire with zealot before unloading the reaver and destroying the tank. It just kept evolving. Also, Reaver drops actually take skill for both sides, defending side requires micro to reduce damage while the attacking side requires micro to deal damage. It was a micro battle. Because reaver had a delay before firing its scarab, it gave the opponent time to split up his workers and run away. Then the protoss player could decide which unit to hit with the scarab, and from which direction to maximize his damage. Even when the terran didn't notice and gave the reaver free shot, it wasn't as simple as a-moving. If you just a-moved the scarab would just detonate on the nearest worker, only killing 1-4 depending on how saturated the mineral field was. You had to find the best spot to detonate it for maximum damage, and this doesn't necessarily mean where the workers are most clumped up. Because the splash damage in BW was "directional" instead of SCII's "circular" splash, you had a lot to consider. Plus, if the workers ran away, you could chase down by microing the shuttle and the reaver, but that also took apm and some skill to use. Now compare this to forms of harrassment existing in SCII. MM drop : stim, a-move to destroy mineral line. Even when the workers try to run away stimmed marines and marauders move god damn fast so you can chase down and kill everything until the army comes to defend. Mine drop : burrow in mineral line, forget about it Ling runby : ignore and run right into mineral line, then hold position. If workers attempt to run just a-move into them and the lings will clean them for you. Phoenix : e -> left click Hellion harrassment still takes skill in a sense that you have to position your hellions to get the maximum damage, but still it isn't as in depth as this one.
I could also say about how vultures brought depth into game for terrans on map control, and the lurkers too.
On October 04 2013 12:51 ChoiSulli wrote: Damn I think just referring people to Goldfish' post is all I need to do. Its such a good explanation as to why even though BW is infinetly harder to play, it is so fucking fun and you can feel yourself improving and it is such a rewarding feeling. I want to just make a point about the spectator experience, to me there is no WOW factor in sc2, nothing that impresses since its all fucking easy to do. Oh shit he targeted down the colossus oh shit he empd the entire army oh shit he spread out his death ball. There is more casuals who ladder in sc2 then there ever were in BW... in BW we all accepted we sucked at the game and werent going to be good enough and so we mostly played UMS. But we all fucking tuned in to watch the pros do shit we would never be able to. All you gotta do is go turn on Bisu's stream, first of all there is not anyone else that handsome and there is not anyone else that can play BW that way.
Completely agree. After not playing sc2 for over a year and not watching any of it for over half a year because of how stale and boring it was I saw bisu streaming bw last week or something. Just watching him micro ~15 dragoons away from vultures+minefields in late game while macroing off 4 bases 2 of which were getting seiged by sea because he desperately could not lose those dragoons filled me with awe that I have never felt watching sc2. He even lost that game like 5 minutes later but it reminded me of why i loved bw so much and how i never felt the same joy watching or playing sc2.
Just as a bit of a curious detail, how many satisfying losing games people have had in SC2?
In BW you can still appreciate loads of small stuff even if you lose. Landing a good scarab or sniping a lurker is still satisfying in a lost game. In SC2 I can't think of any similar experiences.
Off the top of my head: Burrowed Banelings Widow Mine baits Seeker Missile connections Good phoenix harrass Money storms Doom drops Nydus shenanigans Perfect blink engagement Ultralisk-induced panic Probe sneak-arounds
Lots of great, cool things can happen in a lost game that I appreciate and build on. Sometimes they're things I do, sometimes an opponent pulls off such a ridiculously sick hold or bait or whatever that I just sit there for a few seconds in utter appreciation of the mastery with which I've been killed.
None of that is comparable to a Reaver
Why not? Reavers are cool, but there's nothing that makes them objectively cooler than most of the above.
Burrowed Banelings: Gimmicks that don't work half the time. It's a waste of a player's APM considering how bad automatic unburrowing is.
Widow Mine baits: Basic ling splitting that's pretty uninteresting as Terran doesn't do anything and if zerg fucks up he loses quite a lot.
Seeker Missile connections: Seeker missiles take no skill to utilize, unlike Reavers.
Good phoenix harrass: literally just e + left click.
Money storms: they can be good but with auto-casting it's hard to be impressed with how well they're being used. unlike reavers.
Doom drops: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position.
Nydus shenanigans: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position
Perfect blink engagement: is blinking forward a group of stalkers interesting? pros only do that when the fight is already won.
Ultralisk-induced panic: wut
Probe sneak-arounds: one of the reasons watching protoss can be annoying is that entire strategies can be centered around whether or not the opposing player scouts and finds a pylon in time. if it's found, the strategy is fucked, if it's not found, the strategy can be devasting. that's not interesting that's arguably one of the bullshit aspects of sc2.
I could be wrong but I don't see how any of those are comparable to being able to use a Reaver/Shuttle combo effectively.
I don't really care about other points etc. but the one thing that really bothers me is the bolded one. you don't need to unburrow for the banelings to explode
baneling mines still need to be set off manually or they don't do enough damage to justify their cost. that's basically what i meant
set off manually is exactly why it is good, it really shows if the player has map awareness and is waiting on purpose etc moon denotation for example is one of the biggest fail in sc2 history but that's why its' awesome
I dare to argue, that you can micro everything everywhere. The question is A. benefit of it; B. time to do it. I may argue, that BW gave you both, SC2 certainly lacks B (no clue on A because B).
Sadly, I feel like the majority of the issues are within the game itself and that is out of the community's hands. Blizzard has proven again and again that they cannot make SC2 a fun game like BW was.
But the Hearthstone team and the new D3 team are looking up so maybe we'll see some changes.
On October 06 2013 03:05 Novalisk wrote: Sadly, I feel like the majority of the issues are within the game itself and that is out of the community's hands. Blizzard has proven again and again that they cannot make SC2 a fun game like BW was.
But the Hearthstone team and the new D3 team are looking up so maybe we'll see some changes.
To make SC2 as fun as BW, you will need to build a time machine and do at least 3 time travels.
On October 04 2013 12:51 ChoiSulli wrote: Damn I think just referring people to Goldfish' post is all I need to do. Its such a good explanation as to why even though BW is infinetly harder to play, it is so fucking fun and you can feel yourself improving and it is such a rewarding feeling. I want to just make a point about the spectator experience, to me there is no WOW factor in sc2, nothing that impresses since its all fucking easy to do. Oh shit he targeted down the colossus oh shit he empd the entire army oh shit he spread out his death ball. There is more casuals who ladder in sc2 then there ever were in BW... in BW we all accepted we sucked at the game and werent going to be good enough and so we mostly played UMS. But we all fucking tuned in to watch the pros do shit we would never be able to. All you gotta do is go turn on Bisu's stream, first of all there is not anyone else that handsome and there is not anyone else that can play BW that way.
Completely agree. After not playing sc2 for over a year and not watching any of it for over half a year because of how stale and boring it was I saw bisu streaming bw last week or something. Just watching him micro ~15 dragoons away from vultures+minefields in late game while macroing off 4 bases 2 of which were getting seiged by sea because he desperately could not lose those dragoons filled me with awe that I have never felt watching sc2. He even lost that game like 5 minutes later but it reminded me of why i loved bw so much and how i never felt the same joy watching or playing sc2.
Just as a bit of a curious detail, how many satisfying losing games people have had in SC2?
In BW you can still appreciate loads of small stuff even if you lose. Landing a good scarab or sniping a lurker is still satisfying in a lost game. In SC2 I can't think of any similar experiences.
Off the top of my head: Burrowed Banelings Widow Mine baits Seeker Missile connections Good phoenix harrass Money storms Doom drops Nydus shenanigans Perfect blink engagement Ultralisk-induced panic Probe sneak-arounds
Lots of great, cool things can happen in a lost game that I appreciate and build on. Sometimes they're things I do, sometimes an opponent pulls off such a ridiculously sick hold or bait or whatever that I just sit there for a few seconds in utter appreciation of the mastery with which I've been killed.
None of that is comparable to a Reaver
Why not? Reavers are cool, but there's nothing that makes them objectively cooler than most of the above.
Burrowed Banelings: Gimmicks that don't work half the time. It's a waste of a player's APM considering how bad automatic unburrowing is. Not even remotely. I'll spend 5 minutes in a game with sets of burrowed banelings around trying to bait a marine army into them. Harrassing with mutas, picking off workers, sacking lings to do economic damage, etc. Things that limit available scans and goad the Terran into eventually following my army or trying to do some counter-pushing.
Widow Mine baits: Basic ling splitting that's pretty uninteresting as Terran doesn't do anything and if zerg fucks up he loses quite a lot. Doesn't have to be TvZ. Same concept as the banelings above, but with Terran units.
Seeker Missile connections: Seeker missiles take no skill to utilize, unlike Reavers.
Good phoenix harrass: literally just e + left click. Have you seen some of the games lately where despite there being 2 spores and 1+ queen per base, the Phoenixing player manages to do over 1000 resources worth of harassment damage with great control?
Money storms: they can be good but with auto-casting it's hard to be impressed with how well they're being used. unlike reavers. You can spot a huge difference in the top pro storms and the Joe Schmoe Foreigner storms.
Doom drops: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position. Doesn't make them any less fun, even if you lose.
Nydus shenanigans: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position Doesn't make them any less fun, even if you lose.
Perfect blink engagement: is blinking forward a group of stalkers interesting? pros only do that when the fight is already won. Uhhhhhhhh. What? How do you get "blinking forward a group of stalkers" out of "Perfect blink engagement"?
Ultralisk-induced panic: wut You barely hold over the course of 6, 7 minutes just in time to get out a wave of ultralisks. Even if I eventually lose the game, it's pretty awesome watching the full-on retreat as my giant-mandible-wielding beasts of war trundle after the lowly human vermin.
Probe sneak-arounds: one of the reasons watching protoss can be annoying is that entire strategies can be centered around whether or not the opposing player scouts and finds a pylon in time. if it's found, the strategy is fucked, if it's not found, the strategy can be devasting. that's not interesting that's arguably one of the bullshit aspects of sc2. Watching a player do a ton of feints etc. just to get the opponent to lose vision of the base exit for a few seconds can be pretty incredible.
I could be wrong but I don't see how any of those are comparable to being able to use a Reaver/Shuttle combo effectively.
Answers in bold. All of these are things that can easily make a losing experience far more fun than some of my more-mundane wins.
Cliffs: you lack creativity, and it's ruining your own game experience.
I won't take the bait, sorry. We could nitpick for quite a while if we wanted to, so let's not. My point was that none of the examples shown above were even remotely as interesting as the dynamics of the Reaver and Shuttle. If you had read what other brood war vets in this thread were saying, you would see that those two units could change the way a game was heading in a variety of ways.
On October 06 2013 04:37 Incognoto wrote: I won't take the bait, sorry. We could nitpick for quite a while if we wanted to, so let's not. My point was that none of the examples shown above were even remotely as interesting as the dynamics of the Reaver and Shuttle. If you had read what other brood war vets in this thread were saying, you would see that those two units could change the way a game was heading in a variety of ways.
Here's what you said:
"Just as a bit of a curious detail, how many satisfying losing games people have had in SC2?
In BW you can still appreciate loads of small stuff even if you lose. Landing a good scarab or sniping a lurker is still satisfying in a lost game. In SC2 I can't think of any similar experiences."
So I responded about the things that get me off even if I lose. It has nothing to do with the "dynamics" of the Reaver and Shuttle, so I have no idea why you're randomly trying to steer it in that direction.
Edit: Nevermind, you didn't say that. Some other guy did. That's what the conversation was about, though. And from a "that was cool" standpoint, I don't think landing a good scarab trumps most of those.
On October 06 2013 04:37 Incognoto wrote: I won't take the bait, sorry. We could nitpick for quite a while if we wanted to, so let's not. My point was that none of the examples shown above were even remotely as interesting as the dynamics of the Reaver and Shuttle. If you had read what other brood war vets in this thread were saying, you would see that those two units could change the way a game was heading in a variety of ways.
Here's what you said:
"Just as a bit of a curious detail, how many satisfying losing games people have had in SC2?
In BW you can still appreciate loads of small stuff even if you lose. Landing a good scarab or sniping a lurker is still satisfying in a lost game. In SC2 I can't think of any similar experiences."
So I responded about the things that get me off even if I lose. It has nothing to do with the "dynamics" of the Reaver and Shuttle, so I have no idea why you're randomly trying to steer it in that direction.
Edit: Nevermind, you didn't say that. Some other guy did. That's what the conversation was about, though. And from a "that was cool" standpoint, I don't think landing a good scarab trumps most of those.
10 e-$ says you've probably never played Brood War or watched professional games then.
On October 06 2013 04:37 Incognoto wrote: I won't take the bait, sorry. We could nitpick for quite a while if we wanted to, so let's not. My point was that none of the examples shown above were even remotely as interesting as the dynamics of the Reaver and Shuttle. If you had read what other brood war vets in this thread were saying, you would see that those two units could change the way a game was heading in a variety of ways.
Here's what you said:
"Just as a bit of a curious detail, how many satisfying losing games people have had in SC2?
In BW you can still appreciate loads of small stuff even if you lose. Landing a good scarab or sniping a lurker is still satisfying in a lost game. In SC2 I can't think of any similar experiences."
So I responded about the things that get me off even if I lose. It has nothing to do with the "dynamics" of the Reaver and Shuttle, so I have no idea why you're randomly trying to steer it in that direction.
Edit: Nevermind, you didn't say that. Some other guy did. That's what the conversation was about, though. And from a "that was cool" standpoint, I don't think landing a good scarab trumps most of those.
I think the guy saying you can appreciate BW even if you lose has a good point. BW is just downright fun to play.
SC2 is not very fun at all. That's not just my personal opinion, it's my experience with introducing many people to the game and playing with them. It is very stressful and the only "fun" the game provides is winning, because who doesn't love to win?
When playing a widely popular game like pool (billiards) every turn tends to be enjoyable. Pocketing balls is satisfying regardless of the final outcome of the game. Even when you are down by a wide margin, it's still fun to pocket what you can or even potentially make a comeback.
It's hard to put my finger on what exactly makes SC2 so incredibly not fun, while BW I find is more like billiards where just taking shots is fun. If I had to guess I think it is something to do with game speed, "terrible terrible damage", and/or the SC2 economy. Maybe slowing the game down would enable average players to enjoy these activities you describe as fun (I certainly never had fun with them).
On October 06 2013 00:26 ReachTheSky wrote: Honestly after having met 3/5 hackers in games i've played today, i'd say the fact that there is cheating in this game is the biggest problem of sc2. Blizzard fucked up.
Yeah since that's why everyone quit, we were all having fun til 60% of games were vs hackers........
i think BW is more fun because the outcome isn't predictable, there is more randomness, on the other hand sc2 was built without any random stuff, the game is more straightforward
On October 06 2013 05:57 Garmer wrote: i think BW is more fun because the outcome isn't predictable, there is more randomness, on the other hand sc2 was built without any random stuff, the game is more straightforward
The randomness was def exciting but I dont think thats what took BW over the top. BW was still quite straightforward with the MU's. Every TvP was Mech vs Massive Ground Army. What was the core though was how dynamic the MU was. The true power of a slow mech army, vs a teleporting all over the map protoss army. Unit interaction was great Tanks Melted Goons, But zeals did a good job of holding tank fire and drawing mines into tanks. Vultures were great for harass and for laying mines down all over the map. Then you had the specilaity units like Sci Vessels and Arbiters to turn the MU upside down and make crazy plays.
We saw this for a bit in SC2 in the gold age of TvZ where you had Tank/Rine/Medivac/Thor vs Ling/Bling/Muta. The MU was on its way to becoming very good and just needed a few tweaks to get it perfect as T did have about a 60% win rate. But then this all went to hell as BL/Infestor eventually took over and took a great MU and turned it completely Stale.
one small issue regarding "the scene".. the # of injuries is getting rather.. onerous.
wrist injuries are becoming as frequent as head injuries in the NHL and NFL. its a notable occurrance when a player can be playing at a pro level for 3 years and NOT be injured.
i'm waiting for someone to blame David Kim, Bob Kotick, or Dustin Browder for this one.
Let us grind for something other than a ladder ranking. In LoL you get closer to new champions and all that crap. There is no reason that grinding aspect cant be put into Starcraft. We have seen then do wonders with Diablo and WoW in that regard.
Let casual gamers like me have something to play for - and at the end of the night we can say that we have achieved something other than a + or - score on the 1v1 ladder.
On October 06 2013 09:08 Foulum wrote: Let us grind for something other than a ladder ranking. In LoL you get closer to new champions and all that crap. There is no reason that grinding aspect cant be put into Starcraft. We have seen then do wonders with Diablo and WoW in that regard.
Let casual gamers like me have something to play for - and at the end of the night we can say that we have achieved something other than a + or - score on the 1v1 ladder.
I have to agree. I was really hyped when I played beta because I was expecting more skins and more dances (and hopefully dance for all units) and I remember people asking will blizzard increase the level cap, they said they will (not 100% sure for the answer, but definitly not a no)
i honestly think it isn't just me who feel we got tricked by the beta. still the same number of skin and dances as we had since the beta.
On October 06 2013 00:26 ReachTheSky wrote: Honestly after having met 3/5 hackers in games i've played today, i'd say the fact that there is cheating in this game is the biggest problem of sc2. Blizzard fucked up.
This is one of the main reasons I stopped playing, it's frustrating that on NA server less and less plays are playing legit. It's not anything new but when it is obviously getting worse and nothing had been done its frustrating. Not to mention they have not opened players to create their own ladders with anti cheats. When hacking goes from 1/100 to 1/20 or 30 players, people stop hiding their hacking and reporting not working its hard to want to play. I've always been around high mast and low gm Mmr so my rating dodnt change, only more people became cheaters.
IMO unless hacking is solved this game has not future. There needs to be a report-for-cheating function you can use that is powerful enough to ban players without blizzard needing to help. This community has been scared that player-only bans or suspensions would be bad but if you only gave players this option after fully watching a replay it would make it better. In dota if you are reported by your team you are put In a low priority pool where you match with other low priority players and are unable to gain "battle point" if we made it so players could report others for cheating and after 20 or so it disables them from earning ladder points I can see this being much better. However cheating is only one problem sc2 faces.
EPT
