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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 05 2013 18:16 ETisME wrote:
honestly that is not the top priority for sure if they can't even fix their damn viewership on the bigger, more developed scene like KR and CN
That's not really fixable unless you bring out dark magic of 90s.
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Don´t underestimate the viewership outside of asia, especially when every country gets his own "superstar". I am pretty sure the overall viewer stats will explode. Suddenly most countries will have someone to cheer for, not always koreans... ( no offense <3)
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holy fk stop bitching its kinda time to stop, just enjoy the damn game
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On October 05 2013 18:32 discator wrote:
holy fk stop bitching its kinda time to stop, just enjoy the damn game
If we enjoyed it there would be nothing to complain about.
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On October 05 2013 18:30 Big-t wrote:
Don´t underestimate the viewership outside of asia, especially when every country gets his own "superstar". I am pretty sure the overall viewer stats will explode. Suddenly most countries will have someone to cheer for, not always koreans... ( no offense <3)
and how would that go? suddenly everybody becomes good from winning a tournament filled with master players?
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On October 05 2013 18:32 discator wrote:
holy fk stop bitching its kinda time to stop, just enjoy the damn game[
that's the damn problem lol, we can't
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On October 05 2013 18:30 Big-t wrote:
Don´t underestimate the viewership outside of asia, especially when every country gets his own "superstar". I am pretty sure the overall viewer stats will explode. Suddenly most countries will have someone to cheer for, not always koreans... ( no offense <3)
Problems is when that 'superstar' gets bopped in 5 minutes from simple marine poke. It would be like having a local Hong Kong soccer team drawing Barcalona in the first round...
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On October 05 2013 19:19 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 18:30 Big-t wrote:
Don´t underestimate the viewership outside of asia, especially when every country gets his own "superstar". I am pretty sure the overall viewer stats will explode. Suddenly most countries will have someone to cheer for, not always koreans... ( no offense <3) Problems is when that 'superstar' gets bopped in 5 minutes from simple marine poke. It would be like having a local Hong Kong soccer team drawing Barcalona in the first round...
it's the spirit that counts :D
joke aside, yes this is what will happen and we will just see forum filled with complains like Koreans make game boring, no personality etc.
Then if the foreginers beat high level koreans: SC2 too easy to win, not enough skill ceiling
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On October 05 2013 04:42 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 04:37 Incognoto wrote:On October 05 2013 04:27 RampancyTW wrote:On October 05 2013 04:19 Bacillus wrote:On October 05 2013 03:03 kaisr wrote:On October 04 2013 12:51 ChoiSulli wrote:
Damn I think just referring people to Goldfish' post is all I need to do. Its such a good explanation as to why even though BW is infinetly harder to play, it is so fucking fun and you can feel yourself improving and it is such a rewarding feeling. I want to just make a point about the spectator experience, to me there is no WOW factor in sc2, nothing that impresses since its all fucking easy to do. Oh shit he targeted down the colossus oh shit he empd the entire army oh shit he spread out his death ball. There is more casuals who ladder in sc2 then there ever were in BW... in BW we all accepted we sucked at the game and werent going to be good enough and so we mostly played UMS. But we all fucking tuned in to watch the pros do shit we would never be able to. All you gotta do is go turn on Bisu's stream, first of all there is not anyone else that handsome and there is not anyone else that can play BW that way. Completely agree. After not playing sc2 for over a year and not watching any of it for over half a year because of how stale and boring it was I saw bisu streaming bw last week or something. Just watching him micro ~15 dragoons away from vultures+minefields in late game while macroing off 4 bases 2 of which were getting seiged by sea because he desperately could not lose those dragoons filled me with awe that I have never felt watching sc2. He even lost that game like 5 minutes later but it reminded me of why i loved bw so much and how i never felt the same joy watching or playing sc2. Just as a bit of a curious detail, how many satisfying losing games people have had in SC2? In BW you can still appreciate loads of small stuff even if you lose. Landing a good scarab or sniping a lurker is still satisfying in a lost game. In SC2 I can't think of any similar experiences. Off the top of my head: Burrowed Banelings Widow Mine baits Seeker Missile connections Good phoenix harrass Money storms Doom drops Nydus shenanigans Perfect blink engagement Ultralisk-induced panic Probe sneak-arounds Lots of great, cool things can happen in a lost game that I appreciate and build on. Sometimes they're things I do, sometimes an opponent pulls off such a ridiculously sick hold or bait or whatever that I just sit there for a few seconds in utter appreciation of the mastery with which I've been killed. None of that is comparable to a Reaver Why not? Reavers are cool, but there's nothing that makes them objectively cooler than most of the above.
Burrowed Banelings: Gimmicks that don't work half the time. It's a waste of a player's APM considering how bad automatic unburrowing is.
Widow Mine baits: Basic ling splitting that's pretty uninteresting as Terran doesn't do anything and if zerg fucks up he loses quite a lot.
Seeker Missile connections: Seeker missiles take no skill to utilize, unlike Reavers.
Good phoenix harrass: literally just e + left click.
Money storms: they can be good but with auto-casting it's hard to be impressed with how well they're being used. unlike reavers.
Doom drops: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position.
Nydus shenanigans: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position
Perfect blink engagement: is blinking forward a group of stalkers interesting? pros only do that when the fight is already won.
Ultralisk-induced panic: wut
Probe sneak-arounds: one of the reasons watching protoss can be annoying is that entire strategies can be centered around whether or not the opposing player scouts and finds a pylon in time. if it's found, the strategy is fucked, if it's not found, the strategy can be devasting. that's not interesting that's arguably one of the bullshit aspects of sc2.
I could be wrong but I don't see how any of those are comparable to being able to use a Reaver/Shuttle combo effectively.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 05 2013 19:59 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 04:42 RampancyTW wrote:On October 05 2013 04:37 Incognoto wrote:On October 05 2013 04:27 RampancyTW wrote:On October 05 2013 04:19 Bacillus wrote:On October 05 2013 03:03 kaisr wrote:On October 04 2013 12:51 ChoiSulli wrote:
Damn I think just referring people to Goldfish' post is all I need to do. Its such a good explanation as to why even though BW is infinetly harder to play, it is so fucking fun and you can feel yourself improving and it is such a rewarding feeling. I want to just make a point about the spectator experience, to me there is no WOW factor in sc2, nothing that impresses since its all fucking easy to do. Oh shit he targeted down the colossus oh shit he empd the entire army oh shit he spread out his death ball. There is more casuals who ladder in sc2 then there ever were in BW... in BW we all accepted we sucked at the game and werent going to be good enough and so we mostly played UMS. But we all fucking tuned in to watch the pros do shit we would never be able to. All you gotta do is go turn on Bisu's stream, first of all there is not anyone else that handsome and there is not anyone else that can play BW that way. Completely agree. After not playing sc2 for over a year and not watching any of it for over half a year because of how stale and boring it was I saw bisu streaming bw last week or something. Just watching him micro ~15 dragoons away from vultures+minefields in late game while macroing off 4 bases 2 of which were getting seiged by sea because he desperately could not lose those dragoons filled me with awe that I have never felt watching sc2. He even lost that game like 5 minutes later but it reminded me of why i loved bw so much and how i never felt the same joy watching or playing sc2. Just as a bit of a curious detail, how many satisfying losing games people have had in SC2? In BW you can still appreciate loads of small stuff even if you lose. Landing a good scarab or sniping a lurker is still satisfying in a lost game. In SC2 I can't think of any similar experiences. Off the top of my head: Burrowed Banelings Widow Mine baits Seeker Missile connections Good phoenix harrass Money storms Doom drops Nydus shenanigans Perfect blink engagement Ultralisk-induced panic Probe sneak-arounds Lots of great, cool things can happen in a lost game that I appreciate and build on. Sometimes they're things I do, sometimes an opponent pulls off such a ridiculously sick hold or bait or whatever that I just sit there for a few seconds in utter appreciation of the mastery with which I've been killed. None of that is comparable to a Reaver Why not? Reavers are cool, but there's nothing that makes them objectively cooler than most of the above. Burrowed Banelings: Gimmicks that don't work half the time. It's a waste of a player's APM considering how bad automatic unburrowing is. Widow Mine baits: Basic ling splitting that's pretty uninteresting as Terran doesn't do anything and if zerg fucks up he loses quite a lot. Seeker Missile connections: Seeker missiles take no skill to utilize, unlike Reavers. Good phoenix harrass: literally just e + left click. Money storms: they can be good but with auto-casting it's hard to be impressed with how well they're being used. unlike reavers. Doom drops: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position. Nydus shenanigans: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position Perfect blink engagement: is blinking forward a group of stalkers interesting? pros only do that when the fight is already won. Ultralisk-induced panic: wut Probe sneak-arounds: one of the reasons watching protoss can be annoying is that entire strategies can be centered around whether or not the opposing player scouts and finds a pylon in time. if it's found, the strategy is fucked, if it's not found, the strategy can be devasting. that's not interesting that's arguably one of the bullshit aspects of sc2. I could be wrong but I don't see how any of those are comparable to being able to use a Reaver/Shuttle combo effectively.
Reaver drops: shenanigans relying on player not being to split his stuff and get rid of shuttle. Am i doing it right :3?
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On October 05 2013 20:21 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 19:59 Incognoto wrote:On October 05 2013 04:42 RampancyTW wrote:On October 05 2013 04:37 Incognoto wrote:On October 05 2013 04:27 RampancyTW wrote:On October 05 2013 04:19 Bacillus wrote:On October 05 2013 03:03 kaisr wrote:On October 04 2013 12:51 ChoiSulli wrote:
Damn I think just referring people to Goldfish' post is all I need to do. Its such a good explanation as to why even though BW is infinetly harder to play, it is so fucking fun and you can feel yourself improving and it is such a rewarding feeling. I want to just make a point about the spectator experience, to me there is no WOW factor in sc2, nothing that impresses since its all fucking easy to do. Oh shit he targeted down the colossus oh shit he empd the entire army oh shit he spread out his death ball. There is more casuals who ladder in sc2 then there ever were in BW... in BW we all accepted we sucked at the game and werent going to be good enough and so we mostly played UMS. But we all fucking tuned in to watch the pros do shit we would never be able to. All you gotta do is go turn on Bisu's stream, first of all there is not anyone else that handsome and there is not anyone else that can play BW that way. Completely agree. After not playing sc2 for over a year and not watching any of it for over half a year because of how stale and boring it was I saw bisu streaming bw last week or something. Just watching him micro ~15 dragoons away from vultures+minefields in late game while macroing off 4 bases 2 of which were getting seiged by sea because he desperately could not lose those dragoons filled me with awe that I have never felt watching sc2. He even lost that game like 5 minutes later but it reminded me of why i loved bw so much and how i never felt the same joy watching or playing sc2. Just as a bit of a curious detail, how many satisfying losing games people have had in SC2? In BW you can still appreciate loads of small stuff even if you lose. Landing a good scarab or sniping a lurker is still satisfying in a lost game. In SC2 I can't think of any similar experiences. Off the top of my head: Burrowed Banelings Widow Mine baits Seeker Missile connections Good phoenix harrass Money storms Doom drops Nydus shenanigans Perfect blink engagement Ultralisk-induced panic Probe sneak-arounds Lots of great, cool things can happen in a lost game that I appreciate and build on. Sometimes they're things I do, sometimes an opponent pulls off such a ridiculously sick hold or bait or whatever that I just sit there for a few seconds in utter appreciation of the mastery with which I've been killed. None of that is comparable to a Reaver Why not? Reavers are cool, but there's nothing that makes them objectively cooler than most of the above. Burrowed Banelings: Gimmicks that don't work half the time. It's a waste of a player's APM considering how bad automatic unburrowing is. Widow Mine baits: Basic ling splitting that's pretty uninteresting as Terran doesn't do anything and if zerg fucks up he loses quite a lot. Seeker Missile connections: Seeker missiles take no skill to utilize, unlike Reavers. Good phoenix harrass: literally just e + left click. Money storms: they can be good but with auto-casting it's hard to be impressed with how well they're being used. unlike reavers. Doom drops: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position. Nydus shenanigans: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position Perfect blink engagement: is blinking forward a group of stalkers interesting? pros only do that when the fight is already won. Ultralisk-induced panic: wut Probe sneak-arounds: one of the reasons watching protoss can be annoying is that entire strategies can be centered around whether or not the opposing player scouts and finds a pylon in time. if it's found, the strategy is fucked, if it's not found, the strategy can be devasting. that's not interesting that's arguably one of the bullshit aspects of sc2. I could be wrong but I don't see how any of those are comparable to being able to use a Reaver/Shuttle combo effectively. Reaver drops: shenanigans relying on player not being to split his stuff and get rid of shuttle. Am i doing it right :3?
I could be wrong as I've never watched Brood War. I was under the impression that entire strategies could revolve around properly using a Reaver and Shuttle.
That doesn't work in SC2 with doom drops or nydus unless it catches the other player by complete surprise.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 05 2013 20:28 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 20:21 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 05 2013 19:59 Incognoto wrote:On October 05 2013 04:42 RampancyTW wrote:On October 05 2013 04:37 Incognoto wrote:On October 05 2013 04:27 RampancyTW wrote:On October 05 2013 04:19 Bacillus wrote:On October 05 2013 03:03 kaisr wrote:On October 04 2013 12:51 ChoiSulli wrote:
Damn I think just referring people to Goldfish' post is all I need to do. Its such a good explanation as to why even though BW is infinetly harder to play, it is so fucking fun and you can feel yourself improving and it is such a rewarding feeling. I want to just make a point about the spectator experience, to me there is no WOW factor in sc2, nothing that impresses since its all fucking easy to do. Oh shit he targeted down the colossus oh shit he empd the entire army oh shit he spread out his death ball. There is more casuals who ladder in sc2 then there ever were in BW... in BW we all accepted we sucked at the game and werent going to be good enough and so we mostly played UMS. But we all fucking tuned in to watch the pros do shit we would never be able to. All you gotta do is go turn on Bisu's stream, first of all there is not anyone else that handsome and there is not anyone else that can play BW that way. Completely agree. After not playing sc2 for over a year and not watching any of it for over half a year because of how stale and boring it was I saw bisu streaming bw last week or something. Just watching him micro ~15 dragoons away from vultures+minefields in late game while macroing off 4 bases 2 of which were getting seiged by sea because he desperately could not lose those dragoons filled me with awe that I have never felt watching sc2. He even lost that game like 5 minutes later but it reminded me of why i loved bw so much and how i never felt the same joy watching or playing sc2. Just as a bit of a curious detail, how many satisfying losing games people have had in SC2? In BW you can still appreciate loads of small stuff even if you lose. Landing a good scarab or sniping a lurker is still satisfying in a lost game. In SC2 I can't think of any similar experiences. Off the top of my head: Burrowed Banelings Widow Mine baits Seeker Missile connections Good phoenix harrass Money storms Doom drops Nydus shenanigans Perfect blink engagement Ultralisk-induced panic Probe sneak-arounds Lots of great, cool things can happen in a lost game that I appreciate and build on. Sometimes they're things I do, sometimes an opponent pulls off such a ridiculously sick hold or bait or whatever that I just sit there for a few seconds in utter appreciation of the mastery with which I've been killed. None of that is comparable to a Reaver Why not? Reavers are cool, but there's nothing that makes them objectively cooler than most of the above. Burrowed Banelings: Gimmicks that don't work half the time. It's a waste of a player's APM considering how bad automatic unburrowing is. Widow Mine baits: Basic ling splitting that's pretty uninteresting as Terran doesn't do anything and if zerg fucks up he loses quite a lot. Seeker Missile connections: Seeker missiles take no skill to utilize, unlike Reavers. Good phoenix harrass: literally just e + left click. Money storms: they can be good but with auto-casting it's hard to be impressed with how well they're being used. unlike reavers. Doom drops: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position. Nydus shenanigans: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position Perfect blink engagement: is blinking forward a group of stalkers interesting? pros only do that when the fight is already won. Ultralisk-induced panic: wut Probe sneak-arounds: one of the reasons watching protoss can be annoying is that entire strategies can be centered around whether or not the opposing player scouts and finds a pylon in time. if it's found, the strategy is fucked, if it's not found, the strategy can be devasting. that's not interesting that's arguably one of the bullshit aspects of sc2. I could be wrong but I don't see how any of those are comparable to being able to use a Reaver/Shuttle combo effectively. Reaver drops: shenanigans relying on player not being to split his stuff and get rid of shuttle. Am i doing it right :3? I could be wrong as I've never watched Brood War. I was under the impression that entire strategies could revolve around properly using a Reaver and Shuttle. That doesn't work in SC2 with doom drops or nydus unless it catches the other player by complete surprise.
It did revolve from properly using reaver and shuttle. Same as proper blinking requires proper micro and proper map awareness is required to do the NOT YOLO doom drop (YOLO doom drops do not care :D)
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On October 05 2013 19:59 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 04:42 RampancyTW wrote:On October 05 2013 04:37 Incognoto wrote:On October 05 2013 04:27 RampancyTW wrote:On October 05 2013 04:19 Bacillus wrote:On October 05 2013 03:03 kaisr wrote:On October 04 2013 12:51 ChoiSulli wrote:
Damn I think just referring people to Goldfish' post is all I need to do. Its such a good explanation as to why even though BW is infinetly harder to play, it is so fucking fun and you can feel yourself improving and it is such a rewarding feeling. I want to just make a point about the spectator experience, to me there is no WOW factor in sc2, nothing that impresses since its all fucking easy to do. Oh shit he targeted down the colossus oh shit he empd the entire army oh shit he spread out his death ball. There is more casuals who ladder in sc2 then there ever were in BW... in BW we all accepted we sucked at the game and werent going to be good enough and so we mostly played UMS. But we all fucking tuned in to watch the pros do shit we would never be able to. All you gotta do is go turn on Bisu's stream, first of all there is not anyone else that handsome and there is not anyone else that can play BW that way. Completely agree. After not playing sc2 for over a year and not watching any of it for over half a year because of how stale and boring it was I saw bisu streaming bw last week or something. Just watching him micro ~15 dragoons away from vultures+minefields in late game while macroing off 4 bases 2 of which were getting seiged by sea because he desperately could not lose those dragoons filled me with awe that I have never felt watching sc2. He even lost that game like 5 minutes later but it reminded me of why i loved bw so much and how i never felt the same joy watching or playing sc2. Just as a bit of a curious detail, how many satisfying losing games people have had in SC2? In BW you can still appreciate loads of small stuff even if you lose. Landing a good scarab or sniping a lurker is still satisfying in a lost game. In SC2 I can't think of any similar experiences. Off the top of my head: Burrowed Banelings Widow Mine baits Seeker Missile connections Good phoenix harrass Money storms Doom drops Nydus shenanigans Perfect blink engagement Ultralisk-induced panic Probe sneak-arounds Lots of great, cool things can happen in a lost game that I appreciate and build on. Sometimes they're things I do, sometimes an opponent pulls off such a ridiculously sick hold or bait or whatever that I just sit there for a few seconds in utter appreciation of the mastery with which I've been killed. None of that is comparable to a Reaver Why not? Reavers are cool, but there's nothing that makes them objectively cooler than most of the above. Burrowed Banelings: Gimmicks that don't work half the time. It's a waste of a player's APM considering how bad automatic unburrowing is. Widow Mine baits: Basic ling splitting that's pretty uninteresting as Terran doesn't do anything and if zerg fucks up he loses quite a lot. Seeker Missile connections: Seeker missiles take no skill to utilize, unlike Reavers. Good phoenix harrass: literally just e + left click. Money storms: they can be good but with auto-casting it's hard to be impressed with how well they're being used. unlike reavers. Doom drops: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position. Nydus shenanigans: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position Perfect blink engagement: is blinking forward a group of stalkers interesting? pros only do that when the fight is already won. Ultralisk-induced panic: wut Probe sneak-arounds: one of the reasons watching protoss can be annoying is that entire strategies can be centered around whether or not the opposing player scouts and finds a pylon in time. if it's found, the strategy is fucked, if it's not found, the strategy can be devasting. that's not interesting that's arguably one of the bullshit aspects of sc2. I could be wrong but I don't see how any of those are comparable to being able to use a Reaver/Shuttle combo effectively.
This post had me laughing irl. Haha my hats off to you sir.
And I do agree with reaver/shuttles being alot more exciting to watch. The randomness of scarabs (and its devastation), the low hp of shuttles (you are literally walking on ice), so many "skin of my teeth" moments where the risk/reward is just over the top. Not only can it be used in harassment but in main engagements as well especially PvZ. When pros sometimes have 4~5 shuttles with reavers (stork!) makes me sick how they are micro-ing this and making it possible.
I miss BW PvZ.. protoss using all sorts of magiks and high tech (in low number) against endless tide of zerg.
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On October 05 2013 20:28 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 20:21 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 05 2013 19:59 Incognoto wrote:On October 05 2013 04:42 RampancyTW wrote:On October 05 2013 04:37 Incognoto wrote:On October 05 2013 04:27 RampancyTW wrote:On October 05 2013 04:19 Bacillus wrote:On October 05 2013 03:03 kaisr wrote:On October 04 2013 12:51 ChoiSulli wrote:
Damn I think just referring people to Goldfish' post is all I need to do. Its such a good explanation as to why even though BW is infinetly harder to play, it is so fucking fun and you can feel yourself improving and it is such a rewarding feeling. I want to just make a point about the spectator experience, to me there is no WOW factor in sc2, nothing that impresses since its all fucking easy to do. Oh shit he targeted down the colossus oh shit he empd the entire army oh shit he spread out his death ball. There is more casuals who ladder in sc2 then there ever were in BW... in BW we all accepted we sucked at the game and werent going to be good enough and so we mostly played UMS. But we all fucking tuned in to watch the pros do shit we would never be able to. All you gotta do is go turn on Bisu's stream, first of all there is not anyone else that handsome and there is not anyone else that can play BW that way. Completely agree. After not playing sc2 for over a year and not watching any of it for over half a year because of how stale and boring it was I saw bisu streaming bw last week or something. Just watching him micro ~15 dragoons away from vultures+minefields in late game while macroing off 4 bases 2 of which were getting seiged by sea because he desperately could not lose those dragoons filled me with awe that I have never felt watching sc2. He even lost that game like 5 minutes later but it reminded me of why i loved bw so much and how i never felt the same joy watching or playing sc2. Just as a bit of a curious detail, how many satisfying losing games people have had in SC2? In BW you can still appreciate loads of small stuff even if you lose. Landing a good scarab or sniping a lurker is still satisfying in a lost game. In SC2 I can't think of any similar experiences. Off the top of my head: Burrowed Banelings Widow Mine baits Seeker Missile connections Good phoenix harrass Money storms Doom drops Nydus shenanigans Perfect blink engagement Ultralisk-induced panic Probe sneak-arounds Lots of great, cool things can happen in a lost game that I appreciate and build on. Sometimes they're things I do, sometimes an opponent pulls off such a ridiculously sick hold or bait or whatever that I just sit there for a few seconds in utter appreciation of the mastery with which I've been killed. None of that is comparable to a Reaver Why not? Reavers are cool, but there's nothing that makes them objectively cooler than most of the above. Burrowed Banelings: Gimmicks that don't work half the time. It's a waste of a player's APM considering how bad automatic unburrowing is. Widow Mine baits: Basic ling splitting that's pretty uninteresting as Terran doesn't do anything and if zerg fucks up he loses quite a lot. Seeker Missile connections: Seeker missiles take no skill to utilize, unlike Reavers. Good phoenix harrass: literally just e + left click. Money storms: they can be good but with auto-casting it's hard to be impressed with how well they're being used. unlike reavers. Doom drops: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position. Nydus shenanigans: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position Perfect blink engagement: is blinking forward a group of stalkers interesting? pros only do that when the fight is already won. Ultralisk-induced panic: wut Probe sneak-arounds: one of the reasons watching protoss can be annoying is that entire strategies can be centered around whether or not the opposing player scouts and finds a pylon in time. if it's found, the strategy is fucked, if it's not found, the strategy can be devasting. that's not interesting that's arguably one of the bullshit aspects of sc2. I could be wrong but I don't see how any of those are comparable to being able to use a Reaver/Shuttle combo effectively. Reaver drops: shenanigans relying on player not being to split his stuff and get rid of shuttle. Am i doing it right :3? I could be wrong as I've never watched Brood War. I was under the impression that entire strategies could revolve around properly using a Reaver and Shuttle. That doesn't work in SC2 with doom drops or nydus unless it catches the other player by complete surprise.
Well Reavers are a versatile unit. It can used for offensive or defensive purposes at continuous pace w/o having to replete their energy like Storms or just for harassment via Nydus worms. When your Reaver as tech have been exposed, the Terran/Zerg will spend their time on building enough static to defenses with either Turrets or Scourges. This in turn delays the terran's timing push and in Zerg's case, a gas intensive race will have upgrade timing to be postponed. While at it, the Reaver tech is not to be wasted all for naught but with the proper shuttle/reaver micro and ground army troop movement, you can try to kite the army moving forward as much as possible with your ground troop while picking off any reinforcement coming off from the rear and if you are exceptional talented at it, to even dissect the primary army.
TLDR: Yeah basically you grasped the unit's core concepts.
On October 05 2013 20:21 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 19:59 Incognoto wrote:On October 05 2013 04:42 RampancyTW wrote:On October 05 2013 04:37 Incognoto wrote:On October 05 2013 04:27 RampancyTW wrote:On October 05 2013 04:19 Bacillus wrote:On October 05 2013 03:03 kaisr wrote:On October 04 2013 12:51 ChoiSulli wrote:
Damn I think just referring people to Goldfish' post is all I need to do. Its such a good explanation as to why even though BW is infinetly harder to play, it is so fucking fun and you can feel yourself improving and it is such a rewarding feeling. I want to just make a point about the spectator experience, to me there is no WOW factor in sc2, nothing that impresses since its all fucking easy to do. Oh shit he targeted down the colossus oh shit he empd the entire army oh shit he spread out his death ball. There is more casuals who ladder in sc2 then there ever were in BW... in BW we all accepted we sucked at the game and werent going to be good enough and so we mostly played UMS. But we all fucking tuned in to watch the pros do shit we would never be able to. All you gotta do is go turn on Bisu's stream, first of all there is not anyone else that handsome and there is not anyone else that can play BW that way. Completely agree. After not playing sc2 for over a year and not watching any of it for over half a year because of how stale and boring it was I saw bisu streaming bw last week or something. Just watching him micro ~15 dragoons away from vultures+minefields in late game while macroing off 4 bases 2 of which were getting seiged by sea because he desperately could not lose those dragoons filled me with awe that I have never felt watching sc2. He even lost that game like 5 minutes later but it reminded me of why i loved bw so much and how i never felt the same joy watching or playing sc2. Just as a bit of a curious detail, how many satisfying losing games people have had in SC2? In BW you can still appreciate loads of small stuff even if you lose. Landing a good scarab or sniping a lurker is still satisfying in a lost game. In SC2 I can't think of any similar experiences. Off the top of my head: Burrowed Banelings Widow Mine baits Seeker Missile connections Good phoenix harrass Money storms Doom drops Nydus shenanigans Perfect blink engagement Ultralisk-induced panic Probe sneak-arounds Lots of great, cool things can happen in a lost game that I appreciate and build on. Sometimes they're things I do, sometimes an opponent pulls off such a ridiculously sick hold or bait or whatever that I just sit there for a few seconds in utter appreciation of the mastery with which I've been killed. None of that is comparable to a Reaver Why not? Reavers are cool, but there's nothing that makes them objectively cooler than most of the above. Burrowed Banelings: Gimmicks that don't work half the time. It's a waste of a player's APM considering how bad automatic unburrowing is. Widow Mine baits: Basic ling splitting that's pretty uninteresting as Terran doesn't do anything and if zerg fucks up he loses quite a lot. Seeker Missile connections: Seeker missiles take no skill to utilize, unlike Reavers. Good phoenix harrass: literally just e + left click. Money storms: they can be good but with auto-casting it's hard to be impressed with how well they're being used. unlike reavers. Doom drops: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position. Nydus shenanigans: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position Perfect blink engagement: is blinking forward a group of stalkers interesting? pros only do that when the fight is already won. Ultralisk-induced panic: wut Probe sneak-arounds: one of the reasons watching protoss can be annoying is that entire strategies can be centered around whether or not the opposing player scouts and finds a pylon in time. if it's found, the strategy is fucked, if it's not found, the strategy can be devasting. that's not interesting that's arguably one of the bullshit aspects of sc2. I could be wrong but I don't see how any of those are comparable to being able to use a Reaver/Shuttle combo effectively. Reaver drops: shenanigans relying on player not being to split his stuff and get rid of shuttle. Am i doing it right :3?
Because of the reasons above you can't exactly simply decide to get rid of the shuttle by constructing Turret, Wraith as Terran. Or in Zerg's case, you will be most likely faced against a Corsair heavy army which mitigate these threat pretty handily with their splash dmg and if you commit into Mutalisks/Scourge forces, that's a do-or-die all-in that most player would want to avoid. You want to minimize the number necessary to defend against shuttle/reaver harassment in order to persist with your regular build/timing.
Now this itself is something that one must train vigorously to carefully position their turrets to inflict the maximum dmg output and placing scourges at correct places. And one thing to note about Scourge is their low sight range so you had to pay close focus to the outskirt of your bases to spot those harassment. This brings in the BW pathing system into the arguement that because of its nature, even if you could spot the shuttle, the shuttle could wiggle around a bit to mess up the targeting AI of Scourges and would not land their hit. This adds another dimension to the game for shuttle escapes.
And if you are Terran player, you usually don't really want to spread out your guys as much possible when pushing toward the Protoss player because it creates a gap between the tanks which shuttles could comfortably Zealot bomb you with low risks. So the idea is to construct Turrets at key locations while leapfrogging but you should not get too ahead of your turret placement by expressing too much avarice. This requires tons of gamesense to pull it off.
The beauty of BW is that while that the opponents might create a certain "OP forces" to be reckoned with, if you have the enough skills, one can funnel their way out of a tough situation with the careful planning and dexterous execution. And this entire explanation simply briefly gloss over a combo of two units and angles around it. So its definitely something you should sit down in a calm manner, not to be hotheaded out of frustration, and learn how to play/understand the game.
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On October 05 2013 23:10 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 20:28 Incognoto wrote:On October 05 2013 20:21 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 05 2013 19:59 Incognoto wrote:On October 05 2013 04:42 RampancyTW wrote:On October 05 2013 04:37 Incognoto wrote:On October 05 2013 04:27 RampancyTW wrote:On October 05 2013 04:19 Bacillus wrote:On October 05 2013 03:03 kaisr wrote:On October 04 2013 12:51 ChoiSulli wrote:
Damn I think just referring people to Goldfish' post is all I need to do. Its such a good explanation as to why even though BW is infinetly harder to play, it is so fucking fun and you can feel yourself improving and it is such a rewarding feeling. I want to just make a point about the spectator experience, to me there is no WOW factor in sc2, nothing that impresses since its all fucking easy to do. Oh shit he targeted down the colossus oh shit he empd the entire army oh shit he spread out his death ball. There is more casuals who ladder in sc2 then there ever were in BW... in BW we all accepted we sucked at the game and werent going to be good enough and so we mostly played UMS. But we all fucking tuned in to watch the pros do shit we would never be able to. All you gotta do is go turn on Bisu's stream, first of all there is not anyone else that handsome and there is not anyone else that can play BW that way. Completely agree. After not playing sc2 for over a year and not watching any of it for over half a year because of how stale and boring it was I saw bisu streaming bw last week or something. Just watching him micro ~15 dragoons away from vultures+minefields in late game while macroing off 4 bases 2 of which were getting seiged by sea because he desperately could not lose those dragoons filled me with awe that I have never felt watching sc2. He even lost that game like 5 minutes later but it reminded me of why i loved bw so much and how i never felt the same joy watching or playing sc2. Just as a bit of a curious detail, how many satisfying losing games people have had in SC2? In BW you can still appreciate loads of small stuff even if you lose. Landing a good scarab or sniping a lurker is still satisfying in a lost game. In SC2 I can't think of any similar experiences. Off the top of my head: Burrowed Banelings Widow Mine baits Seeker Missile connections Good phoenix harrass Money storms Doom drops Nydus shenanigans Perfect blink engagement Ultralisk-induced panic Probe sneak-arounds Lots of great, cool things can happen in a lost game that I appreciate and build on. Sometimes they're things I do, sometimes an opponent pulls off such a ridiculously sick hold or bait or whatever that I just sit there for a few seconds in utter appreciation of the mastery with which I've been killed. None of that is comparable to a Reaver Why not? Reavers are cool, but there's nothing that makes them objectively cooler than most of the above. Burrowed Banelings: Gimmicks that don't work half the time. It's a waste of a player's APM considering how bad automatic unburrowing is. Widow Mine baits: Basic ling splitting that's pretty uninteresting as Terran doesn't do anything and if zerg fucks up he loses quite a lot. Seeker Missile connections: Seeker missiles take no skill to utilize, unlike Reavers. Good phoenix harrass: literally just e + left click. Money storms: they can be good but with auto-casting it's hard to be impressed with how well they're being used. unlike reavers. Doom drops: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position. Nydus shenanigans: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position Perfect blink engagement: is blinking forward a group of stalkers interesting? pros only do that when the fight is already won. Ultralisk-induced panic: wut Probe sneak-arounds: one of the reasons watching protoss can be annoying is that entire strategies can be centered around whether or not the opposing player scouts and finds a pylon in time. if it's found, the strategy is fucked, if it's not found, the strategy can be devasting. that's not interesting that's arguably one of the bullshit aspects of sc2. I could be wrong but I don't see how any of those are comparable to being able to use a Reaver/Shuttle combo effectively. Reaver drops: shenanigans relying on player not being to split his stuff and get rid of shuttle. Am i doing it right :3? I could be wrong as I've never watched Brood War. I was under the impression that entire strategies could revolve around properly using a Reaver and Shuttle. That doesn't work in SC2 with doom drops or nydus unless it catches the other player by complete surprise. Well Reavers are a versatile unit. It can used for offensive or defensive purposes at continuous pace w/o having to replete their energy like Storms or just for harassment via Nydus worms. When your Reaver as tech have been exposed, the Terran/Zerg will spend their time on building enough static to defenses with either Turrets or Scourges. This in turn delays the terran's timing push and in Zerg's case, a gas intensive race will have upgrade timing to be postponed. While at it, the Reaver tech is not to be wasted all for naught but with the proper shuttle/reaver micro and ground army troop movement, you can try to kite the army moving forward as much as possible with your ground troop while picking off any reinforcement coming off from the rear and if you are exceptional talented at it, to even dissect the primary army. TLDR: Yeah basically you grasped the unit's core concepts.
No they are not. They are a straight forward, ground only, superslow siege unit. Nothing more.
Everything else is just the dynamics reaverdrops introduced in the specific setup of BW. We had similar dynamics in different phases of SC2, speedprism immortal drops in PvP and ZvP being the closest ones. They just turned out to not be strong standard options. If we want Protoss to have such dynamics, we shouldn't look out of the window for them, but first of all we should ask why the ones they have are not viable and how to change that.
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On October 05 2013 23:28 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 23:10 Xiphos wrote:On October 05 2013 20:28 Incognoto wrote:On October 05 2013 20:21 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 05 2013 19:59 Incognoto wrote:On October 05 2013 04:42 RampancyTW wrote:On October 05 2013 04:37 Incognoto wrote:On October 05 2013 04:27 RampancyTW wrote:On October 05 2013 04:19 Bacillus wrote:On October 05 2013 03:03 kaisr wrote:
[quote]
Completely agree. After not playing sc2 for over a year and not watching any of it for over half a year because of how stale and boring it was I saw bisu streaming bw last week or something. Just watching him micro ~15 dragoons away from vultures+minefields in late game while macroing off 4 bases 2 of which were getting seiged by sea because he desperately could not lose those dragoons filled me with awe that I have never felt watching sc2. He even lost that game like 5 minutes later but it reminded me of why i loved bw so much and how i never felt the same joy watching or playing sc2.
Just as a bit of a curious detail, how many satisfying losing games people have had in SC2? In BW you can still appreciate loads of small stuff even if you lose. Landing a good scarab or sniping a lurker is still satisfying in a lost game. In SC2 I can't think of any similar experiences. Off the top of my head: Burrowed Banelings Widow Mine baits Seeker Missile connections Good phoenix harrass Money storms Doom drops Nydus shenanigans Perfect blink engagement Ultralisk-induced panic Probe sneak-arounds Lots of great, cool things can happen in a lost game that I appreciate and build on. Sometimes they're things I do, sometimes an opponent pulls off such a ridiculously sick hold or bait or whatever that I just sit there for a few seconds in utter appreciation of the mastery with which I've been killed. None of that is comparable to a Reaver Why not? Reavers are cool, but there's nothing that makes them objectively cooler than most of the above. Burrowed Banelings: Gimmicks that don't work half the time. It's a waste of a player's APM considering how bad automatic unburrowing is. Widow Mine baits: Basic ling splitting that's pretty uninteresting as Terran doesn't do anything and if zerg fucks up he loses quite a lot. Seeker Missile connections: Seeker missiles take no skill to utilize, unlike Reavers. Good phoenix harrass: literally just e + left click. Money storms: they can be good but with auto-casting it's hard to be impressed with how well they're being used. unlike reavers. Doom drops: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position. Nydus shenanigans: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position Perfect blink engagement: is blinking forward a group of stalkers interesting? pros only do that when the fight is already won. Ultralisk-induced panic: wut Probe sneak-arounds: one of the reasons watching protoss can be annoying is that entire strategies can be centered around whether or not the opposing player scouts and finds a pylon in time. if it's found, the strategy is fucked, if it's not found, the strategy can be devasting. that's not interesting that's arguably one of the bullshit aspects of sc2. I could be wrong but I don't see how any of those are comparable to being able to use a Reaver/Shuttle combo effectively. Reaver drops: shenanigans relying on player not being to split his stuff and get rid of shuttle. Am i doing it right :3? I could be wrong as I've never watched Brood War. I was under the impression that entire strategies could revolve around properly using a Reaver and Shuttle. That doesn't work in SC2 with doom drops or nydus unless it catches the other player by complete surprise. Well Reavers are a versatile unit. It can used for offensive or defensive purposes at continuous pace w/o having to replete their energy like Storms or just for harassment via Nydus worms. When your Reaver as tech have been exposed, the Terran/Zerg will spend their time on building enough static to defenses with either Turrets or Scourges. This in turn delays the terran's timing push and in Zerg's case, a gas intensive race will have upgrade timing to be postponed. While at it, the Reaver tech is not to be wasted all for naught but with the proper shuttle/reaver micro and ground army troop movement, you can try to kite the army moving forward as much as possible with your ground troop while picking off any reinforcement coming off from the rear and if you are exceptional talented at it, to even dissect the primary army. TLDR: Yeah basically you grasped the unit's core concepts. No they are not. They are a straight forward, ground only, superslow siege unit. Nothing more. Everything else is just the dynamics reaverdrops introduced in the specific setup of BW. We had similar dynamics in different phases of SC2, speedprism immortal drops in PvP and ZvP being the closest ones. They just turned out to not be strong standard options. If we want Protoss to have such dynamics, we shouldn't look out of the window for them, but first of all we should ask why the ones they have are not viable and how to change that.
In comparison to speedprims immortal of the sequel, the Reaver/shuttle play offer much more dimensions while the former does one thing only. Read the above post to get a better understanding of it.
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On October 05 2013 23:41 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 23:28 Big J wrote:On October 05 2013 23:10 Xiphos wrote:On October 05 2013 20:28 Incognoto wrote:On October 05 2013 20:21 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 05 2013 19:59 Incognoto wrote:On October 05 2013 04:42 RampancyTW wrote:On October 05 2013 04:37 Incognoto wrote:On October 05 2013 04:27 RampancyTW wrote:On October 05 2013 04:19 Bacillus wrote:
[quote]
Just as a bit of a curious detail, how many satisfying losing games people have had in SC2?
In BW you can still appreciate loads of small stuff even if you lose. Landing a good scarab or sniping a lurker is still satisfying in a lost game. In SC2 I can't think of any similar experiences. Off the top of my head: Burrowed Banelings Widow Mine baits Seeker Missile connections Good phoenix harrass Money storms Doom drops Nydus shenanigans Perfect blink engagement Ultralisk-induced panic Probe sneak-arounds Lots of great, cool things can happen in a lost game that I appreciate and build on. Sometimes they're things I do, sometimes an opponent pulls off such a ridiculously sick hold or bait or whatever that I just sit there for a few seconds in utter appreciation of the mastery with which I've been killed. None of that is comparable to a Reaver Why not? Reavers are cool, but there's nothing that makes them objectively cooler than most of the above. Burrowed Banelings: Gimmicks that don't work half the time. It's a waste of a player's APM considering how bad automatic unburrowing is. Widow Mine baits: Basic ling splitting that's pretty uninteresting as Terran doesn't do anything and if zerg fucks up he loses quite a lot. Seeker Missile connections: Seeker missiles take no skill to utilize, unlike Reavers. Good phoenix harrass: literally just e + left click. Money storms: they can be good but with auto-casting it's hard to be impressed with how well they're being used. unlike reavers. Doom drops: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position. Nydus shenanigans: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position Perfect blink engagement: is blinking forward a group of stalkers interesting? pros only do that when the fight is already won. Ultralisk-induced panic: wut Probe sneak-arounds: one of the reasons watching protoss can be annoying is that entire strategies can be centered around whether or not the opposing player scouts and finds a pylon in time. if it's found, the strategy is fucked, if it's not found, the strategy can be devasting. that's not interesting that's arguably one of the bullshit aspects of sc2. I could be wrong but I don't see how any of those are comparable to being able to use a Reaver/Shuttle combo effectively. Reaver drops: shenanigans relying on player not being to split his stuff and get rid of shuttle. Am i doing it right :3? I could be wrong as I've never watched Brood War. I was under the impression that entire strategies could revolve around properly using a Reaver and Shuttle. That doesn't work in SC2 with doom drops or nydus unless it catches the other player by complete surprise. Well Reavers are a versatile unit. It can used for offensive or defensive purposes at continuous pace w/o having to replete their energy like Storms or just for harassment via Nydus worms. When your Reaver as tech have been exposed, the Terran/Zerg will spend their time on building enough static to defenses with either Turrets or Scourges. This in turn delays the terran's timing push and in Zerg's case, a gas intensive race will have upgrade timing to be postponed. While at it, the Reaver tech is not to be wasted all for naught but with the proper shuttle/reaver micro and ground army troop movement, you can try to kite the army moving forward as much as possible with your ground troop while picking off any reinforcement coming off from the rear and if you are exceptional talented at it, to even dissect the primary army. TLDR: Yeah basically you grasped the unit's core concepts. No they are not. They are a straight forward, ground only, superslow siege unit. Nothing more. Everything else is just the dynamics reaverdrops introduced in the specific setup of BW. We had similar dynamics in different phases of SC2, speedprism immortal drops in PvP and ZvP being the closest ones. They just turned out to not be strong standard options. If we want Protoss to have such dynamics, we shouldn't look out of the window for them, but first of all we should ask why the ones they have are not viable and how to change that. In comparison to speedprims immortal of the sequel, the Reaver/shuttle play offer much more dimensions while the former does one thing only. Read the above post to get a better understanding of it.
Yes, but that's not "because it's the reaver". It's the whole package of interactions that changed.
Meanwhile the immortal/prism combo can't keep up with that, not because it is more onedimensional, but simply because the immortal cannot deal with the hydralisk, zergling and marineplay that your T/Z opponents will use against it. If you balance the immortal that you can combat this kind of gameplay, you will for sure see this kind of gameplay. Meanwhile if you balance the reaver so that bio is viable against it we can't know whether shuttle/reaver play is of any greater use against marines and vikings.
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it' also "the reaver" trust me, the immortal it's just a thing that shoot , reaver need your attention much more, u must build scarab, backup money for that, shooting with the reaver also require some skill or your scarab will be wasted
actually "its the reaver" that make those drop awesome
reaver, lurker and vulture should not have been touched, 3 units with awesome depth that no other game have
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On October 05 2013 19:59 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 04:42 RampancyTW wrote:On October 05 2013 04:37 Incognoto wrote:On October 05 2013 04:27 RampancyTW wrote:On October 05 2013 04:19 Bacillus wrote:On October 05 2013 03:03 kaisr wrote:On October 04 2013 12:51 ChoiSulli wrote:
Damn I think just referring people to Goldfish' post is all I need to do. Its such a good explanation as to why even though BW is infinetly harder to play, it is so fucking fun and you can feel yourself improving and it is such a rewarding feeling. I want to just make a point about the spectator experience, to me there is no WOW factor in sc2, nothing that impresses since its all fucking easy to do. Oh shit he targeted down the colossus oh shit he empd the entire army oh shit he spread out his death ball. There is more casuals who ladder in sc2 then there ever were in BW... in BW we all accepted we sucked at the game and werent going to be good enough and so we mostly played UMS. But we all fucking tuned in to watch the pros do shit we would never be able to. All you gotta do is go turn on Bisu's stream, first of all there is not anyone else that handsome and there is not anyone else that can play BW that way. Completely agree. After not playing sc2 for over a year and not watching any of it for over half a year because of how stale and boring it was I saw bisu streaming bw last week or something. Just watching him micro ~15 dragoons away from vultures+minefields in late game while macroing off 4 bases 2 of which were getting seiged by sea because he desperately could not lose those dragoons filled me with awe that I have never felt watching sc2. He even lost that game like 5 minutes later but it reminded me of why i loved bw so much and how i never felt the same joy watching or playing sc2. Just as a bit of a curious detail, how many satisfying losing games people have had in SC2? In BW you can still appreciate loads of small stuff even if you lose. Landing a good scarab or sniping a lurker is still satisfying in a lost game. In SC2 I can't think of any similar experiences. Off the top of my head: Burrowed Banelings Widow Mine baits Seeker Missile connections Good phoenix harrass Money storms Doom drops Nydus shenanigans Perfect blink engagement Ultralisk-induced panic Probe sneak-arounds Lots of great, cool things can happen in a lost game that I appreciate and build on. Sometimes they're things I do, sometimes an opponent pulls off such a ridiculously sick hold or bait or whatever that I just sit there for a few seconds in utter appreciation of the mastery with which I've been killed. None of that is comparable to a Reaver Why not? Reavers are cool, but there's nothing that makes them objectively cooler than most of the above. Burrowed Banelings: Gimmicks that don't work half the time. It's a waste of a player's APM considering how bad automatic unburrowing is.
Widow Mine baits: Basic ling splitting that's pretty uninteresting as Terran doesn't do anything and if zerg fucks up he loses quite a lot. Seeker Missile connections: Seeker missiles take no skill to utilize, unlike Reavers. Good phoenix harrass: literally just e + left click. Money storms: they can be good but with auto-casting it's hard to be impressed with how well they're being used. unlike reavers. Doom drops: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position. Nydus shenanigans: shenanigans that rely on the other player being caught out of position Perfect blink engagement: is blinking forward a group of stalkers interesting? pros only do that when the fight is already won. Ultralisk-induced panic: wut Probe sneak-arounds: one of the reasons watching protoss can be annoying is that entire strategies can be centered around whether or not the opposing player scouts and finds a pylon in time. if it's found, the strategy is fucked, if it's not found, the strategy can be devasting. that's not interesting that's arguably one of the bullshit aspects of sc2. I could be wrong but I don't see how any of those are comparable to being able to use a Reaver/Shuttle combo effectively.
I don't really care about other points etc.
but the one thing that really bothers me is the bolded one.
you don't need to unburrow for the banelings to explode
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Honestly after having met 3/5 hackers in games i've played today, i'd say the fact that there is cheating in this game is the biggest problem of sc2. Blizzard fucked up.
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