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On September 21 2013 03:40 Xeris wrote:
The "esports" structure of SC is very personality driven. The fact that it is guided by personality over skill has created a situation where there are no replacements for today's big names. When they go, so goes the popularity of the game. This has been exacerbated by Blizzard (and everyone) not putting a lot of emphasis on teams and rather focusing on purely individual events. I know SC is unlike a MOBA and it's not a 'team' game, but you can have team events in SC. Who will replace Stephano as the badass European that can challenge the best in the world? Who can replace IdrA or White-Ra or Sheth? There is no crop of players who people care about that is 'up and coming' to fill the void when these prominent personalities leave the competitive scene: and the reason they're leaving is in large part because they don't really enjoy the game. Sure people like IdrA and White-Ra are still around, but their relevance will diminish over time the farther removed they are from being competitors. Relying on casters/hosts to drive viewership is not a good long term model.
If there was more focus and emphasis placed on teams this problem would be alleviated.
I don't think this argument holds much merit. Plenty of sports revolve around talented single players (tennis, golf, boxing, etc), yet these sports do not suffer when their top talent retires. There is always a new crop of competitive newcomers ready to take on the current champions and dethrone them. The same dynamic exists in Starcraft, it's not really a negative at all, it's just different from a team sport. In fact, considering the emphasis teams have on their big, flagship players (Innovation on Acer, MC on SK Gaming, etc), it maybe would make sense for players to "go solo" to make names for themselves, if they didn't benefit so amazingly from having their team house environments.
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On October 05 2013 01:33 Xeris wrote:
MOBA and SC are different - you can't really compare them and say which is 'harder' or more difficult than the other. LoL for example isn't nearly as taxing mechanically. There isn't much that separates a pro player from plat/diamond players in terms of physical ability whereas in BW the mechanical skill gap between a low grade Korean pro gamer and the best foreigner in the world was monumental. In terms of physical ability and requirement, LoL is much less demanding.
SC2 however is an individual game, you live and die by your own choices. In LoL you have to sync and coordinate with four other people, increasing the amount of difficulty of winning a game. Even if you play well and make no mistakes, it could be that your four teammates are not playing well and cause you to lose. In that respect LoL is more difficult because the outcome of a game doesn't always hinge on how you perform individually. Communication is a really important skill to have which isn't important in SC and can't be discounted.
Point being: don't compare the games.
It is possible to compare games of the same genre: I.E. BW and SC2, or LoL and Dota...
I for one think LoL is an incredibly complex game. I don't think it is 'harder' than SC, but the challenges are different. It takes a lot more learning because you have to learn what every champion does, cooldown times, abilities, and everything. Once you learn all that, it comes down to game sense, mechanics, and communicating with your team. SC doesn't have as much learning.
I think the analogy to real sports here can be drawn pretty easily.
Imagine Tennis (singles) and Basketball.
Tennis will represent be the 1v1 RTS player: he has complete pressure upon himself to win or lose the game and every movement, decision, and stroke are carefully scrutinized... not to mention he has all of these pressures on every single service. He might look at a basketball and say "man that game is so easy, a player only has 1/5 of the responsibilities that I do to win a game, heck some players come off the bench and hold the ball for 2% of the game"
Meanwhile the basketball players (MOBA) will look Tennis players and say "That guy has no concept of the intricacy for stepping up a perfectly executed play involving all 5 players and constant movement around the floor, he only every has to coordinate with himself. He also never has to deal with teammate dynamics"
You can draw the analogy even further to say, "those basketball players could never cut it in Tennis, it's a much harder sport that requires extreme precision of racket angles, controlled strikes, etc etc." But at the same time look at basketball and realize that the individual players are still professional for a reason and each of them has individual capabilities and skills that blow even semi-pro players out of the water with equally challenging mechanical requirements. There are plenty of 1 on 1 scenarios that come up in a basketball game where one player's skill directly competes against another for the outcome of the possession and the same thing happens in LoL or DOTA.
The reality is that you can look at Tennis and Basketball and immediately recognize that even though they are both competitive athletic sports, they require an extremely different skill set. It should be the same as looking at Dota2 vs. SC2 (It's just a little less obvious because they both use computers).
But I really don't believe it should be possible or relevant in the least to say one is more difficult than the other. It's just like saying Tennis or Basketball is more difficult than the other.
In the same breath and to actually re-relate this discussion to the thread at hand, I would like to point to viewership and spectator following using the same analogy. Tennis is a popular sport; when the Grand Slam tournaments are on they are all over the place in the news or on people's facebook feeds etc. But the viewership is still dwarfed by regular basketball spectators. There are probably a lot of reasons for this but my opinion is that is hinges pretty heavily on the team aspect (included is consideration for local and regional team loyalties etc.). In tennis you follow one player at a time and occasionally get excited for your home nationality but mostly just root for the champions to keep on impressing.
I think the SC2/MOBA relationship is doomed to the same. It doesn't really make sense to complain about the viewer counts or say "SC2 dead LEL look at the League of Legends Stream numbers" like you see the tards spamming in Twitch chats. They are different games that cater to different tastes and 1v1 matchups will probably always draw more of a niche following that the more accessible (to play) and team oriented counterparts.
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On October 05 2013 06:39 ChoiSulli wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 06:31 RampancyTW wrote:On October 05 2013 06:29 ChoiSulli wrote:On October 05 2013 06:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 05 2013 05:59 ChoiSulli wrote: because positioning, AOE, high ground and defenders advantage dont mean shit all in sc2.
*Checks toss deathball main element*, oh i guess it does not mean shit. Positioning part is even funnier tbh, because positioning of those deathballs plays much larger role than statement ball implies. That is strictly referring to after Terran wins a battle, and is about to march down your door... In SC2 you can have the most beautiful concave ever, which isnt exciting anyway but whatever...and it still wont matter cause death ball size will roll you. You are probably right that since everything is going to die in 5 seconds whoever had their death ball in the better position will win the battle and since all the other things I mentioned dont matter after the fact, it means they'll go on and win the game. Not even remotely true between opponents of similar skill. I dunno here is a battle report from soulky vs rain game 2 from 2 days ago... + Show Spoiler +Rain would have a chance to even up the series in game two, but would instead end up committing the throw of the night. Safely going up to three bases, Rain assembled an extremely scary army at around the 16 minute mark of the game including several colossi, mass blink stalkers, and some void rays to boot. Even with hydras, swarm hosts, corruptors, and infestors ready on defense, Soulkey crumbled beneath the barrage of lasers.
The game seemed all but over as Rain walked over to the completely unprotected swarm hosts... ...except he had no way to fire upon them. In the most costly robotics mis-rally seen in a professional game, Rain had three observers chilling at his natural while his forces awkwardly stood on top of Soulkey's burrowed swarm hosts. While Rain eventually looked back and found his lost observers, he had already wasted too much time. Soulkey used the breathing room to remax with reinforcements, combining with his swarm hosts to crush Rain's army and take the game. So Toss death ball rapes, zerg, Rain then would have kept rolling over zerg reinforcements if not for forgetting OBS. That gave Soulky a chance to then remax, and then he won the death ball engagement and Rain had to GG... cause positioning, AOE, high ground and defenders advantage dont mean shit all in sc2... not even remotely true between opponents of similar skill? I dont know what sc2 HOTS you watch but thats all I ever see. That indicates a disparity of skill or applied skill. There have been a ton of evenly-matched, back-and-forth, lots of harrassment/non-maxed-engagement games that I've watched recently.
I'll agree with you that AOE, defender's advantage, and position don't allow a player to prolong his death animation, but I don't really feel that's a bad thing. Provided both players play on a similar level throughout the course of a game, you won't reach a point where one player can just push into the other's base until several long, micro-filled engagements have occurred. In which case the better player has earned that win.
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On October 05 2013 06:43 bombsauce wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 01:33 Xeris wrote:
MOBA and SC are different - you can't really compare them and say which is 'harder' or more difficult than the other. LoL for example isn't nearly as taxing mechanically. There isn't much that separates a pro player from plat/diamond players in terms of physical ability whereas in BW the mechanical skill gap between a low grade Korean pro gamer and the best foreigner in the world was monumental. In terms of physical ability and requirement, LoL is much less demanding.
SC2 however is an individual game, you live and die by your own choices. In LoL you have to sync and coordinate with four other people, increasing the amount of difficulty of winning a game. Even if you play well and make no mistakes, it could be that your four teammates are not playing well and cause you to lose. In that respect LoL is more difficult because the outcome of a game doesn't always hinge on how you perform individually. Communication is a really important skill to have which isn't important in SC and can't be discounted.
Point being: don't compare the games.
It is possible to compare games of the same genre: I.E. BW and SC2, or LoL and Dota...
I for one think LoL is an incredibly complex game. I don't think it is 'harder' than SC, but the challenges are different. It takes a lot more learning because you have to learn what every champion does, cooldown times, abilities, and everything. Once you learn all that, it comes down to game sense, mechanics, and communicating with your team. SC doesn't have as much learning. I think the analogy to real sports here can be drawn pretty easily. Imagine Tennis (singles) and Basketball. Tennis will represent be the 1v1 RTS player: he has complete pressure upon himself to win or lose the game and every movement, decision, and stroke are carefully scrutinized... not to mention he has all of these pressures on every single service. He might look at a basketball and say "man that game is so easy, a player only has 1/5 of the responsibilities that I do to win a game, heck some players come off the bench and hold the ball for 2% of the game" Meanwhile the basketball players (MOBA) will look Tennis players and say "That guy has no concept of the intricacy for stepping up a perfectly executed play involving all 5 players and constant movement around the floor, he only every has to coordinate with himself. He also never has to deal with teammate dynamics" You can draw the analogy even further to say, "those basketball players could never cut it in Tennis, it's a much harder sport that requires extreme precision of racket angles, controlled strikes, etc etc." But at the same time look at basketball and realize that the individual players are still professional for a reason and each of them has individual capabilities and skills that blow even semi-pro players out of the water with equally challenging mechanical requirements. There are plenty of 1 on 1 scenarios that come up in a basketball game where one player's skill directly competes against another for the outcome of the possession and the same thing happens in LoL or DOTA. The reality is that you can look at Tennis and Basketball and immediately recognize that even though they are both competitive athletic sports, they require an extremely different skill set. It should be the same as looking at Dota2 vs. SC2 (It's just a little less obvious because they both use computers). But I really don't believe it should be possible or relevant in the least to say one is more difficult than the other. It's just like saying Tennis or Basketball is more difficult than the other. In the same breath and to actually re-relate this discussion to the thread at hand, I would like to point to viewership and spectator following using the same analogy. Tennis is a popular sport; when the Grand Slam tournaments are on they are all over the place in the news or on people's facebook feeds etc. But the viewership is still dwarfed by regular basketball spectators. There are probably a lot of reasons for this but my opinion is that is hinges pretty heavily on the team aspect (included is consideration for local and regional team loyalties etc.). In tennis you follow one player at a time and occasionally get excited for your home nationality but mostly just root for the champions to keep on impressing. I think the SC2/MOBA relationship is doomed to the same. It doesn't really make sense to complain about the viewer counts or say "SC2 dead LEL look at the League of Legends Stream numbers" like you see the tards spamming in Twitch chats. They are different games that cater to different tastes and 1v1 matchups will probably always draw more of a niche following that the more accessible (to play) and team oriented counterparts.
That example is just flawed as fk.
U cant compare the difference between 2 computergames with the differences between 2 real sports.
The computergames both use the same input devices, so u can create the skillimpact of the mechanics rather easy.
The same is not true for real sports at all, at least when u compare 2 sports that have nothing in common.
Everytime i have to read that teamwork is soooo difficult in mobas i have to ask, wtf are u even talking about??
The teamwork aspect in real sports is impressive cause they oftentimes cant talk to eachother directly. In a computergame they can, this makes it so much easier and way less impressive. It really isnt that hard to play as a team when there are calls and u just have to do your job. It all comes down to the mechanical part then..
The only real "difficult" aspect then is to understand the game and the strategies behind it, if thats more difficult in mobas or rts games, well i guess thats just opinion based.
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On October 05 2013 06:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:
That example is just flawed as fk.
U cant compare the difference between 2 computergames with the differences between 2 real sports.
The computergames both use the same input devices, so u can create the skillimpact of the mechanics rather easy.
The same is not true for real sports at all, at least when u compare 2 sports that have nothing in common.
Everytime i have to read that teamwork is soooo difficult in mobas i have to ask, wtf are u even talking about??
The teamwork aspect in real sports is impressive cause they oftentimes cant talk to eachother directly. In a computergame they can, this makes it so much easier and way less impressive. It really isnt that hard to play as a team when there are calls and u just have to do your job. It all comes down to the mechanical part then..
The only real "difficult" aspect then is to understand the game and the strategies behind it, if thats more difficult in mobas or rts games, well i guess thats just opinion based.
Physical sports also use the same input devices (read: the human body). The difference is in the required mechanical execution. The similarities or differences as to what the games have "in common" is just up to your perception. I could say. "Both games involve a ball being pushed back and forth across a court to try and score in a specific goal area behind the opposition" and they look pretty similar or I could say "Tennis uses a racket and basketball players have to dribble and there are different rules" and they look very different.
Concerning the teamwork point. It's extremely important to find teams with good cohesion. In an athletic team sport there is a lot of practice involved in learning teammates' habits and specific skillsets so you can incorporate them into your strategy. The same is required of MOBA teams. Also, direct communication is absolutely critical in both athletic sports AND MOBA competition. You can see DOTA teams struggle all the time with miscommunications. Just because 5 players are mic.d up doesn't mean they can always continuously communicate effectively just imagine having 5 players operating in three portions of the maps constantly talking at the same time. Usually it's one team captain calling most of the shots, the same way it plays out in physical sports. Huge amounts of MOBA play is based on countless hours of practice to organize fluid team cooperation in any number of circumstances, not in game ad-hoc and unprepared executions.
Also the main crux of my point wasn't even about required skill sets so much as it was the apples and oranges comparison of requirements for 1v1 competitors and team oriented competitors difficulty. So you drawing focus to the need for understanding the differences in strategies and that the "difficulty" of this is up to opinion pretty well supports my point I feel.
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On October 04 2013 15:23 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 13:33 Chaggi wrote:On October 04 2013 12:51 ChoiSulli wrote:
Damn I think just referring people to Goldfish' post is all I need to do. Its such a good explanation as to why even though BW is infinetly harder to play, it is so fucking fun and you can feel yourself improving and it is such a rewarding feeling. I want to just make a point about the spectator experience, to me there is no WOW factor in sc2, nothing that impresses since its all fucking easy to do. Oh shit he targeted down the colossus oh shit he empd the entire army oh shit he spread out his death ball. There is more casuals who ladder in sc2 then there ever were in BW... in BW we all accepted we sucked at the game and werent going to be good enough and so we mostly played UMS. But we all fucking tuned in to watch the pros do shit we would never be able to. All you gotta do is go turn on Bisu's stream, first of all there is not anyone else that handsome and there is not anyone else that can play BW that way. Cool How in the hell does that develop a scene? It doesn't. Brutally hard games have a niche scene like what BW was outside of Korea. It doesn't mean that SC2 shouldn't be more in depth, and there's a shit ton that SC2 can and should learn from BW, but the fact that it was brutally hard and derp derp everyone sucked is not a good idea. Who wants to play a game that they suck at unless they practice 10 hours a day? Do you realize that every single game is niche game? Some people prefer shooters, some RTS, some MOBA etc.
I meant niche the scene outside of Korea was smaller than other scenes at the time like Counter Strike.
On October 05 2013 05:59 ChoiSulli wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 13:33 Chaggi wrote:On October 04 2013 12:51 ChoiSulli wrote:
Damn I think just referring people to Goldfish' post is all I need to do. Its such a good explanation as to why even though BW is infinetly harder to play, it is so fucking fun and you can feel yourself improving and it is such a rewarding feeling. I want to just make a point about the spectator experience, to me there is no WOW factor in sc2, nothing that impresses since its all fucking easy to do. Oh shit he targeted down the colossus oh shit he empd the entire army oh shit he spread out his death ball. There is more casuals who ladder in sc2 then there ever were in BW... in BW we all accepted we sucked at the game and werent going to be good enough and so we mostly played UMS. But we all fucking tuned in to watch the pros do shit we would never be able to. All you gotta do is go turn on Bisu's stream, first of all there is not anyone else that handsome and there is not anyone else that can play BW that way. Cool How in the hell does that develop a scene? It doesn't. Brutally hard games have a niche scene like what BW was outside of Korea. It doesn't mean that SC2 shouldn't be more in depth, and there's a shit ton that SC2 can and should learn from BW, but the fact that it was brutally hard and derp derp everyone sucked is not a good idea. Who wants to play a game that they suck at unless they practice 10 hours a day? I didnt suggest that BW being hard developed the scene? Spectator experience is far more important in the long run then game play. At BW a lot of people just fucked around on UMS, but the depth and excitement of the games themselves is what developed the BW scene. I watch all sorts of sports on TV that I dont play but I can appreciate the shit they are able to do, and it entertains me. BW has that, sc2 does not.. i know to each its own so that is strictly for me. I do still watch sc2 from time to time but mostly just because im invested in some of the old BW players. To your second point about who wants to play a game they suck at.... well I dont know if you played BW. Yes it is very hard but sucked is a relative term. We all sucked in it compared to the pros. I'm D+ in BW but I can go log on and rape master level players in SC2. The fact that I suck compared to so many other people, dosent mean I dont have fun playing. Yes its frustraiting when late game my mechanics let me down and I look up and have 2k minerals with only 120 supply, but at the same time I could sometimes watch a replay 10 times after I won, I would disect everything I did that game, I would gloat for fucking hours over that victory. That kind of satisfaction I dont get on the sc2 ladder. I think the main difference in BW and SC2 both in fun playing and spectator entertainment, is what happens after the armies get big, yes there are a lot of differences before then to, because in BW there is a lot more activity on the map but you have turtle games in BW also, especially PVT. In BW when a 200/200 P and T engage it is just the begining of the game. It turns into Terran constantly trying to take out expos while Toss is constantly trading at a loss and just trying to slow down the army, while denying Terran from expanding further. You can have battles all over the map, a terran can crush a battle but still not be able to move in and finish the game because reinforcing takes time, high ground is so advantages to toss, can further slow them down with storms, stasis, plus shitty pathing. In SC2 usually after one big battle if you won decisevely the game ends, ur in the opoents face, u reinforce so fast, and the giant death ball will rape the smaller death ball, because positioning, AOE, high ground and defenders advantage dont mean shit all in sc2.
I think you're def correct that BW is deeper and much harder to play thus giving people more respect for the game itself, but partially cause it's so brutally hard. However, for people starting out with SC2, you can say the same things, like what Magpie's article was saying, they're two different games.
As far as your second point, I'm one of the types that likes to do that too, I like breaking down my strategies and I did play BW... all the way to a D-. Pretty sure I've won maybe 1? game on ICCup but that might be in my dreams too but I did a stupid amount of playing for someone that sucked as much as me. However, once SC2 came out and I moved onto that, I immediately grabbed onto it. Sure it sucked when I got A'moved into while I'm trying to micro all my units and I just die but I found that there was a ton of stuff I could do and I didn't need to fight the game itself. For me, maybe it's breaking it down too simply but I don't want to fight the game, I want to fight the other player. This doesn't mean that SC2 can't learn stuff from BW and have more depth, and arguably it might be TOO easy now and the computer is helping TOO much, but at the end of the day, I'm having more fun with SC2 than BW because I don't have to fight that battle (and lose everytime) against the computer.
With that being said, SC2 needs more depth and more options and I think that can truly set it away from BW. I don't think it'll ever have as much depth as BW but if it gives options for different ways to play then I think it can be successful from a game standpoint.
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On October 05 2013 06:29 ChoiSulli wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 06:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 05 2013 05:59 ChoiSulli wrote: because positioning, AOE, high ground and defenders advantage dont mean shit all in sc2.
*Checks toss deathball main element*, oh i guess it does not mean shit. Positioning part is even funnier tbh, because positioning of those deathballs plays much larger role than statement ball implies. That is strictly referring to after Terran wins a battle, and is about to march down your door... In SC2 you can have the most beautiful concave ever, which isnt exciting anyway but whatever...and it still wont matter cause death ball size will roll you. You are probably right that since everything is going to die in 5 seconds whoever had their death ball in the better position will win the battle and since all the other things I mentioned dont matter after the fact, it means they'll go on and win the game.
Not sure about you but I think Terran concaves, especially super good ones and you're kiting multiple parts of it while storms are coming down are pretty f-ing awesome
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Just saw 377k on LoL dream. Wow just wow.
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On October 05 2013 03:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 02:08 ETisME wrote:On October 05 2013 01:52 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 05 2013 01:30 ETisME wrote:On October 05 2013 01:18 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 05 2013 01:10 ETisME wrote:On October 05 2013 00:48 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 04 2013 16:43 ETisME wrote:On October 04 2013 16:18 MikeMM wrote:On October 04 2013 15:36 ETisME wrote:[quote] bigger prizepool and such? here's a BW dreamhack final thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=132039more foreign major sponsors? as for the BW 15 years ago comment, sour that we don't live in 15 years ago anymore. Players don't invest so much time into a game anymore, they want an easier to pick up but hard to master game. No one wants to play a game that controls don't feel fluid. Don't think so? Check out the change in resident evil and FF. SC2 isn't NEW by any mean for a modern gaming standard, games like GTA V, BF4 are new. unless you would also consider final fantasy 13 to be new. (which already received several DLCs and sequels) SC2 will last however long until it faces another big competitor. Just like how BW was pretty safe from any competitions in S.Korea for years until League took over, a game that is easier, simplier, more international, and arguably a lot less depth than bw. I am not so sure about MOBA games being simpler and easier than BW. Yes for one player it’s easier to control one unit. But as a whole the game is more complicated since five players are needed to control all the heroes. What game is more complicated in SC2 5x5 or 1x1? Definitely 5x5. Team games are more complicated than single games I think it’s quite obvious. ok. so you are saying league is more complicated than bw. i have to disagree on that and leave the argument here Anyone with management experience knows just how insanely difficult it is to get people to work as a group. anyone who have read history would know how insanely rare it is to have a great strategist And anyone who read *actual* history knows that what made those strategists great was how they got hundreds and thousands of people to work together for a common goal. And how those "strategists" were just the leads of a team or even teams of strategists working together and leaning on the "leader" to make the final decision after his "subordinates" gives him the options that *they* come up together as a team. not really. that is the role of the emperor or the general/captain, not sure how it works in Western but in China, strategist are famous for famous strategies against another strategist read red cliff for example In western culture, everyone is allowed to give tactical decisions to their immediate superior and if they like your strategy it gets moved up the chain of command. At some point the general/captain gets dozens upon dozens of suggestions and plans, parses them, and take the best bits out of all of them and uses and incorporates them into the overall strategy. Sometimes he follows the ideas that started from the low echelons, sometimes he discards all of the ideas and just follows his. The goal is teamwork. Each general has several advisers to help him on strategy. each of them are in contact with several field commanders to inform them of the current state as well as to suggest strategies as well. Those field commanders have troop commanders who does the same for them. Those troop commanders have their own hierarchies and so on and so forth. that is completely different to chinese then teamwork is almost a given in China. Armies are always very organised, anyone tries to escape will be killed, and in some dynasty, even kill the whole family. The level of tactics used in China is not achievable for any low level officers because the famous ones are literally a genius: Sun Tzu - the art of war Zhuge Liang Psychological warfare against the opponent's strategist is often seen in Chinese warfare. This is also why art of war has become more studied in all around the world, even in the finance field because it is applied game theory. honestly it is sad that most westerns won't be reading them. The amount of depth in Art of war is crazy. especially one that is called the empty castle technique: you are down in army size by a large margin, you are going to get sieged. what do you do? Open the city gate. Empty the guards. Using small forces to act as if there is an ambush awaiting. Annoy them every night and insert rumors, causing complete confusion in the enemy army. just to add, the reason why that succeeded is because he knew the opposing tactican/commander was a suspicious person Those are all true for Western commanders as well. Western thought simply believes in teams helping each other and not putting all responsibility and decision making in just 1 person.
that will just falls down on the scale of the battle.
in China, battles are usually of ten thousands plus army. It wasn't rare that the emperor himself would go riding with them.
The strategist will put up battle plans along with the other higher ranked and experienced officers.
It was upto the strategists usually to put who in which roles based upon the officers reputation and the officers achieve what they can for battles.
Generals CAN use strategics and tactics to win, but that is only for his division of army, how to join up armies etcetc is mostly just the strategist decision because it is like a chess game with another strategist
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On October 05 2013 15:09 illidanx wrote:
Just saw 377k on LoL dream. Wow just wow.
I remember playing SC2 when it was beta and early release at a local netcafe with friends. Two kids were playing this ugly looking moba game that I didn't even know it's name. I smirked arrogantly and pondered at them.
3 years later I have to force myself to rarely watch SC2, while watching the LoL finals was an awesome experience. On one hand, it makes me sad to watch my favorite RTS franchise slowly rot. But sadly it doesn't deserve anything more.
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On October 05 2013 15:09 illidanx wrote:
Just saw 377k on LoL dream. Wow just wow.
Dustin Beck @RiotRedBeard 1h
You guys are mind-blowing!! Over 1mm ccu for game 1 on Twitch/YT/Azubu/DM, and that doesn't even include the two countries playing!!
Dustin Beck @RiotRedBeard 1h
Hard to get real-time data from China/Korea, but we'd conservatively estimate another 1mm on their streams. And then there's TV...
Dustin Beck @RiotRedBeard 1h
TV hard to predict live, but again conservative estimates put it at over 4mm households...best fans ever
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On October 05 2013 16:39 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 15:09 illidanx wrote:
Just saw 377k on LoL dream. Wow just wow.
Dustin Beck @RiotRedBeard 1h You guys are mind-blowing!! Over 1mm ccu for game 1 on Twitch/YT/Azubu/DM, and that doesn't even include the two countries playing!! Dustin Beck @RiotRedBeard 1h Hard to get real-time data from China/Korea, but we'd conservatively estimate another 1mm on their streams. And then there's TV... Dustin Beck @RiotRedBeard 1h TV hard to predict live, but again conservative estimates put it at over 4mm households...best fans ever
IMO, moba is simply the better esports for the casuals. Psychologically, every avatar in game feels like an athlete because of one-to-one connection between the gamer and the champion. When I see Faker's champion dancing around owning people, it really felt like the player is inside the game performing miracles. Meanwhile, RTS is a little unnatural because the player controls an army like a commander. Few sports in real life are like that.
And speaking of skill ceiling, few outside of RTS cares about this. Nobody cares about football having higher skill ceiling than say, tennis. It is more important to have SKILL DIFFERENTIATION. A sport needs to have Tiger Woods, Kobe Byrant, and Messi who are clearly and consistently better than the average pros. This tells the viewers that this is a sport where skill matters. In BW, we have Flash. In Dota, we have Mushi, In LoL, it's Faker hyping the Korean fans.
In SC2, I struggle to name that one player. SC2 needs to reduce uncertainty and build order losses.
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On October 05 2013 16:51 quainter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 16:39 ETisME wrote:On October 05 2013 15:09 illidanx wrote:
Just saw 377k on LoL dream. Wow just wow.
Dustin Beck @RiotRedBeard 1h You guys are mind-blowing!! Over 1mm ccu for game 1 on Twitch/YT/Azubu/DM, and that doesn't even include the two countries playing!! Dustin Beck @RiotRedBeard 1h Hard to get real-time data from China/Korea, but we'd conservatively estimate another 1mm on their streams. And then there's TV... Dustin Beck @RiotRedBeard 1h TV hard to predict live, but again conservative estimates put it at over 4mm households...best fans ever IMO, moba is simply the better esports for the casuals. Psychologically, every avatar in game feels like an athlete because of one-to-one connection between the gamer and the champion. When I see Faker's champion dancing around owning people, it really felt like the player is inside the game performing miracles. Meanwhile, RTS is a little unnatural because the player controls an army like a commander. Few sports in real life are like that.
tonnes of people complain that MOBA is the worst esport to watch because 5 men action and you can't focus on one
Guess people don't really care about that and just watch the game and have fun
and to some extend I agree with you, I didn't enjoy watching dota that much though, probably the game just feels a bit too slow sometimes
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On October 05 2013 16:56 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 16:51 quainter wrote:On October 05 2013 16:39 ETisME wrote:On October 05 2013 15:09 illidanx wrote:
Just saw 377k on LoL dream. Wow just wow.
Dustin Beck @RiotRedBeard 1h You guys are mind-blowing!! Over 1mm ccu for game 1 on Twitch/YT/Azubu/DM, and that doesn't even include the two countries playing!! Dustin Beck @RiotRedBeard 1h Hard to get real-time data from China/Korea, but we'd conservatively estimate another 1mm on their streams. And then there's TV... Dustin Beck @RiotRedBeard 1h TV hard to predict live, but again conservative estimates put it at over 4mm households...best fans ever IMO, moba is simply the better esports for the casuals. Psychologically, every avatar in game feels like an athlete because of one-to-one connection between the gamer and the champion. When I see Faker's champion dancing around owning people, it really felt like the player is inside the game performing miracles. Meanwhile, RTS is a little unnatural because the player controls an army like a commander. Few sports in real life are like that. tonnes of people complain that MOBA is the worst esport to watch because 5 men action and you can't focus on one Guess people don't really care about that and just watch the game and have fun and to some extend I agree with you, I didn't enjoy watching dota that much though, probably the game just feels a bit too slow sometimes
Those who complained must not have watched team sports. Take soccer for example, 22 players on the field, but nobody could be analyzing the movement of every player. Instead, we pay attention to the playmakers of the moment. We watch Messi when he's dribbling past opponents. In LOL, it's Faker dancing around and owning 3 champions.
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On October 05 2013 17:01 quainter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 16:56 ETisME wrote:On October 05 2013 16:51 quainter wrote:On October 05 2013 16:39 ETisME wrote:On October 05 2013 15:09 illidanx wrote:
Just saw 377k on LoL dream. Wow just wow.
Dustin Beck @RiotRedBeard 1h You guys are mind-blowing!! Over 1mm ccu for game 1 on Twitch/YT/Azubu/DM, and that doesn't even include the two countries playing!! Dustin Beck @RiotRedBeard 1h Hard to get real-time data from China/Korea, but we'd conservatively estimate another 1mm on their streams. And then there's TV... Dustin Beck @RiotRedBeard 1h TV hard to predict live, but again conservative estimates put it at over 4mm households...best fans ever IMO, moba is simply the better esports for the casuals. Psychologically, every avatar in game feels like an athlete because of one-to-one connection between the gamer and the champion. When I see Faker's champion dancing around owning people, it really felt like the player is inside the game performing miracles. Meanwhile, RTS is a little unnatural because the player controls an army like a commander. Few sports in real life are like that. tonnes of people complain that MOBA is the worst esport to watch because 5 men action and you can't focus on one Guess people don't really care about that and just watch the game and have fun and to some extend I agree with you, I didn't enjoy watching dota that much though, probably the game just feels a bit too slow sometimes Those who complained must not have watched team sports. Take soccer for example, 22 players on the field, but nobody could be analyzing the movement of every player. Instead, we pay attention to the playmakers of the moment. We watch Messi when he's dribbling past opponents. In LOL, it's Faker dancing around and owning 3 champions.
Not really, in soccer you have one ball you can focus the screen on, and where you see most action happening.
That's one of the reasons why I think neither, RTS nor Moba are really viewer friendly. As a viewer I want one screen on which everything of importance is happening.
I don't need to see the medivac picking up stuff and starting to fly, but I want to see the drop and the engagement.
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Why is there not WCS for every country?
WCS-Austria WCS-Italy WCS-Germany WCS-USA and so on
and at the end of the year the best of the best play against each other. This doesn´t mean we won´t see any EU vs Korea matches, since there are other tournaments. I´m pretty sure this system would be a huge viewer boost for sc2.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On October 05 2013 17:26 Big-t wrote:
Why is there not WCS for every country?
WCS-Austria WCS-Italy WCS-Germany WCS-USA and so on
and at the end of the year the best of the best play against each other. This doesn´t mean we won´t see any EU vs Korea matches, since there are other tournaments. I´m pretty sure this system would be a huge viewer boost for sc2.
WCG.
WCS 2012.
The end result is always the same anyways.
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On October 05 2013 17:26 Big-t wrote:
Why is there not WCS for every country?
WCS-Austria WCS-Italy WCS-Germany WCS-USA and so on
and at the end of the year the best of the best play against each other. This doesn´t mean we won´t see any EU vs Korea matches, since there are other tournaments. I´m pretty sure this system would be a huge viewer boost for sc2.
Im gonna have to agree with that , I wish WCS would take this from WCG.
Local community qualifiers -> regional tournament -> global finals......I wish they would do this !
As a person living in a country which doesn't even appear on the e-sports radar * , WCG is the best thing that ever happened to our gaming scene , prior to 2011 I didnt even know we had sc2 players , now we have a growing community of players who are hungry for competition , and love our game , this helped us bring in more players and enjoy the game 1000 times more than how we did in 2010.
If that can happen in a small country like mine , I can only start to imagine what it would do on a global scale.
* Riot didnt even give us support to run our WCG (server + clients) this year because we dont appear on the e-sports radar , who cares we have dota 2 now :D , kiss my ass riot !!!!!!
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On October 05 2013 17:55 Tchado wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 17:26 Big-t wrote:
Why is there not WCS for every country?
WCS-Austria WCS-Italy WCS-Germany WCS-USA and so on
and at the end of the year the best of the best play against each other. This doesn´t mean we won´t see any EU vs Korea matches, since there are other tournaments. I´m pretty sure this system would be a huge viewer boost for sc2. Im gonna have to agree with that , I wish WCS would take this from WCG. Local community qualifiers -> regional tournament -> global finals......I wish they would do this ! As a person living in a country which doesn't even appear on the e-sports radar * , WCG is the best thing that ever happened to our gaming scene , prior to 2011 I didnt even know we had sc2 players , now we have a growing community of players who are hungry for competition , and love our game , this helped us bring in more players and enjoy the game 1000 times more than how we did in 2010. If that can happen in a small country like mine , I can only start to imagine what it would do on a global scale. * Riot didnt even give us support to run our WCG (server + clients) this year because we dont appear on the e-sports radar , who cares we have dota 2 now :D , kiss my ass riot !!!!!!
Same here, with Monchi not able to play we don´t have any pros in Austria left. I don´t even know who would be the 2. best Austrian atm because I never see them in tournaments. A WCS system for all countries, including those which don´t even appear on the e-sport radar (nice comparative).
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honestly that is not the top priority for sure if they can't even fix their damn viewership on the bigger, more developed scene like KR and CN
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EPT
