On October 01 2013 15:41 painkilla wrote: I wonder how much SC2 these SC2 haters really watch. The recent code S games (with jjakji, Bogus, Flash, Maru) are very very good. Just now we have Life vs Leenock with constant battle/harassment all over the map, ending up with a very good engagement from Leenock. Yet they keep repeating the same thing over and over "200/200 battle ending in a few seconds". SC2 has been much better to watch than it had in WoL. So if something is making it less popular, it isn't the quality of games.
The PvZ MU is still kinda bad but it is ok to have 1 or 2 bad MUs.
The answer: none. It isn't news at this point that they have no actual idea how the game is played at the top level.
Remember this rule of thumb: When it's difficult and APM-intensive to do something properly in BW, it's celebrated. When it's difficult and APM-intensive to do something properly in SC2, it's bad design.
this brings a question, are those difficult and apm-intensive action enjoyable for spectator to watch? Does it need to be difficult and apm-intensive to be enjoyable and is a high level move?
LoL for example, isn't difficult to understand and know what's going on with the engagements. something like this:
What about bw for example, ask some one without much experience, are they going to be impressed at someone moving 200 maxed supply army around?
It's fun to watch for the same reason watching Lionel Messi do magic on a football field is fun, the same reason people applaud incredible maneuvers that exceed the norm in any sport, even if the result of a beautiful goal and the goalie fumbling a pass is the same, it's the visual magic of watching something that is almost incomprehensibly hard being done before your eyes. The inherent difficulty makes it all the more amazing, knowing how hard it is. I want to see the best gamers, I want to find out who is most individually skilled player out there. And I think a suitably difficult RTS is the best platform to test that on, it requires a combination of attributes that you don't really find in any other genre.
When Flash was dominating BW I watched that and knew I was watching the very best gamer in the world. When I watch LoL I see nothing I could not have done myself, when I watch the best players in BW play huge macro games I'm sitting dumbstruck at the sheer level of skill displayed.
On October 01 2013 15:41 painkilla wrote: I wonder how much SC2 these SC2 haters really watch. The recent code S games (with jjakji, Bogus, Flash, Maru) are very very good. Just now we have Life vs Leenock with constant battle/harassment all over the map, ending up with a very good engagement from Leenock. Yet they keep repeating the same thing over and over "200/200 battle ending in a few seconds". SC2 has been much better to watch than it had in WoL. So if something is making it less popular, it isn't the quality of games.
The PvZ MU is still kinda bad but it is ok to have 1 or 2 bad MUs.
The answer: none. It isn't news at this point that they have no actual idea how the game is played at the top level.
Remember this rule of thumb: When it's difficult and APM-intensive to do something properly in BW, it's celebrated. When it's difficult and APM-intensive to do something properly in SC2, it's bad design.
this brings a question, are those difficult and apm-intensive action enjoyable for spectator to enjoy? Does it need to be difficult and apm-intensive to be enjoyable and is a high level move?
Enjoyable is a wrong measure here, you are not going to measure it with something that does not depend on opinion. I, for one, find general BW bug-abusing micro techniques boring to watch, since it is rather repetitive. Do i find SC2's micro enjoyable? Uhm, not really, they are looking cool, but about as boring to watch as BW micro. So no, you are not going to make it enjoyable to watch. Uh, noticed you mentioned word impressive. Well, everything i can't do is impressive for me. For one, i cannot split marines and macro in the same time in SC2 (and you could not physically dodge lurker shots and macro in the same time in BW anyways). So, when i see this happening in SC2 it is impressive for me. When i see someone macroing it up behind muta micro, i am impressed. But is it enjoyable to watch? Uhm, no. So yes, impressive!=enjoyable.
Enjoyment is not quantifiable but it doesn't mean it is unmeasurable. When you take customer survey, it often asks for you giving stars or "horrible bad acceptable great perfect" etc. we even have that stars measurement for LR thread.
What I am talking about is for an outsider to just look at a game, and being able to tell if the game is enjoyable to watch or not. APM-intensive and difficult don't warrant that. not saying all APM intensive and difficult moves are bad, but it needs to be able to impress (I didn't use impress earlier :p) or at least entertain the viewers with it.
and to Squat, the level of mind games, when to use what spell and micro and instant reaction and timing to use cleanse etc are impressive for an experienced LoL player. But for general new comer, they would at least see one champion killing another while being lower health etc. if you think you can copy that yourself. well, I can only say you just don't understand that mechanics there at all.
While for new comer to BW, if they see workers mining, it feels pretty safe to assume the workers are automatically rallied to mine. That somehow takes up a lot of apm and attention for pros to perform yet new comers can't appreciate.
The fact that I have been forced to do the exact same thing vs Protoss for the past 3 years is a serious problem. SC2 only has 3 races ffs, they can't do something to spice it up?
On October 01 2013 15:41 painkilla wrote: I wonder how much SC2 these SC2 haters really watch. The recent code S games (with jjakji, Bogus, Flash, Maru) are very very good. Just now we have Life vs Leenock with constant battle/harassment all over the map, ending up with a very good engagement from Leenock. Yet they keep repeating the same thing over and over "200/200 battle ending in a few seconds". SC2 has been much better to watch than it had in WoL. So if something is making it less popular, it isn't the quality of games.
The PvZ MU is still kinda bad but it is ok to have 1 or 2 bad MUs.
The answer: none. It isn't news at this point that they have no actual idea how the game is played at the top level.
Remember this rule of thumb: When it's difficult and APM-intensive to do something properly in BW, it's celebrated. When it's difficult and APM-intensive to do something properly in SC2, it's bad design.
this brings a question, are those difficult and apm-intensive action enjoyable for spectator to enjoy? Does it need to be difficult and apm-intensive to be enjoyable and is a high level move?
Enjoyable is a wrong measure here, you are not going to measure it with something that does not depend on opinion. I, for one, find general BW bug-abusing micro techniques boring to watch, since it is rather repetitive. Do i find SC2's micro enjoyable? Uhm, not really, they are looking cool, but about as boring to watch as BW micro. So no, you are not going to make it enjoyable to watch. Uh, noticed you mentioned word impressive. Well, everything i can't do is impressive for me. For one, i cannot split marines and macro in the same time in SC2 (and you could not physically dodge lurker shots and macro in the same time in BW anyways). So, when i see this happening in SC2 it is impressive for me. When i see someone macroing it up behind muta micro, i am impressed. But is it enjoyable to watch? Uhm, no. So yes, impressive!=enjoyable.
Enjoyment is not quantifiable but it doesn't mean it is unmeasurable. When you take customer survey, it often asks for you giving stars or "horrible bad acceptable great perfect" etc. we even have that stars measurement for LR thread.
What I am talking about is for an outsider to just look at a game, and being able to tell if the game is enjoyable to watch or not. APM-intensive and difficult don't warrant that. not saying all APM intensive and difficult moves are bad, but it needs to be able to impress (I didn't use impress earlier :p) or at least entertain the viewers with it.
and to Squat, the level of mind games, when to use what spell and micro and instant reaction and timing to use cleanse etc are impressive for an experienced LoL player. But for general new comer, they would at least see one champion killing another while being lower health etc. if you think you can copy that yourself. well, I can only say you just don't understand that mechanics there at all.
While for new comer to BW, if they see workers mining, it feels pretty safe to assume the workers are automatically rallied to mine. That somehow takes up a lot of apm and attention for pros to perform yet new comers can't appreciate.
I don't mean I could play with those guys, I was never much good with team games. But I did play Dota for a while and I could kite around and micro and last hit and deny fairly well(why is that missing from LoL btw? That's a massive chunk of the skillcap being taken out). The difference was decision making and coordination with team mates, and general game knowledge. Mechanically, I didn't find anything too difficult.
As for cleansing and reaction times and mind games, all that existed in WoW arena PvP too, except it was more complex and difficult in terms of hand-eye coordination, and yet no one ever gave a shit about that game as an esport. Not saying LoL is not a good game or a bad esport or something, but I really can't be dazzled by games that don't have a certain level of mechanical difficulty in the same way. If you are extremely fast and good at multitasking the game should reward you for that, imo. And I only really care about the best individual player.
to be honest, blizz knows all this, and the fact that they are not doing anything goes to show that they have other plans for sc2. which means that the problem with sc2 is sc2 itself.
On October 01 2013 15:41 painkilla wrote: I wonder how much SC2 these SC2 haters really watch. The recent code S games (with jjakji, Bogus, Flash, Maru) are very very good. Just now we have Life vs Leenock with constant battle/harassment all over the map, ending up with a very good engagement from Leenock. Yet they keep repeating the same thing over and over "200/200 battle ending in a few seconds". SC2 has been much better to watch than it had in WoL. So if something is making it less popular, it isn't the quality of games.
The PvZ MU is still kinda bad but it is ok to have 1 or 2 bad MUs.
The answer: none. It isn't news at this point that they have no actual idea how the game is played at the top level.
Remember this rule of thumb: When it's difficult and APM-intensive to do something properly in BW, it's celebrated. When it's difficult and APM-intensive to do something properly in SC2, it's bad design.
this brings a question, are those difficult and apm-intensive action enjoyable for spectator to enjoy? Does it need to be difficult and apm-intensive to be enjoyable and is a high level move?
Enjoyable is a wrong measure here, you are not going to measure it with something that does not depend on opinion. I, for one, find general BW bug-abusing micro techniques boring to watch, since it is rather repetitive. Do i find SC2's micro enjoyable? Uhm, not really, they are looking cool, but about as boring to watch as BW micro. So no, you are not going to make it enjoyable to watch. Uh, noticed you mentioned word impressive. Well, everything i can't do is impressive for me. For one, i cannot split marines and macro in the same time in SC2 (and you could not physically dodge lurker shots and macro in the same time in BW anyways). So, when i see this happening in SC2 it is impressive for me. When i see someone macroing it up behind muta micro, i am impressed. But is it enjoyable to watch? Uhm, no. So yes, impressive!=enjoyable.
Enjoyment is not quantifiable but it doesn't mean it is unmeasurable. When you take customer survey, it often asks for you giving stars or "horrible bad acceptable great perfect" etc. we even have that stars measurement for LR thread.
What I am talking about is for an outsider to just look at a game, and being able to tell if the game is enjoyable to watch or not. APM-intensive and difficult don't warrant that. not saying all APM intensive and difficult moves are bad, but it needs to be able to impress (I didn't use impress earlier :p) or at least entertain the viewers with it.
and to Squat, the level of mind games, when to use what spell and micro and instant reaction and timing to use cleanse etc are impressive for an experienced LoL player. But for general new comer, they would at least see one champion killing another while being lower health etc. if you think you can copy that yourself. well, I can only say you just don't understand that mechanics there at all.
While for new comer to BW, if they see workers mining, it feels pretty safe to assume the workers are automatically rallied to mine. That somehow takes up a lot of apm and attention for pros to perform yet new comers can't appreciate.
I don't mean I could play with those guys, I was never much good with team games. But I did play Dota for a while and I could kite around and micro and last hit and deny fairly well(why is that missing from LoL btw? That's a massive chunk of the skillcap being taken out). The difference was decision making and coordination with team mates, and general game knowledge. Mechanically, I didn't find anything too difficult.
As for cleansing and reaction times and mind games, all that existed in WoW arena PvP too, except it was more complex and difficult in terms of hand-eye coordination, and yet no one ever gave a shit about that game as an esport. Not saying LoL is not a good game or a bad esport or something, but I really can't be dazzled by games that don't have a certain level of mechanical difficulty in the same way. If you are extremely fast and good at multitasking the game should reward you for that, imo. And I only really care about the best individual player.
I think this is exactly what I was surprised as well, I for one thought league will just die off when I first heard about it years ago. Dota had tonnes of depth with turn rate, vision AND denying.
But League took those hardcore mechanics out and actually became a successful game. And why is that? Because it took away some of the lesser interesting things and boost it up on more important areas, such as some champions not needing mana, spells aren't going to depreciate in late game, less hardcore carry than dota, less snowballing and more come backs. It also has the depth of team movements, such as ganking etc. With them, the game has enough depth to keep entertaining viewers and having the good players to differentiate from the lesser ones. . League is less about multi tasking, that's for sure, but league has done the right thing right and that's why they are succcessful. when they people watch a MOBA game, they want to watch intelligent play, ganking, positioning, splitpushing, mind games with baiting and counter baiting and team fights combo. Not apm spamming or getting the courier to deliver items (i.e. multi tasking) It's a bit like watching a protoss landing perfect forcefields, it doesn't need difficult mechanics, but it needs clean and precise mouse clicks.
On October 01 2013 19:10 niteReloaded wrote: The only reason I even care about SC2 is because of the people involved. Seing and hearing Tasteless & Artosis, knowing some community veterans are still around makes me 'force myself' to look at SC2 just to have a feeling I'm not abandoning some great people. If there was a new, better RTS around, and the people I appreciate just switched, I wouldn't feel sorry 1% about SC2 because as a game, it's just water under the bridge. Like a decent movie you watched, but nothing 'sticks'.
I actually wonder now if more people are actually 'supporting' SC2 because of this... People at Blizzard get a false feedback this way.
I have to say I'm basically in the same boat. I like the stories, I like the people. I'm interested in seeing who will beat who on what day to advance their storyline further or who will lose and have to fight back from a worse spot than before. I'm intersted in all the awesome community contributions and shows (starcrafts, meta, state of the game etc). The thing that is lagging waaaaaay behind for me, is actually the game itself unfortunately (I was never big into BW so it has nothing to do with that for me). I'm basically on board till LOTV though to see how that goes. Hoping for the best and maybe some big surprises drop with that expansion. One can hope.
MOBA typically have one focus of action usually which makes it for a easier time to observe and enjoy while we have only a few good observers in SC2 (The 1-2 EU guys and GSL/Kepsa). While requiring more APM BW units moved at a slower pace and had slower animations. It was easier to watch and know what is going on.
MOBA is insanely unobservable, IMO. Five foci of actions, lots of arbitrary timers and background numbers (in LoL's case even worse with runes) that cannot be seen onscreen. In Starcraft, a Stalker is a Stalker from game to game and you can slowly build an idea of what it is capable of just by watching. In LoL, rune/item builds throw a huge, largely unseen wrench into that evaluation. WC3 has the same issue.
I remember someone once saying that you can show him a screenshot of Starcraft, and he can tell you what would be a good idea. In WC3, not so much.
On October 02 2013 06:35 Coffee Zombie wrote: MOBA is insanely unobservable, IMO. Five foci of actions, lots of arbitrary timers and background numbers (in LoL's case even worse with runes) that cannot be seen onscreen. In Starcraft, a Stalker is a Stalker from game to game and you can slowly build an idea of what it is capable of just by watching. In LoL, rune/item builds throw a huge, largely unseen wrench into that evaluation. WC3 has the same issue.
I remember someone once saying that you can show him a screenshot of Starcraft, and he can tell you what would be a good idea. In WC3, not so much.
What ARTS games overdo in action and foci, they make up for in lack of deep mechanics and multitasking. It's much easier to understand what goes on in an ARTS game once you're familiar with it than to really grasp the subtlety of a SC2 pro's move in most cases.
Although it is arguable. ARTS games have a lot of heroes who do a lot of different things, and in the case of DotA 2 and HoN, the learning curve is very steep. I suppose it's comparable, the attention of the viewer is simply focused on different aspects for each game.
Nonetheless, for most people, it is much more entertaining to watch a bunch of heroes use fancy looking spells on each other than it is to watch 30 second battles of very clustered units.
WC3 is somewhere in the middle (which is why I'm convinced a game like WC3 would be a huge success right now). There are core aspects of a RTS game and there are heroes, but not many. I think WC3 has 20 heroes, and most of the attention is focused on micro, exchanges between players as well as techniques and strategic decisions (although to a much lighter degree than for SC2 for the last two). There are four races in WC3 though, and each race has their own particular characteristics, so there is also that to learn about.
In the end, any game you watch will require you to have at least a small clue of what is going on before you can really appreciate it. The real factor is how hard it is to get to know what is going on and how long it takes. It depends on the game and varies with each individual, if you ask me.
If Blizzard doesn't step up and fundamentally redesign the game, there's nothing that can be done about SC2's consistent decline. Blizzard's days are numbered until people turn their backs on Blizzard's games.
On October 01 2013 22:08 Rhaegal wrote: The fact that I have been forced to do the exact same thing vs Protoss for the past 3 years is a serious problem. SC2 only has 3 races ffs, they can't do something to spice it up?
Yes! This needed to be said.
TvP is a big part of all of the problems,
You have seen the exact same thing every time since release pretty much.
TvZ has had huge changes to make it exciting and ZvP has to. But TvP is just as stagnant as it can get.
I thought Destiny was wrong when he posted that "Starcraft 2 will be dead before Legacy of the Void if Blizzard doesn't change its course" article a year ago. But now I've realized that he was actually right. " I can't see SC2 being considered a serious competitive game come 2 years from now" - 1 year already has passed and with all the team disbanding and players retiring news I'm afraid his prediction will come true sooner than that.
If Blizzard doesn't step up and fundamentally redesign the game, there's nothing that can be done about SC2's consistent decline. Blizzard's days are numbered until people turn their backs on Blizzard's games.
Even if Blizzard redesigned it greatly, I'd still watch it only occasionally with current casters and tournament models. And I'd play it even less often, with current so called "community" in bnet and the abundance of other great games in the market. What I am saying is it's not the game design that puts me off mostly, although it can be improved too, no question about that. Different people dislike different things about SC2 and you won't please everyone.
the thing is, the game is finished. blizzard can't redesign this game anymore. perhaps with LOTV but if they don't set a insanely large team on it, that game will be delayed by perhaps even 2 years. i believe blizzard needs to change it's course a bit though. focus less on wanting to promote harassment and work more on things that are a bit imbalanced. don't nerf or buff something because a certain strategy is being used for a longer period of time. as long as it works it is viable. no need to fuck up the entire game though with a redesign. could be awesome but it could also fail miserably.
On October 01 2013 15:13 jotmang wrote: What's the problem with SC2? It's a great game. All they need to do is change the name so it doesn't have Starcraft in it.
"Starcraft 2's biggest mistake was naming itself after the greatest of all: Starcraft: Brood War."
On September 30 2013 11:35 ppshchik wrote: Visual and sound effects: SC2 sound effects are just too bland. As some poster once complained: Zerglings attack used to sound like ramming in BW but now in SC2 it sounds like dropping a dead cockcroah on a piece of paper. I can still remember the attack and death voices of every Zerg unit in BW. In SC2 all the dead Zergs’ voice were “splat” and “splutter”
As for visuals, Blizzard has been “WoW’ing” the artworks of their characters. The characters in BW and Diablo 2 were much more serious looking and intimidating imo. The SC2 units and Diablo 3 characters looking like WoW characters made me think that Blizzard just want to attract their WoW fan base with their other products.
Game mechanics: When it comes to “dumbing down the game”, smart casting, MBS, and massive unit selection are not as big of an issue as BW elitists claim to be.
Most posters stated that the collision was the main problem for SC2. The collision in SC2 has made the units too clumped up to the point where positioning was no longer important.
You can implement the three things mentioned above in BW and BW will be just as hard. Try A moving 100 dragoons selected in one single group into a tank line, trust me it will still be the same outcome. Collision is the main issue
Mules, chronoboosts, and spawn larvae were also an issue as well. Killing huge amounts of workers from harassment such as a storm drops usually brought us great comebacks in BW. However, with the addition of mules, chronoboosts, and spawn larvae, coming back with harassment is no longer viable since the three abilities above can just replenish workers in no time. In SC2, once you lost map control, you have no way of coming back from a disadvantage
Finally, the two geysers / refineries rule is the most retarded thing ever since you get less units which means less huge armies. Why complicate simple stuff such as resource collection whilst dumbing down something important such as unit mechanics? Blizzard?
this is a good post, and was ignored sadly... sound are really important for me, and they screwed them so badly
On October 01 2013 15:13 jotmang wrote: What's the problem with SC2? It's a great game. All they need to do is change the name so it doesn't have Starcraft in it.
On September 30 2013 11:35 ppshchik wrote: Visual and sound effects: SC2 sound effects are just too bland. As some poster once complained: Zerglings attack used to sound like ramming in BW but now in SC2 it sounds like dropping a dead cockcroah on a piece of paper. I can still remember the attack and death voices of every Zerg unit in BW. In SC2 all the dead Zergs’ voice were “splat” and “splutter”
As for visuals, Blizzard has been “WoW’ing” the artworks of their characters. The characters in BW and Diablo 2 were much more serious looking and intimidating imo. The SC2 units and Diablo 3 characters looking like WoW characters made me think that Blizzard just want to attract their WoW fan base with their other products.
Game mechanics: When it comes to “dumbing down the game”, smart casting, MBS, and massive unit selection are not as big of an issue as BW elitists claim to be.
Most posters stated that the collision was the main problem for SC2. The collision in SC2 has made the units too clumped up to the point where positioning was no longer important.
You can implement the three things mentioned above in BW and BW will be just as hard. Try A moving 100 dragoons selected in one single group into a tank line, trust me it will still be the same outcome. Collision is the main issue
Mules, chronoboosts, and spawn larvae were also an issue as well. Killing huge amounts of workers from harassment such as a storm drops usually brought us great comebacks in BW. However, with the addition of mules, chronoboosts, and spawn larvae, coming back with harassment is no longer viable since the three abilities above can just replenish workers in no time. In SC2, once you lost map control, you have no way of coming back from a disadvantage
Finally, the two geysers / refineries rule is the most retarded thing ever since you get less units which means less huge armies. Why complicate simple stuff such as resource collection whilst dumbing down something important such as unit mechanics? Blizzard?
this is a good post, and was ignored sadly... sound are really important for me, and they screwed them so badly
Sounds and music are really awful in sc2. The only decent sound was pew pew from Ghosts, but then snipe was nerfed and we don’t hear it anymore.
EPT
