EPTSC2 has been much better to watch than it had in WoL. So if something is making it less popular, it isn't the quality of games.
The PvZ MU is still kinda bad but it is ok to have 1 or 2 bad MUs.
StarCraft 2: What's The Problem - Page 38
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painkilla
United States695 Posts
SC2 has been much better to watch than it had in WoL. So if something is making it less popular, it isn't the quality of games. The PvZ MU is still kinda bad but it is ok to have 1 or 2 bad MUs. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 01 2013 02:38 lolfail9001 wrote: You gave me a mechanic between lurker and marine (that i am yet to see in serious macro games in 2010 BW, probably because i do not watch much BW, as it is boring for me). Now give me other mechanics, okay? I for one, know the lurker vs marine mechanic and i just side with position that states that the only reason marines were good in TvZ is because lurkers did not completely roflstomp 'em like tanks, storms and reavers did. so how is it you are debating about BW when you just admitted that you haven't watched much BW to even see said mechanics? It's like me saying that I haven't seen a certain mechanic happen in SCII even though I haven't watched much recently lol. Either way, marines vs. lurkers is quite a dynamic battle. If you haven't seen this, then I'm afraid you haven't watched any BW at all XD Most TvZs have the terran split his marines and Boxer was known for his 3 marines vs lurker micro where he reacts fast enough when the lurker attacks and moves the marine it targets out of the way: It's so beautiful. By the way, there were 2 lurkers there(above and below) and he killed both without losing a single marine! Also keep in mind this was back in like 2003 or around that time, as in way back then so you can only imagine how much better player are against lurkers lol. As for bio against tanks, well, it's nuts to go bio against a mech player. Tank can splash from half a screen away so you would never be able to approach them unless you used drops(never tried to my knowledge). Flash actually 3 bunker contained Horang2 in a game. It was 3 bunkers full of marines+tanks and he actually managed to survive despite Horang2's spectacular reaver micro and constantly pressure to break out. He eventually win the game but not before hanging on like a madman lol. Only Flash is capable of such feats imo(maybe Fantasy too). For bio against hts, don't see it much either but here's a perfect example: + Show Spoiler + KTViolet against Hiya(PvT). Hiya went up against hts(storm) and won in the end. Mostly bio with the goliaths here and there(and several tanks at the beginning). Storm dodging is possible, it's just hard to do, that's all. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
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Quixotic_tv
Germany130 Posts
I also heard Blizzard made SC2 just to destroy it. Seriously: I liked BW back in the days. I can tell you what the real problem is: The problem is you, the never content, shitstorm addicted community. The elitist "a different game is better than this" people. Pathological nostalgics that think they contribute to the SC2 community by praising BW, constantly whining over something they do not understand from a developer's or marketing perspective. I have witnessed exactly the same with a different game, Heroes of Newerth. People praised Dota2 over HoN even before anyone has seen Dota2. The HoN forum was -and is- full of constant whining about the game and that it was dying. Say what, it's still alive! Concerning the BW players that are retiring: They played a game for years on the highest level. Switching to a different game, even to the successor, on pro level must be harder than anything. I can totally understand that people like Bisu, who were luminarys in BW, decide to retire from SC2, where they are struggling. There is one thing I do not understand: BW still exists. You can play it. You can watch it. You don't have to mourn about SC2. You can go into to the BW section and tell anyone there BW is the greatest game ever made. Heck, I never would dare to go into a LoL forum, constantly whine about it and tell the players how elitist I am because I like Dota and HoN. And I really do hate LoL. And I mean really hate, like wanting to go Riot and make a big poop on their keyboards. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On October 01 2013 18:29 papalion wrote: I heard BW made gold rain from the sky, heal the sick, make world peace and can run over water. And it did so without any of your fancy modern tricks like "actually having units that do what you tell them to" and "being able to group a bunch of stuff on one hotkey" damn it! On a more serious note...I was just thinking about that game of...was it Life vs PartinG? Where they accidentally played on a slower speed? I wonder what'd happen if that was tried out some more. There was some really impressive stuff in that game and slowing it all down just fractionally like that meant things lived longer and people had more time to make decisions. It'd be interesting to see a mini-tournament or something at that speed to see how it'd change things rather than any of the more drastic stuff suggested. Of course there'd need to be a rebalancing if it was made permanent but it makes you think. | ||
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MikeMM
Russian Federation221 Posts
On October 01 2013 18:29 papalion wrote: I heard BW made gold rain from the sky, heal the sick, make world peace and can run over water. I also heard Blizzard made SC2 just to destroy it. Seriously: I liked BW back in the days. I can tell you what the real problem is: The problem is you, the never content, shitstorm addicted community. The elitist "a different game is better than this" people. Pathological nostalgics that think they contribute to the SC2 community by praising BW, constantly whining over something they do not understand from a developer's or marketing perspective. I have witnessed exactly the same with a different game, Heroes of Newerth. People praised Dota2 over HoN even before anyone has seen Dota2. The HoN forum was -and is- full of constant whining about the game and that it was dying. Say what, it's still alive! Concerning the BW players that are retiring: They played a game for years on the highest level. Switching to a different game, even to the successor, on pro level must be harder than anything. I can totally understand that people like Bisu, who were luminarys in BW, decide to retire from SC2, where they are struggling. There is one thing I do not understand: BW still exists. You can play it. You can watch it. You don't have to mourn about SC2. You can go into to the BW section and tell anyone there BW is the greatest game ever made. Heck, I never would dare to go into a LoL forum, constantly whine about it and tell the players how elitist I am because I like Dota and HoN. And I really do hate LoL. And I mean really hate, like wanting to go Riot and make a big poop on their keyboards. BW people don’t hate SC universe as a whole and SC2 particularly. They are disappointed with sc2. I hope you can distinguish difference between hating something and being disappointed with something. As for watching BW I watch TLS and I would have watched SRT but I can’t find streams in English. | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
I actually wonder now if more people are actually 'supporting' SC2 because of this... People at Blizzard get a false feedback this way. | ||
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drkcid
Spain196 Posts
As spectator mainly, I have been watching less and less SC2 because almost every game its the same. There is a huge lack of strategy on SC2, It has become a game of pure skill rather a RTS. For example with your first scout you can know exactly what BO is using the enemy, even the timings, so you can use the standard BO against it. If you see a BOF5 1v1 (ie: TvP) of PRO players and T goes bio in 5 games changing vikings and ghost, while the P player goes 5 games gateway units changing colossus and HT at the end its a boring match to watch. | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On October 01 2013 19:10 niteReloaded wrote: The only reason I even care about SC2 is because of the people involved. Seing and hearing Tasteless & Artosis, knowing some community veterans are still around makes me 'force myself' to look at SC2 just to have a feeling I'm not abandoning some great people. If there was a new, better RTS around, and the people I appreciate just switched, I wouldn't feel sorry 1% about SC2 because as a game, it's just water under the bridge. Like a decent movie you watched, but nothing 'sticks'. I actually wonder now if more people are actually 'supporting' SC2 because of this... People at Blizzard get a false feedback this way. Certainly the community infrastructure that was imported from BW and to some extent WC3 has artificially inflated SC2. I rarely watch games just for the games anymore, I watch when people I care about are playing. It's almost like the community/pros are driving the game by sheer bloody minded determination more than anything. If SC2 had been released without the BW legacy by an unknown developer, I doubt it would have really registered. Destiny gets hated on a ton, but he was dead on the money about how SC2 is horrific for casuals and beginners, and feels like an anti-social wasteland online. If there had not been a significant existing fanbase it would probably have looked like a ghost-town. The problems of shitty/stale meta, protoss being cobbled together during a lunchbreak, terrible terrible damage etc only become relevant if people give a shit about the game to begin with. Honestly, blizzard does not deserve the community and playerbase they have for this game. The community is more or less carrying SC2. | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:01 Spaylz wrote: China is still playing WC3 a lot. They know where it's at.  They actually love BW too, just not as much as WC3. There is a lot of interest for BW in China though. | ||
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Bacillus
Finland1880 Posts
On October 01 2013 15:36 Rabiator wrote: Explosions and special effects are good if they are RARE ... because if "everything is special" then "nothing is special and special becomes the new normal". Smartcast just makes it too easy to use lots of "special" spells and thus they arent that special anymore. For me part of the problem with SC2 is that they wanted to have everyone wielding devastating armies every game. In practise the game too often ends up being like a bad boxing match where both pugilists have horseshoes in their gloves. There's way too little skill and strategical thinking involved compared to the firepower the players are handed right away. As a result both go swinging clumsy haymakers and whoever gets in the first good punch wins. There's no sense of a satisfying slugfest against another human being. Wins and losses become statistics that take you up a statistical ladder. The out of proportions and easily available firepower also makes it really hard to play the game your way. In older Blizz games I could play the game my way and figure out ways to beat my opponent. Sometimes I could outmicro him, sometimes outstrategize, outposition or turn the game into a total chaos and come ahead in a dozen different ways. I felt I could affect the storyline of the game in loads of interesting ways. In SC2 most of these options are shut down because the firepower overrules everything. Unless I match the enemy build in a proper way, I'm often going to outright die without any actual chance of fighting my opponent. Basically SC2 doesn't let me play my bad, unpredictable, undisciplined and often chaotic games. It tries to make me a good, strictly organized, disciplined player way too early. I don't enjoy perfecting stuff and building up a foolproof plan to victory, not at least on its own. I want to play my messy, deeply flawed games where both the players constantly trade blows and feel like they could do a dozen things better next game and each and every one of those could make a difference. By casualizing the game Blizzard made it almost impossible for me to have fun playing it casually. | ||
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monomo
Germany150 Posts
On October 01 2013 16:01 BigFan wrote: so how is it you are debating about BW when you just admitted that you haven't watched much BW to even see said mechanics? It's like me saying that I haven't seen a certain mechanic happen in SCII even though I haven't watched much recently lol. Either way, marines vs. lurkers is quite a dynamic battle. If you haven't seen this, then I'm afraid you haven't watched any BW at all XD Most TvZs have the terran split his marines and Boxer was known for his 3 marines vs lurker micro where he reacts fast enough when the lurker attacks and moves the marine it targets out of the way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZNdaEM9SfI It's so beautiful. By the way, there were 2 lurkers there(above and below) and he killed both without losing a single marine! Also keep in mind this was back in like 2003 or around that time, as in way back then so you can only imagine how much better player are against lurkers lol. As for bio against tanks, well, it's nuts to go bio against a mech player. Tank can splash from half a screen away so you would never be able to approach them unless you used drops(never tried to my knowledge). Flash actually 3 bunker contained Horang2 in a game. It was 3 bunkers full of marines+tanks and he actually managed to survive despite Horang2's spectacular reaver micro and constantly pressure to break out. He eventually win the game but not before hanging on like a madman lol. Only Flash is capable of such feats imo(maybe Fantasy too). For bio against hts, don't see it much either but here's a perfect example: + Show Spoiler + KTViolet against Hiya(PvT). Hiya went up against hts(storm) and won in the end. Mostly bio with the goliaths here and there(and several tanks at the beginning). Storm dodging is possible, it's just hard to do, that's all. BoxeR vs Ryung had the dropping onto tanks (Code A sometime 2011!) And of course, the classic Taeja vs Innovation at wcs season 2 finals had everything dropping onto everything The dropping bio onto tank thing is pretty apm intensive, you don't see everyone do it, but polt, taeja and boxer in his prime has been doing it quite a few | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On October 01 2013 15:41 painkilla wrote: I wonder how much SC2 these SC2 haters really watch. The recent code S games (with jjakji, Bogus, Flash, Maru) are very very good. Just now we have Life vs Leenock with constant battle/harassment all over the map, ending up with a very good engagement from Leenock. Yet they keep repeating the same thing over and over "200/200 battle ending in a few seconds". SC2 has been much better to watch than it had in WoL. So if something is making it less popular, it isn't the quality of games. The PvZ MU is still kinda bad but it is ok to have 1 or 2 bad MUs. Just wanted to add: It also depends on what sc2 you watch. If you follow the foreign scene for example, you will get the impression that terran is severely underpowered simply because how the foreign terrans fare against the foreign zerg and protoss. | ||
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
On October 01 2013 15:41 painkilla wrote: The answer: none. It isn't news at this point that they have no actual idea how the game is played at the top level.I wonder how much SC2 these SC2 haters really watch. The recent code S games (with jjakji, Bogus, Flash, Maru) are very very good. Just now we have Life vs Leenock with constant battle/harassment all over the map, ending up with a very good engagement from Leenock. Yet they keep repeating the same thing over and over "200/200 battle ending in a few seconds". SC2 has been much better to watch than it had in WoL. So if something is making it less popular, it isn't the quality of games. The PvZ MU is still kinda bad but it is ok to have 1 or 2 bad MUs. Remember this rule of thumb: When it's difficult and APM-intensive to do something properly in BW, it's celebrated. When it's difficult and APM-intensive to do something properly in SC2, it's bad design. | ||
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ETisME
12276 Posts
On October 01 2013 20:49 RampancyTW wrote: The answer: none. It isn't news at this point that they have no actual idea how the game is played at the top level. Remember this rule of thumb: When it's difficult and APM-intensive to do something properly in BW, it's celebrated. When it's difficult and APM-intensive to do something properly in SC2, it's bad design. this brings a question, are those difficult and apm-intensive action enjoyable for spectator to watch? Does it need to be difficult and apm-intensive to be enjoyable and is a high level move? LoL for example, isn't difficult to understand and know what's going on with the engagements. something like this: What about bw for example, ask some one without much experience, are they going to be impressed at someone moving 200 maxed supply army around? | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
On October 01 2013 21:15 ETisME wrote: this brings a question, are those difficult and apm-intensive action enjoyable for spectator to enjoy? Does it need to be difficult and apm-intensive to be enjoyable and is a high level move? Enjoyable is a wrong measure here, you are not going to measure it with something that does not depend on opinion. I, for one, find general BW bug-abusing micro techniques boring to watch, since it is rather repetitive. Do i find SC2's micro enjoyable? Uhm, not really, they are looking cool, but about as boring to watch as BW micro. So no, you are not going to make it enjoyable to watch. Uh, noticed you mentioned word impressive. Well, everything i can't do is impressive for me. For one, i cannot split marines and macro in the same time in SC2 (and you could not physically dodge lurker shots and macro in the same time in BW anyways). So, when i see this happening in SC2 it is impressive for me. When i see someone macroing it up behind muta micro, i am impressed. But is it enjoyable to watch? Uhm, no. So yes, impressive!=enjoyable. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
On October 01 2013 19:37 Bacillus wrote: For me part of the problem with SC2 is that they wanted to have everyone wielding devastating armies every game. In practise the game too often ends up being like a bad boxing match where both pugilists have horseshoes in their gloves. There's way too little skill and strategical thinking involved compared to the firepower the players are handed right away. As a result both go swinging clumsy haymakers and whoever gets in the first good punch wins. There's no sense of a satisfying slugfest against another human being. Wins and losses become statistics that take you up a statistical ladder. The out of proportions and easily available firepower also makes it really hard to play the game your way. In older Blizz games I could play the game my way and figure out ways to beat my opponent. Sometimes I could outmicro him, sometimes outstrategize, outposition or turn the game into a total chaos and come ahead in a dozen different ways. I felt I could affect the storyline of the game in loads of interesting ways. In SC2 most of these options are shut down because the firepower overrules everything. Unless I match the enemy build in a proper way, I'm often going to outright die without any actual chance of fighting my opponent. Basically SC2 doesn't let me play my bad, unpredictable, undisciplined and often chaotic games. It tries to make me a good, strictly organized, disciplined player way too early. I don't enjoy perfecting stuff and building up a foolproof plan to victory, not at least on its own. I want to play my messy, deeply flawed games where both the players constantly trade blows and feel like they could do a dozen things better next game and each and every one of those could make a difference. By casualizing the game Blizzard made it almost impossible for me to have fun playing it casually. It's also because Blizzard wants to use 'iconic moments' for leverage. For instance, they probably decided that everyone should be able to experience using mass carriers in a game or swarming with mass zerglings and so on. It's strongly noticeable in the single player, but to some extent also in the multiplayer. They want you to play the game a certain way so they can exploit their legacy and the set-up moments they have created based on it. On October 01 2013 18:29 papalion wrote: I heard BW made gold rain from the sky, heal the sick, make world peace and can run over water. I also heard Blizzard made SC2 just to destroy it. Seriously: I liked BW back in the days. I can tell you what the real problem is: The problem is you, the never content, shitstorm addicted community. The elitist "a different game is better than this" people. Pathological nostalgics that think they contribute to the SC2 community by praising BW, constantly whining over something they do not understand from a developer's or marketing perspective. I have witnessed exactly the same with a different game, Heroes of Newerth. People praised Dota2 over HoN even before anyone has seen Dota2. The HoN forum was -and is- full of constant whining about the game and that it was dying. Say what, it's still alive! Concerning the BW players that are retiring: They played a game for years on the highest level. Switching to a different game, even to the successor, on pro level must be harder than anything. I can totally understand that people like Bisu, who were luminarys in BW, decide to retire from SC2, where they are struggling. There is one thing I do not understand: BW still exists. You can play it. You can watch it. You don't have to mourn about SC2. You can go into to the BW section and tell anyone there BW is the greatest game ever made. Heck, I never would dare to go into a LoL forum, constantly whine about it and tell the players how elitist I am because I like Dota and HoN. And I really do hate LoL. And I mean really hate, like wanting to go Riot and make a big poop on their keyboards. It reminds me of World of Warcraft in 2008, the forums were just a massive whinefest with memes such as Waiting on Warhammer and everyone was hoping for a game that could replace WoW. Except that it was just a vocal minority and the playerbase continued to grow. Warhammer is shutting down their servers later this year by the way. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
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