EPTWhat can Blizzard Learn from MOBA Balancing/Design - Page 2
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oxxo
988 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
It is also better designed and supported than every other RTS in the last 10 years. I know, I played all of them and they were all left is some state of imbalance and garbage. | ||
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Kishin2
United States7534 Posts
Honestly, if Blizzard would allow the use of a community balanced custom map of starcraft 2 for competitive play, everything could work out. Won't ever happen though, because Blizzard. It's not what can Blizzard learn, it's will they ever. | ||
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FLeK0
86 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 06 2013 23:45 FLeK0 wrote: They released only two real patches since the expansion release in march, with a changelog as long as DotA 2 gets done in a few weeks time. Basically there is no ongoing support for this game, they are probably in a hurry to get the next expansion out asap before the community completely fades away. That is 100% incorrect. Balance is not changed weekly in Dota 2. Balance patches are few and far between. The patches weekly are updates to the store and other bug fixes. They also break the fucking game every week, normally in the middle of match making. | ||
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myRZeth
Germany1047 Posts
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
The "beta" cycles for these games were really long and thus open for reworking the entire game if necessary. I think that's how esports games in the future will be designed, balanced and tested. With Blizzard 95% of the design is set in stone by the time the game reaches beta. Beta is basically only there for balance purposes and for weeding out one or two unpopular unit concepts. TL;DR: Blizzard would do well in not assuming they sit on supreme knowledge of what their audience wants. | ||
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
On September 06 2013 23:55 LaLuSh wrote: Only thing I think they can learn from aRTS-genre is that succesful esports games grow organically. MOBA's/aRTS's aren't just iteratively balanced, they are also iteratively designed through gauging gameplay and community response. The "beta" cycles for these games were really long and thus open for reworking the entire game if necessary. I think that's how esports games in the future will be designed, balanced and tested. With Blizzard 95% of the design is set in stone by the time the game reaches beta. Beta is basically only there for balance purposes and for weeding out one or two unpopular unit concepts. TL;DR: Blizzard would do well in not assuming they sit on supreme knowledge of what their audience wants. best example of this is Blackberry hehe. | ||
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Kishin2
United States7534 Posts
On September 06 2013 23:53 myRZeth wrote: Great post, but Blizzard doesn t care so i think you shouldn t waste any effort, as sad as it is :/ Yep. Every time something like this comes up people get passionate and excited at the possibility of something changing. I think by now we all know that it's just not going to happen. Starcraft 2 will never have LAN. Blizzard don't listen. | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On September 06 2013 22:42 NeThZOR wrote: Don't make expansions, just add buffs to underused or underpowered units and buildings (yes, think spore crawler buff) and add the content on a streamlined basis. Valve never catches us offguard by adding a ton of heroes (equate this to an expansion) and buffs/nerfs simultaneously. Instead, they add them over time and see how the changes affect the meta. Actually, most of the time, whenever there is a balance patch (which comes in DotA with Dota2 following) not many heroes are left untouched by icefrog. The changes that are made vary on impact but some of them can really kill a hero or make another good in one/few patches (see how lycan, the most banned hero, died after his wolves became chihuahuas). | ||
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Eventine
United States307 Posts
On September 07 2013 00:01 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: best example of this is Blackberry hehe. Blackberry could easily be the innovator's dilemma. Assuming your audience knows what they want can give you new coke. | ||
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Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
in a nutshell DotA balance design is: "well that seems pretty imba, but so's this", resulting in major overhauls once every 6 or so months and mostly bugfixes and minor changes in between. and LoL balance design is: "well players aren't playing the game we want to see so lets change things", resulting in monthly moderate patches that often completely overhaul individual champions or items Blizzard's WoL balancing is actually quite similar to LoL balancing in the way that it reacted relatively quickly and reflexively to community opinions and changed individual things, which doesn't work out so well given blizzard's community structure and the inherent asymmetry in Starcraft. The biggest difference between Sc2 and Dota/LoL in terms of balancing is that balance in those games are shared between all players as opposed to sc2, in which balance changes are much harder to come by since they do not affect all players in the same manner. Because tweaking a unit has significant consequences in 3 matchups without a self regulating system of ban/picks to act as a buffer to overly disruptive changes in the metagame, iterative, individual changes are simply bad for sc2 due to its consequences on the game as a whole. | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
On September 06 2013 23:37 oxxo wrote: DotA/LoL balancing methods 'work' because not every champion/hero is used in every game. They are both incredibly poorly balanced with heroes becoming completely OP or useless overnight. Yep, exactly. LoL has 100+ champs, but the meta revolves around like 15 of them. Which 15 that is just changes every few weeks. | ||
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thezanursic
5497 Posts
BW - TvZ MM WoL - TvZ MMM HoTs - TvZ MMMM The problem | ||
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Lokian
United States699 Posts
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DinosaurPoop
687 Posts
On September 07 2013 00:12 thezanursic wrote: I'll try to explain the problem BW - TvZ MM WoL - TvZ MMM HoTs - TvZ MMMM The problem LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL I can't believe noone has thought of posting this before. give this guy a fucking award. | ||
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czaku
Poland429 Posts
On September 06 2013 23:45 FLeK0 wrote: They released only two real patches since the expansion release in march, with a changelog as long as DotA 2 gets done in a few weeks time. Basically there is no ongoing support for this game, they are probably in a hurry to get the next expansion out asap before the community completely fades away. Imagine situation like this. One week you have OP BL-INF. Then, in spirit of your balance patches, we nerf bl-inf or buff something else. And so on. Zero metagame development and RTS thinking. It is strategy game. You need to work things out. Give the game time. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 07 2013 00:17 czaku wrote: Imagine situation like this. One week you have OP BL-INF. Then, in spirit of your balance patches, we nerf bl-inf or buff something else. And so on. Zero metagame development and RTS thinking. It is strategy game. You need to work things out. Give the game time. He is also wrong, Balance patches come every 6 months or more. Not every week. The weekly patches are for store updates and sometimes really minor balance changes. | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
On September 07 2013 00:16 DinosaurPoop wrote: LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL I can't believe noone has thought of posting this before. give this guy a fucking award. Well, at least we know the first letter of the new Terran unit in LotV. The MellBat, of course. | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
It would be cool if after each WCS they did major patches, added abilities/removed abilities, buffed and nerfed certain units. Then gave everyone 2 weeks to practice with the changes and the new season starts up. That is what makes the game so fun to watch after the initial WoL release and HotS. The uncertainty. Ultimately you keep the core of each race the same but it would be a change. Instead of trying to achieve perfect balance instead achieve good balance with variety that then rewards mechanics, decision making, and adaptability. The game these days stagnates very quickly. With replays, team houses, forums, build order programs people find the ideal builds to fast and then don't try anything new. This would be a way to create some new play each season. | ||
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