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Oh wow... I didn't realize both dumb comments were being made by the same person....
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On September 09 2013 12:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 12:46 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 12:29 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 12:14 saddaromma wrote:On September 09 2013 12:06 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 11:47 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 11:35 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 11:19 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument. I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall. The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies..... Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game. Spoke like a person who has never played Dota 2 and has no idea what he is talking about, because you claim that heroes only have 4 abilities. Invoker would like to talk with you, and drop a meat ball on your head. Same with Keeper of the Light. And as I said before, SC2 players have tried to become professional LoL and Dota 2 players, because they thought it was easier. They all failed. -_- But then again no one from their community have succeded as a sc2 pro save for babyknight. and YES MOBAS are easier, and who is it that you refer to? can't be the good ones....(besides already addressed this) Its a lesser game, a custom game from wc3, ofcourse its easier! You sound like a guy thats never played anything but dota. I have played SC2, Dota 2 and League of Legends. Dota 2 is an extremely hard game the punishes you at all time. It is mean, harsh and unforgiving. There are a thousand things to remember and mechanics alone will not save you from defeat. Being a good team mate, knowing who needs support and how to assist them is critical. Heroes like Meepo are as hard to play and controls an entire terran army(meepe is, infact, 5 heroes, each with their own spells). As I said before, you are comparing Golf to Basket ball. You might as well say, "Why is that hard? You just bounce the ball on the ground and then throw it through a hoop. Try hitting a tiny ball 700 yards into a hole the size of a coffee mug and then talk to me about skill." OH wow so you really control 5 units at some point in a moba? that seems really hard! I am not comparing golf to basketball. Making that analogy in itself just proves you dont understand the topic. And underplaying mechanics is just stupid. It just makes no sense at all. And btw "mechanics alone" is infact what seperates allot of people in terms of skill. SKILL a consept you ovliously dont understand. Go play some hard games and try get into the metagame and see how you do. Going back MOBAS then will seem like childs play. The problem with MOBAS is that the only skill you need to know is teamwork. Theres no other way to seperate the bad from the good in the game. DOTA 2 is only unforgiving in comparison to LOL btw. Make one mistake in any other game at a high level and you are probably going to get punished hard for it. Gunz the duel, BW, Street fighter 4, CS 1.6, quake live. There, even gave you a list. GO indulge in those and see if you still think mobas are hard. Its a casual genre hence its broad appeal. You can't just blindfold yourself and think that dota 2 is the height of gamedesign. Its the very same deal with COD. Super casual and easy and alot of people compete in it to. So in short, MOBAS are casual and easy to play. Maybe hard in comparison to an MMO or heavy rain but compared to hard games, its childs play. In moba you should be good at split-second decision making. It comes only with training. Supports with Items have roughly 5-6 abilities and very important ultimates. And every ability should be cast at exact time and place. You can't just say MOBA is easy, ofc its easy for low levels same as sc2. Not anyone from sc2 masters can hit LoL platinum easily. I'm diamond SC2 player but still only maintain Silver in LoL. I'm not even tryhard. Just casual player. Its not worth the time arguing about it. He is just going to claim over and over the Moba are for casual players. There is no point you can make that will change his mind, so don't bother trying. He came here to troll up the thread and he got his wish. Time to stop feeding him. I point out that you are wrong, so ofc i must be trolling. When i first start to argue as to why mobas are not hard compared to better games, you call me a troll. While you keep avoiding the subject itself.... You're calling a teamwork game easy because you think teamwork is not a skill worth praising. That is a personal preference disguising itself as fact, please stop.
The difficulty of the teamwork depends on the difficulty of the task. You cant call a game hard just because its a team game......
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On September 09 2013 12:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Oh wow... I didn't realize both dumb comments were being made by the same person....
Werent you just upset because an allegedly opinion disguised as a fact two seconds ago?? -_-
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On September 09 2013 12:01 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 11:54 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 11:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 11:19 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 09:03 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Clearly this guy has played a lot of Dota 2 and LoL, and knows what is up. After all, those guys at TI3 had no skill at all........ Every game requires skill at pro lvl, but in the end he is kinda right, mobas are casual rts games. Not that its bad, he should say it in a different manner though^^ He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt..... No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument. I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall. The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies..... Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game. Spoke like a person who has never played Dota 2 and has no idea what he is talking about, because you claim that heroes only have 4 abilities. Invoker would like to talk with you, and drop a meat ball on your head. Same with Keeper of the Light. And as I said before, SC2 players have tried to become professional LoL and Dota 2 players, because they thought it was easier. They all failed. Ah cmon, thats no valid point at all. As u said in mobas (cause they are teamgames) teamwork is the most important thing by far. but was is the thing called teamwork? in the end its just experience what to do and when to do it. ofc i dont agree with celadan, that u dont need any skills for mobas at pro niveau, thats kinda absurd, but the actual moves pros do arent hard at all. the hard thing is that everybody has to do theses things in the right timing for his team, and thats only gathered by experience. one simple example: there are 1vs1 tourneys in lol, where u play till first blood / 100 minion kills. the mechanical skillgap is that low, that even gold players can beat pros in that 1vs1 matchup. i would say there is no way in hell that can happen in a rts like starcraft. well in the end it isnt really important, but why deny that mobas are more simple (to execute) rts games? Because it is a stupid argument and its wrong. Actions per minute does not relate to overall skill requirement. A piano player has to press more keys than a trumpet player and a dumber has to use both feet and hands. Which interment takes more skill? Which is harder to play, the violin or the upright bass? There are not discussions we even entertain, because we know how flawed the arguments will be. From your example, piano takes the most skill, some songs require 4+ notes played at once, and not slowly that doesn't mean the others don't have a place in an orchastra, but they ARE easier That's why MOBA's are team games You could theoretically have a best team of triangle players in the world, which would be determined by how in sync they were, how coordinated the song was, and how big the team was
Are you serious? My guess is you neither play Dota nor a musical instrument.
Ignoring the fact that the number of notes in a piece has almost no correlation to its difficulty (and that only the easiest of piano pieces require less than 4 notes to be played at once), it's also a lot easier to play notes on a piano than pretty much any other instrument. A pianist can play 4 or 5 voices at once. You can't do this on a violin or trumpet and it has nothing to do with the skill of the player, it's the differences of the instrument. You could easily make some equally stupid argument like "piano is easier than violin because every key you press on a piano is guaranteed to be in tune, whereas playing the right violin notes can only be obtained through practice and muscle memory".
Regarding Dota vs BW/SC2. I switched from playing/watching BW to playing/watching Dota when BW died. I think many RTS players who have a low opinion of moba games think that Dota is just like SC but you only control one unit. If this were true then yes Dota would be a shit game. The good news is that Dota is an extremely well-made game with many elements that just aren't present in SC. For example, last hitting and denying adds a significant amount of mechanical skill into the game. And as for strategy, Dota is definitely not a watered down version of Starcraft - if anything there's more strategy in Dota because of the large hero pool. It is definitely mechanically easier to play Dota, but skills such as coordination and split-second decision making are also emphasized a lot more than in SC.
As to which game is easier? Well, it's definitely easier to win in Dota pubs than it is to win on ICCup. In dota you can jump in without knowing anything about the game and still get wins and the matchmaking always tries to equalize you at 50%. When you play on iccup you pretty much just lose again and again, even if you're a BW enthusiast, until you get good enough to win because the average skill in iccup was insane (as to be expected from a private server of a 10+ year old game). Nothing was given to you; you only won when you earned it. But if you're playing SC2 you don't have this experience either; it's pretty trivial to get out of the lower leagues on bnet.
It always amuses me when I see people here hating on moba games. I'm pretty sure the SC2 community is the only community stupid enough to dismiss BW as a mindless button-mashing game where people are too busy fighting with the AI to think up of real strategy, and then turn around and hate on Dota/LoL for not having enough mechanical skill. Quite frankly the hypocrisy of the SC2 community never ceases to amaze me.
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How the hell did this topic change to MOBA vs RTS? People have their preferences. You either respect other people's choice or head out the door.
This thread was not meant for controversy, but a discussion whether my idea of reworking is a good one or not... Get with the program.
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On September 09 2013 12:58 Celadan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 12:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 09 2013 12:46 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 12:29 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 12:14 saddaromma wrote:On September 09 2013 12:06 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 11:47 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 11:35 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 11:19 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:
[quote]
I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall.
The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies.....
Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game. Spoke like a person who has never played Dota 2 and has no idea what he is talking about, because you claim that heroes only have 4 abilities. Invoker would like to talk with you, and drop a meat ball on your head. Same with Keeper of the Light. And as I said before, SC2 players have tried to become professional LoL and Dota 2 players, because they thought it was easier. They all failed. -_- But then again no one from their community have succeded as a sc2 pro save for babyknight. and YES MOBAS are easier, and who is it that you refer to? can't be the good ones....(besides already addressed this) Its a lesser game, a custom game from wc3, ofcourse its easier! You sound like a guy thats never played anything but dota. I have played SC2, Dota 2 and League of Legends. Dota 2 is an extremely hard game the punishes you at all time. It is mean, harsh and unforgiving. There are a thousand things to remember and mechanics alone will not save you from defeat. Being a good team mate, knowing who needs support and how to assist them is critical. Heroes like Meepo are as hard to play and controls an entire terran army(meepe is, infact, 5 heroes, each with their own spells). As I said before, you are comparing Golf to Basket ball. You might as well say, "Why is that hard? You just bounce the ball on the ground and then throw it through a hoop. Try hitting a tiny ball 700 yards into a hole the size of a coffee mug and then talk to me about skill." OH wow so you really control 5 units at some point in a moba? that seems really hard! I am not comparing golf to basketball. Making that analogy in itself just proves you dont understand the topic. And underplaying mechanics is just stupid. It just makes no sense at all. And btw "mechanics alone" is infact what seperates allot of people in terms of skill. SKILL a consept you ovliously dont understand. Go play some hard games and try get into the metagame and see how you do. Going back MOBAS then will seem like childs play. The problem with MOBAS is that the only skill you need to know is teamwork. Theres no other way to seperate the bad from the good in the game. DOTA 2 is only unforgiving in comparison to LOL btw. Make one mistake in any other game at a high level and you are probably going to get punished hard for it. Gunz the duel, BW, Street fighter 4, CS 1.6, quake live. There, even gave you a list. GO indulge in those and see if you still think mobas are hard. Its a casual genre hence its broad appeal. You can't just blindfold yourself and think that dota 2 is the height of gamedesign. Its the very same deal with COD. Super casual and easy and alot of people compete in it to. So in short, MOBAS are casual and easy to play. Maybe hard in comparison to an MMO or heavy rain but compared to hard games, its childs play. In moba you should be good at split-second decision making. It comes only with training. Supports with Items have roughly 5-6 abilities and very important ultimates. And every ability should be cast at exact time and place. You can't just say MOBA is easy, ofc its easy for low levels same as sc2. Not anyone from sc2 masters can hit LoL platinum easily. I'm diamond SC2 player but still only maintain Silver in LoL. I'm not even tryhard. Just casual player. Its not worth the time arguing about it. He is just going to claim over and over the Moba are for casual players. There is no point you can make that will change his mind, so don't bother trying. He came here to troll up the thread and he got his wish. Time to stop feeding him. I point out that you are wrong, so ofc i must be trolling. When i first start to argue as to why mobas are not hard compared to better games, you call me a troll. While you keep avoiding the subject itself.... You're calling a teamwork game easy because you think teamwork is not a skill worth praising. That is a personal preference disguising itself as fact, please stop. The difficulty of the teamwork depends on the difficulty of the task. You cant call a game hard just because its a team game......
I get it.
Football is easy.
Tennis is hard.
*facepalm*
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Reworking a unit in starcraft should have the ultimate goal of making it an option, apart from the core units. It shouldn't have a place just to stop something else from happening, rather if what it does makes something else less effective, or to provide an alternative path(not significantly better or worse, just different) then they'll have suceeded.
SC2 is a hard game. Dota2 is a hard game. LoL is a hard game. That should be enough. Arguing that some game takes more skill than another when there are very clearly defined "S class" teams/players is fucking stupid as well. If a game was easy you'd have a hard time distinguishing yourself if you were a really fucking good player. As this doesn't seem to be the case, clearly none of the games are easy.
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On September 09 2013 13:26 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 12:58 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 12:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 09 2013 12:46 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 12:29 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 12:14 saddaromma wrote:On September 09 2013 12:06 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 11:47 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 11:35 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 11:19 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Spoke like a person who has never played Dota 2 and has no idea what he is talking about, because you claim that heroes only have 4 abilities. Invoker would like to talk with you, and drop a meat ball on your head. Same with Keeper of the Light.
And as I said before, SC2 players have tried to become professional LoL and Dota 2 players, because they thought it was easier. They all failed. -_- But then again no one from their community have succeded as a sc2 pro save for babyknight. and YES MOBAS are easier, and who is it that you refer to? can't be the good ones....(besides already addressed this) Its a lesser game, a custom game from wc3, ofcourse its easier! You sound like a guy thats never played anything but dota. I have played SC2, Dota 2 and League of Legends. Dota 2 is an extremely hard game the punishes you at all time. It is mean, harsh and unforgiving. There are a thousand things to remember and mechanics alone will not save you from defeat. Being a good team mate, knowing who needs support and how to assist them is critical. Heroes like Meepo are as hard to play and controls an entire terran army(meepe is, infact, 5 heroes, each with their own spells). As I said before, you are comparing Golf to Basket ball. You might as well say, "Why is that hard? You just bounce the ball on the ground and then throw it through a hoop. Try hitting a tiny ball 700 yards into a hole the size of a coffee mug and then talk to me about skill." OH wow so you really control 5 units at some point in a moba? that seems really hard! I am not comparing golf to basketball. Making that analogy in itself just proves you dont understand the topic. And underplaying mechanics is just stupid. It just makes no sense at all. And btw "mechanics alone" is infact what seperates allot of people in terms of skill. SKILL a consept you ovliously dont understand. Go play some hard games and try get into the metagame and see how you do. Going back MOBAS then will seem like childs play. The problem with MOBAS is that the only skill you need to know is teamwork. Theres no other way to seperate the bad from the good in the game. DOTA 2 is only unforgiving in comparison to LOL btw. Make one mistake in any other game at a high level and you are probably going to get punished hard for it. Gunz the duel, BW, Street fighter 4, CS 1.6, quake live. There, even gave you a list. GO indulge in those and see if you still think mobas are hard. Its a casual genre hence its broad appeal. You can't just blindfold yourself and think that dota 2 is the height of gamedesign. Its the very same deal with COD. Super casual and easy and alot of people compete in it to. So in short, MOBAS are casual and easy to play. Maybe hard in comparison to an MMO or heavy rain but compared to hard games, its childs play. In moba you should be good at split-second decision making. It comes only with training. Supports with Items have roughly 5-6 abilities and very important ultimates. And every ability should be cast at exact time and place. You can't just say MOBA is easy, ofc its easy for low levels same as sc2. Not anyone from sc2 masters can hit LoL platinum easily. I'm diamond SC2 player but still only maintain Silver in LoL. I'm not even tryhard. Just casual player. Its not worth the time arguing about it. He is just going to claim over and over the Moba are for casual players. There is no point you can make that will change his mind, so don't bother trying. He came here to troll up the thread and he got his wish. Time to stop feeding him. I point out that you are wrong, so ofc i must be trolling. When i first start to argue as to why mobas are not hard compared to better games, you call me a troll. While you keep avoiding the subject itself.... You're calling a teamwork game easy because you think teamwork is not a skill worth praising. That is a personal preference disguising itself as fact, please stop. The difficulty of the teamwork depends on the difficulty of the task. You cant call a game hard just because its a team game...... I get it. Football is easy. Tennis is hard. *facepalm*
I'd wager that the easier a game is, the larger teams need to be to make it competitive.
The need for skillful teamwork replaces the difference in required mechanical ability
(But that doesn't explain basketball)
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The answer to this thread should be nothing. How can we even compare?
First I will say understanding design is an ability within itself. Some people simply can't grasp balance better than others. It's what I came to understand when I was competitive in the Fighting game community.
Here is the thing. I will use Fighting games as an example. The more diversity you want from each tool,(unit/champ/character) the more difficult it becomes to balance.
Fighting games like Moba games have large roster of characters, around 30+. Now some fighters like Street fighter or other 2d fighters usually have champs with very small movesets. Lets say around 10 unique moves. LoL has 5 moves QWER. And you can combo those. Easy to balance because the problems are easily visible.
Some fighters like Tekken have a 40+ roster with characters having a tool set of 50+ moves. Much more difficult to balance. But the current Tekken, Tekken Tag 2 is a balanced game. Because these games about six or seven in the series build on foundation of the previous games.
Most important each fighter has core moves that are essential to the principle of the fighting system. Launchers, good lows, fast jabs or good punishers, throws etc. Now these might be unique but they virtually perform the same thing for each character. And in Tekken unlike Street fighter, each character has the same health and defense abilities.
MOBAs rely on farm, kills and items. So even if one champ is better than another on level 1, if the other champ is fed that advantage is negligible. So the games have self balancing mechanics.
SC2's biggest issue is that the core foundation of the game is weak. Unit clumping is a nightmare. It shits on zerg as a race. And favors ranged units. It's the reason tanks were nerfed, storm, hellions, hellibats, etc. Warpgates core to the protoss race, are another nightmare, everything that's wrong with protoss starts there. All protoss patches always relate back to having warpgates in the game. The way the races mine is Mules=/= chrono boosting probes=/=larva inject. In many ways changing this was a direct nerf to worker harassment. The value of a scv isn't the same as a probe.
Terran off the gate were the least fundamentally changed race, and they benefited the most from it. So it wasn't so much that terran was too strong as much as the other races were too weak. And so IMO until the fundamental problems are fixed, the game will have balance issues for awhile. Small little touches on units like MOBAs do won't cut it. It won't fix the problems, just shut up people for awhile until something else surfaces.
Balancing requires that you know what actual problems are so that you can tackle them straight up. Blizzard doesn't seem to know what the problems are.
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On September 09 2013 13:46 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 13:26 saddaromma wrote:On September 09 2013 12:58 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 12:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 09 2013 12:46 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 12:29 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 12:14 saddaromma wrote:On September 09 2013 12:06 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 11:47 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 11:35 Celadan wrote:
[quote]
-_- But then again no one from their community have succeded as a sc2 pro save for babyknight.
and YES MOBAS are easier, and who is it that you refer to? can't be the good ones....(besides already addressed this)
Its a lesser game, a custom game from wc3, ofcourse its easier!
You sound like a guy thats never played anything but dota. I have played SC2, Dota 2 and League of Legends. Dota 2 is an extremely hard game the punishes you at all time. It is mean, harsh and unforgiving. There are a thousand things to remember and mechanics alone will not save you from defeat. Being a good team mate, knowing who needs support and how to assist them is critical. Heroes like Meepo are as hard to play and controls an entire terran army(meepe is, infact, 5 heroes, each with their own spells). As I said before, you are comparing Golf to Basket ball. You might as well say, "Why is that hard? You just bounce the ball on the ground and then throw it through a hoop. Try hitting a tiny ball 700 yards into a hole the size of a coffee mug and then talk to me about skill." OH wow so you really control 5 units at some point in a moba? that seems really hard! I am not comparing golf to basketball. Making that analogy in itself just proves you dont understand the topic. And underplaying mechanics is just stupid. It just makes no sense at all. And btw "mechanics alone" is infact what seperates allot of people in terms of skill. SKILL a consept you ovliously dont understand. Go play some hard games and try get into the metagame and see how you do. Going back MOBAS then will seem like childs play. The problem with MOBAS is that the only skill you need to know is teamwork. Theres no other way to seperate the bad from the good in the game. DOTA 2 is only unforgiving in comparison to LOL btw. Make one mistake in any other game at a high level and you are probably going to get punished hard for it. Gunz the duel, BW, Street fighter 4, CS 1.6, quake live. There, even gave you a list. GO indulge in those and see if you still think mobas are hard. Its a casual genre hence its broad appeal. You can't just blindfold yourself and think that dota 2 is the height of gamedesign. Its the very same deal with COD. Super casual and easy and alot of people compete in it to. So in short, MOBAS are casual and easy to play. Maybe hard in comparison to an MMO or heavy rain but compared to hard games, its childs play. In moba you should be good at split-second decision making. It comes only with training. Supports with Items have roughly 5-6 abilities and very important ultimates. And every ability should be cast at exact time and place. You can't just say MOBA is easy, ofc its easy for low levels same as sc2. Not anyone from sc2 masters can hit LoL platinum easily. I'm diamond SC2 player but still only maintain Silver in LoL. I'm not even tryhard. Just casual player. Its not worth the time arguing about it. He is just going to claim over and over the Moba are for casual players. There is no point you can make that will change his mind, so don't bother trying. He came here to troll up the thread and he got his wish. Time to stop feeding him. I point out that you are wrong, so ofc i must be trolling. When i first start to argue as to why mobas are not hard compared to better games, you call me a troll. While you keep avoiding the subject itself.... You're calling a teamwork game easy because you think teamwork is not a skill worth praising. That is a personal preference disguising itself as fact, please stop. The difficulty of the teamwork depends on the difficulty of the task. You cant call a game hard just because its a team game...... I get it. Football is easy. Tennis is hard. *facepalm* I'd wager that the easier a game is, the larger teams need to be to make it competitive. The need for skillful teamwork replaces the difference in required mechanical ability (But that doesn't explain basketball)
Does that mean darts is more mechanically taxing than soccer?
Or
Does that mean bobsledding is more mechanically taxing than marathon running?
Or
Are you just talking out of your ass?
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I have a good sport comparison, dota is like softball and sc2 is like baseball both can be very competitive and are hard to master but its easier to begin with softball if you want these type of games 
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Northern Ireland26510 Posts
They don't have to rework the units particularly, I don't think that approach is needed at all and we can't look to MOBAs for that.
1. The UI of DOTA especially seems to be sick, with a lot of interesting things such as live observing and all, which would be potentially great in SC2.
2. Most of the things that contribute to 'fatigue' with SC2 aren't due to a monotonous metagame, but imo down to more key design mechanics. 'Terrible, terrible damage' I'm talking about you. 3 base saturation being optimal I'm also talking about you.
Without at the very least CONSIDERING altering some of those key design aspects, Blizz is operating with a pretty restrictive straightjacket on when it comes to enlivening the experience, at least to me personally.
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On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 09:03 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 08:57 Celadan wrote:
Mobas are in essence jsut watered down RTS. The game design of a moba is utter shit. So taking ideas from them will just result in an army of newb friendly games that arent competitive at all. Although the LoL and dota2 community is really good at pretending their games require skill though. Clearly this guy has played a lot of Dota 2 and LoL, and knows what is up. After all, those guys at TI3 had no skill at all........ Every game requires skill at pro lvl, but in the end he is kinda right, mobas are casual rts games. Not that its bad, he should say it in a different manner though^^ He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt..... No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument. I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall. The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies..... Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game.
on the surface i agree. MOBAs look like they should be easier to master than SC2, CS or Q3. but after diving a little bit into the depth of dota2, i realized how blatantly wrong my opinion was.
the skill gaps between a good player, an excellent player and a pro gamer are astounding.
obviously you dont know what you talk about 
ps:
which "lack of mobas" do you talk about? LoL came first and had massive fame and following. a year later HoN came and also had a nice following. another year till dota2 was released, into a market that already had two really famous f2p mobas.
duh, yea, huge lack.
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On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 09:03 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 08:57 Celadan wrote:
Mobas are in essence jsut watered down RTS. The game design of a moba is utter shit. So taking ideas from them will just result in an army of newb friendly games that arent competitive at all. Although the LoL and dota2 community is really good at pretending their games require skill though. Clearly this guy has played a lot of Dota 2 and LoL, and knows what is up. After all, those guys at TI3 had no skill at all........ Every game requires skill at pro lvl, but in the end he is kinda right, mobas are casual rts games. Not that its bad, he should say it in a different manner though^^ He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt..... No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument. I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall. The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies..... Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game.
Chess has less apm then lol and is considered a sport. There are a lot of strategies in lol with different outcome and in teamfights you have to react very fast.
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On September 09 2013 22:46 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 09:03 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 08:57 Celadan wrote:
Mobas are in essence jsut watered down RTS. The game design of a moba is utter shit. So taking ideas from them will just result in an army of newb friendly games that arent competitive at all. Although the LoL and dota2 community is really good at pretending their games require skill though. Clearly this guy has played a lot of Dota 2 and LoL, and knows what is up. After all, those guys at TI3 had no skill at all........ Every game requires skill at pro lvl, but in the end he is kinda right, mobas are casual rts games. Not that its bad, he should say it in a different manner though^^ He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt..... No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument. I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall. The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies..... Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game. on the surface i agree. MOBAs look like they should be easier to master than SC2, CS or Q3. but after diving a little bit into the depth of dota2, i realized how blatantly wrong my opinion was. the skill gaps between a good player, an excellent player and a pro gamer are astounding. obviously you dont know what you talk about
This is a key part about Mobas is that the game looks easy until you dive in there any try to recreate what you saw in game. Last hitting alone and keeping up your farm is a skill unto itself and you need to do it while paying attention to everything else. Dota 2 requires knowledge of so many timings, abilities and skills that need to be used in combination, it is overwhelming. All you need to do is play windrunner and try to forcestaff into shackle shot to know how hard it can be to land a solid double stun. And even if you land all of that, you still need to do it at a time your teammates can follow up.
People who just look at the game on the surface and only see powers don't get how much harder the game is, or just don't want to learn about it because its easier to assume the game is easy.
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On September 09 2013 23:00 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 22:46 beg wrote:On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 09:03 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 08:57 Celadan wrote:
Mobas are in essence jsut watered down RTS. The game design of a moba is utter shit. So taking ideas from them will just result in an army of newb friendly games that arent competitive at all. Although the LoL and dota2 community is really good at pretending their games require skill though. Clearly this guy has played a lot of Dota 2 and LoL, and knows what is up. After all, those guys at TI3 had no skill at all........ Every game requires skill at pro lvl, but in the end he is kinda right, mobas are casual rts games. Not that its bad, he should say it in a different manner though^^ He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt..... No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument. I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall. The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies..... Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game. on the surface i agree. MOBAs look like they should be easier to master than SC2, CS or Q3. but after diving a little bit into the depth of dota2, i realized how blatantly wrong my opinion was. the skill gaps between a good player, an excellent player and a pro gamer are astounding. obviously you dont know what you talk about This is a key part about Mobas is that the game looks easy until you dive in there any try to recreate what you saw in game. Last hitting alone and keeping up your farm is a skill unto itself and you need to do it while paying attention to everything else. Dota 2 requires knowledge of so many timings, abilities and skills that need to be used in combination, it is overwhelming. All you need to do is play windrunner and try to forcestaff into shackle shot to know how hard it can be to land a solid double stun. And even if you land all of that, you still need to do it at a time your teammates can follow up. People who just look at the game on the surface and only see powers don't get how much harder the game is, or just don't want to learn about it because its easier to assume the game is easy.
They make the mistake that the solo-play aspect of the game being easy translates to the game overall being easy.
MOBA is easier to jump into, as a casual, than an RTS. Because you have 4 other people around you to help you, you have turrets to retreat to, etc...
But anyone with management experience knows how fucking hard getting 4 people to work together really is.
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On September 09 2013 14:08 KingAce wrote:
The answer to this thread should be nothing. How can we even compare?
First I will say understanding design is an ability within itself. Some people simply can't grasp balance better than others. It's what I came to understand when I was competitive in the Fighting game community.
Here is the thing. I will use Fighting games as an example. The more diversity you want from each tool,(unit/champ/character) the more difficult it becomes to balance.
Fighting games like Moba games have large roster of characters, around 30+. Now some fighters like Street fighter or other 2d fighters usually have champs with very small movesets. Lets say around 10 unique moves. LoL has 5 moves QWER. And you can combo those. Easy to balance because the problems are easily visible.
Some fighters like Tekken have a 40+ roster with characters having a tool set of 50+ moves. Much more difficult to balance. But the current Tekken, Tekken Tag 2 is a balanced game. Because these games about six or seven in the series build on foundation of the previous games.
Most important each fighter has core moves that are essential to the principle of the fighting system. Launchers, good lows, fast jabs or good punishers, throws etc. Now these might be unique but they virtually perform the same thing for each character. And in Tekken unlike Street fighter, each character has the same health and defense abilities.
MOBAs rely on farm, kills and items. So even if one champ is better than another on level 1, if the other champ is fed that advantage is negligible. So the games have self balancing mechanics.
SC2's biggest issue is that the core foundation of the game is weak. Unit clumping is a nightmare. It shits on zerg as a race. And favors ranged units. It's the reason tanks were nerfed, storm, hellions, hellibats, etc. Warpgates core to the protoss race, are another nightmare, everything that's wrong with protoss starts there. All protoss patches always relate back to having warpgates in the game. The way the races mine is Mules=/= chrono boosting probes=/=larva inject. In many ways changing this was a direct nerf to worker harassment. The value of a scv isn't the same as a probe.
Terran off the gate were the least fundamentally changed race, and they benefited the most from it. So it wasn't so much that terran was too strong as much as the other races were too weak. And so IMO until the fundamental problems are fixed, the game will have balance issues for awhile. Small little touches on units like MOBAs do won't cut it. It won't fix the problems, just shut up people for awhile until something else surfaces.
Balancing requires that you know what actual problems are so that you can tackle them straight up. Blizzard doesn't seem to know what the problems are.
Actually, fighting games by design is much much easier to balance. Because you don't really 'snowball' nearly as much in fighting games (the only thing you have is like energy/rage bars). Let's say you take 20% off your opponent, and you both play 'evenly' after that, you will still keep the 20%. If you take 20% econ dmg in RTS or 20% gold lead in MOBA in the early game, it is almost game over. Fighting games don't really have 'resources' like RTS and MOBA.
And yes, MULES give advantage in some situations (worker harrass), but chrono gives upgrade lead and larva inject means easier tech switch and reaction.
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On September 09 2013 23:17 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 23:00 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 22:46 beg wrote:On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 09:03 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 08:57 Celadan wrote:
Mobas are in essence jsut watered down RTS. The game design of a moba is utter shit. So taking ideas from them will just result in an army of newb friendly games that arent competitive at all. Although the LoL and dota2 community is really good at pretending their games require skill though. Clearly this guy has played a lot of Dota 2 and LoL, and knows what is up. After all, those guys at TI3 had no skill at all........ Every game requires skill at pro lvl, but in the end he is kinda right, mobas are casual rts games. Not that its bad, he should say it in a different manner though^^ He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt..... No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument. I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall. The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies..... Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game. on the surface i agree. MOBAs look like they should be easier to master than SC2, CS or Q3. but after diving a little bit into the depth of dota2, i realized how blatantly wrong my opinion was. the skill gaps between a good player, an excellent player and a pro gamer are astounding. obviously you dont know what you talk about This is a key part about Mobas is that the game looks easy until you dive in there any try to recreate what you saw in game. Last hitting alone and keeping up your farm is a skill unto itself and you need to do it while paying attention to everything else. Dota 2 requires knowledge of so many timings, abilities and skills that need to be used in combination, it is overwhelming. All you need to do is play windrunner and try to forcestaff into shackle shot to know how hard it can be to land a solid double stun. And even if you land all of that, you still need to do it at a time your teammates can follow up. People who just look at the game on the surface and only see powers don't get how much harder the game is, or just don't want to learn about it because its easier to assume the game is easy. They make the mistake that the solo-play aspect of the game being easy translates to the game overall being easy. MOBA is easier to jump into, as a casual, than an RTS. Because you have 4 other people around you to help you, you have turrets to retreat to, etc... But anyone with management experience knows how fucking hard getting 4 people to work together really is.
No to mechion that the pros make it look so easy to do. You see Dendi do some clutch Pudge hooks and you think “I could do that”. Then you get into the game and hook creeps all game and totally fuck up. Or hook teammates. Or you try to play Puck and realized he is made of glass and a child's innocence.
There is a reason they have a button that just types “Game is hard” into Team Chat.
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I'd prefer balance gets thrown out the window in favor of fun. My opinion about why starcraft is such a nice game is the game balances itself out given enough options. There is almost always a response to a playstyle if enough thought is put into it. I wish the discussion would be about adding to the game and not changing/reworking current things. Making carriers more viable probably won't increase the popularity of the game. Adding lurkers/defilers/science vessels/scouts(lol) back and making old pros relearn the game would add far more 'excitement'. Fun should take precedence over balance because balance is mythical.
If there is rework that needs to be done, it is to add quirks to every unit. Marines digging trenches for +armor, mutas perfectly stacking like in brood war, reaver like micro, etc. I don't think there are enough units where certain players can absolutely excel at to 'break' a matchup. There is not enough character and style in top pro level players that make games worth watching as much. I hope Blizzard even considers being more radical in their changes for LotV.
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The only fact that the game has been around for like forever and people still are discovering new laning tricks should be testimony of how hard and deep dota really is. This is also because it's an old style game, where bugs are considered features (stacking, all the trick for aggro in lane, from double waving, to aggro-cd harass, to de-aggro from towers, drag-pulls etc..) and design isn't a slave of the designers but is more driven by the players.
This is a stupid discussion btw, i think all old-school designed game are inerently hard because all the various aspect that emerge from the engine are not removed for the sake of "streamlined" or "modern" design but kept unless severely unbalanced, and as such those games can get so incredibly deep and hard to master in all the possible way you can abuse the engine. What is "harder" is entirely a subjective discussion.
What i think the original poster wanted to promote however, was the style in which dota balance heroes: giving them a niche. If units are buffed in particular situations, you may not see them every game, but you'll ensure that in some games you will see them because they're actually better than other units in particular situations. How to do this in SC i dunno and i think it's inherently harder, but i think it's possible.
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EPT
