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On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 09:03 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 08:57 Celadan wrote:
Mobas are in essence jsut watered down RTS. The game design of a moba is utter shit. So taking ideas from them will just result in an army of newb friendly games that arent competitive at all. Although the LoL and dota2 community is really good at pretending their games require skill though. Clearly this guy has played a lot of Dota 2 and LoL, and knows what is up. After all, those guys at TI3 had no skill at all........ Every game requires skill at pro lvl, but in the end he is kinda right, mobas are casual rts games. Not that its bad, he should say it in a different manner though^^ He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt.....
There is a difference between hurting something and criticizing something. Verbal assault does not help the second party while criticism can provide helpful feedback. I actually have displayed a lot of criticism with SC2, but I never get warned or banned.
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On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 09:03 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 08:57 Celadan wrote:
Mobas are in essence jsut watered down RTS. The game design of a moba is utter shit. So taking ideas from them will just result in an army of newb friendly games that arent competitive at all. Although the LoL and dota2 community is really good at pretending their games require skill though. Clearly this guy has played a lot of Dota 2 and LoL, and knows what is up. After all, those guys at TI3 had no skill at all........ Every game requires skill at pro lvl, but in the end he is kinda right, mobas are casual rts games. Not that its bad, he should say it in a different manner though^^ He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt.....
No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument.
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On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 09:03 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 08:57 Celadan wrote:
Mobas are in essence jsut watered down RTS. The game design of a moba is utter shit. So taking ideas from them will just result in an army of newb friendly games that arent competitive at all. Although the LoL and dota2 community is really good at pretending their games require skill though. Clearly this guy has played a lot of Dota 2 and LoL, and knows what is up. After all, those guys at TI3 had no skill at all........ Every game requires skill at pro lvl, but in the end he is kinda right, mobas are casual rts games. Not that its bad, he should say it in a different manner though^^ He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt..... No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument.
I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall.
The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies.....
Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game.
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On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 09:03 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 08:57 Celadan wrote:
Mobas are in essence jsut watered down RTS. The game design of a moba is utter shit. So taking ideas from them will just result in an army of newb friendly games that arent competitive at all. Although the LoL and dota2 community is really good at pretending their games require skill though. Clearly this guy has played a lot of Dota 2 and LoL, and knows what is up. After all, those guys at TI3 had no skill at all........ Every game requires skill at pro lvl, but in the end he is kinda right, mobas are casual rts games. Not that its bad, he should say it in a different manner though^^ He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt..... No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument. I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall. The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies..... Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game.
Spoke like a person who has never played Dota 2 and has no idea what he is talking about, because you claim that heroes only have 4 abilities. Invoker would like to talk with you, and drop a meat ball on your head. Same with Keeper of the Light.
And as I said before, SC2 players have tried to become professional LoL and Dota 2 players, because they thought it was easier. They all failed.
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On September 09 2013 11:19 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 09:03 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 08:57 Celadan wrote:
Mobas are in essence jsut watered down RTS. The game design of a moba is utter shit. So taking ideas from them will just result in an army of newb friendly games that arent competitive at all. Although the LoL and dota2 community is really good at pretending their games require skill though. Clearly this guy has played a lot of Dota 2 and LoL, and knows what is up. After all, those guys at TI3 had no skill at all........ Every game requires skill at pro lvl, but in the end he is kinda right, mobas are casual rts games. Not that its bad, he should say it in a different manner though^^ He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt..... No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument. I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall. The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies..... Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game. Spoke like a person who has never played Dota 2 and has no idea what he is talking about, because you claim that heroes only have 4 abilities. Invoker would like to talk with you, and drop a meat ball on your head. Same with Keeper of the Light. And as I said before, SC2 players have tried to become professional LoL and Dota 2 players, because they thought it was easier. They all failed.
-_- But then again no one from their community have succeded as a sc2 pro save for babyknight.
and YES MOBAS are easier, and who is it that you refer to? can't be the good ones....(besides already addressed this)
Its a lesser game, a custom game from wc3, ofcourse its easier!
You sound like a guy thats never played anything but dota.
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On September 09 2013 11:19 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 09:03 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 08:57 Celadan wrote:
Mobas are in essence jsut watered down RTS. The game design of a moba is utter shit. So taking ideas from them will just result in an army of newb friendly games that arent competitive at all. Although the LoL and dota2 community is really good at pretending their games require skill though. Clearly this guy has played a lot of Dota 2 and LoL, and knows what is up. After all, those guys at TI3 had no skill at all........ Every game requires skill at pro lvl, but in the end he is kinda right, mobas are casual rts games. Not that its bad, he should say it in a different manner though^^ He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt..... No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument. I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall. The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies..... Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game. Spoke like a person who has never played Dota 2 and has no idea what he is talking about, because you claim that heroes only have 4 abilities. Invoker would like to talk with you, and drop a meat ball on your head. Same with Keeper of the Light. And as I said before, SC2 players have tried to become professional LoL and Dota 2 players, because they thought it was easier. They all failed.
Ah cmon, thats no valid point at all. As u said in mobas (cause they are teamgames) teamwork is the most important thing by far. but was is the thing called teamwork? in the end its just experience what to do and when to do it.
ofc i dont agree with celadan, that u dont need any skills for mobas at pro niveau, thats kinda absurd, but the actual moves pros do arent hard at all. the hard thing is that everybody has to do theses things in the right timing for his team, and thats only gathered by experience.
one simple example: there are 1vs1 tourneys in lol, where u play till first blood / 100 minion kills.
the mechanical skillgap is that low, that even gold players can beat pros in that 1vs1 matchup. i would say there is no way in hell that can happen in a rts like starcraft.
well in the end it isnt really important, but why deny that mobas are more simple (to execute) rts games?
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On September 09 2013 11:35 Celadan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 11:19 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 09:03 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 08:57 Celadan wrote:
Mobas are in essence jsut watered down RTS. The game design of a moba is utter shit. So taking ideas from them will just result in an army of newb friendly games that arent competitive at all. Although the LoL and dota2 community is really good at pretending their games require skill though. Clearly this guy has played a lot of Dota 2 and LoL, and knows what is up. After all, those guys at TI3 had no skill at all........ Every game requires skill at pro lvl, but in the end he is kinda right, mobas are casual rts games. Not that its bad, he should say it in a different manner though^^ He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt..... No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument. I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall. The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies..... Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game. Spoke like a person who has never played Dota 2 and has no idea what he is talking about, because you claim that heroes only have 4 abilities. Invoker would like to talk with you, and drop a meat ball on your head. Same with Keeper of the Light. And as I said before, SC2 players have tried to become professional LoL and Dota 2 players, because they thought it was easier. They all failed. -_- But then again no one from their community have succeded as a sc2 pro save for babyknight. and YES MOBAS are easier, and who is it that you refer to? can't be the good ones....(besides already addressed this) Its a lesser game, a custom game from wc3, ofcourse its easier! You sound like a guy thats never played anything but dota.
I have played SC2, Dota 2 and League of Legends. Dota 2 is an extremely hard game the punishes you at all time. It is mean, harsh and unforgiving. There are a thousand things to remember and mechanics alone will not save you from defeat. Being a good team mate, knowing who needs support and how to assist them is critical. Positioning is king and if you are out of position, you die. There is as much to play attention to as in any SC2 game and there are 5 people looking to kill you, not just one. Heroes like Meepo are as hard to play and controls an entire terran army(meepe is, infact, 5 heroes, each with their own spells).
As I said before, you are comparing Golf to Basket ball. You might as well say, "Why is that hard? You just bounce the ball on the ground and then throw it through a hoop. Try hitting a tiny ball 700 yards into a hole the size of a coffee mug and then talk to me about skill."
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Sure, lets completely change units (rework) instead of trying to use small balance patches (which drastically change the game every time)
MOBA's are mechanically MUCH easier, but there's enough depth there to let the better team win.
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On September 09 2013 11:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 11:19 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 09:03 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 08:57 Celadan wrote:
Mobas are in essence jsut watered down RTS. The game design of a moba is utter shit. So taking ideas from them will just result in an army of newb friendly games that arent competitive at all. Although the LoL and dota2 community is really good at pretending their games require skill though. Clearly this guy has played a lot of Dota 2 and LoL, and knows what is up. After all, those guys at TI3 had no skill at all........ Every game requires skill at pro lvl, but in the end he is kinda right, mobas are casual rts games. Not that its bad, he should say it in a different manner though^^ He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt..... No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument. I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall. The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies..... Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game. Spoke like a person who has never played Dota 2 and has no idea what he is talking about, because you claim that heroes only have 4 abilities. Invoker would like to talk with you, and drop a meat ball on your head. Same with Keeper of the Light. And as I said before, SC2 players have tried to become professional LoL and Dota 2 players, because they thought it was easier. They all failed. Ah cmon, thats no valid point at all. As u said in mobas (cause they are teamgames) teamwork is the most important thing by far. but was is the thing called teamwork? in the end its just experience what to do and when to do it. ofc i dont agree with celadan, that u dont need any skills for mobas at pro niveau, thats kinda absurd, but the actual moves pros do arent hard at all. the hard thing is that everybody has to do theses things in the right timing for his team, and thats only gathered by experience. one simple example: there are 1vs1 tourneys in lol, where u play till first blood / 100 minion kills. the mechanical skillgap is that low, that even gold players can beat pros in that 1vs1 matchup. i would say there is no way in hell that can happen in a rts like starcraft. well in the end it isnt really important, but why deny that mobas are more simple (to execute) rts games?
Because it is a stupid argument and its wrong. Actions per minute does not relate to overall skill requirement. A piano player has to press more keys than a trumpet player and a dumber has to use both feet and hands. Which interment takes more skill? Which is harder to play, the violin or the upright bass? There are not discussions we even entertain, because we know how flawed the arguments will be.
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On September 06 2013 23:28 DinosaurPoop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 23:26 czaku wrote:
The truth is, RTS is shading out. Look at the other RTS games. All went dead. It's great game but i think it wouldn't be developed so much if it wasn't named Starcraft. fucking truth right here
Yep. MOBAs are taking over.
The physical skill cap is vastly lower (single unit control), which appeals to a lot of people who want an equal or slightly lesser mental competition with lower physical requirements. Several recent RTSes have nix'd base-building aspects and made all units spawn as reinforcements around a "hero".
Command and Conquer 4 and End of Nations are good examples of the "future" of popular RTSes.
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On September 09 2013 11:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 11:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 11:19 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 09:03 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 08:57 Celadan wrote:
Mobas are in essence jsut watered down RTS. The game design of a moba is utter shit. So taking ideas from them will just result in an army of newb friendly games that arent competitive at all. Although the LoL and dota2 community is really good at pretending their games require skill though. Clearly this guy has played a lot of Dota 2 and LoL, and knows what is up. After all, those guys at TI3 had no skill at all........ Every game requires skill at pro lvl, but in the end he is kinda right, mobas are casual rts games. Not that its bad, he should say it in a different manner though^^ He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt..... No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument. I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall. The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies..... Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game. Spoke like a person who has never played Dota 2 and has no idea what he is talking about, because you claim that heroes only have 4 abilities. Invoker would like to talk with you, and drop a meat ball on your head. Same with Keeper of the Light. And as I said before, SC2 players have tried to become professional LoL and Dota 2 players, because they thought it was easier. They all failed. Ah cmon, thats no valid point at all. As u said in mobas (cause they are teamgames) teamwork is the most important thing by far. but was is the thing called teamwork? in the end its just experience what to do and when to do it. ofc i dont agree with celadan, that u dont need any skills for mobas at pro niveau, thats kinda absurd, but the actual moves pros do arent hard at all. the hard thing is that everybody has to do theses things in the right timing for his team, and thats only gathered by experience. one simple example: there are 1vs1 tourneys in lol, where u play till first blood / 100 minion kills. the mechanical skillgap is that low, that even gold players can beat pros in that 1vs1 matchup. i would say there is no way in hell that can happen in a rts like starcraft. well in the end it isnt really important, but why deny that mobas are more simple (to execute) rts games? Because it is a stupid argument and its wrong. Actions per minute does not relate to overall skill requirement. A piano player has to press more keys than a trumpet player and a dumber has to use both feet and hands. Which interment takes more skill? Which is harder to play, the violin or the upright bass? There are not discussions we even entertain, because we know how flawed the arguments will be.
From your example, piano takes the most skill, some songs require 4+ notes played at once, and not slowly
that doesn't mean the others don't have a place in an orchastra, but they ARE easier
That's why MOBA's are team games
You could theoretically have a best team of triangle players in the world, which would be determined by how in sync they were, how coordinated the song was, and how big the team was
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On September 09 2013 11:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 11:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 11:19 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 09:03 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 08:57 Celadan wrote:
Mobas are in essence jsut watered down RTS. The game design of a moba is utter shit. So taking ideas from them will just result in an army of newb friendly games that arent competitive at all. Although the LoL and dota2 community is really good at pretending their games require skill though. Clearly this guy has played a lot of Dota 2 and LoL, and knows what is up. After all, those guys at TI3 had no skill at all........ Every game requires skill at pro lvl, but in the end he is kinda right, mobas are casual rts games. Not that its bad, he should say it in a different manner though^^ He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt..... No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument. I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall. The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies..... Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game. Spoke like a person who has never played Dota 2 and has no idea what he is talking about, because you claim that heroes only have 4 abilities. Invoker would like to talk with you, and drop a meat ball on your head. Same with Keeper of the Light. And as I said before, SC2 players have tried to become professional LoL and Dota 2 players, because they thought it was easier. They all failed. Ah cmon, thats no valid point at all. As u said in mobas (cause they are teamgames) teamwork is the most important thing by far. but was is the thing called teamwork? in the end its just experience what to do and when to do it. ofc i dont agree with celadan, that u dont need any skills for mobas at pro niveau, thats kinda absurd, but the actual moves pros do arent hard at all. the hard thing is that everybody has to do theses things in the right timing for his team, and thats only gathered by experience. one simple example: there are 1vs1 tourneys in lol, where u play till first blood / 100 minion kills. the mechanical skillgap is that low, that even gold players can beat pros in that 1vs1 matchup. i would say there is no way in hell that can happen in a rts like starcraft. well in the end it isnt really important, but why deny that mobas are more simple (to execute) rts games? Because it is a stupid argument and its wrong. Actions per minute does not relate to overall skill requirement. A piano player has to press more keys than a trumpet player and a dumber has to use both feet and hands. Which interment takes more skill? Which is harder to play, the violin or the upright bass? There are not discussions we even entertain, because we know how flawed the arguments will be.
did i even mention apm? if u say mechanics are "apm" ure completely wrong..
u dont argue about the things i mention, u just do some (flawed) metaphers. u only mention knowledge as skills in dota /mobas. sports is ofc about knowledge too, but the main factor is always how hard it is to execute certain stuff. most of the actions that are required by a single player in a moba to play the game are easier than to play a rts.
i dont talk about the knowledge that only comes with experience, just the difficulty to actually play the game.
maybe there is more depth in mobas than in rts games, but that doesnt mean u need more skill, u just need more time and maybe could actually get better by only WATCHING and theorycrafting.
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On September 09 2013 11:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 11:35 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 11:19 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 09:03 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 08:57 Celadan wrote:
Mobas are in essence jsut watered down RTS. The game design of a moba is utter shit. So taking ideas from them will just result in an army of newb friendly games that arent competitive at all. Although the LoL and dota2 community is really good at pretending their games require skill though. Clearly this guy has played a lot of Dota 2 and LoL, and knows what is up. After all, those guys at TI3 had no skill at all........ Every game requires skill at pro lvl, but in the end he is kinda right, mobas are casual rts games. Not that its bad, he should say it in a different manner though^^ He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt..... No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument. I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall. The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies..... Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game. Spoke like a person who has never played Dota 2 and has no idea what he is talking about, because you claim that heroes only have 4 abilities. Invoker would like to talk with you, and drop a meat ball on your head. Same with Keeper of the Light. And as I said before, SC2 players have tried to become professional LoL and Dota 2 players, because they thought it was easier. They all failed. -_- But then again no one from their community have succeded as a sc2 pro save for babyknight. and YES MOBAS are easier, and who is it that you refer to? can't be the good ones....(besides already addressed this) Its a lesser game, a custom game from wc3, ofcourse its easier! You sound like a guy thats never played anything but dota. I have played SC2, Dota 2 and League of Legends. Dota 2 is an extremely hard game the punishes you at all time. It is mean, harsh and unforgiving. There are a thousand things to remember and mechanics alone will not save you from defeat. Being a good team mate, knowing who needs support and how to assist them is critical. Heroes like Meepo are as hard to play and controls an entire terran army(meepe is, infact, 5 heroes, each with their own spells). As I said before, you are comparing Golf to Basket ball. You might as well say, "Why is that hard? You just bounce the ball on the ground and then throw it through a hoop. Try hitting a tiny ball 700 yards into a hole the size of a coffee mug and then talk to me about skill."
OH wow so you really control 5 units at some point in a moba? that seems really hard!
I am not comparing golf to basketball. Making that analogy in itself just proves you dont understand the topic.
And underplaying mechanics is just stupid. It just makes no sense at all. And btw "mechanics alone" is infact what seperates allot of people in terms of skill. SKILL a consept you ovliously dont understand. Go play some hard games and try get into the metagame and see how you do. Going back MOBAS then will seem like childs play. The problem with MOBAS is that the only skill you need to know is teamwork. Theres no other way to seperate the bad from the good in the game. DOTA 2 is only unforgiving in comparison to LOL btw. Make one mistake in any other game at a high level and you are probably going to get punished hard for it.
Gunz the duel, BW, Street fighter 4, CS 1.6, quake live.
There, even gave you a list. GO indulge in those and see if you still think mobas are hard. Its a casual genre hence its broad appeal. You can't just blindfold yourself and think that dota 2 is the height of gamedesign. Its the very same deal with COD.
Super casual and easy and alot of people compete in it to.
So in short, MOBAS are casual and easy to play. Maybe hard in comparison to an MMO or heavy rain but compared to hard games, its childs play.
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On September 09 2013 12:01 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 11:54 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 11:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 11:19 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 09:03 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Clearly this guy has played a lot of Dota 2 and LoL, and knows what is up. After all, those guys at TI3 had no skill at all........ Every game requires skill at pro lvl, but in the end he is kinda right, mobas are casual rts games. Not that its bad, he should say it in a different manner though^^ He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt..... No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument. I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall. The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies..... Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game. Spoke like a person who has never played Dota 2 and has no idea what he is talking about, because you claim that heroes only have 4 abilities. Invoker would like to talk with you, and drop a meat ball on your head. Same with Keeper of the Light. And as I said before, SC2 players have tried to become professional LoL and Dota 2 players, because they thought it was easier. They all failed. Ah cmon, thats no valid point at all. As u said in mobas (cause they are teamgames) teamwork is the most important thing by far. but was is the thing called teamwork? in the end its just experience what to do and when to do it. ofc i dont agree with celadan, that u dont need any skills for mobas at pro niveau, thats kinda absurd, but the actual moves pros do arent hard at all. the hard thing is that everybody has to do theses things in the right timing for his team, and thats only gathered by experience. one simple example: there are 1vs1 tourneys in lol, where u play till first blood / 100 minion kills. the mechanical skillgap is that low, that even gold players can beat pros in that 1vs1 matchup. i would say there is no way in hell that can happen in a rts like starcraft. well in the end it isnt really important, but why deny that mobas are more simple (to execute) rts games? Because it is a stupid argument and its wrong. Actions per minute does not relate to overall skill requirement. A piano player has to press more keys than a trumpet player and a dumber has to use both feet and hands. Which interment takes more skill? Which is harder to play, the violin or the upright bass? There are not discussions we even entertain, because we know how flawed the arguments will be. From your example, piano takes the most skill, some songs require 4+ notes played at once, and not slowly that doesn't mean the others don't have a place in an orchastra, but they ARE easier That's why MOBA's are team games You could theoretically have a best team of triangle players in the world, which would be determined by how in sync they were, how coordinated the song was, and how big the team was
I am sure there are a bunch of drummers who would disagree. And trumpet players who learned how to breath while playing. I am talking to a drummer right now about the subject and she points out that drumming is more physically exhausting and requires the drummer to keep the beat for the entire band and adjust to them.
Its all subjective. If you say "Dota 2 requires less actions and you need to click less" then I guess they take less skill. But in the same argument, the Dota 2 player could say "In SC2 there is only one person to worry about, I have to worry about 5 and my 4 other team mates." At the end of the day, its a pointless discussion that leads no where. Both games are hard for different reasons and required different skill sets. Trying to prove which requires the most "skill", whatever the fuck that is, is a fools errand.
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On September 09 2013 12:06 Celadan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 11:47 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 11:35 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 11:19 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 09:03 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Clearly this guy has played a lot of Dota 2 and LoL, and knows what is up. After all, those guys at TI3 had no skill at all........ Every game requires skill at pro lvl, but in the end he is kinda right, mobas are casual rts games. Not that its bad, he should say it in a different manner though^^ He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt..... No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument. I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall. The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies..... Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game. Spoke like a person who has never played Dota 2 and has no idea what he is talking about, because you claim that heroes only have 4 abilities. Invoker would like to talk with you, and drop a meat ball on your head. Same with Keeper of the Light. And as I said before, SC2 players have tried to become professional LoL and Dota 2 players, because they thought it was easier. They all failed. -_- But then again no one from their community have succeded as a sc2 pro save for babyknight. and YES MOBAS are easier, and who is it that you refer to? can't be the good ones....(besides already addressed this) Its a lesser game, a custom game from wc3, ofcourse its easier! You sound like a guy thats never played anything but dota. I have played SC2, Dota 2 and League of Legends. Dota 2 is an extremely hard game the punishes you at all time. It is mean, harsh and unforgiving. There are a thousand things to remember and mechanics alone will not save you from defeat. Being a good team mate, knowing who needs support and how to assist them is critical. Heroes like Meepo are as hard to play and controls an entire terran army(meepe is, infact, 5 heroes, each with their own spells). As I said before, you are comparing Golf to Basket ball. You might as well say, "Why is that hard? You just bounce the ball on the ground and then throw it through a hoop. Try hitting a tiny ball 700 yards into a hole the size of a coffee mug and then talk to me about skill." OH wow so you really control 5 units at some point in a moba? that seems really hard! I am not comparing golf to basketball. Making that analogy in itself just proves you dont understand the topic. And underplaying mechanics is just stupid. It just makes no sense at all. And btw "mechanics alone" is infact what seperates allot of people in terms of skill. SKILL a consept you ovliously dont understand. Go play some hard games and try get into the metagame and see how you do. Going back MOBAS then will seem like childs play. The problem with MOBAS is that the only skill you need to know is teamwork. Theres no other way to seperate the bad from the good in the game. DOTA 2 is only unforgiving in comparison to LOL btw. Make one mistake in any other game at a high level and you are probably going to get punished hard for it. Gunz the duel, BW, Street fighter 4, CS 1.6, quake live. There, even gave you a list. GO indulge in those and see if you still think mobas are hard. Its a casual genre hence its broad appeal. You can't just blindfold yourself and think that dota 2 is the height of gamedesign. Its the very same deal with COD. Super casual and easy and alot of people compete in it to. So in short, MOBAS are casual and easy to play. Maybe hard in comparison to an MMO or heavy rain but compared to hard games, its childs play.
In moba you should be good at split-second decision making. It comes only with training. Supports with Items have roughly 5-6 abilities and very important ultimates. And every ability should be cast at exact time and place. You can't just say MOBA is easy, ofc its easy for low levels same as sc2. Not anyone from sc2 masters can hit LoL platinum easily.
I'm diamond SC2 player but still only maintain Silver in LoL. I'm not even tryhard. Just casual player.
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On September 09 2013 12:14 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 12:06 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 11:47 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 11:35 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 11:19 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[quote]
Every game requires skill at pro lvl, but in the end he is kinda right, mobas are casual rts games. Not that its bad, he should say it in a different manner though^^ He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt..... No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument. I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall. The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies..... Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game. Spoke like a person who has never played Dota 2 and has no idea what he is talking about, because you claim that heroes only have 4 abilities. Invoker would like to talk with you, and drop a meat ball on your head. Same with Keeper of the Light. And as I said before, SC2 players have tried to become professional LoL and Dota 2 players, because they thought it was easier. They all failed. -_- But then again no one from their community have succeded as a sc2 pro save for babyknight. and YES MOBAS are easier, and who is it that you refer to? can't be the good ones....(besides already addressed this) Its a lesser game, a custom game from wc3, ofcourse its easier! You sound like a guy thats never played anything but dota. I have played SC2, Dota 2 and League of Legends. Dota 2 is an extremely hard game the punishes you at all time. It is mean, harsh and unforgiving. There are a thousand things to remember and mechanics alone will not save you from defeat. Being a good team mate, knowing who needs support and how to assist them is critical. Heroes like Meepo are as hard to play and controls an entire terran army(meepe is, infact, 5 heroes, each with their own spells). As I said before, you are comparing Golf to Basket ball. You might as well say, "Why is that hard? You just bounce the ball on the ground and then throw it through a hoop. Try hitting a tiny ball 700 yards into a hole the size of a coffee mug and then talk to me about skill." OH wow so you really control 5 units at some point in a moba? that seems really hard! I am not comparing golf to basketball. Making that analogy in itself just proves you dont understand the topic. And underplaying mechanics is just stupid. It just makes no sense at all. And btw "mechanics alone" is infact what seperates allot of people in terms of skill. SKILL a consept you ovliously dont understand. Go play some hard games and try get into the metagame and see how you do. Going back MOBAS then will seem like childs play. The problem with MOBAS is that the only skill you need to know is teamwork. Theres no other way to seperate the bad from the good in the game. DOTA 2 is only unforgiving in comparison to LOL btw. Make one mistake in any other game at a high level and you are probably going to get punished hard for it. Gunz the duel, BW, Street fighter 4, CS 1.6, quake live. There, even gave you a list. GO indulge in those and see if you still think mobas are hard. Its a casual genre hence its broad appeal. You can't just blindfold yourself and think that dota 2 is the height of gamedesign. Its the very same deal with COD. Super casual and easy and alot of people compete in it to. So in short, MOBAS are casual and easy to play. Maybe hard in comparison to an MMO or heavy rain but compared to hard games, its childs play. In moba you should be good at split-second decision making. It comes only with training. Supports with Items have roughly 5-6 abilities and very important ultimates. And every ability should be cast at exact time and place. You can't just say MOBA is easy, ofc its easy for low levels same as sc2. Not anyone from sc2 masters can hit LoL platinum easily. I'm diamond SC2 player but still only maintain Silver in LoL. I'm not even tryhard. Just casual player.
EVERY competetive game have split second descicion making. I wouldnt be so generous to MOBAS though, its the teams reaction that matter not the individual so you need a team that communicates.
And btw dia in sc2 doesnt say much requires 0 practice, So how can you speak for master players? They probably spend time praccing sc2 not LOL so why do you jump to conclusions based on that?
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On September 09 2013 12:14 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 12:06 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 11:47 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 11:35 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 11:19 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[quote]
Every game requires skill at pro lvl, but in the end he is kinda right, mobas are casual rts games. Not that its bad, he should say it in a different manner though^^ He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt..... No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument. I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall. The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies..... Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game. Spoke like a person who has never played Dota 2 and has no idea what he is talking about, because you claim that heroes only have 4 abilities. Invoker would like to talk with you, and drop a meat ball on your head. Same with Keeper of the Light. And as I said before, SC2 players have tried to become professional LoL and Dota 2 players, because they thought it was easier. They all failed. -_- But then again no one from their community have succeded as a sc2 pro save for babyknight. and YES MOBAS are easier, and who is it that you refer to? can't be the good ones....(besides already addressed this) Its a lesser game, a custom game from wc3, ofcourse its easier! You sound like a guy thats never played anything but dota. I have played SC2, Dota 2 and League of Legends. Dota 2 is an extremely hard game the punishes you at all time. It is mean, harsh and unforgiving. There are a thousand things to remember and mechanics alone will not save you from defeat. Being a good team mate, knowing who needs support and how to assist them is critical. Heroes like Meepo are as hard to play and controls an entire terran army(meepe is, infact, 5 heroes, each with their own spells). As I said before, you are comparing Golf to Basket ball. You might as well say, "Why is that hard? You just bounce the ball on the ground and then throw it through a hoop. Try hitting a tiny ball 700 yards into a hole the size of a coffee mug and then talk to me about skill." OH wow so you really control 5 units at some point in a moba? that seems really hard! I am not comparing golf to basketball. Making that analogy in itself just proves you dont understand the topic. And underplaying mechanics is just stupid. It just makes no sense at all. And btw "mechanics alone" is infact what seperates allot of people in terms of skill. SKILL a consept you ovliously dont understand. Go play some hard games and try get into the metagame and see how you do. Going back MOBAS then will seem like childs play. The problem with MOBAS is that the only skill you need to know is teamwork. Theres no other way to seperate the bad from the good in the game. DOTA 2 is only unforgiving in comparison to LOL btw. Make one mistake in any other game at a high level and you are probably going to get punished hard for it. Gunz the duel, BW, Street fighter 4, CS 1.6, quake live. There, even gave you a list. GO indulge in those and see if you still think mobas are hard. Its a casual genre hence its broad appeal. You can't just blindfold yourself and think that dota 2 is the height of gamedesign. Its the very same deal with COD. Super casual and easy and alot of people compete in it to. So in short, MOBAS are casual and easy to play. Maybe hard in comparison to an MMO or heavy rain but compared to hard games, its childs play. In moba you should be good at split-second decision making. It comes only with training. Supports with Items have roughly 5-6 abilities and very important ultimates. And every ability should be cast at exact time and place. You can't just say MOBA is easy, ofc its easy for low levels same as sc2. Not anyone from sc2 masters can hit LoL platinum easily. I'm diamond SC2 player but still only maintain Silver in LoL. I'm not even tryhard. Just casual player.
Its not worth the time arguing about it. He is just going to claim over and over the Moba are for casual players. There is no point you can make that will change his mind, so don't bother trying. He came here to troll up the thread and he got his wish. Time to stop feeding him.
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On September 09 2013 12:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 12:14 saddaromma wrote:On September 09 2013 12:06 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 11:47 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 11:35 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 11:19 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt..... No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument. I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall. The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies..... Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game. Spoke like a person who has never played Dota 2 and has no idea what he is talking about, because you claim that heroes only have 4 abilities. Invoker would like to talk with you, and drop a meat ball on your head. Same with Keeper of the Light. And as I said before, SC2 players have tried to become professional LoL and Dota 2 players, because they thought it was easier. They all failed. -_- But then again no one from their community have succeded as a sc2 pro save for babyknight. and YES MOBAS are easier, and who is it that you refer to? can't be the good ones....(besides already addressed this) Its a lesser game, a custom game from wc3, ofcourse its easier! You sound like a guy thats never played anything but dota. I have played SC2, Dota 2 and League of Legends. Dota 2 is an extremely hard game the punishes you at all time. It is mean, harsh and unforgiving. There are a thousand things to remember and mechanics alone will not save you from defeat. Being a good team mate, knowing who needs support and how to assist them is critical. Heroes like Meepo are as hard to play and controls an entire terran army(meepe is, infact, 5 heroes, each with their own spells). As I said before, you are comparing Golf to Basket ball. You might as well say, "Why is that hard? You just bounce the ball on the ground and then throw it through a hoop. Try hitting a tiny ball 700 yards into a hole the size of a coffee mug and then talk to me about skill." OH wow so you really control 5 units at some point in a moba? that seems really hard! I am not comparing golf to basketball. Making that analogy in itself just proves you dont understand the topic. And underplaying mechanics is just stupid. It just makes no sense at all. And btw "mechanics alone" is infact what seperates allot of people in terms of skill. SKILL a consept you ovliously dont understand. Go play some hard games and try get into the metagame and see how you do. Going back MOBAS then will seem like childs play. The problem with MOBAS is that the only skill you need to know is teamwork. Theres no other way to seperate the bad from the good in the game. DOTA 2 is only unforgiving in comparison to LOL btw. Make one mistake in any other game at a high level and you are probably going to get punished hard for it. Gunz the duel, BW, Street fighter 4, CS 1.6, quake live. There, even gave you a list. GO indulge in those and see if you still think mobas are hard. Its a casual genre hence its broad appeal. You can't just blindfold yourself and think that dota 2 is the height of gamedesign. Its the very same deal with COD. Super casual and easy and alot of people compete in it to. So in short, MOBAS are casual and easy to play. Maybe hard in comparison to an MMO or heavy rain but compared to hard games, its childs play. In moba you should be good at split-second decision making. It comes only with training. Supports with Items have roughly 5-6 abilities and very important ultimates. And every ability should be cast at exact time and place. You can't just say MOBA is easy, ofc its easy for low levels same as sc2. Not anyone from sc2 masters can hit LoL platinum easily. I'm diamond SC2 player but still only maintain Silver in LoL. I'm not even tryhard. Just casual player. Its not worth the time arguing about it. He is just going to claim over and over the Moba are for casual players. There is no point you can make that will change his mind, so don't bother trying. He came here to troll up the thread and he got his wish. Time to stop feeding him.
I point out that you are wrong, so ofc i must be trolling. When i first start to argue as to why mobas are not hard compared to better games, you call me a troll. While you keep avoiding the subject itself....
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On September 09 2013 12:06 Celadan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 11:47 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 11:35 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 11:19 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 09:13 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2013 09:03 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Clearly this guy has played a lot of Dota 2 and LoL, and knows what is up. After all, those guys at TI3 had no skill at all........ Every game requires skill at pro lvl, but in the end he is kinda right, mobas are casual rts games. Not that its bad, he should say it in a different manner though^^ He is 100% wrong. He is comparing golf to basket ball, acting like liking being part of a team isn't a skill. SC2 pros have tried to move over to both LoL and Dota 2 with a 0% success rate. I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt..... No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument. I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall. The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies..... Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game. Spoke like a person who has never played Dota 2 and has no idea what he is talking about, because you claim that heroes only have 4 abilities. Invoker would like to talk with you, and drop a meat ball on your head. Same with Keeper of the Light. And as I said before, SC2 players have tried to become professional LoL and Dota 2 players, because they thought it was easier. They all failed. -_- But then again no one from their community have succeded as a sc2 pro save for babyknight. and YES MOBAS are easier, and who is it that you refer to? can't be the good ones....(besides already addressed this) Its a lesser game, a custom game from wc3, ofcourse its easier! You sound like a guy thats never played anything but dota. I have played SC2, Dota 2 and League of Legends. Dota 2 is an extremely hard game the punishes you at all time. It is mean, harsh and unforgiving. There are a thousand things to remember and mechanics alone will not save you from defeat. Being a good team mate, knowing who needs support and how to assist them is critical. Heroes like Meepo are as hard to play and controls an entire terran army(meepe is, infact, 5 heroes, each with their own spells). As I said before, you are comparing Golf to Basket ball. You might as well say, "Why is that hard? You just bounce the ball on the ground and then throw it through a hoop. Try hitting a tiny ball 700 yards into a hole the size of a coffee mug and then talk to me about skill." OH wow so you really control 5 units at some point in a moba? that seems really hard! I am not comparing golf to basketball. Making that analogy in itself just proves you dont understand the topic. And underplaying mechanics is just stupid. It just makes no sense at all. And btw "mechanics alone" is infact what seperates allot of people in terms of skill. SKILL a consept you ovliously dont understand. Go play some hard games and try get into the metagame and see how you do. Going back MOBAS then will seem like childs play. The problem with MOBAS is that the only skill you need to know is teamwork. Theres no other way to seperate the bad from the good in the game. DOTA 2 is only unforgiving in comparison to LOL btw. Make one mistake in any other game at a high level and you are probably going to get punished hard for it. Gunz the duel, BW, Street fighter 4, CS 1.6, quake live. There, even gave you a list. GO indulge in those and see if you still think mobas are hard. Its a casual genre hence its broad appeal. You can't just blindfold yourself and think that dota 2 is the height of gamedesign. Its the very same deal with COD. Super casual and easy and alot of people compete in it to. So in short, MOBAS are casual and easy to play. Maybe hard in comparison to an MMO or heavy rain but compared to hard games, its childs play.
You sound like a young person to think teamwork is something easy to attain.... If you're not, that's just sad.
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On September 09 2013 12:46 Celadan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 12:29 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 12:14 saddaromma wrote:On September 09 2013 12:06 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 11:47 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 11:35 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 11:19 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:56 Celadan wrote:On September 09 2013 10:27 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2013 10:21 Celadan wrote:
[quote]
I would reply to this but TL mods doesnt want their precious moba games hurt..... No, they just want you to make real arguments, rather than throwing non-sense around. Hating on other games just because you dont play them is a shitty argument. I have played them and its an rts where you control one unit with 4 abilities. You dont need good reflexes and you dont need more than 12 apm or a steady aim. Like anything that makes an esport an esport is missing from the moba genre. Its super popular because all the people who really liked wc3 but felt like standard was way too hard played dota. It is a watered down RTS. Strats are going to be very limited when you only got 5 units to play with and a bunch of units you can't control like creeps. So what are we left with? Less depth overall. The only reason Mobas were so popular is mostly due to wc3's success and its custom games. LoL and Dota just came when There was a lack of MOBAS so people just jumped on the chance. Just taking advantage of a gap in the gaming marked. There exists better more well made and WAY more fun custom games for wc3 so saying that Sc2 has something to learn from a MOBA is like saying that The Godfather has something to learn from The transformers movies..... Its just a lesser experience overall, and the skillgap between a MOBA pro and a noob is so infinite smaller in almost every other genre of game. Spoke like a person who has never played Dota 2 and has no idea what he is talking about, because you claim that heroes only have 4 abilities. Invoker would like to talk with you, and drop a meat ball on your head. Same with Keeper of the Light. And as I said before, SC2 players have tried to become professional LoL and Dota 2 players, because they thought it was easier. They all failed. -_- But then again no one from their community have succeded as a sc2 pro save for babyknight. and YES MOBAS are easier, and who is it that you refer to? can't be the good ones....(besides already addressed this) Its a lesser game, a custom game from wc3, ofcourse its easier! You sound like a guy thats never played anything but dota. I have played SC2, Dota 2 and League of Legends. Dota 2 is an extremely hard game the punishes you at all time. It is mean, harsh and unforgiving. There are a thousand things to remember and mechanics alone will not save you from defeat. Being a good team mate, knowing who needs support and how to assist them is critical. Heroes like Meepo are as hard to play and controls an entire terran army(meepe is, infact, 5 heroes, each with their own spells). As I said before, you are comparing Golf to Basket ball. You might as well say, "Why is that hard? You just bounce the ball on the ground and then throw it through a hoop. Try hitting a tiny ball 700 yards into a hole the size of a coffee mug and then talk to me about skill." OH wow so you really control 5 units at some point in a moba? that seems really hard! I am not comparing golf to basketball. Making that analogy in itself just proves you dont understand the topic. And underplaying mechanics is just stupid. It just makes no sense at all. And btw "mechanics alone" is infact what seperates allot of people in terms of skill. SKILL a consept you ovliously dont understand. Go play some hard games and try get into the metagame and see how you do. Going back MOBAS then will seem like childs play. The problem with MOBAS is that the only skill you need to know is teamwork. Theres no other way to seperate the bad from the good in the game. DOTA 2 is only unforgiving in comparison to LOL btw. Make one mistake in any other game at a high level and you are probably going to get punished hard for it. Gunz the duel, BW, Street fighter 4, CS 1.6, quake live. There, even gave you a list. GO indulge in those and see if you still think mobas are hard. Its a casual genre hence its broad appeal. You can't just blindfold yourself and think that dota 2 is the height of gamedesign. Its the very same deal with COD. Super casual and easy and alot of people compete in it to. So in short, MOBAS are casual and easy to play. Maybe hard in comparison to an MMO or heavy rain but compared to hard games, its childs play. In moba you should be good at split-second decision making. It comes only with training. Supports with Items have roughly 5-6 abilities and very important ultimates. And every ability should be cast at exact time and place. You can't just say MOBA is easy, ofc its easy for low levels same as sc2. Not anyone from sc2 masters can hit LoL platinum easily. I'm diamond SC2 player but still only maintain Silver in LoL. I'm not even tryhard. Just casual player. Its not worth the time arguing about it. He is just going to claim over and over the Moba are for casual players. There is no point you can make that will change his mind, so don't bother trying. He came here to troll up the thread and he got his wish. Time to stop feeding him. I point out that you are wrong, so ofc i must be trolling. When i first start to argue as to why mobas are not hard compared to better games, you call me a troll. While you keep avoiding the subject itself....
You're calling a teamwork game easy because you think teamwork is not a skill worth praising. That is a personal preference disguising itself as fact, please stop.
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