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On September 03 2013 07:14 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 07:10 Zorkmid wrote:On September 03 2013 07:04 goody153 wrote:On September 03 2013 06:56 mikumegurine wrote:
what if Blizzard remade Brood War with next-gen 3D graphics
same exact Brood war, just with updated top PC 3D graphics
would this 3D BW game be better than SC2 HOTS? no .. pathing and all other issues are there It would be more fun to watch, but much tougher to play. This is considered going backward and Blizzard is not going to do that. And I would agree with them. They should give players more things to do rather than make them fight the AI again.
Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~
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I will agree that there is a lot of dimensions of TvZ lost with WM introduction and muta buff(and blinding cloud if people used tanks in bio centric combosition), but it's still a bit silly statement on TvZ imo.
I feel he should talk more about PvT since that's more of his expertise and I feel it's byfar more broken. Between WoL and HotS T got medivac boost while loosing the ability to 1 rax FE, ability to do pressure on 2 base P aswell as the ability to hide what they are doing until observer. TvP in WoL was in a shit place already, not to mention a pretty boring MU and HotS just made T a lot worse and one dimensional in that MU.
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On September 03 2013 07:24 Zarahtra wrote:
I will agree that there is a lot of dimensions of TvZ lost with WM introduction and muta buff(and blinding cloud if people used tanks in bio centric combosition), but it's still a bit silly statement on TvZ imo.
I feel he should talk more about PvT since that's more of his expertise and I feel it's byfar more broken. Between WoL and HotS T got medivac boost while loosing the ability to 1 rax FE, ability to do pressure on 2 base P aswell as the ability to hide what they are doing until observer. TvP in WoL was in a shit place already, not to mention a pretty boring MU and HotS just made T a lot worse and one dimensional in that MU.
Yeap,
But if he went into depth, the word "bias" would be all over this thread and ruin it.
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Posted this on reddit, hopefully we can get a proper discussion going instead of people riding MC's coat tails.
Zergs can’t trade efficiently using any other unit compositions other than mutas, lings, banelings and teching up to ultralisks.
Not necessarily true, Roach/Hydra is a pretty powerful composition vs MMMW... now, the problem with it is it's mobility. You go to attack? You suffer to drops. You go to engage? Drops can pick your base apart. Also, how "efficient" the composition is totally depends on both players, and the ability to exploit weakness (getting widow mines to launch off minimal number of zerglings for instance).
Terrans are basically immune to the roach attacks, So Zergs are forced play a macro game centered on lings.
...This is most certainly not true. I can make several game references (even ignoring GM level games and only including Professional level). Of course any Terran can block these timings off well ahead of time, but to say, "Terran is basically immune" is absurd, especially considering the current meta-game of most Terran players never building tanks.
Terrans don’t even need to scout. They all know it’s going to be mutalisks lings and banelings.
Again, I don't agree with this. What Terran doesn't scout in today's meta? Herp derp, let me just triple CC with double Ebay into widow mines only to die to a roach baneling all-in. Busts are not as rare as they were back in WoL, as it seems most Zerg players do not feel confident now that the Widow mine is a very powerful tool and hard to deal with.
This allows Terrans to just send their boosted medivacs to harass. They don’t care if they lose it because it’s not risky at all. Zergs are forced to position their units to deal with the harassments from the medivacs which allows Terrans to gain a favorable position at the front which allows for a cost effective trade.
I agree the medivac is what causes a great deal of nerve-wracking in combination with widow mine pushes. The only thing I can say is that a Zerg player has a hard time being able to defend by either using static defenses (which do not cover all over the base), or isolating a number of units to defend (but how many should they leave behind, and how will this affect the large scale engagement?).
They lose the game if they make one micro mistake and lose all their banelings to widow mines.
I agree a barrage of 10 widow mines raining down on banelings can be frustrating, but really...? "One micro mistake?". I think most Terran players understand this sentiment better than anyone else.
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On September 03 2013 07:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 07:14 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:10 Zorkmid wrote:On September 03 2013 07:04 goody153 wrote:On September 03 2013 06:56 mikumegurine wrote:
what if Blizzard remade Brood War with next-gen 3D graphics
same exact Brood war, just with updated top PC 3D graphics
would this 3D BW game be better than SC2 HOTS? no .. pathing and all other issues are there It would be more fun to watch, but much tougher to play. This is considered going backward and Blizzard is not going to do that. And I would agree with them. They should give players more things to do rather than make them fight the AI again. Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~
Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection?
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On September 03 2013 07:45 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 07:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:14 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:10 Zorkmid wrote:On September 03 2013 07:04 goody153 wrote:On September 03 2013 06:56 mikumegurine wrote:
what if Blizzard remade Brood War with next-gen 3D graphics
same exact Brood war, just with updated top PC 3D graphics
would this 3D BW game be better than SC2 HOTS? no .. pathing and all other issues are there It would be more fun to watch, but much tougher to play. This is considered going backward and Blizzard is not going to do that. And I would agree with them. They should give players more things to do rather than make them fight the AI again. Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~ Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection?
No?
Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments?
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On September 03 2013 07:47 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 07:45 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:14 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:10 Zorkmid wrote:On September 03 2013 07:04 goody153 wrote:On September 03 2013 06:56 mikumegurine wrote:
what if Blizzard remade Brood War with next-gen 3D graphics
same exact Brood war, just with updated top PC 3D graphics
would this 3D BW game be better than SC2 HOTS? no .. pathing and all other issues are there It would be more fun to watch, but much tougher to play. This is considered going backward and Blizzard is not going to do that. And I would agree with them. They should give players more things to do rather than make them fight the AI again. Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~ Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection? No? Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments?
Oh is just recycled BW vs SC2 arguments. Why be an expert on something when you can just rehash the same arguments someone else said? I swear they have a shared google.doc.
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Really glad to see more pros voicing their opinion on the current state of SC2. Hopefully this will help further the development of the game.
Thanks for the translation, Terry!
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On September 03 2013 07:47 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 07:45 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:14 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:10 Zorkmid wrote:On September 03 2013 07:04 goody153 wrote:On September 03 2013 06:56 mikumegurine wrote:
what if Blizzard remade Brood War with next-gen 3D graphics
same exact Brood war, just with updated top PC 3D graphics
would this 3D BW game be better than SC2 HOTS? no .. pathing and all other issues are there It would be more fun to watch, but much tougher to play. This is considered going backward and Blizzard is not going to do that. And I would agree with them. They should give players more things to do rather than make them fight the AI again. Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~ Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection? No? Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments?
Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW.
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He seems extremely biased against Terran and really doesn't seem to see the metagame from both standpoints. Kinda disappointing because I like MC. SniXSniPe summed it up pretty well. Especially the part about micro mistakes...um yeah....Terrans have been dealing with that for a very long time. Join the club, Zergs.
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On September 03 2013 07:57 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 07:47 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:45 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:14 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:10 Zorkmid wrote:On September 03 2013 07:04 goody153 wrote:On September 03 2013 06:56 mikumegurine wrote:
what if Blizzard remade Brood War with next-gen 3D graphics
same exact Brood war, just with updated top PC 3D graphics
would this 3D BW game be better than SC2 HOTS? no .. pathing and all other issues are there It would be more fun to watch, but much tougher to play. This is considered going backward and Blizzard is not going to do that. And I would agree with them. They should give players more things to do rather than make them fight the AI again. Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~ Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection? No? Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments? Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW.
I never said that at any point in this discussion or any other one, but feel free to keep strawman-ing my posts if you feel that's helpful.
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On September 03 2013 07:07 OPL3SA2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 05:58 MajOr wrote:On September 03 2013 05:57 Neemi wrote:On September 03 2013 05:48 MajOr wrote:On September 03 2013 05:46 Entirety wrote:On September 03 2013 05:41 MajOr wrote:
hes an idiot plz stick talking about protoss vs x cuz clearly he 0 clue about tvz match up I hear that MC is pretty sick with his off-races too  so it dosent matter any terran with some clue how to play this game reads that and knows its plain out wrong Not that I'm siding with MC, but could you explain what's wrong with what he's saying beyond "he has no clue"? Besides like 5% of the games of ZvT I've played where a daring player went mech (I salute you) every single game was the T player going Marine/Marauder/Mine/Medivac and MC backed up his argument quite well. I'm interested to learn different views on the matter. Terrans are basically immune to the roach attacks, ?? and than he says terran dont need to scout xD ok gl playing vs roach bane ifu dont scout This is true. Roaches are still part of the metagame, and I think MC is guilty of oversimplifying the matchup. I think a lot of his other points are right, when both players agree not to flat out win the game in the beggining. Which is not neccessarily cheese either, like roach ling baneling timing attack does not have to kill the opponent for you to get insanely ahead as a result of it... If you want an example of someone who doesn't understand this, look no furhter than Jaedong. If you want an example of someone who does understand this, look at Scarlett. In the example I'm choosing right now, Scarlett took 2 games off Bomber before Bomber 4-0 jaedong and made it look easy. Why did bomber make it look easy? Because Jaedong is writing secret agreement to not use roaches in his metagame. He's writing these secret agreeements, and he doesn't even know he's doing it. It's pretty crazy
That's a weird example as Scarlett didn't use any roaches either in any of the 5 games, not even in game 5 vs. reaper/hellion contain. She took 2 games of of Bomber in macro fests in which she simply engaged so much better than Jaedong ever did during the finals.
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Really nice words from MC, but based on what i see since 2010, i tend to think that Blizzard doesn't listen to the community, and just do whatever they think it's good to the game.
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On September 03 2013 07:57 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 07:47 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:45 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:14 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:10 Zorkmid wrote:On September 03 2013 07:04 goody153 wrote:On September 03 2013 06:56 mikumegurine wrote:
what if Blizzard remade Brood War with next-gen 3D graphics
same exact Brood war, just with updated top PC 3D graphics
would this 3D BW game be better than SC2 HOTS? no .. pathing and all other issues are there It would be more fun to watch, but much tougher to play. This is considered going backward and Blizzard is not going to do that. And I would agree with them. They should give players more things to do rather than make them fight the AI again. Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~ Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection? No? Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments? Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW.
Uh, clumping and unlimited selection are not what make SC2 inferior to BW. With the exception of Smart Casting, I think all the "shiny"-type updates in SC2 would fit Brood War just fine. The underlying units and balance and strategies would still remain and that is the magic of Brood War.
Box select a maxed Protoss army and A-move it into a Brood War tank line and see what happens (blue...blue everywhere). Put Bisu in that situation and you will not see a whole lot of double- or control-clicking. At the top level, things like unlimited control groups would just help bad players die faster.
However, down in scrub league, it would go a long way toward helping us mortals relax and enjoy the game, haha...
EDIT: I will say that somethings would have to change. For example, if you let Jaedong select 30 mutalisks at one time...oh my heavens, no. Flash probably wakes up in a cold sweat once a week after his brain starts mixing SC2 and BW and he has that nightmare.
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On September 03 2013 07:58 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 07:57 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:47 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:45 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:14 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:10 Zorkmid wrote:On September 03 2013 07:04 goody153 wrote:On September 03 2013 06:56 mikumegurine wrote:
what if Blizzard remade Brood War with next-gen 3D graphics
same exact Brood war, just with updated top PC 3D graphics
would this 3D BW game be better than SC2 HOTS? no .. pathing and all other issues are there It would be more fun to watch, but much tougher to play. This is considered going backward and Blizzard is not going to do that. And I would agree with them. They should give players more things to do rather than make them fight the AI again. Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~ Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection? No? Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments? Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW. I never said that at any point in this discussion or any other one, but feel free to keep strawman-ing my posts if you feel that's helpful.
What's your suggestion then, to say BW makes player "fight against the AI" without being accused of recycling BW vs SC2 discussion, even when it is kinda obvious everybody could see it ?
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I agree with MC 100%. Its good to a see a progamer say what I've been thinking for a while now, that SC2 has gotten really 1 dimensional.
I tried to get my older brother into SC2 and he quit after a few weeks because he said that "it isn't a strategy game, its who can build the same thing the fastest".
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On September 03 2013 08:13 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 07:58 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:57 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:47 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:45 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:14 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:10 Zorkmid wrote:On September 03 2013 07:04 goody153 wrote:On September 03 2013 06:56 mikumegurine wrote:
what if Blizzard remade Brood War with next-gen 3D graphics
same exact Brood war, just with updated top PC 3D graphics
would this 3D BW game be better than SC2 HOTS? no .. pathing and all other issues are there It would be more fun to watch, but much tougher to play. This is considered going backward and Blizzard is not going to do that. And I would agree with them. They should give players more things to do rather than make them fight the AI again. Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~ Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection? No? Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments? Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW. I never said that at any point in this discussion or any other one, but feel free to keep strawman-ing my posts if you feel that's helpful. What's your suggestion then, to say BW makes player "fight against the AI" without being accused of recycling BW vs SC2 discussion, even when it is kinda obvious everybody could see it ?
That you're making the problem out to be much bigger than it really was? I mean the game would never win any awards for path-finding but it was most definitely serviceable, even more so for its time. Age of Empires had just as many if not more issues and yet I don't see a whole lot of complaining about that, even though it too was a great game in its own right and had a fair following back in the day...
Also, if it truly "is kinda obvious everybody could see it" then some new game with more polish would have succeeded BW as the biggest competitive RTS, surely? Not even a Blizzard game, maybe Empire Earth or some C&C game... hmm...
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I've mostly quit watching SC2 over a number of these issues. There are two main problems I think, long term I don't think the game shows enough variety and I just get so sick of all the internet drama. The two things are a very big turn off. The low quality of the foreign scene doesn't help much either.
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On September 03 2013 06:49 MajOr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 06:35 synd wrote:On September 03 2013 05:48 MajOr wrote:On September 03 2013 05:46 Entirety wrote:On September 03 2013 05:41 MajOr wrote:
hes an idiot plz stick talking about protoss vs x cuz clearly he 0 clue about tvz match up I hear that MC is pretty sick with his off-races too so it dosent matter any terran with some clue how to play this game reads that and knows its plain out wrong I respect you MajOr as a player but I'm quite sure that MC's offrace is probably better than your main race terran. ? are you out of your mind on what grounds u say this?
The fact you're in the category of gamers who MC is addressing in his "progamer" part. You're not one of the more memorable ones despite some fandom on this foreign site.
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On September 03 2013 07:57 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 07:47 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:45 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:14 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:10 Zorkmid wrote:On September 03 2013 07:04 goody153 wrote:On September 03 2013 06:56 mikumegurine wrote:
what if Blizzard remade Brood War with next-gen 3D graphics
same exact Brood war, just with updated top PC 3D graphics
would this 3D BW game be better than SC2 HOTS? no .. pathing and all other issues are there It would be more fun to watch, but much tougher to play. This is considered going backward and Blizzard is not going to do that. And I would agree with them. They should give players more things to do rather than make them fight the AI again. Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~ Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection? No? Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments? Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW.
1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a in BW give you marching army in a line, 1a x 61 stalkers give you a ball.
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EPT
