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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On September 03 2013 03:12 Elite_ wrote: This is about StarCraft II as an eSport, not as a game. It's about the entertainment value of watching the game be played by professionals, not getting more people to play. You need to have a game before you have an eSport. Splitting the issues is shortsighted. | ||
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purakushi
United States3301 Posts
Sadly, SC2 is not this. Blizzard keeps throwing tons of money at the SC2 scene, and people wonder why it is not doing that great (in Korea). It is not the money, community, or even really the balance. The issue is with the game itself. If the game is fun to play and watch, players/viewers will come. Sadly, SC2 is not this. As I like to think of it, if a person/community is used to something better (BW), a forced switch into something inferior (SC2) is not going to last. Sure, you can all say that BW had many other factors that contributed to its success outside of it being an awesome game, but it still stands that despite all of the money thrown at the SC2 scene (in Korea), it is failing. Even if you consider its (anti) relationship with LoL and that it could be considered as "incomplete" (LotV), it is SC2 itself that is to blame. /reminiscing of a better time. | ||
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Nibbler89
884 Posts
On September 03 2013 02:37 Dingodile wrote: MC is true. If I play T, I usually never scout Z before 8:30 and here only to see if he has 3rd. Then I play standard 4M I dont care with which comp he comes, everything is welcome. 4M is too cost-effiency so that drops aren't risky. Not even funny if you build upon 25-35supply all 30sec. Obviously T is the strongest race, TvZ has bigger problems than TvP and PvZ. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=427796 The anti terran bias on TL of so many people is insane. | ||
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e4e5nf3
Canada599 Posts
I don't think its fair to compare a fairly completed game (BW) with one that is nowhere near finished. | ||
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
On September 03 2013 03:18 purakushi wrote: Even if the game is one-dimensional, if the units have high skillcaps (like in BW), things can still be very exciting. Not to mention battles last much longer, granting more time for the better player to out control/micro/multi-task their opponents. Sadly, SC2 is not this. Blizzard keeps throwing tons of money at the SC2 scene, and people wonder why it is not doing that great (in Korea). It is not the money, community, or even really the balance. The issue is with the game itself. If the game is fun to play and watch, players/viewers will come. Sadly, SC2 is not this. As I like to think of it, if a person/community is used to something better (BW), a forced switch into something inferior (SC2) is not going to last. Sure, you can all say that BW had many other factors that contributed to its success outside of it being an awesome game, but it still stands that despite all of the money thrown at the SC2 scene (in Korea), it is failing. Even if you consider its (anti) relationship with LoL and that it could be considered as "incomplete" (LotV), it is SC2 itself that is to blame. /reminiscing of a better time. We'll be seeing Bisu and Jangbi in SSL soon. It'll be just like the old days. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On September 03 2013 03:33 e4e5nf3 wrote: We still have one more expansion to go before SC2 can even be attempted to be truly balanced. Until then things are going to be chaotic... and hopefully SC2 doesn't die waiting for it's "final form". I don't think its fair to compare a fairly completed game (BW) with one that is nowhere near finished. With the current pattern and features brought from HotS into SC2, one can extrapolate the future of the game. BW was GROUNDBREAKING as an expo as they revamped many features that revolutionized the gameplay and such. HotS is merely using the Editor to create a couple of new units and then shuffling the stats a bit. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 03 2013 03:36 Xiphos wrote: BW was GROUNDBREAKING as an expo as they revamped many features that revolutionized the gameplay and such. As someone who never caught original SC and BW, care to tell me all of 'em? | ||
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trifecta
United States6795 Posts
On September 03 2013 03:37 lolfail9001 wrote: As someone who never caught original SC and BW, care to tell me all of 'em? most important additions: lurker, medic, dark templar, corsair | ||
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Schakal111
20 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 03 2013 03:48 Schakal111 wrote: remove swarmhost with lurker and the game is more fun to watch, and more fun to play as zerg, better defense, better unit against marines etc. dont know why there is no lurker in the game, blizzard: "bla bla we dont want a new sc 1", swarmhost is terrible. Replace unit A with BW unit, game will be fixed. No qualification why this would happen, but people will agree because you used a unit from BW. "Replace Stalker with Dragoon, PvT fixed." Its that easy folks. | ||
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udgnim
United States8024 Posts
On September 03 2013 03:37 lolfail9001 wrote: As someone who never caught original SC and BW, care to tell me all of 'em? BW completely changed the game around and was much better than SC1 WoL > HotS not so much other than finally breaking the OPness of the Infestor | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 03 2013 03:53 udgnim wrote: BW completely changed the game around and was much better than SC1 WoL > HotS not so much other than finally breaking the OPness of the Infestor Elaborate please, introduction of replays, or what? | ||
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On September 03 2013 03:49 Plansix wrote: Replace unit A with BW unit, game will be fixed. No qualification why this would happen, but people will agree because you used a unit from BW. "Replace Stalker with Dragoon, PvT fixed." Its that easy folks. Actually if you want to read about qualifications why this could be a good idea, there have already been countless threads discussing each and every aspect of game design and how some parts of it are generally worse. I like substantiated claims over the opposite, but even if he brought those forward, it would just give you an excuse to dismiss it as something we've heard hundreds of times already.  Plus your counter-example's not that good. Replacing the Stalker with the Dragoon without tweaking the latter's stats *and* keeping warp-gate mechanics unchanged would probably completely break PvT. And the other match-ups too, most likely. It doesn't take a genius to realize the Lurker is simply a more interesting unit, and that Hold Position micro makes it not just interesting to watch but also rewarding to use if you can execute it correctly, as opposed to a boring "spawn strong free units that you can then a-move" unit. They're both positional, area control units but one is clearly more interesting and has proven that in the countless pro games it's been used it. Conversely, you could make the argument that replacing the swarm host with the lurker would either make the baneling redundant (which is one of the more exciting units in SC2 to begin with) or that they would have to nerf it severely just like they did with other AoE options to prevent it from being overpowered. You know, as opposed to just dismissing an opinion. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
For the record I believe swarm hosts without enduring locust upgrade would be insanely fun. | ||
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Prog455
Denmark970 Posts
On September 03 2013 02:37 Dingodile wrote: MC is true. If I play T, I usually never scout Z before 8:30 and here only to see if he has 3rd. Then I play standard 4M I dont care with which comp he comes, everything is welcome. 4M is too cost-effiency so that drops aren't risky. Not even funny if you build upon 25-35supply all 30sec. Obviously T is the strongest race, TvZ has bigger problems than TvP and PvZ. I too play Terran and i agree with this. Terran is too strong against Zerg, and it is a pretty big tell that something is very wrong when people think their own race is OP. I believe that the sole reason for the current state of TvZ is that Widow Mines are poorly designed units. They are simply too good against everything Zerg. This was what made pre-HotS Zerg boring because Infestors were good against almost any unit in the game, and Widow Mine is pretty much the same right now. We never really needed the Widow Mine. If just Tanks and Thor anti-air had been buffed we wouldn't need an OP and boring unit, and we would have more diversity. EDIT: Also i don't think that strong AoE is the problem, as it has the potential to break up Deathballs. The occurs when one race has far superior AoE compared to the other race, which is apparent in TvP and TvZ. In TvP we have seen Terran armies obliterated by Storms, which means that Protoss can cost-effeciently deal with larger armies. The problem is Terran has no equivalent to Storm, so we have to Deathball regardless. This is the same problem as in TvZ where Widow Mines can kill a lot of Zerg units in seconds, but since Banelings are too weak against Terran, Zerg has to go for a Deathball regardless. Long story short - AoE is not per definition a bad thing. The problem is when one race has too strong AoE compared to the other. | ||
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Schakal111
20 Posts
On September 03 2013 03:49 Plansix wrote: Replace unit A with BW unit, game will be fixed. No qualification why this would happen, but people will agree because you used a unit from BW. "Replace Stalker with Dragoon, PvT fixed." Its that easy folks. Qualification is you have better defense and attack in meta game as zerg, so you can better go to hive tech or kill terran if you can, terran need more micro to fight against lurkers, you can better defense drop play if lurker burrowed at expansion, you can better hold marines waves, terran need siege tank and detection(Scan or ravens), the battles are longer and more fun to watch because nobody want to waste their units to mines or lurkers more micro battles, you can drop lurker in terran main base little drops to harras terran, and so on.. Maybe lurker is good for PvZ too because there are more micro fights and the toss need more micro. | ||
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Kuroeeah
11696 Posts
"We know how to fix the Brood Lord/Infestor/Ling problem but unfortunately we can't actually resolve these specific issues until HOTS because it would involve changing the game design" or them basically having to hype up their next expansion feels like the SC2 development team is forced into reserving major game design changes or the implementation of good ideas that would change the game's infrastructure because of this whole trilogy structure they had set up for themselves. I mean really this quote was so off putting to me when I first heard it because it gives this impression that Blizzard has good ideas but for marketing/financial reasons is telling you to wait and pay money for the expansion to actually see them. Good ideas doesn't necessarily mean it has anything to do with game balance but rather we didn't see a major revamp of Battle.net 2.0 and the playable replay feature until HOTS was released. If we see a similar quote from David, Browder or anyone that's on the higher up in the SC2 development team in regards to "Unfortunately you won't see a solution to X in this HotS, you're going to have to wait until LotV arrives" than it's only proving my point that the entire structure was a bad idea in the first place. Having to pay for SC2 isn't really an issue considering how many copies the original game sold but to a casual fan of e-sports, they can explore other alternatives such as DotA 2 or LoL in terms of games that are considered competitive and isn't forced to pay a dime to see major changes or revisions to either games. In fact it's rather sad that so many faces of the SC2 community such as Nazgul or Mr.Chae recently been interviewed can only speak to how Valve's approach towards managing their e-sports scene is seemingly so far ahead of Blizzard's. I don't want to be ignorant, I know the hard workers at Blizzard obviously cares about their own game and everyone should know they're fully aware of the comparisons made even having Blizzard employee's bluntly being asked why it's not more like it's competitors but you really ought to wonder what's going on in a company that used to be universally beloved by everyone. | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On September 03 2013 03:49 Plansix wrote: Replace unit A with BW unit, game will be fixed. No qualification why this would happen, but people will agree because you used a unit from BW. "Replace Stalker with Dragoon, PvT fixed." Its that easy folks. You do know that most units are from SC1 anyhow? | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 03 2013 04:11 ysnake wrote: You do know that most units are from SC1 anyhow? Except heavily modified ones. | ||
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halfaspider
United States31 Posts
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