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Zambrah
United States7382 Posts
On September 03 2013 02:26 Havik_ wrote: I thought people forgot about that. lol. Make 30 Ghosts and snipe the fuck out of everything. I remember those days. So imba. I think that game at Blizzcon between Mvp and Nestea will live on with everyone who saw it. Total snipe-nihillation, lol. | ||
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Malphite
United States186 Posts
On September 03 2013 02:26 Havik_ wrote: I thought people forgot about that. lol. Make 30 Ghosts and snipe the fuck out of everything. I remember those days. So imba. Made the game actually fun to play... that's the problem. League has about 20 OP champions and about 70 champions that never gets into a LCS game. I just want a fun SC2 game to play regardless of balance. | ||
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KJSharp
United States84 Posts
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Chewbacca.
United States3634 Posts
On September 03 2013 02:15 TheDwf wrote: ... being the only composition able to deal with Zerg's new tools. You're welcome. ...Exactly why the match-up is boring. 4M is by far terrans best build so they go it every game and then that forces zerg into the same composition all the time making for boring games. That is why something needs to be changed...not really sure what the "you're welcome" is supposed to mean. | ||
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aregularuser
Belize3 Posts
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
On September 03 2013 00:35 lolfail9001 wrote: You forget that pro-gamers like to choose composition that is BETTER. So should we make mech viable as separate strategy we will be stuck on MMMM or mech (depending what will turn out better) most of time anyway. Making mech transitions in late-game viable IS the way to go IMO. This is why you make it so that mech only works vs Toss, so that way MU's feel different for each time you play a race keeping the game fresh and exciting and requiring being good at many different executable strategies based on the MU. Right now as T, you just make rines and rauders, every MU every time. If blizz goes overboard on these mech changes they are talking about it will be equally bad, because then T will just be mech every MU every time. Ideally with an RTS you want to have different tools for each MU that the race an employ and different strategies. War3 was a lot of fun because when I was UD I had my crypt feind statue strategy for Orc, my mass ghoul tri hero strategy for HU, and my ghoul+Gargoyle strat for NE. The game was so fresh because I always had to strive to work on each MU and each MU was fresh because I kept rotating through so many strategies. A big problem here with SC2 is that people mistake(as seen earlier in my posts arguing with others) is that some wacky build counts as strategy. "OH WELL THERE WAS THAT REAPER BUILD, THE 1-1-1 BUILD, oh and that one other MINE DROP BUILD. Its nice to have diff builds I wont argue there, but the problem is it doesn't really change the strategic state of the game, because regardless of what race I am playing, I am just going to build marines and rauders. Right now if you play Terran, you have the strategic depth of warcraft 2................ | ||
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Dingodile
4137 Posts
On September 03 2013 02:22 vNmMasterT wrote: Personally I think MC is just trying to divert the attention on PvT away to TvZ. Obviously he knows P is currently the strongest race right now. This drivel he is spilling regarding TvZ just makes him look bad. Just look at some of his statements: "Terrans are basically immune to the roach attacks" "Terrans don’t even need to scout." "They don’t care if they lose it [medivac drops] because it’s not risky at all" "Broodlords, Ultralisks. Both of these units are easily countered by low tech Terran units." "They lose the game if they make one micro mistake and lose all their banelings to widow mines." what the fuck!? The whole balance portion of the post is not worthy of a progamer and is actually shameful. He's only getting away with this since he's won a lot of money in SC2. All the while he is keeping his mouth shut about all the protoss issues. MC is true. If I play T, I usually never scout Z before 8:30 and here only to see if he has 3rd. Then I play standard 4M I dont care with which comp he comes, everything is welcome. 4M is too cost-effiency so that drops aren't risky. Not even funny if you build upon 25-35supply all 30sec. Obviously T is the strongest race, TvZ has bigger problems than TvP and PvZ. | ||
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highsis
259 Posts
On September 03 2013 02:35 aregularuser wrote: --- Nuked --- what is this I don't even.. | ||
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Chewbacca.
United States3634 Posts
Angry about a ban he received earlier today. | ||
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BoZiffer
United States1841 Posts
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Ettick
United States2434 Posts
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
I think they important thing we can do is, not quibble over the exact changes, but simple unite in getting blizzard to make changes. Right now they seem happy with much of what we have. If anything is going to change, we need to encourage them to be daring and try to spice things up. At the same time, we all need to work at not whining if such spice is not immediately to our liking. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
/thread | ||
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c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
its like they designed this game to be frustrating. When i think about blizzard's incompetence from day one it's no surprise to me that the thor is still in the game at this point, TvP is still a do or die matchup (Kill P or you lose.) TvZ is no longer the patient bio tank into mech of bw its now just 4 spammable units running around, burrowing in one second and insta gibbing armies. its really retarded and i dont know how to fix it, blizzard has caused all their own problems. reading this from MC and taking some time off have realy shown me how coinflip/retarded this game can be especially when the alternatives out there are not only funner but more well balance.. | ||
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Caladan
Germany1238 Posts
 Hope many other progamers read this. Thx for the translation! | ||
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shell
Portugal2722 Posts
\YOUR OPINION? I for instance hate all moba games, can't even see it for 5minutes and i tried, just to see if it was any good. HoN, LoL and Dota2 are some of the games that won't ever play.. It sucks for me, no fun, no spectator sport etc... but that's me and MOBA's are doing great.. I won't trade SC2 for any RTS game right now and won't trade it for no MOBA's.. | ||
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
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Thinasy
2856 Posts
On September 03 2013 02:29 Malphite wrote: Made the game actually fun to play... that's the problem. League has about 20 OP champions and about 70 champions that never gets into a LCS game. I just want a fun SC2 game to play regardless of balance. 20 OP Champions & 70 champions that never gets into LCS? Watch other regions play then, China especially has a very different meta. Just cause something is played regulary in the NA or EU LCS doesnt mean the rest is trash | ||
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
What is MC saying (and then being hailed as the Messiah by the reddit community about)? The HotS metagame is one dimensional! Look at Terran compositions in WoL and now HotS. We saw Mech played about 0.1% of the time in matchups like TvP because Terrans much perferred the all-out aggressive bio style. I also did numerous number crunches that proved that Siege Tanks in SC2 were actually significantly nerfed and did lower damage across the bat, even as much as 50% less damage to certain units like Archons. Archons used to take six Siege Tank shells to kill in Brood War because BW tanks did 70 Explosive damage which was 100% damage to Large units. Siege Tanks in SC2 only deal 35 damage to Archons meaning that Archons take eleven Siege tank shells to kill, despite having the same Life and Shields in both versions. TvZ was quite similar in the way that you'd often see biomech in the form of marines and siege tanks rule the metagame. In fact, the only time I've really seen full-on Mech become popular was when Mvp discovered that gasless expand into hellion and banshee build. And that didn't last long once people began to figure out how to counter Mech. We are seeing an even worse situation in HotS. Can anybody please refer me to a professional level TvP in the last few months that didn't revolve around MMMM? (that being Marines, Marauders, Medivacs and Mines.) The problem is exactly what MC has pointed out. Tier 2 and Tier 3 (especially for Terrans) are so underpowered and garbage that it has made the metagame one-dimensional. There is only one race I can think of with an adequate Tier 3 selection and that is Protoss because High Templar, Archons, Tempests and Colossi in combination are virtually unbeatable for other races meaning they have to cripple or kill the Protoss opponent before the much-feared late game. Bio+Mines should be punishing in the way that it indefinitely delays your tech and dies to Tier 3. But when it is designed as the only viable option to prevent, let alone take out Tier 2 and Tier 3 Zerg and Protoss units, then you have a massive balance problem. The issue with Terran (for example) is that you cannot turtle up and continue to take and reasonably expect to defend additional bases. I'll give a few examples of what I mean below: 1. Hellions are complete garbage even against the units they are supposed to hard-counter. EDIT: It was Life vs Last but I swear I did see a similar game between him and Flash where he took out about ten blue flame hellions with a ling surround. Now put them up against a tier 1.5 armored unit like the Marauder, Roach or Stalker and look at how one-sided that fight is. 2. As I said the Siege Tank is simply underpowered and its role has been entirely replaced by the Marauder and Widow Mine. Brood War was a balanced game on each tier. The Ultralisk had 400 Life and worked just fine despite worse pathing-AI in Brood War. In SC2 the Ultralisk has 500 Life yet due to the existence of Marauders and Widow Mines, are easier to kill. This has led to David Kim wanting to buff Ultralisk HP by 100 (which would give them 50% more life than they had in Brood War.) 3. Several Protoss units were designed to hard-counter the Siege Tank when Skytoss and Zealots did that just fine in Brood War. Remember when I said that Archons take 5 more hits to kill in SC2 than in Brood War? Try out the Colossus and the Immortal. The former takes seven hits to kill, is a much faster attack-move oriented unit and is therefore much easier to micro than a Reaver which only took three hits to kill. The Immortal likewise takes fourteen hits to kill and is the tankiest unit against Siege Tanks in the game at present. 4. Stalkers soft-counter Siege Tanks. The Siege Tank in Brood War was designed to ward away Dragoons which had embarassingly bad pathing AI and 20 more Life than the SC2 Stalker, yet only took 3 hits to kill. The SC2 Stalker only has 160 as opposed to 180 effective health and takes four hits to kill. Additionally, Stalkers have better pathing AI and Blink meaning they can instantly warp into the Siege Tank's dead zone, forcing them to fire splash damage onto each other and completely preventing their ability to attack in some cases. 5. Ravens are still unreliable compared to Infestors and High Templar and should have been replaced by Science Vessels long ago. Auto-turrets are very weak and awkward to place down and Seeker Missiles are unreliable in the way that most units can completely negate them if they run away in time. It was worse in WoL when the low range of Seekers didn't allow you to even use them against anything but Brood Lords but.HotS has hardly made viable. | ||
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Elite_
United States4259 Posts
On September 03 2013 02:53 Doodsmack wrote: You can make SC2 as close to BW as you want, you can make Blizzard make all the changes we as a community want, but it still won't revive it as an esport. That's because people aren't paying attention to the game in the first place, because they're not playing it, because 1) it's an RTS and 2) you have to pay to play. You think people want to play stressful 1v1s where the mechanics feels like a chore to play, when there is now a free alternative where you can chill with your friends (moba)? No. /thread This is about StarCraft II as an eSport, not as a game. It's about the entertainment value of watching the game be played by professionals, not getting more people to play. | ||
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