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On September 03 2013 01:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 01:09 stuneedsfood wrote:On September 03 2013 01:05 Netto. wrote:On September 03 2013 00:59 stuneedsfood wrote:
"I loved TvZ in WoL, but now? I really don’t like it. It’s always the same."
I want to post a .gif of a broodlord/infestor deathball. I think that will express my opinion much better than words. IT WAS EVERY SINGLE GAME. I think it was cool and balanced, just like terrans are thinking their 4M is cool and balanced now. I don't know what current TvZ stats are, but I doubt they come close to the lopsidedness of the TvZ stats of late 2012. I give it another month or so before I think Blizzard needs to step in and tone down the widow mine. I still think it should borrow a low slower on creep. It's a nerf without doing anything crazy.
I dont think it shows in stats below GM. If you dont have good splits and fast multitask you can lose your whole army against banelings. You can get punished quite hard. THe problem occurs when the best progamers have such sick micro and control that they simply never make mistakes like that out on the map.
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I think MC is quite right about the situation in TvZ. Terran needs to be forced into teching out of bio at some point, possibly through a nerf to 3/3 bio + a buff to mech or air. That is of course quite radical, it would effect TvP equally, so mech definately needs to be buffed first.
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On September 03 2013 01:22 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 01:12 Plansix wrote:On September 03 2013 01:09 stuneedsfood wrote:On September 03 2013 01:05 Netto. wrote:On September 03 2013 00:59 stuneedsfood wrote:
"I loved TvZ in WoL, but now? I really don’t like it. It’s always the same."
I want to post a .gif of a broodlord/infestor deathball. I think that will express my opinion much better than words. IT WAS EVERY SINGLE GAME. I think it was cool and balanced, just like terrans are thinking their 4M is cool and balanced now. I don't know what current TvZ stats are, but I doubt they come close to the lopsidedness of the TvZ stats of late 2012. I give it another month or so before I think Blizzard needs to step in and tone down the widow mine. I still think it should borrow a low slower on creep. It's a nerf without doing anything crazy. I dont think it shows in stats below GM. If you dont have good splits and fast multitask you can lose your whole army against banelings. You can get punished quite hard. THe problem occurs when the best progamers have such sick micro and control that they simply never make mistakes like that out on the map.
Which is why I like the burrows slower on creep. It will only effect people with really good creep spread and where that extra couple of seconds matters. It's not a straight damage nerf, shock is what I fear most. I also want hellion tranformation to be faster and cost less, because we don't see it enough.
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On September 03 2013 01:22 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 01:12 Plansix wrote:On September 03 2013 01:09 stuneedsfood wrote:On September 03 2013 01:05 Netto. wrote:On September 03 2013 00:59 stuneedsfood wrote:
"I loved TvZ in WoL, but now? I really don’t like it. It’s always the same."
I want to post a .gif of a broodlord/infestor deathball. I think that will express my opinion much better than words. IT WAS EVERY SINGLE GAME. I think it was cool and balanced, just like terrans are thinking their 4M is cool and balanced now. I don't know what current TvZ stats are, but I doubt they come close to the lopsidedness of the TvZ stats of late 2012. I give it another month or so before I think Blizzard needs to step in and tone down the widow mine. I still think it should borrow a low slower on creep. It's a nerf without doing anything crazy. I dont think it shows in stats below GM. If you dont have good splits and fast multitask you can lose your whole army against banelings. You can get punished quite hard. THe problem occurs when the best progamers have such sick micro and control that they simply never make mistakes like that out on the map.
Oh, but they do make mistakes from time to time. No one's perfect man. This game has had a number of patches and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Good thing we never had to worry about this in SC:BW. All the important balance changes were done by now.
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I think PvT is still same as in WoL. Terran trying to kill toss before 15mins, after that its slow death for terran.. Except in HoTS its even harder thanks to MSC :/
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On September 03 2013 01:33 kroko wrote:
I think PvT is still same as in WoL. Terran trying to kill toss before 15mins, after that its slow death for terran.. Except in HoTS its even harder thanks to MSC :/
Hey~~~ you did watch taeja vs rain right?
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On September 03 2013 01:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 01:22 Fjodorov wrote:On September 03 2013 01:12 Plansix wrote:On September 03 2013 01:09 stuneedsfood wrote:On September 03 2013 01:05 Netto. wrote:On September 03 2013 00:59 stuneedsfood wrote:
"I loved TvZ in WoL, but now? I really don’t like it. It’s always the same."
I want to post a .gif of a broodlord/infestor deathball. I think that will express my opinion much better than words. IT WAS EVERY SINGLE GAME. I think it was cool and balanced, just like terrans are thinking their 4M is cool and balanced now. I don't know what current TvZ stats are, but I doubt they come close to the lopsidedness of the TvZ stats of late 2012. I give it another month or so before I think Blizzard needs to step in and tone down the widow mine. I still think it should borrow a low slower on creep. It's a nerf without doing anything crazy. I dont think it shows in stats below GM. If you dont have good splits and fast multitask you can lose your whole army against banelings. You can get punished quite hard. THe problem occurs when the best progamers have such sick micro and control that they simply never make mistakes like that out on the map. Which is why I like the burrows slower on creep. It will only effect people with really good creep spread and where that extra couple of seconds matters. It's not a straight damage nerf, shock is what I fear most. I also want hellion tranformation to be faster and cost less, because we don't see it enough.
It does seem like a nice idea. However it still doesn't address MC's concerns about medivacs being just too cost effective that terrans can just keep doing drops. Whatever it is Blizzard needs to be quick unlike earlier where they took their time. They don't have a lot of time since there is a lot of competition to SC2 in esports in the form of LoL and the stale metagame might cause more people to switch.
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+ units = + strategies
+ fun
- stagnant and one dimensional
but.....
+ difficult do balance
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mc giving tvz the scorcher!
thanks terry, good read.
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On September 03 2013 01:36 rice_devOurer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 01:33 kroko wrote:
I think PvT is still same as in WoL. Terran trying to kill toss before 15mins, after that its slow death for terran.. Except in HoTS its even harder thanks to MSC :/ Hey~~~ you did watch taeja vs rain right?
Yea I did.
Code S terrans dont care about balance  (never have)
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I agree for the most part...especially on tvz
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On September 03 2013 01:06 Bareleon wrote:
I am surprised MC didn't comment on the A-move units of toss and the boring state of pvt.
I was expecting this, but instead I saw Zerg tears from Protoss. As long as banelings blow up my whole army if I make small mistake, I don't shed any tears when my widow mines destroy pack of non-split banelings from Zerg that doesn't bother to micro his army.
While it would be great to see more variance in Terran options, it's not cool to downplay like it's easy as fuck playing 4M.
TvP is bigger concern than TvZ imo, it's gone back to same crap as in WoL, except P has more variety of allins that he can throw at you. One can hope for Protoss design revamp for LoTV, but I'm not holding my breath.
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I agree with what he says about the metagame becoming stale then it gets boring to watch. He also made numerous comparisons to brood war and how the matchup had many interesting choices so you never knew what they were going to do. TvZ certainly does not have that right now.
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On September 03 2013 01:37 WickedBit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 01:29 Plansix wrote:On September 03 2013 01:22 Fjodorov wrote:On September 03 2013 01:12 Plansix wrote:On September 03 2013 01:09 stuneedsfood wrote:On September 03 2013 01:05 Netto. wrote:On September 03 2013 00:59 stuneedsfood wrote:
"I loved TvZ in WoL, but now? I really don’t like it. It’s always the same."
I want to post a .gif of a broodlord/infestor deathball. I think that will express my opinion much better than words. IT WAS EVERY SINGLE GAME. I think it was cool and balanced, just like terrans are thinking their 4M is cool and balanced now. I don't know what current TvZ stats are, but I doubt they come close to the lopsidedness of the TvZ stats of late 2012. I give it another month or so before I think Blizzard needs to step in and tone down the widow mine. I still think it should borrow a low slower on creep. It's a nerf without doing anything crazy. I dont think it shows in stats below GM. If you dont have good splits and fast multitask you can lose your whole army against banelings. You can get punished quite hard. THe problem occurs when the best progamers have such sick micro and control that they simply never make mistakes like that out on the map. Which is why I like the burrows slower on creep. It will only effect people with really good creep spread and where that extra couple of seconds matters. It's not a straight damage nerf, shock is what I fear most. I also want hellion tranformation to be faster and cost less, because we don't see it enough. It does seem like a nice idea. However it still doesn't address MC's concerns about medivacs being just too cost effective that terrans can just keep doing drops. Whatever it is Blizzard needs to be quick unlike earlier where they took their time. They don't have a lot of time since there is a lot of competition to SC2 in esports in the form of LoL and the stale metagame might cause more people to switch.
The MSC might need a tweek and I would like it to be with time warp, rather than the nexus cannon. Terran units are still pretty squirlly compared to protoss and was less effective, it would them pressure around the nexus cannon or require the protoss to be more careful when they throw it down. I would also like to see the reaper get an animation change when they jump down cliffs so they can get away from stalkers and other units easier. It would help terran long term scouting. But I have my list of stuff that I would like changed. Its all tiny things and not the standard "buff tank, make mech good', but I have hope Blizzard will make good changes.
If the community wants to do anything, they should focus on giving Blizzard "approval" to experiment and not jumping on them when they test something. The worst part about balance right now(maybe forever) is that everyone freaks out about every little thing, so good feedback is hard to find.
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On September 03 2013 01:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 01:09 stuneedsfood wrote:On September 03 2013 01:05 Netto. wrote:On September 03 2013 00:59 stuneedsfood wrote:
"I loved TvZ in WoL, but now? I really don’t like it. It’s always the same."
I want to post a .gif of a broodlord/infestor deathball. I think that will express my opinion much better than words. IT WAS EVERY SINGLE GAME. I think it was cool and balanced, just like terrans are thinking their 4M is cool and balanced now. I don't know what current TvZ stats are, but I doubt they come close to the lopsidedness of the TvZ stats of late 2012. I give it another month or so before I think Blizzard needs to step in and tone down the widow mine. I still think it should borrow a low slower on creep. It's a nerf without doing anything crazy.
I don't think tweaking the widow mine really adresses the problems. I mean, if it is imbalanced I agree, but that's not really what I think. Zergs can win and do win a lot against Terran, even if they may win slightly less currently.
What needs to be done is tweaks where Terrans just can and wants to play e.g. tanks instead of mines... or Mech instead of bio at all. Zerg can and wants to play roaches and hydras and broodlords and swarm hosts.
There need to be more units that are useful.
two blinding clouds breaking a siege line and 30marines per minute that counter every zerg style apart of melee with mass banelings and ultratransitions is what destroys the variety.
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On September 03 2013 01:45 snakeeyez wrote:
I agree with what he says about the metagame becoming stale then it gets boring to watch. He also made numerous comparisons to brood war and how the matchup had many interesting choices so you never knew what they were going to do. TvZ certainly does not have that right now.
Eh, I don't know. Did we see that many different strategies in bw?
TvP was mech (tank + vulture, goliath support with a couple of dropships)
TvT was mech (tank + vulture, goliath support with maybe half a dozen dropships)
TvZ was bio (marine, medic + science vessel and vultures in the lategame and few dropships)
Maybe some players also went mech in TvZ, but that was more because it was their style.
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All of SC2's issues are centered around AOE. Storms, mines, fungals. For casuals, it's discouraging to have the army you spent 15 minutes making disappear in 4 seconds. For pros, it gives the games a coinflippy feeling. The developers see tournament footage where the casters mark out over burrowed banes, sick fungals, etc.. and it's good for a cheap pop in the moment, but these things harm the game in general.
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On September 03 2013 01:52 jdsowa wrote:
All of SC2's issues are centered around AOE. Storms, mines, fungals. For casuals, it's discouraging to have the army you spent 15 minutes making disappear in 4 seconds. For pros, it gives the games a coinflippy feeling. The developers see tournament footage where the casters mark out over burrowed banes, sick fungals, etc.. and it's good for a cheap pop in the moment, but these things harm the game in general.
These things also come with the price that there are no long drawn out battles. Either way, the victor is decided after at most one minute.
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On September 03 2013 01:45 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 01:12 Plansix wrote:On September 03 2013 01:09 stuneedsfood wrote:On September 03 2013 01:05 Netto. wrote:On September 03 2013 00:59 stuneedsfood wrote:
"I loved TvZ in WoL, but now? I really don’t like it. It’s always the same."
I want to post a .gif of a broodlord/infestor deathball. I think that will express my opinion much better than words. IT WAS EVERY SINGLE GAME. I think it was cool and balanced, just like terrans are thinking their 4M is cool and balanced now. I don't know what current TvZ stats are, but I doubt they come close to the lopsidedness of the TvZ stats of late 2012. I give it another month or so before I think Blizzard needs to step in and tone down the widow mine. I still think it should borrow a low slower on creep. It's a nerf without doing anything crazy. I don't think tweaking the widow mine really adresses the problems. I mean, if it is imbalanced I agree, but that's not really what I think. Zergs can win and do win a lot against Terran, even if they may win slightly less currently. What needs to be done is tweaks where Terrans just can and wants to play e.g. tanks instead of mines... or Mech instead of bio at all. Zerg can and wants to play roaches and hydras and broodlords and swarm hosts. There need to be more units that are useful. two blinding clouds breaking a siege line and 30marines per minute that counter every zerg style apart of melee with mass banelings and ultratransitions is what destroys the variety.
That is a bigger issue and they need to make the mech units easier to get. It not a question of the units being good, its getting a new set of those units and getting them into position to do good stuff. It why MMM is so good, because they are ready to fight right when they get down the ramp. Its why people don't go stargate units in Protoss PvT as well, because stargates cost a lot and you need three to keep up with your warpgates. I think messing with the gas costs for parts of the factory based upgrades is a good place to start. Moving them out of the factory and tech lab so people can start the upgrades before the factory finishes. Making tanks siege faster with an upgrade(hell make it the upgrade that transforms hellions) and maybe SCVs can repair tanks faster when they are sieged up. Or medivacs can pick up one sieged tank.
But Blizzard needs to go kinda crazy on mech if they want to make it good. They need to make it efficient and make sense for a player. Right now, it is not streamlined at all and going MMM is just so much more stable.
On September 03 2013 01:56 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 01:52 jdsowa wrote:
All of SC2's issues are centered around AOE. Storms, mines, fungals. For casuals, it's discouraging to have the army you spent 15 minutes making disappear in 4 seconds. For pros, it gives the games a coinflippy feeling. The developers see tournament footage where the casters mark out over burrowed banes, sick fungals, etc.. and it's good for a cheap pop in the moment, but these things harm the game in general. These things also come with the price that there are no long drawn out battles. Either way, the victor is decided after at most one minute.
That does bug me, but then I remember how many zealots a blob of 30 3/3 marines can kill with medivac support. If that marine just died a little easier, we could ton down those AOEs and maybe slow down combat a bit.
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On September 03 2013 01:56 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 01:52 jdsowa wrote:
All of SC2's issues are centered around AOE. Storms, mines, fungals. For casuals, it's discouraging to have the army you spent 15 minutes making disappear in 4 seconds. For pros, it gives the games a coinflippy feeling. The developers see tournament footage where the casters mark out over burrowed banes, sick fungals, etc.. and it's good for a cheap pop in the moment, but these things harm the game in general. These things also come with the price that there are no long drawn out battles. Either way, the victor is decided after at most one minute.
AoE could also be slower, if the pace of battles became slower it would be really nice to see AoE have it's damage divided over a longer time. Would allow people to micro out of AoE before catastrophic damage is done and stuff.
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EPT
