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On September 03 2013 00:44 SinO[Ob] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 00:37 Xiphos wrote:On September 03 2013 00:33 SinO[Ob] wrote:On September 03 2013 00:12 ch33psh33p wrote:On September 03 2013 00:05 SinO[Ob] wrote:
I think ppl care yoo much about numbers. Just love and follow the game. Every game which is growing is a good thing for e-sport. Event if starcraft 2 is not in the front of the scene anymore, you cant just erase it like that :D. Too much ppl caring about it!
And MC awesome man! <3 This is the kind of complacency that led us to this point in the first place. First, talking like a hero is different than being a hero. If you love the game and try to make it better it will happen. My message is especially to make ppl think positively. Cause when you do smthg with your head full of "it can happen" it will go further than if you just whine cause this or this made another huge viewers number or try to prevent some cataclysm cause some ppl retire nor the game unbalanced right now. Theres a flow of negativity in SC2 scene that happen for no reason. This game will continue his way, I'm confident. Where have you been for the past while? And have you even read the OP yet? It is rather fatuous for one to contemplate this way with various recent events occurring. The ideology of irrational positivity only leads to severe disasters. One have to call it as he sees it so the "scene" can ameliorate to the fullest extent. Dude, if you solve your problems by crying for 10h before thats your problem, but I think you misunderstood my point. I didnt say to go blindly or put aside problems, but seeing them with the right mind set to solve those quicly.
The fans aren't crying but we are taking the necessary steps to bring the issues to Blizzard's hand. After all, they dictate everything in the SC2 scene.
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"I loved TvZ in WoL, but now? I really don’t like it. It’s always the same."
I want to post a .gif of a broodlord/infestor deathball. I think that will express my opinion much better than words. IT WAS EVERY SINGLE GAME.
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On September 03 2013 00:57 Jermstuddog wrote:
The only part i disagree with MC on is lategame PvZ is just as fucked as TvZ.
Voidrays with any splash support is disgustingly effective vs anything and everything zerg has at their disposal.
The only difference between this and the parade pushes we see is Protoss has to get there first.
I fucking hate muta/corruptor, there is no way to win it if you start stargates until when you see mutas.
no balance whine pls...
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Thanks for the translation  !
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On September 03 2013 00:44 stuneedsfood wrote:
He seems to wish we could go back to the TvZ of WoL. As far as I recall, most of us in late 2012 were agreed that the current state of TvZ was an absolute joke, the least dynamic and entertaining the match up has ever been (well, aside from WoL beta).
Anyone who wishes to return to the days of late 2012 TvZ is dead wrong, IMO.
The funny thing is that now widow mines are to zergs what fungal was to terrans back then. One mistake and you can lose half of your banelings or mutas. Just like one mistake and you got fungaled and run over by banelings or unsieged for 1 second to late and everything dies. As a terran I know how it felt and I can see why zergs feel that way now. But I think its important to see that MC isnt concerned about balance as but rather its the stale metagame and lack of variety in TvZ. I would argue that from a terran perspective TvP is even worse considering terrans have played pretty much the same way against protoss for years but atleast we get to see a exciting late game. I like the post by MC and im very happy to have him in our beloved sc2 scene.
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On September 03 2013 00:35 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 00:23 Aquila- wrote:
I have to say the words about TvZ are pretty biased towards Zerg. It is true that Zerg can only make one viable composition, but same goes for Terran, it is Biomine every single game. How do we solve this and the stagnant metagame in general? By making mech a viable strategy! That would also lead to the Zerg beeing able to use other units like Vipers more and we would have a more diverse playing and viewing experience. You forget that pro-gamers like to choose composition that is BETTER. So should we make mech viable as separate strategy we will be stuck on MMMM or mech (depending what will turn out better) most of time anyway. Making mech transitions in late-game viable IS the way to go IMO.
No, progamers actually try a lot of compositions, specially to prepare and surprise on BoX match ups. Mech is used sometimes on some maps to see if your opponent had practiced and knows how to handle it. Most part of the time, they do, and the terran player just gets crushed for being silly.
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On September 03 2013 00:44 stuneedsfood wrote:
He seems to wish we could go back to the TvZ of WoL. As far as I recall, most of us in late 2012 were agreed that the current state of TvZ was an absolute joke, the least dynamic and entertaining the match up has ever been (well, aside from WoL beta).
Anyone who wishes to return to the days of late 2012 TvZ is dead wrong, IMO.
what? It was the best matchup, just imbalanced. But you'd see Mech, Marine/tank. Some freaks like MKP would even mix in pure MMM. Endgame Terran would be to transition into Raven/BC armies. Zerg could go ling/infestor, ling/bling/muta, roach/hydra or roach/infestor in the midgame and could choose Broodlords or Ultralisks.
Noone wants to return to imbalance, but there was a ton of shit that could be done in TvZ and that worked to a certain degree. In HotS since Vipers shut down Tanks very hard and Zergs that don't go melee upgrades+mass banelings+mutas into ultra just get overrun by paradepush MMM. There is no variety, that's what MC says. That's why he says
It’s a really frustrating situation for Zerg progamers.
(and at least when I play Terran, I'm getting really frustrated as well when there is basically only one way to play. Yes Z and T can both allin as well. But is that all we want? Watch an allin or 5-10mins of paradepushing until one side makes a mistake? Everygame?)
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On September 03 2013 00:59 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 00:44 stuneedsfood wrote:
He seems to wish we could go back to the TvZ of WoL. As far as I recall, most of us in late 2012 were agreed that the current state of TvZ was an absolute joke, the least dynamic and entertaining the match up has ever been (well, aside from WoL beta).
Anyone who wishes to return to the days of late 2012 TvZ is dead wrong, IMO. The funny thing is that now widow mines are to zergs what fungal was to terrans back then. One mistake and you can lose half of your banelings or mutas. Just like one mistake and you got fungaled and run over by banelings or unsieged for 1 second to late and everything dies. As a terran I know how it felt and I can see why zergs feel that way now. But I think its important to see that MC isnt concerned about balance as but rather its the stale metagame and lack of variety in TvZ. I would argue that from a terran perspective TvP is even worse considering terrans have played pretty much the same way against protoss for years but atleast we get to see a exciting late game. I like the post by MC and im very happy to have him in our beloved sc2 scene.
Well, most matchups have 1 or maybe 2 standard unit compositions. That's just the way it is. It's not unique to TvZ.
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On September 03 2013 00:59 stuneedsfood wrote:
"I loved TvZ in WoL, but now? I really don’t like it. It’s always the same."
I want to post a .gif of a broodlord/infestor deathball. I think that will express my opinion much better than words. IT WAS EVERY SINGLE GAME.
I think it was cool and balanced, just like terrans are thinking their 4M is cool and balanced now.
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On September 03 2013 00:57 Jermstuddog wrote:
The only part i disagree with MC on is lategame PvZ is just as fucked as TvZ.
Voidrays with any splash support is disgustingly effective vs anything and everything zerg has at their disposal.
The only difference between this and the parade pushes we see is Protoss has to get there first.
And although MC did touch on PvT slightly, I feel it is in the same position is ZvT to a lesser degree.
He mentioned that it is ghost v HT wars which is true. However, even with minimal storms, the P can usually trade pretty evenly with 3-3 zealots and colo (even if you have vikings). But if 1-2 money storms hit, it is quick GG. Just like how zergs trade ok until BOOM, 2 big WM hits go off. It isn't as obvious now because Ts are picking up wins with SCV pulls and sometimes holding all-ins from P. Once Ps figure out the SCV pull timings (like Ts did for roach bane), I think we will see the same thing for PvT late game.
I think upgrades have a huge role. If marines stayed at 2-2, I think Z actually win out because zergs can trade evenly at that point and zerg have their 4th while terran only has 3rd and will eventually run dry (some terrans do take a fourth but usually after 3-3 is done and they are trading well). It is when 3-3 kicks in and Z is still on 2-2 that Ts still dominating. Same with PvT, one P hits 3-3 zealots, terrans have to kite a lot with their bio just to trade evenly with zealots and then when they are kiting, one HT slips through and it is GG.
I think something needs to be done so that the upgrades timings line up better for the various match ups.
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On September 03 2013 01:02 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 00:44 stuneedsfood wrote:
He seems to wish we could go back to the TvZ of WoL. As far as I recall, most of us in late 2012 were agreed that the current state of TvZ was an absolute joke, the least dynamic and entertaining the match up has ever been (well, aside from WoL beta).
Anyone who wishes to return to the days of late 2012 TvZ is dead wrong, IMO. what? It was the best matchup, just imbalanced. But you'd see Mech, Marine/tank. Some freaks like MKP would even mix in pure MMM. Endgame Terran would be to transition into Raven/BC armies. Zerg could go ling/infestor, ling/bling/muta, roach/hydra or roach/infestor in the midgame and could choose Broodlords or Ultralisks. Noone wants to return to imbalance, but there was a ton of shit that could be done in TvZ and that worked to a certain degree. In HotS since Vipers shut down Tanks very hard and Zergs that don't go melee upgrades+mass banelings+mutas into ultra just get overrun by paradepush MMM. There is no variety, that's what MC says. That's why he says (and at least when I play Terran, I'm getting really frustrated as well when there is basically only one way to play. Yes Z and T can both allin as well. But is that all we want? Watch an allin or 5-10mins of paradepushing until one side makes a mistake? Everygame?)
" It was the best matchup, just imbalanced."
Yeah, if its imbalanced, I probably wouldn't call it the best matchup.
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I am surprised MC didn't comment on the A-move units of toss and the boring state of pvt.
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On September 03 2013 01:05 Netto. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 00:59 stuneedsfood wrote:
"I loved TvZ in WoL, but now? I really don’t like it. It’s always the same."
I want to post a .gif of a broodlord/infestor deathball. I think that will express my opinion much better than words. IT WAS EVERY SINGLE GAME. I think it was cool and balanced, just like terrans are thinking their 4M is cool and balanced now.
I don't know what current TvZ stats are, but I doubt they come close to the lopsidedness of the TvZ stats of late 2012.
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On September 03 2013 01:06 Bareleon wrote:
I am surprised MC didn't comment on the A-move units of toss and the boring state of pvt.
he did .. not only in your exact words (the amove units part) .. but he mentioned how pvt is becoming stale .. re-read it again
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MC is totally right and I'm proud that finally someone adresses the issues in TvZ!
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On September 03 2013 01:09 stuneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 01:05 Netto. wrote:On September 03 2013 00:59 stuneedsfood wrote:
"I loved TvZ in WoL, but now? I really don’t like it. It’s always the same."
I want to post a .gif of a broodlord/infestor deathball. I think that will express my opinion much better than words. IT WAS EVERY SINGLE GAME. I think it was cool and balanced, just like terrans are thinking their 4M is cool and balanced now. I don't know what current TvZ stats are, but I doubt they come close to the lopsidedness of the TvZ stats of late 2012.
I give it another month or so before I think Blizzard needs to step in and tone down the widow mine. I still think it should borrow a low slower on creep. It's a nerf without doing anything crazy.
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well I'll probably play sc long after it dies...
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On September 03 2013 01:06 stuneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 01:02 Big J wrote:On September 03 2013 00:44 stuneedsfood wrote:
He seems to wish we could go back to the TvZ of WoL. As far as I recall, most of us in late 2012 were agreed that the current state of TvZ was an absolute joke, the least dynamic and entertaining the match up has ever been (well, aside from WoL beta).
Anyone who wishes to return to the days of late 2012 TvZ is dead wrong, IMO. what? It was the best matchup, just imbalanced. But you'd see Mech, Marine/tank. Some freaks like MKP would even mix in pure MMM. Endgame Terran would be to transition into Raven/BC armies. Zerg could go ling/infestor, ling/bling/muta, roach/hydra or roach/infestor in the midgame and could choose Broodlords or Ultralisks. Noone wants to return to imbalance, but there was a ton of shit that could be done in TvZ and that worked to a certain degree. In HotS since Vipers shut down Tanks very hard and Zergs that don't go melee upgrades+mass banelings+mutas into ultra just get overrun by paradepush MMM. There is no variety, that's what MC says. That's why he says It’s a really frustrating situation for Zerg progamers. (and at least when I play Terran, I'm getting really frustrated as well when there is basically only one way to play. Yes Z and T can both allin as well. But is that all we want? Watch an allin or 5-10mins of paradepushing until one side makes a mistake? Everygame?) " It was the best matchup, just imbalanced." Yeah, if its imbalanced, I probably wouldn't call it the best matchup.
Well, I'd rather watch 20 WoL TvZs with winrates that were like 40:60 at worst (usually rather 45:55) than watching Soultrain or die trying PvZ with 50:50 just once (though it was not THAAAT bad. You'd sometimes see other 2/3base allins as well).
But if you believe that TvZ wasn't more entertaing because it was less balanced than PvZ or TvP, then you are fully entitled to that opinion.
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On September 03 2013 00:50 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 00:44 stuneedsfood wrote:
He seems to wish we could go back to the TvZ of WoL. As far as I recall, most of us in late 2012 were agreed that the current state of TvZ was an absolute joke, the least dynamic and entertaining the match up has ever been (well, aside from WoL beta).
Anyone who wishes to return to the days of late 2012 TvZ is dead wrong, IMO. Try late 2011 TvZ. jjakji vs Leenock game 1 never forget!
Was it this awesome game that ended terribly with piou piou snipe?
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Spoot on about English professionalism. That is something people don't realize much.
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EPT
