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On September 02 2013 20:28 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 20:20 Vanadiel wrote:
He can probably play terran in offracen better than you'll ever do and understand SC2 better than anyone her, the fact that he talk about a match up he doesn't play in pro match means he is unbiased on this subject. "Terrans are basically immune to the roach attacks" "Terrans don’t even need to scout." "This allows Terrans to just send their boosted medivacs to harass. They don’t care if they lose it because it’s not risky at all" "Ultralisks -> meal for marauders, broodlords -> meal for vikings." So knowledgeable, so unbiased.
That MC zerg bias. The game totally isn't like this.
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My respect for MC is now at an all-time high. This should be added to required reading for pros, amateurs aspiring to be pros, people just wanting to be part of the e-sports industry in any aspect and last but not least for the fans of e-sports. The first part might not be as generally relevant as the second and third parts due to its specific focus on SC2 (aka LoL fans won't understand it or relate) but some parallels could still be drawn to the other games should they face stagnation due to imbalances.
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Would be cool if a media like TL or a korean website could run some short interviews with the WCS players regarding the current state of the game and gather everything in one piece. Blizzard loves data, let's produce some.
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I pretty much agree on what MC says, even though you can feel that the level in every big tournement is rising, it is still the same story in many match ups as described in the OP.
Thanks Terry the Intern 
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He is right in what he said about the current state of TvZ, but he should´ve mentioned that both sides are forced in to their compositions here. It´s not like Terran could pull out all sorts of funny strats - just a big design derp, caused by queens and larva injects on the z side and widow mines and medivac speed on the terran one.
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On September 02 2013 13:47 NoGasfOu wrote:
MC would be nothing if he has both personality and English but without the 390k under his belt. Nobody would remember him.
Personality is huge part of progamer. If he can do it right, he can get much more fans and exputure. Look at Dragon, without lieing he is pretty bad. But why so many know him and why his stream gets +2000 viewers?
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On September 02 2013 22:54 TeeTS wrote:
He is right in what he said about the current state of TvZ, but he should´ve mentioned that both sides are forced in to their compositions here. It´s not like Terran could pull out all sorts of funny strats - just a big design derp, caused by queens and larva injects on the z side and widow mines and medivac speed on the terran one.
I think he sort of did. The viability of mech has been an issue that pros and amateurs alike have been upset about because that's what gives Terran its variety of styles. Currently bio is just so superior in terms of cost, productivity and mobility that going mech seems just silly. The other issue is that if they make mech viable, suddenly Z don't have a decent way to respond to it (don't say roach/hydra because mines+tanks+thors is just rape to that comp). Since WoL people have wondered why T basically does not have to tech up in any matchup other than mirror while P and Z must constantly make tech adjustments for their compositions to be correct. The viability of mech and the fixing of ZvT are part of the same problem. If mech is made viable as an alternative to bio, it would mean major adjustments for both races and I think Blizzard doesn't want to acknowledge that this exists because it would mean a very major overhaul of both races and subsequently P as well because the other 2 races have been altered so drastically.
On September 02 2013 22:51 Thruth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 20:28 TheDwf wrote:On September 02 2013 20:20 Vanadiel wrote:
He can probably play terran in offracen better than you'll ever do and understand SC2 better than anyone her, the fact that he talk about a match up he doesn't play in pro match means he is unbiased on this subject. "Terrans are basically immune to the roach attacks" "Terrans don’t even need to scout." "This allows Terrans to just send their boosted medivacs to harass. They don’t care if they lose it because it’s not risky at all" "Ultralisks -> meal for marauders, broodlords -> meal for vikings." So knowledgeable, so unbiased. That MC zerg bias. The game totally isn't like this.
What complete illogical statements compounded by reinforcement numbers of those who agree. If a group of people massacre another group and the victims speak of their destruction, there are those who will paint their words as "biased" and therefore by some unknown force deemed invalid or something we shouldn't listen to. Sometimes things really are so badly out of balance that even speaking about them in an unbiased way might seem biased because of the existence of such imbalance.
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On September 02 2013 18:12 Lizarb wrote:
I'm just sad that JD's subpar ZvT made all this TvZ "is broken" talk happen, forcing Zerg players yet again to think that there is nothing they can change in how they play. ZvT is mainly in a bad state because Zerg players don't try something different. Scarlett did so much better vs. Bomber.
Fungal STILL stun locks units.
Blinding cloud isn't really used.
Muta is a super fast unit, hit the Terran base, don't throw 2/0 Muta at 2/2 marines with medivacs. (This is the main reason JD is 0-8 in ZvT finals.)
Try to use the swarm host for defense. Free units are good.
On bigger maps, nydus can bypass a huge distance.
I'm not saying all of these ideas will work, but not trying anything will not work either. And how easy do you think it will be as a Terran to guess what the Zerg does if you do the same thing every time?
While MC says that ultra just gets countered by marauders, and Broodlords by vikings, he forget to highlight that Zerg still can switch unit composition way faster than Terran. If you show that you intend on going ultras/Broodlords don't give the Terran 10+ mins to switch tech.
As I see it HotS mainly meant that its even harder to play now. Terran and Protoss was used to having to pick their engagements Zerg has to learn to be better at this now.
you also forgot that the tier 3 mentioned by MC is gas heavy .. and transitioning to other composition while being pressured is not easy .. not to mention to build a good army of tier 3 zergs needs a good amount of bases .. and most of the time terran can overpower anything with mmmm
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Blizzard gotta nerf English. It's way too hard to use to be a viable option for Korean pros.
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If T goes same composition every game, Z/P don't need to scout either.
T's would love to use other units besides MMMM, but those units are very situational and often times a mistake to produce.
"one big mistake on zerg's part costs them the game" .... well duh, that applies to every race.
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TERRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
I'm glad that MC wrote all of this, because it's exceptionally important. Especially the part about the aspiring pro-gamers. If the Korean pros attempted to learn more english, that'd go a long way into creating better storylines for us, and really helping to bring some of us fans who aren't really into the game anymore back.
I may not root for MC at tournaments, but I'll always want him to succeed as a person, because I think he's got it right, and there are so few people who have it right anymore.
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I salute you and MC!!!!!
I especially agree with MC's view of the current ZvT metagame - there is really no reason to go anything other than ling baneling mutalisk and focus all the efforts in winning the mid-game (i.e. the 12 -14 min mark). If you do great in that mid-game (e.g. killing a base of scvs without losing too many lings banelings), you usually win. But if you don't, then you will lose to 3-3 4M no matter you have ultralisks or broodlords or not.
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On September 02 2013 23:12 guN-viCe wrote:
If T goes same composition every game, Z/P don't need to scout either.
T's would love to use other units besides MMMM, but those units are very situational and often times a mistake to produce.
"one big mistake on zerg's part costs them the game" .... well duh, that applies to every race.
These statements imply a lack of understanding of the game's basic design and function.
T's composition might not change but they have variable timings and usages of the army that must be scouted or you will simply die. These exist within the bounds of their basic macro builds and variations in Z/P must be executed in order to stay even with the T economy and army production growth.
The only parallel between that and Z and P threatening T would be Z opening with a 6 pool or a P doing proxy 2 gate. Later than that, there is no way to threaten a T even though they have not had to vary their build or style in the slightest.
I think you're misinterpretting "big mistake" in the context that a progamer uses it. For us lower leagues, a "big mistake" is usually a complete loss of army or a complete misread of a timing push that results in an instant loss or a loss of bases/economy so great that the chance of recovery is nonexistent. For pros, a "big mistake" might be losing 10 banes to 1 mine shot or 6-8 mutas from 1 mine shot. These mistakes can be recovered from in lower leagues because the Terran might not know that they can instantly win from this happening. This is not the same when facing progamers. What they consider a "big mistake" would be a minor mishap to those of us who are not playing amongst the top 100 in the world.
This is not to be confused with "Terrans are lower skill at lower leagues and so the imbalance doesn't exist." Its still far easier for a T to blindly do a build with the expectation of being able to hold anything thrown at him no matter the tech or timing in TvZ. Its not even possible for a Z to do the same. Assume he goes 3 fast OC and you will die to a simple poke that was part of T's build anyways and doesn't cost him anything in terms of timing/tech/expansion-possibility. Assume he does not go for 3 fast OC and you will shoot yourself in the foot just because you wanted to be safe.
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On September 02 2013 22:51 ImperialFist wrote:
Like how fun is it to watch PvZ ZvZ and PvP, those match-ups are not what the casual viewer enjoy. Personally I love to play TvT and PvZ but I and everyone else except MC who is pretty much clueless know that TvZ is the staple of RTS e-sports.
that is why he is addressing tvz specifically since he knows its the forefront of esports
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@MC altho u pointed out some of the very reasons why so many (including me) love you (not just a SC2 keyboard monkey...but as a person) are 100% true, i can't help but feel a bit sad that it came down to an article like this. Indeed in my opinion everything u said is true.....sadly 
Let's hope for the best and thx for being awesome :D
I just hope in the future more top players come out and say their thoughts about balance and so on. If everyone shuts up..how can u expect blizzard to take action.
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On September 02 2013 21:50 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 21:43 Vanadiel wrote:On September 02 2013 20:28 TheDwf wrote:On September 02 2013 20:20 Vanadiel wrote:
He can probably play terran in offracen better than you'll ever do and understand SC2 better than anyone her, the fact that he talk about a match up he doesn't play in pro match means he is unbiased on this subject. "Terrans are basically immune to the roach attacks" "Terrans don’t even need to scout." "This allows Terrans to just send their boosted medivacs to harass. They don’t care if they lose it because it’s not risky at all" "Ultralisks -> meal for marauders, broodlords -> meal for vikings." So knowledgeable, so unbiased. Yet, all more or less true. But hey, it's only the most successful sc2 progammer, which lives and practice with terran likes MVP, he sure doesn't understand Terran match up and should learn from the teamliquid forum. All of those quotes are painfully simplistic or simply flat out wrong; but hey, since it's MC talking it must be the absolute truth and we should all kneel before him!
I find your comments such as losing drones mean nothing when zerg can just rebuild them with a round of drones are a lot more simplistic and wrong.
I would trust the guy who is a full time Pro playing at KR for one of the best teams in GSTL than just an obviously terran biased teamliquid forum user
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This discussion on balance has gone full bananas. The point isn't balance, it's entertaining and about getting stagnant, which are true. The reason isn't because Z can't deal with terran, the reason is because there is only one option for terran, therefore anyother Zerg unit composition is regarded as suboptimal.
It's not because MMMM is too strong compared to Mech, it is because Mech sucks balls. We could point out that MMMM is the jack of all trades, but master of everything, but mech is just the suckass of everything, so you can't really ask terrans to play something else because there is no goddamned way out of TvT to do it.
What you are seeing is basically TvP 2.0(i don't understand why MC doesn't point this, he thinks mutalingbling vs widowmines/mmm doesn´t involve micro or positional play ? wtf it is more micro intensive than PvT for sure)
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On September 02 2013 23:36 Godwrath wrote:
This discussion on balance has gone full bananas. The point isn't balance, it's entertaining and about getting stagnant, which are true. The reason isn't because Z can't deal with terran, the reason is because there is only one option for terran, therefore anyother Zerg unit composition is regarded as suboptimal.
It's not because MMMM is too strong compared to Mech, it is because Mech sucks balls. We could point out that MMMM is the jack of all trades, but master of everything, but mech is just the suckass of everything, so you can't really ask terrans to play something else because there is no goddamned way out of TvT to do it.
What you are seeing is basically TvP 2.0(i don't understand why MC doesn't point this, he thinks mutalingbling vs widowmines/mmm doesn´t involve micro or positional play ? wtf it is more micro intensive than PvT for sure)
Mech has always been weak, even in WoL, with the exception of a few timings, but that never dragged TvZ down during late 2011 and early 2012. And Terran most definitely does not have just one option. Like I said previously, there's tons of bio and bionic variations that can be played and made work. What you ARE right about however, is that 4M is by far the strongest in almost every situation, meaning there's no incentive to do much else, other than maybe a 2rax every now and again to keep your opponents honest.
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On September 02 2013 22:56 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 13:47 NoGasfOu wrote:
MC would be nothing if he has both personality and English but without the 390k under his belt. Nobody would remember him. Personality is huge part of progamer. If he can do it right, he can get much more fans and exputure. Look at Dragon, without lieing he is pretty bad. But why so many know him and why his stream gets +2000 viewers?
The term "Personality" in has changed since release sc2. The game sc2 has no personality, it looks always the same. In wc3 you can see the players personality within the game (because everyone world class player has/had a different style), what a difference.. and this is the best difference between wc3 and sc2.
If you see a game without scoreboard, you can detect easily that Grubby/Moon/Lyn/ToD/TeD/... played this game (wc3). In sc2 absolutely nothing (maybe stephano), but we need personalities, so we need to talk english with them (progamer) ...
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EPT
