For the past few weeks I've been working on a site that tracks viewer numbers for starcraft 2 Twitch streams and turns them into graphs, rankings, et cetera. I got it more or less finished just in time for the WCS Season 2 finals weekend, and since there's been some discussion about how many viewers these events would get I though that's be a nice opportunity to announce the site and give an example of the kind of things it does at the same time ^^
Furthermore the site also tracks player streams (example) and teams (example) and gives a comprehensive overview of how stream viewership is doing in comparison to earlier weeks and such, so hopefully it can be useful for individual streamers as well.
The EU stream had the most viewers by far, topping out at 78k during the grand final but reaching 65k earlier during the duckdeok vs Grubby game.
While the EU stream viewership climbed relatively slowly to reach strong numbers during the last few games of the day, the NA stream was more consistent, quickly reaching a relatively high level and staying at that for the remainder of the day.
As expected, overall averages were lower than for previous season's WCS finals, which can probably be attributed to The International 3's finals being on at the same time. Averages for the NA and streams were only slightly lower than for previous season's finals though, in spite of competition from The International 3.
EU had it worse with 45k average on day 2 compared to 80k for season 1's final day. This could perhaps be attributed to the fact that this season, the final two were Korean, while in Season 1 fan favourite Stephano fought for the title.
Of course, the Korean championship is broadcast on other platforms than Twitch and as such it is impossible to obtain accurate viewer numbers for it.
On August 13 2013 05:55 revel8 wrote: Number breakdown
WCS EU Season 1 Day 1 average 55.0k peak unknown WCS EU Season 1 Day 2 average 80.5k peak 128k
WCS EU Season 2 Day 1 average 45.1k peak 65.2k WCS EU Season 2 Day 2 average 49.9k peak 78.0k
WCS AM Season 1 Day 1 average 35.4k peak unknown WCS AM Season 1 Day 2 average 44.0k peak 65k
WCS AM Season 2 Day 1 average 35.5k peak 46.7k WCS AM Season 2 Day 2 average 43.3k peak 51.7k
I hope these numbers are of use to some of you and contribute to having better discussions about these things. Feel free to let me know if you have any feedback on the site or would like to see some specific graphs or overviews!
Some graphs (times in CEST, click the graphs for expanded info and timezone selector):
Nice, thanks for making the graphs. I'd like to point out that the LR, after Grubby lost, was filled with people predicting a 15k dip in view numbers. I'm glad to see that such a dip happens after most every series during the down-time, and it went up by nearly 15k afterwards for the finals.
This might be a lesson for tournament organizers. Down-time, as it is handled now, leads to reduced viewer numbers. If you'd retain more of the viewers by reducing down-time, the peaks might be higher.
eu finals last season just had "better" players or lets just say more diverse players, that and the dota thing combined probably explain some of the viewer numbers for eu. surprisingly low numbers for wcs am. i think they did a great job and besides the nasl sound guy with some issues it was a great event and the players in the top8 were pretty good.
On August 12 2013 23:03 Random_0 wrote: What about the WCS Korea stream? I'd be interested in seeing how those numbers compare to these?
It's kinda hard to tell how many they actually got considering gom numbers are hidden. I'm sure they are lower without the gom numbers, well maybe with the korean stream they are higher.
On August 12 2013 22:55 KaiserKieran wrote: Whats the highest viewership a live starcraft game has ever obtained?
I think probably finals stage of first HoTS mlg (~150k). Maybe look back at the great late 2011 early 2012 period? Didn't pay too much attention back then tho. And as always, hard to compare with factual viewership of kr events. Osl, GSL and PL finals most prolly beat those numbers.
Another example of Foreigners > Highest level of play in terms of viewership.
I think if SC2 wants to genereate as much viewers as possible they have to make EU foreigner exclusive. Maybe, because Korean WCS is way harder they could just cut WCS NA (besides 1 or 2 players the NA scene is just loughable) and put this money to korea to balance the higher skill requirments.
Decent numbers considering the competition. Production and games during all three events were great so I wouldn't be surprised if we see viewer count trending up for future events. Very excited about the future.
On August 12 2013 22:55 KaiserKieran wrote: Whats the highest viewership a live starcraft game has ever obtained?
I think probably finals stage of first HoTS mlg (~150k). Maybe look back at the great late 2011 early 2012 period? Didn't pay too much attention back then tho. And as always, hard to compare with factual viewership of kr events. Osl, GSL and PL finals most prolly beat those numbers.
I remember the HDH Beta Invitationals (Wings of Liberty Beta, grand finals between White-Ra and Idra) had around 180k on the stream.
Or you can just leave the stream open to support the game you love regardless of whether you enjoy the games or not, even if you're watching TI3 on your eventual other screen Also it's pointless to compare nowadays numbers to beta/early sc2 events'. It's one thing to have a high peak because the game is new, but now that most people found the game too hard for them and are not playing it, it's normal to have them not watching anymore either. Maybe one day sc2 will stop being compared to DotA likes, it's not the same player base, not the same public. Having a 80K peak on TI3's week end is really not bad. It would maybe increase if people actually watched the games instead of bitching about balance and viewership numbers.
... pls stop using peak numbers and use average viewer numbers. I already made a post in the EU thread, but to sum it up, every day of WCS EU/NA but NA day 2 had over 34% less viewers than in season 1. I would refrain from calling it "strong" numbers.
Funny thing is, for all the hate we (me included!) dropped at Blizzard for cross-scheduling with TI3, in the end it might have been good for WCS - here's why:
People often miss SC2 events, because they are busy with their life. Even if it's an important event, they may say "gonna have to VOD it later". However, having TI3 meant a lot more potential viewers would make sure to be free to watch on that day, which actually creates better opportunity for watching WCS.
Should have thought about that earlier. Anyway, grats WCS, those are excellent numbers, all factors considered.
Not surprising given Blizzard's support of their own leagues. Look at Valve and Riot dumping lots of money into their leagues, anyone see Blizzard doing the same? Nope.
Either a change is coming, or SC2 is going, no other options for eSports companies at this point when such big name games pull much much larger numbers and money.
Personally I tried to watch TI3 and WCS EU, but it was sort of tiring. So I don't blame anyone who prefered watching TI3, but WCS EU was very much worth watching. Greatest flair there imo. Also those cute emotions from the winner.
Some reasons why it didn't reach a higher viewer peak: - Too much stuff going on that weekend. - Lots of unavoidable PvP matches, which luckily weren't as bad as their reputation. - Lack of a powerful foreigner, but then again Grubby being so strong should've evened that out. Specially as he's so likeable for most people.
On August 12 2013 23:09 USvBleakill wrote: Another example of Foreigners > Highest level of play in terms of viewership.
I think if SC2 wants to genereate as much viewers as possible they have to make EU foreigner exclusive. Maybe, because Korean WCS is way harder they could just cut WCS NA (besides 1 or 2 players the NA scene is just loughable) and put this money to korea to balance the higher skill requirments.
You know you need to account for the season finals too, right? It's ridiculous to try to create a temporary bump in the EU numbers just to watch the season finals plummet because nobody wants to watch foreigners get roflstomped by Koreans.
Similar to the balance discussions, I think a lot of this just requires some patience and continued exposure to Korean competition. The distance is narrowing between Koreans and foreigners as they compete more, with more foreigners going to the season 2 finals than season 1.
On August 12 2013 23:37 Chronald wrote: Numbers dropping for everyone across the board.
Not surprising given Blizzard's support of their own leagues. Look at Valve and Riot dumping lots of money into their leagues, anyone see Blizzard doing the same? Nope.
Either a change is coming, or SC2 is going, no other options for eSports companies at this point when such big name games pull much much larger numbers and money.
Dude you realize we're talking about wcs? Way to be an ignorant shit stirring whore.
On August 12 2013 23:38 Crytash wrote: No they are not. A drop of 34% average viewership is NOT excellent even with all the factors considered.
Maybe not but we don't know how much of that is due to TI3. It's unlikely Blizzard will try to pull another scheduling like this so a good portion of viewer lost to event-exhaustion may return.
I will not start a discussion about the decission of the WCS scheduling, i agree with TB there. There is more to it than scheduling, but i think it had def. an impact.
As for OP btw. love your site, would you consider doing that for other games (lol, dota2,WoT) as well?
On August 12 2013 23:29 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: Wcs eu finals 2012: 125k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 1: 80k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 2: 78k
Dropping? ... -_-
Soe said it best: "the international is just better than every other tournament."
Exactly, it's made by a professional company who knows what they're doing. They've hyped it up for a long time, and it's on a big stage. Also, it's once a year, so that automatically gives it more meaning. Here is a picture of their numbers:
I couldn't really watch because of The Internation who was the most epic esport tournament ever.
But for the few times I could have watch WCS EU or AM, the production was quite good (congratz to NASL after this terrible MLG production you did very well), and the viewers numbers are for me really high.
I didn't expect so much viewers considering TI3 was going on AND the 3 finals was on same days (really tiring to catch all even if you see only WCS tournaments).
If production and players are decent I expect 90k viewers at WCS season finals.
On August 12 2013 23:48 Esoterikk wrote: Oh look the daily Sc2 is dying thread, don't even know why I come to this subforum anymore.
Viewers numbers were fine, games were fun etc if you hate Sc2 so much there's the door and all that.
I don't see anyone saying that SC2 is dying in this thread? It's just a summary of numbers for the WCS event streams over the weekend. In all honesty I thought the numbers were pretty good considering TI3 was the same weekend and the viewership for all 3 WCS events was likely somewhat diminished because I doubt anyone watched all three WCS events. For instance, if I got up super early to watch the European event you can bet I'm not going to also be watching the AM event. Obviously SC2 numbers for WCS are going to be smaller than Dota 2's yearly massive competition, I don't think anyone is translating that into SC2 is dying here though. Don't be so negative mate.
On August 12 2013 23:48 Esoterikk wrote: Oh look the daily Sc2 is dying thread, don't even know why I come to this subforum anymore.
Viewers numbers were fine, games were fun etc if you hate Sc2 so much there's the door and all that.
I don't see anyone saying that SC2 is dying in this thread? It's just a summary of numbers for the WCS event streams over the weekend. In all honesty I thought the numbers were pretty good considering TI3 was the same weekend and the viewership for all 3 WCS events was likely somewhat diminished because I doubt anyone watched all three WCS events. For instance, if I got up super early to watch the European event you can bet I'm not going to also be watching the AM event. Obviously SC2 numbers for WCS are going to be smaller than Dota 2's yearly massive competition, I don't think anyone is translating that into SC2 is dying here though. Don't be so negative mate.
I fully agree numbers were fine even said it in my post. The OP itself was good but I don't know if we are reading the same thread but there is already a lot of "sc2 ded gaem" being posted and it's only going to get much worse as this thread gets bigger. Prove me wrong TLers.
On August 12 2013 23:29 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: Wcs eu finals 2012: 125k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 1: 80k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 2: 78k
Dropping? ... -_-
Soe said it best: "the international is just better than every other tournament."
Exactly, it's made by a professional company who knows what they're doing. They've hyped it up for a long time, and it's on a big stage. Also, it's once a year, so that automatically gives it more meaning. Here is a picture of their numbers:
the "once a year" part in the main thing here. You can't compare TI to those season finals. Blizzcon numbers will tale the story here. Because TI is the absolute highlight of the Dota2 year (as far as I understood) while this were regular season games. Considering the huge satuation of SC2 content this weekend, the number are pretty fine. We'll just have to wait for the 2013 WCS finals at Blizzcon to make a real comparison.
On August 12 2013 23:29 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: Wcs eu finals 2012: 125k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 1: 80k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 2: 78k
Dropping? ... -_-
Soe said it best: "the international is just better than every other tournament."
Exactly, it's made by a professional company who knows what they're doing. They've hyped it up for a long time, and it's on a big stage. Also, it's once a year, so that automatically gives it more meaning. Here is a picture of their numbers:
the "once a year" part in the main thing here. You can't compare TI to those season finals. Blizzcon numbers will tale the story here. Because TI is the absolute highlight of the Dota2 year (as far as I understood) while this were regular season games. Considering the huge satuation of SC2 content this weekend, the number are pretty fine. We'll just have to wait for the 2013 WCS finals at Blizzcon to make a real comparison.
You can never compare Sc2 numbers to Dota or LoL.Dota 2/LoL are free to play team games with cosmetic rewards to hook people. Sc2 is a pay to play single player game with no real reward for playing other than bettering yourself. Only ignorant people think comparing the numbers between the two means anything without proper context.
That being said, Tennis isn't dying because the superbowl is popular.
On August 12 2013 23:29 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: Wcs eu finals 2012: 125k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 1: 80k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 2: 78k
Dropping? ... -_-
Soe said it best: "the international is just better than every other tournament."
Exactly, it's made by a professional company who knows what they're doing. They've hyped it up for a long time, and it's on a big stage. Also, it's once a year, so that automatically gives it more meaning. Here is a picture of their numbers:
where do you get those chinese streamnumbers? i like how 5,5k people are watching badminton. would love to see that actually
On August 12 2013 23:03 Random_0 wrote: What about the WCS Korea stream? I'd be interested in seeing how those numbers compare to these?
Unfortunately the beginning of the stream was missed due to an ill-timed crash, but the numbers seem comparable to EU day 1. Of course this is only Twitch viewers, the real number should be way higher if you take people watching via the GOM player or on Korean TV into account.
On August 12 2013 23:34 Crytash wrote: ... pls stop using peak numbers and use average viewer numbers. I already made a post in the EU thread, but to sum it up, every day of WCS EU/NA but NA day 2 had over 34% less viewers than in season 1. I would refrain from calling it "strong" numbers.
I only used the peak number in the topic title, apart from that I mentioned averages
On August 12 2013 23:40 coverpunch wrote: OP needs to label the horizontal axis please.
Fair point. Unfortunately the software package I use (Highcharts) makes this hard to do accurately with the way I'm gathering the numbers (intervals are not all equal length), so I'm still trying to figure out how to do this.
On August 12 2013 23:45 Crytash wrote: As for OP btw. love your site, would you consider doing that for other games (lol, dota2,WoT) as well?
Would certainly be possible, in theory you could track everything on Twitch and if TL lists events you could track events as well (or if some other site does so, the scripts could be adapted). For now I'm focusing on Starcraft 2 only though, as it's the only game I have a personal interest in and I'd like to create a stable software platform and see how people respond to what I currently have before considering expansion.
To be honest this tool is perfect i already love it the way it is. Trust me, if you go into other esports this will be huge and could basically be a groundbreaking website.
no korean Eu finals...... no pvp and finale will top 120 k and more easily..... was good games but still ... this is not eu finale this is korean finale in eu ....
On August 13 2013 00:58 Sc2Invader wrote: Got a question. Probably a stupid one. Are these numbers just for the official main stream or also for the divided parts in several languages?
All non-English streams are included as well! See here for example for a detailed breakdown.
On August 12 2013 23:29 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: Wcs eu finals 2012: 125k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 1: 80k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 2: 78k
Dropping? ... -_-
Soe said it best: "the international is just better than every other tournament."
Exactly, it's made by a professional company who knows what they're doing. They've hyped it up for a long time, and it's on a big stage. Also, it's once a year, so that automatically gives it more meaning. Here is a picture of their numbers:
I think you forgot the russian streams :D .
But btt :
Hey isnt it great that so many people like to watch e-sports ?! I think the numbers are great for both events (wcs / ti3). Lets just celebrate the greatness of esports. Yeah SC2 is not the most watched esport anymore. But so what .. ?
As long as esports grows as a whole, everyone will profit in the end.
Its was a great weekend, with great games, from great athletes, and with nearly no sleep for me, but i am happy.
On August 12 2013 23:29 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: Wcs eu finals 2012: 125k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 1: 80k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 2: 78k
Dropping? ... -_-
Wcs eu finals 2012: Once a year Wcs eu finals 2013 season 1: Once a season Wcs eu finals 2013 season 2: Once a season and against TI3.
So no, it not dropping.
SC2 seems fine. The finals will be pretty good in two weeks and I am sure Blizzcon will be a blow out.
This are peak viewers and The International 3 had not much to do with the WCS EU finals. The last match started 6PM german time, TI3 started at 9PM iirc.
On August 12 2013 23:29 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: Wcs eu finals 2012: 125k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 1: 80k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 2: 78k
Dropping? ... -_-
Soe said it best: "the international is just better than every other tournament."
Exactly, it's made by a professional company who knows what they're doing. They've hyped it up for a long time, and it's on a big stage. Also, it's once a year, so that automatically gives it more meaning. Here is a picture of their numbers:
I think you forgot the russian streams :D .
But btt :
Hey isnt it great that so many people like to watch e-sports ?! I think the numbers are great for both events (wcs / ti3). Lets just celebrate the greatness of esports. Yeah SC2 is not the most watched esport anymore. But so what .. ?
As long as esports grows as a whole, everyone will profit in the end.
Its was a great weekend, with great games, from great athletes, and with nearly no sleep for me, but i am happy.
And i hope you all will be, too.
Yeah, once a year event that has been hyped for 6 months with tons of build up and in game hype compaired to the second season of a year league. Guess what? Dota 2 isn't putting up those numbers again for another 12 months.
On August 12 2013 23:29 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: Wcs eu finals 2012: 125k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 1: 80k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 2: 78k
Dropping? ... -_-
Wcs eu finals 2012: Once a year Wcs eu finals 2013 season 1: Once a season Wcs eu finals 2013 season 2: Once a season and against TI3.
So no, it not dropping.
SC2 seems fine. The finals will be pretty good in two weeks and I am sure Blizzcon will be a blow out.
This are peak viewers and The International 3 had not much to do with the WCS EU finals. The last match started 6PM german time, TI3 started at 9PM iirc.
TI3 doesn't matter that much in the long term for any of the regions, just for that weekend. It will be 12 months before any Dota 2 event gets anything near those numbers again. WCS finals as Blizzcon will also be huge. This is a non-issue.
On August 12 2013 23:29 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: Wcs eu finals 2012: 125k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 1: 80k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 2: 78k
Dropping? ... -_-
WCS EU 2012 was a once per year affair.
Also your WCS EU 2013 S1 numbers are way low (it was definitely over 100k for Steph vs MVP finals).
These numbers were way, way better than the doomsayers predicted - I mean with Korean vs Korean finals and TI3 (yes, TI3 matters, normal people don't stay awake for 48 hours, if they watch TI3 they're sleeping during WCS) these were pretty great numbers.
People should stop focusing so much on moba games and what numbers they are getting, and instead worry about our own community and game. If I run a 3 star restaurant I don't look at what the guys over at McDonalds are doing even though they are much popular.
On August 12 2013 23:29 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: Wcs eu finals 2012: 125k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 1: 80k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 2: 78k
Dropping? ... -_-
Wcs eu finals 2012: Once a year Wcs eu finals 2013 season 1: Once a season Wcs eu finals 2013 season 2: Once a season and against TI3.
So no, it not dropping.
SC2 seems fine. The finals will be pretty good in two weeks and I am sure Blizzcon will be a blow out.
This are peak viewers and The International 3 had not much to do with the WCS EU finals. The last match started 6PM german time, TI3 started at 9PM iirc.
some people dont want to spend 10+ hours in front of a pc and watching esports. so they are choosing one event to watch. would they have been on same time the effect would have been much bigger though.
On August 13 2013 01:09 Eury wrote: People should stop focusing so much on moba games and what numbers they are getting, and instead worry about our own community and game. If I run a 3 star restaurant I don't look at what the guys over at McDonalds are doing even though they are much popular.
On August 13 2013 01:09 Eury wrote: People should stop focusing so much on moba games and what numbers they are getting, and instead worry about our own community and game. If I run a 3 star restaurant I don't look at what the guys over at McDonalds are doing even though they are much popular.
It will pass. I don't know why people get so bent out of shape about a game putting up great numbers for a single weekend. A lot of people watch America Idol, but people didn't throw up their hands not stop making other shows.
On August 13 2013 01:09 Eury wrote: People should stop focusing so much on moba games and what numbers they are getting, and instead worry about our own community and game. If I run a 3 star restaurant I don't look at what the guys over at McDonalds are doing even though they are much popular.
This is on so many level wrong and insulting, that i am not sure if you troll or realy think that way.
I think this is awesome for e-Sports. There were consistently 10k-20k+ viewers every day for the premier league for WCS in EU/NA and I would assume close numbers or more for KR. On top of that SC2 garnered 60-80k viewers for the finals weekend. That's a great consistent base for a league type of tournament with multiple seasons, group stages, and finals days.
The DOTA2 International was a one weekend event that really showed the strength of number with (it looks like) over a million viewers. This is incredible with people all around the world watching.
Combine those two with the weekly LCS matches in NA/EU that get over 100k viewers. I'm sure there's overlap among the three games but still, that's a ton of people watching e-Sports. There's a big weekend for LCS coming up in LoL and then there's the Global Finals coming up as well.
ESports is healthy and I am a supporter of all games. I started off my eSports involvement with CS 1.6, SC:BW, SC2, DOTA, DOTA2, and now LoL. CS 1.6 used to be huge with close to 100k viewers for CPL, IEM, etc., but now we can get over 100k viewers on a weekly basis. That's incredible!! And with over a million viewers for a special e-Sports weekend, that's unheard of. I'm excited for the growth of eSports in general with these numbers. That's great for the companies that have invested in ads and supporting eSports, and there's great potential for more.
On August 13 2013 01:09 Eury wrote: People should stop focusing so much on moba games and what numbers they are getting, and instead worry about our own community and game. If I run a 3 star restaurant I don't look at what the guys over at McDonalds are doing even though they are much popular.
This is on so many level wrong and insulting, that i am not sure if you troll or realy think that way.
well that quote sums it up quite perfectly, without an x-axis it is really hard to obtain information from this. it is much more informative if you put times in CEST, KST and EDT there just to see which region might be watching!
Honestly the numbers were higher than I was expecting... really good to see. SC2 most certainly is not dying in any sense of the word, no matter how bipolar the scene can be
I thought the numbers were better than expected and didn't really see much of a dip from going against TI3. Though really only wcs AM went against it and it was getting 40k which is around what I'd expect with even no TI3 on. I myself watched wcs and only watched 1 1/2 games of dota the entire international. Sadly, the two games I saw were the huge throws by throwfu and orange.
On August 13 2013 01:09 Eury wrote: People should stop focusing so much on moba games and what numbers they are getting, and instead worry about our own community and game. If I run a 3 star restaurant I don't look at what the guys over at McDonalds are doing even though they are much popular.
This is on so many level wrong and insulting, that i am not sure if you troll or realy think that way.
What are you talking about?
Go troll someone else. I will not talk about the complexity difference of a team game vs single player game.
On August 13 2013 01:09 Eury wrote: People should stop focusing so much on moba games and what numbers they are getting, and instead worry about our own community and game. If I run a 3 star restaurant I don't look at what the guys over at McDonalds are doing even though they are much popular.
This is on so many level wrong and insulting, that i am not sure if you troll or realy think that way.
What are you talking about?
Go troll someone else. I will not talk about the complexity difference of a team game vs single player game.
On August 13 2013 01:09 Eury wrote: People should stop focusing so much on moba games and what numbers they are getting, and instead worry about our own community and game. If I run a 3 star restaurant I don't look at what the guys over at McDonalds are doing even though they are much popular.
This is on so many level wrong and insulting, that i am not sure if you troll or realy think that way.
What are you talking about?
Go troll someone else. I will not talk about the complexity difference of a team game vs single player game.
You seem confused Crytash
Yeah, I am not really sure what he is talking about. I think Eury insulted...someone? I am not sure who, though.
On August 13 2013 01:09 Eury wrote: People should stop focusing so much on moba games and what numbers they are getting, and instead worry about our own community and game. If I run a 3 star restaurant I don't look at what the guys over at McDonalds are doing even though they are much popular.
Because Starcraft is intrinsically superior to moba games!! A more accurate analogy is a hipster vegan restaurant that no one attends because it is too obnoxious getting less traffic than the restaurant across the street and attributing said lack of traffic to the moral/cultural/intellectual inferiority of diners rather than taking a look in the mirror.
On August 13 2013 01:09 Eury wrote: People should stop focusing so much on moba games and what numbers they are getting, and instead worry about our own community and game. If I run a 3 star restaurant I don't look at what the guys over at McDonalds are doing even though they are much popular.
This is on so many level wrong and insulting, that i am not sure if you troll or realy think that way.
What are you talking about?
Go troll someone else. I will not talk about the complexity difference of a team game vs single player game.
You seem confused Crytash
Yeah, I am not really sure what he is talking about. I think Eury insulted...someone? I am not sure who, though.
Comparing Dota 2 with MC Donalds (as in cheap food, bad working envrioment etc. pp.) is a clear insult to a whole community.
edit: you see the post two above? That comment was only written becouse of Eury s post. This will could evolve to a flame/troll thread only becouse he had to use such a bad metaphor
On August 13 2013 01:09 Eury wrote: People should stop focusing so much on moba games and what numbers they are getting, and instead worry about our own community and game. If I run a 3 star restaurant I don't look at what the guys over at McDonalds are doing even though they are much popular.
This is on so many level wrong and insulting, that i am not sure if you troll or realy think that way.
What are you talking about?
Go troll someone else. I will not talk about the complexity difference of a team game vs single player game.
You seem confused Crytash
Yeah, I am not really sure what he is talking about. I think Eury insulted...someone? I am not sure who, though.
Comparing Dota 2 with MC Donalds (as in cheap food, bad working envrioment etc. pp.) is a clear insult to a whole community.
All right, clearly you read into that to much, he didn't want to shit on that community. He was pointing out that it had high sales numbers, like Dota 2, but that the other estaurant shouldn't pay attention to their sales numbers and just focus on themselves.
On August 13 2013 01:09 Eury wrote: People should stop focusing so much on moba games and what numbers they are getting, and instead worry about our own community and game. If I run a 3 star restaurant I don't look at what the guys over at McDonalds are doing even though they are much popular.
This is on so many level wrong and insulting, that i am not sure if you troll or realy think that way.
What are you talking about?
Go troll someone else. I will not talk about the complexity difference of a team game vs single player game.
You seem confused Crytash
Yeah, I am not really sure what he is talking about. I think Eury insulted...someone? I am not sure who, though.
Comparing Dota 2 with MC Donalds (as in cheap food, bad working envrioment etc. pp.) is a clear insult to a whole community.
What do you have against McDonalds? At least the swedish branch is just fine for fast food and my point was largely regarding its popularity, but sure fast food tend to also be cheaper and quicker to get than some high end restaurant food.Moba games are also cheaper than SC 2 and easier to get into.
On August 13 2013 01:09 Eury wrote: People should stop focusing so much on moba games and what numbers they are getting, and instead worry about our own community and game. If I run a 3 star restaurant I don't look at what the guys over at McDonalds are doing even though they are much popular.
This is on so many level wrong and insulting, that i am not sure if you troll or realy think that way.
What are you talking about?
Go troll someone else. I will not talk about the complexity difference of a team game vs single player game.
You seem confused Crytash
Yeah, I am not really sure what he is talking about. I think Eury insulted...someone? I am not sure who, though.
Comparing Dota 2 with MC Donalds (as in cheap food, bad working envrioment etc. pp.) is a clear insult to a whole community.
All right, clearly you read into that to much, he didn't want to shit on that community. He was pointing out that it had high sales numbers, like Dota 2, but that the other estaurant shouldn't pay attention to their sales numbers and just focus on themselves.
I feel that the hipster/vegan metaphor would fit that as well, wouldn't it? And why is the Sc2 the "high class" restaurant and not just any restaurant? This is not going anywhere for you, just saying.
On August 13 2013 01:09 Eury wrote: People should stop focusing so much on moba games and what numbers they are getting, and instead worry about our own community and game. If I run a 3 star restaurant I don't look at what the guys over at McDonalds are doing even though they are much popular.
This is on so many level wrong and insulting, that i am not sure if you troll or realy think that way.
What are you talking about?
Go troll someone else. I will not talk about the complexity difference of a team game vs single player game.
You seem confused Crytash
Yeah, I am not really sure what he is talking about. I think Eury insulted...someone? I am not sure who, though.
Comparing Dota 2 with MC Donalds (as in cheap food, bad working envrioment etc. pp.) is a clear insult to a whole community.
Or you just don't like McDonalds... Why are you insulting them ? Apologize now !
Turns out the world didn't end on 11th of August, as it was predicted by some big eSports figures.
Eury didn't insult anyone. Basically Crytash is claiming that SC2 is 30% less popular than it was last year, which strikes me as complete rubbish. You would really need an actuary to look at and crunch all the different statistics:
What % of SC2 players: watch DOTA2 would watch DOTA2 over SC2 would not watch a PvP final would not watch a Korean vs Korean final are fans of Grubby would not watch the finals if Grubby were not in it are motivated to watch a tournament by the amount of prize $ given out like husky or don't like husky will switch to TI3 if there are sound issues with SC2 *cough cough ahem* are 50/50 on DOTA2 and SC2 and will watch both tournies are more interested in TI3 more than SC2 edit: what % don't like WCS what % only watch the GSL what % only watch European players what % only watch NA players what % of fans live in what timezone total unique viewers and on and on and on
what % of DOTA 2 players: only signed on for the weekend to watch TI3 decided to check out SC2 while on their comps in tourney-watching mode decided they hate SC2 decided they like SC2 decided to tell a friend about SC2 own SC2 in the first place had never heard of SC2 before are going to stop watching the TI3 at any point due to teams losing/production/hours of day or night/to make a hotpocket are not interested in SC2 more than DOTA2 edit: what % will only watch a MOBA what % will only play a MOBA what % of fans are located in what timezones what % of fans are unhappy with a current patch what % of fans didn't watch because their other 4+ friends weren't around to watch it with what % will watch TI3 alone total unique viewers and on and on and on
The fact is we just don't have enough of these metrics to really point at what is going on here. All I know is that as long as 78k people care enough about WCS EU to poke their heads in and see what's up, we're doing just fine.
Let's face it, these were only Ro8's. These weren't Ro32's with Innovation, Maru, Flash, Soulkey, and Rain flown in. Imagine the kind of numbers an event like that would garner, especially if hyped beforehand and broadcasted at a good time for the US and Europe to watch simultaneously.
Poll: Do you think we have enough information to determine if SC2 is dying?
No (17)
52%
Yes (14)
42%
Maybe (2)
6%
33 total votes
Your vote: Do you think we have enough information to determine if SC2 is dying?
On August 12 2013 23:09 USvBleakill wrote: Another example of Foreigners > Highest level of play in terms of viewership.
I think if SC2 wants to genereate as much viewers as possible they have to make EU foreigner exclusive. Maybe, because Korean WCS is way harder they could just cut WCS NA (besides 1 or 2 players the NA scene is just loughable) and put this money to korea to balance the higher skill requirments.
Yeah lets kill the NA, SEA and China scenes completely. Sorry but this comment made me laugh, it's so wrong on so many levels.
It was an ok event. I watched EU more because it had Naniwa and grubby and MMA, 3 players I like to watch. And the finals was pretty good. But I watch more dota 2 than WCS. WCS just didn't seem special at all to me once players I liked got knocked out. Dota 2 on the other hand, I wasn't a fan of Navi or Alliance, but I loved the finals they were special and amazing. The numbers don't surpise me. WCS AM just simply isn't fun to watch for me. Day9 casting can only carry so much, but lets face it polt stomped JD it wasn't close. And considering WCS AM had like one foreign player(i hate using that term....) I just wasn't drawn into watching SC II. But I am honestly expecting closer to 100k at blizzcon. But the problem with SC II is that the personality of the champions is not interesting at all. Like I couldn't care less that Maru won, he is a great player, but it is meaningless to me. Now if Grubby had won, I would have been so excited and happy. My point is, maybe exclusive leagues, let koreans be in there league, and everyone else in there own leagues, and have a special Grand finals to find out who the best in the world is. But blizzard will not do this.
Eury didn't insult anyone. Basically Crytash is claiming that SC2 is 30% less popular than it was last year, which strikes me as complete rubbish. You would really need an actuary to look at and crunch all the different statistics:
What % of SC2 players: watch DOTA2 would watch DOTA2 over SC2 would not watch a PvP final would not watch a Korean vs Korean final are fans of Grubby would not watch the finals if Grubby were not in it are motivated to watch a tournament by the amount of prize $ given out like husky or don't like husky will switch to TI3 if there are sound issues with SC2 *cough cough ahem* are 50/50 on DOTA2 and SC2 and will watch both tournies are more interested in TI3 more than SC2
what % of DOTA 2 players: only signed on for the weekend to watch TI3 decided to check out SC2 while on their comps in tourney-watching mode decided they hate SC2 decided they like SC2 decided to tell a friend about SC2 own SC2 in the first place had never heard of SC2 before are going to stop watching the TI3 at any point due to teams losing/production/hours of day or night/to make a hotpocket are not interested in SC2 more than DOTA2
The fact is we just don't have enough of these metrics to really point at what is going on here. All I know is that as long as 78k people care enough about WCS EU to poke their heads in and see what's up, we're doing just fine.
Let's face it, these were only Ro8's. These weren't Ro32's with Innovation, Maru, Flash, Soulkey, and Rain flown in. Imagine the kind of numbers an event like that would garner, especially if hyped beforehand and broadcasted at a good time for the US and Europe to watch simultaneously.
Poll: Do you think we have enough information to determine if SC2 is dying?
No (17)
52%
Yes (14)
42%
Maybe (2)
6%
33 total votes
Your vote: Do you think we have enough information to determine if SC2 is dying?
It's pretty obviously not dying. It still pulls in respectable numbers of viewers for a tournament scheduled against the biggest event of another game.
Shrinking? Possibly it's resizing because some of the early adopters aren't interested any more for whatever reason.
Not #1? Very clearly LoL is the undisputed #1 eSport in terms of viewership. LoL tournaments and personal streams dwarf any other game, esports or not.
Dying? Most certainly not.
There's definitely room for lots of games and the more the merrier. People should focus on watching what they enjoy and not watching (or making commentary) on what they don't. I enjoy SC2 so I watch it. Simple.
On August 13 2013 01:09 Eury wrote: People should stop focusing so much on moba games and what numbers they are getting, and instead worry about our own community and game. If I run a 3 star restaurant I don't look at what the guys over at McDonalds are doing even though they are much popular.
This is on so many level wrong and insulting, that i am not sure if you troll or realy think that way.
What are you talking about?
Go troll someone else. I will not talk about the complexity difference of a team game vs single player game.
You seem confused Crytash
Yeah, I am not really sure what he is talking about. I think Eury insulted...someone? I am not sure who, though.
Comparing Dota 2 with MC Donalds (as in cheap food, bad working envrioment etc. pp.) is a clear insult to a whole community.
Or you just don't like McDonalds... Why are you insulting them ? Apologize now !
Turns out the world didn't end on 11th of August, as it was predicted by some big eSports figures.
you might not be familiar with this meme (it comes from HoN), but delete your lies and apologize! Anyone should have a good laugh :D Anyway, with the recent strike for more money in the fast food industry in the USA + fast food IS not as good (by clear definitions) as food from a high class restaurant, i think Mc Donalds is not a great company to be compared with.
edit: No i don't "claim" it. I just stated the fact that the average number of viewers is 34%+ less than the last season. This is not debatable, there are facts. I don't think sc2 is dying either. Stop with the strawman argumentation.
On August 12 2013 23:29 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: Wcs eu finals 2012: 125k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 1: 80k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 2: 78k
Dropping? ... -_-
Soe said it best: "the international is just better than every other tournament."
Exactly, it's made by a professional company who knows what they're doing. They've hyped it up for a long time, and it's on a big stage. Also, it's once a year, so that automatically gives it more meaning. Here is a picture of their numbers:
the "once a year" part in the main thing here. You can't compare TI to those season finals. Blizzcon numbers will tale the story here. Because TI is the absolute highlight of the Dota2 year (as far as I understood) while this were regular season games. Considering the huge satuation of SC2 content this weekend, the number are pretty fine. We'll just have to wait for the 2013 WCS finals at Blizzcon to make a real comparison.
If Blizzcon hit 1 Million, I'm buying you anything you want.
HeeroFX, your post is proof that this weekend was just too hectic to use as a litmus test for the health of SC2. There was just too much going on with too many overlapping communities, and too many variables within each community.
Also, losing a % of our fan-base to another game doesn't mean our game is "dying." It may be less popular, but before SC2 withers away to nothing SC3 will be out. Take into account the immense infrastructure in South Korea. Even if SC2 dies completely in NA, it will probably still exist there.
SC2 also has an absolute STRANGLEHOLD on the real-time strategy market.
The only thing that would genuinely, truly and for good kill SC2 and our community would be a newer, bigger, better, faster, free to play, amazingly updated and balanced, super-hard-core real-time strategy to replace it.
I think we're doing just fine. Yes we're losing some fanbase to MOBA's, but hell if you didn't know that was already happening then you've been living under a rock for the last year.
On August 12 2013 23:03 {ToT}ColmA wrote: eu finals last season just had "better" players or lets just say more diverse players, that and the dota thing combined probably explain some of the viewer numbers for eu. surprisingly low numbers for wcs am. i think they did a great job and besides the nasl sound guy with some issues it was a great event and the players in the top8 were pretty good.
Not really, the time zone I think personally made it hard for a lot of Europeans to watch.
We need to end the era of everyone looking at the LoL numbers and TI3 numbers with envy and crying about how far behind SC2 is. It is counter productive and only puts the negative, fun sucking shadow over all of SC2. It won’t make the numbers bigger and won’t change anything. If we want to see SC2’s number rise, the best thing the community can do is to stop claiming or attempting to prove it is dying(I don’t know why people think this would do anything good). The endless balance discussions and viewership discussions need to end and we need to just be focused on the next event and how awesome it is.
On August 12 2013 23:03 {ToT}ColmA wrote: eu finals last season just had "better" players or lets just say more diverse players, that and the dota thing combined probably explain some of the viewer numbers for eu. surprisingly low numbers for wcs am. i think they did a great job and besides the nasl sound guy with some issues it was a great event and the players in the top8 were pretty good.
Not really, the time zone I think personally made it hard for a lot of Europeans to watch.
To be fair the timezone made EU hard for me to watch. I missed most of day 1 and only caught the finals of day 2.
On August 13 2013 01:09 Eury wrote: People should stop focusing so much on moba games and what numbers they are getting, and instead worry about our own community and game. If I run a 3 star restaurant I don't look at what the guys over at McDonalds are doing even though they are much popular.
This is on so many level wrong and insulting, that i am not sure if you troll or realy think that way.
What are you talking about?
Go troll someone else. I will not talk about the complexity difference of a team game vs single player game.
You seem confused Crytash
Yeah, I am not really sure what he is talking about. I think Eury insulted...someone? I am not sure who, though.
My guess is he felt insulted because McDonalds was the moba games in their example(I'm presuming here).
edit: wow, didn't realize how long I had the reply for XD
To be honest these numbers are exactly what should have been expected. I think I predicted EU still hitting around 100k so I was roughly 20k off (which is a LOT) and I didn't expect the peak to drop off THAT much.
Competing with TI3 and being victim to korean over saturation means that these numbers are about what we can expect.
MY HOPE is that Season 3 we aren't competing with TI3 (nailed it) and that NASL/ESL production as well as maybe better foreign representation in EU (come on guys we are counting on you!) we can see these numbers go significantly up.
Remember this was the NASL's first handling of a WCS finals (but really an offline production on this scale since their last NASL final?) they have a LOT of room to grow!
On August 12 2013 23:29 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: Wcs eu finals 2012: 125k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 1: 80k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 2: 78k
Dropping? ... -_-
Soe said it best: "the international is just better than every other tournament."
Exactly, it's made by a professional company who knows what they're doing. They've hyped it up for a long time, and it's on a big stage. Also, it's once a year, so that automatically gives it more meaning. Here is a picture of their numbers:
I think you forgot the russian streams :D .
But btt :
Hey isnt it great that so many people like to watch e-sports ?! I think the numbers are great for both events (wcs / ti3). Lets just celebrate the greatness of esports. Yeah SC2 is not the most watched esport anymore. But so what .. ?
As long as esports grows as a whole, everyone will profit in the end.
Its was a great weekend, with great games, from great athletes, and with nearly no sleep for me, but i am happy.
And i hope you all will be, too.
Yeah, once a year event that has been hyped for 6 months with tons of build up and in game hype compaired to the second season of a year league. Guess what? Dota 2 isn't putting up those numbers again for another 12 months.
well dota 2 aint gonna get 1 mil concurrent viewers again but most dota 2 lans get 100k + viewers.
As expected the numbers are good considering all the different circumstances. That WCS America Finals actually went above 50k for it's finals are just mindboggling to me.
SC2 have it's place even if a event have shit hype behind it and people being crazy depressed about the whole scene. The region finals were a success no doubt about it.
On August 12 2013 23:29 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: Wcs eu finals 2012: 125k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 1: 80k Wcs eu finals 2013 season 2: 78k
Dropping? ... -_-
Soe said it best: "the international is just better than every other tournament."
Exactly, it's made by a professional company who knows what they're doing. They've hyped it up for a long time, and it's on a big stage. Also, it's once a year, so that automatically gives it more meaning. Here is a picture of their numbers:
I think you forgot the russian streams :D .
But btt :
Hey isnt it great that so many people like to watch e-sports ?! I think the numbers are great for both events (wcs / ti3). Lets just celebrate the greatness of esports. Yeah SC2 is not the most watched esport anymore. But so what .. ?
As long as esports grows as a whole, everyone will profit in the end.
Its was a great weekend, with great games, from great athletes, and with nearly no sleep for me, but i am happy.
And i hope you all will be, too.
Yeah, once a year event that has been hyped for 6 months with tons of build up and in game hype compaired to the second season of a year league. Guess what? Dota 2 isn't putting up those numbers again for another 12 months.
well dota 2 aint gonna get 1 mil concurrent viewers again but most dota 2 lans get 100k + viewers.
There viewership at any specific lan is around the same as SC2. There are some spikes when the finals happen and if more popular teams/players are there, but at the end of the day, Dota 2 does as well as SC2 at Dreamhack and other events.
Kind of this thread always bring MOBAs and SC2 comparison up, follow with " SC2 is dying ". In real sports, Tennis and Chess can't beat Soccer's fanbase numbers and viewership, same thing happens in esports
On August 13 2013 03:14 Tobblish wrote: As expected the numbers are good considering all the different circumstances. That WCS America Finals actually went above 50k for it's finals are just mindboggling to me.
SC2 have it's place even if a event have shit hype behind it and people being crazy depressed about the whole scene. The region finals were a success no doubt about it.
Now for the Season finals!
Well if ya think about it, NASL pulled out all the big guns for their finals and was fortunate that their final 4 was really strong. I mean it had it all, best foreigner, brood war legend, adopted American hope and ridiculously popular Liquid Terran, cast by Day9 and Husky, with a live audience, with NASLs excellent filler content and overall "party" feel they got going on. With all that, they only just kept up with the S1 finals that arguably had a less popular player and caster pool.
It's good the finals didn't bomb, but NASL did everything in their power to prevent that from happening.
On August 13 2013 01:09 Eury wrote: People should stop focusing so much on moba games and what numbers they are getting, and instead worry about our own community and game. If I run a 3 star restaurant I don't look at what the guys over at McDonalds are doing even though they are much popular.
Pretty much this, I'd quote it a million times if I could.
Know how many people I had to explain to yesterday at a barcraft that, no, the game isn't actually dying? Can people just stop being stupid or at the very least start walking into the streets without looking both ways so I don't have to deal with that stupidity anymore?
On August 12 2013 22:55 KaiserKieran wrote: Whats the highest viewership a live starcraft game has ever obtained?
I think probably finals stage of first HoTS mlg (~150k). Maybe look back at the great late 2011 early 2012 period? Didn't pay too much attention back then tho. And as always, hard to compare with factual viewership of kr events. Osl, GSL and PL finals most prolly beat those numbers.
I remember the HDH Beta Invitationals (Wings of Liberty Beta, grand finals between White-Ra and Idra) had around 180k on the stream.
You are completely misremembering. It maxed out at 24k.
On August 13 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote: We need to end the era of everyone looking at the LoL numbers and TI3 numbers with envy and crying about how far behind SC2 is. It is counter productive and only puts the negative, fun sucking shadow over all of SC2. It won’t make the numbers bigger and won’t change anything. If we want to see SC2’s number rise, the best thing the community can do is to stop claiming or attempting to prove it is dying(I don’t know why people think this would do anything good). The endless balance discussions and viewership discussions need to end and we need to just be focused on the next event and how awesome it is.
This right here, needs to be reiterated in almost every thread on this subforum.
On August 13 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote: We need to end the era of everyone looking at the LoL numbers and TI3 numbers with envy and crying about how far behind SC2 is. It is counter productive and only puts the negative, fun sucking shadow over all of SC2. It won’t make the numbers bigger and won’t change anything. If we want to see SC2’s number rise, the best thing the community can do is to stop claiming or attempting to prove it is dying(I don’t know why people think this would do anything good). The endless balance discussions and viewership discussions need to end and we need to just be focused on the next event and how awesome it is.
I second this. Play the games you enjoy, enjoy the games you play. Since when do we need to justify our enjoyment of a game by viewship numbers.
On August 12 2013 23:03 Random_0 wrote: What about the WCS Korea stream? I'd be interested in seeing how those numbers compare to these?
Speaking number of TV viewers,OGN's average of rating is around of 0.2% and usually peak of rating is around 0.7% in the Final events and big evnets Korean Cable TV subscribers are about 15 million households, i'd let you go to calculate the number of TV viewers.
and it is difficult to aggregate how many korea stream viewers have but i can say it usually far more than 100k viewers in the interent stream you know there are so many streaming services to watch OGN and GOMTV (included mobile) nowdays, 40% of Korean young generation ppl they watch TV,vod and stream via mobile also so many ppl watch gsl,LOL leagues and OGN broadcast with their mobile devices, so it is hard to aggregate the total numbers.
On August 13 2013 04:22 blinken wrote: I watched DOTA 2 for almost half an hour and had never been so bored in my life.
I agree. I watched 1 1/2 games of it and I didn't find it that exciting or special. I've never played any moba game in my life. I think unless you play the game yourself, it's too complicated of a game to follow and know what's going on. I don't think it has any intrinsic entertainment value from the perspective of a non player. There's just too much you need to know in order to enjoy watching it.
On August 13 2013 04:22 blinken wrote: I watched DOTA 2 for almost half an hour and had never been so bored in my life.
I agree. I watched 1 1/2 games of it and I didn't find it that exciting or special. I've never played any moba game in my life. I think unless you play the game yourself, it's too complicated of a game to follow and know what's going on. I don't think it has any intrinsic entertainment value from the perspective of a non player. There's just too much you need to know in order to enjoy watching it.
I play it (2000 hours on steam and X amount in Wc3) and even I find it boring to watch. Some people don't understand that opinions are subjective I guess.
On August 13 2013 04:22 blinken wrote: I watched DOTA 2 for almost half an hour and had never been so bored in my life.
I agree. I watched 1 1/2 games of it and I didn't find it that exciting or special. I've never played any moba game in my life. I think unless you play the game yourself, it's too complicated of a game to follow and know what's going on. I don't think it has any intrinsic entertainment value from the perspective of a non player. There's just too much you need to know in order to enjoy watching it.
I play it (2000 hours on steam and X amount in Wc3) and even I find it boring to watch. Some people don't understand that opinions are subjective I guess.
I feel the same. That said, the last few minutes of the final game was pretty exciting. Other than that I watched a couple chinese team games, and gah the inaction.
I'm not surprised if the viewership numbers have fallen over the years. I remember two, three years ago I would always have a starcraft steam open. I purchased MLG gold so I could watch 4 streams at the same time. But after three years of Sc2, I still love the game and enjoy watching, but I just don't have it in me to invest that much time into watching.
We need to end the era of everyone looking at the LoL numbers and TI3 numbers with envy and crying about how far behind SC2 is. It is counter productive and only puts the negative, fun sucking shadow over all of SC2. It won’t make the numbers bigger and won’t change anything. If we want to see SC2’s number rise, the best thing the community can do is to stop claiming or attempting to prove it is dying(I don’t know why people think this would do anything good). The endless balance discussions and viewership discussions need to end and we need to just be focused on the next event and how awesome it is.
I agreed with you until the last sentence. The thing is, there are a tonne of problems with Sc2 eSports, and there have been since the game came out. If nobody actually criticizes or complains about anything (e.g. balance, shitty tournament formats, bad casters, bad game design, bad UI, etc.) then nothing is ever going to get changed. It should be pretty obvious by now that Blizzard in particular aren't going to just improve themselves reliably for the sake of it.
On August 12 2013 23:03 Random_0 wrote: What about the WCS Korea stream? I'd be interested in seeing how those numbers compare to these?
Speaking number of TV viewers,OGN's average of rating is around of 0.2% and usually peak of rating is around 0.7% in the Final events and big evnets Korean Cable TV subscribers are about 15 million households, i'd let you go to calculate the number of TV viewers.
and it is difficult to aggregate how many korea stream viewers have but i can say it usually far more than 100k viewers in the interent stream you know there are so many streaming services to watch OGN and GOMTV (included mobile) nowdays, 40% of Korean young generation ppl they watch TV,vod and stream via mobile also so many ppl watch gsl,LOL leagues and OGN broadcast with their mobile devices, so it is hard to aggregate the total numbers.
Hey man you are the same guy that responded tot this question when i asked it in the other wcs am theread.Thnks for the info. So if 15 mil koreans have cable and 0.7 percent ma are watching ogn on tv during finals that each final has roughly 105000 viewers.now if tis true that this represents just about 50% of viewership you get to 200000 viewership average for an esports final in south korea for tv and mobile.PLus lets say 100k more on the internet you get 300k viewers max for an esports final.Which is good but the numbers are very close to what games such as dota and lol are getting all around the world.If the growth of the foreign sene persists in a couple of years time maybe the foreign scene combined will surpass korea in viewership.
@incontrol
" NASL/ESL production as well as maybe better foreign representation in EU (come on guys we are counting on you!) we can see these numbers go significantly up. "
As a guy who has been in the esports industry for a very long time you should know this never happens.Korean dominance only gets worse with time and unless blizzard introduces some nice way of region locking like studio only play koreans will be in increasing number and viewership numbers will get lower.Maybe foreign teams such as eg and liquid can start using na and european talent instead of koreans who can not make it in korea anymore.Might be a good way for you guys to contribute to viewership numbers.
I find dota2 exciting because Na'Vi Puppey from around my area ( the realization basically changed my mind about the value of localized tourneys - not saying that WCS should enforce some sort of hard regional-lock policy, but more local tourneys is a must).
I find intercontinental LoL tourneys exiting because how koreans actually look like they managed to break surpass the western teams, proving that the skill ceiling there is high enough for high quality practice enviroment to shine.
I find lot of starcraft2 exiting to watch no matter what, because i just find RTS genre the most exiting to watch. As long as the metagame of starcraft2 wont stagnate to "every-zerg-game-will-be-broodlord-infestor" sc2 will have healthy playerbase and viewership.
Not sure if there can be growth to go to 200-300k+ concurrent viewers without a change in the game tho. Whatever complaints about the tournament formats, starcraft2 still has the best viewer/playerbase ratio so it looks obvious to me that getting more people to play starcraft is more important than improving whatever tournament formats we have ( of course imrpovements in tournaments are a plus, just not as important as many people seem to believe ).
One thing about tournaments is getting the biggest events of the year exactly right tho - people new to starcraft2 are more likely to tune in into blizzcon, global season finals, dreamhack main event of the year, IEM grand final events - if the organizers get those right - screwups on regional final scheduling and such are much more excusable.
On August 12 2013 22:51 Stijn wrote: For the past few weeks I've been working on a site that tracks viewer numbers for starcraft 2 Twitch streams and turns them into graphs, rankings, et cetera. I got it more or less finished just in time for the WCS Season 2 finals weekend, and since there's been some discussion about how many viewers these events would get I though that's be a nice opportunity to announce the site and give an example of the kind of things it does at the same time ^^
Furthermore the site also tracks player streams (example) and teams (example) and gives a comprehensive overview of how stream viewership is doing in comparison to earlier weeks and such, so hopefully it can be useful for individual streamers as well.
The EU stream had the most viewers by far, topping out at 78k during the grand final but reaching 65k earlier during the duckdeok vs Grubby game.
While the EU stream viewership climbed relatively slowly to reach strong numbers during the last few games of the day, the NA stream was more consistent, quickly reaching a relatively high level and staying at that for the remainder of the day.
As expected, averages were lower than for previous season's WCS finals, which can probably be attributed to The International 3's finals being on at the same time. Averages for the NA and streams were about 10k lower than for previous season's finals.
EU had it worse with 45k average on day 2 compared to 80k for season 1's final day. This could perhaps be attributed to the fact that this season, the final two were Korean, while in Season 1 fan favourite Stephano fought for the title.
Of course, the Korean championship is broadcast on other platforms than Twitch and as such it is impossible to obtain accurate viewer numbers for it.
I hope these numbers are of use to some of you and contribute to having better discussions about these things. Feel free to let me know if you have any feedback on the site or would like to see some specific graphs or overviews!
Nice work with compiling of the data, Stijn. I assume it is accurate. You have made some errors in your observations section in the OP.
WCS EU had average viewers of 49.9k not 45k for Season 2 Day 2. When you click on the graph for Day 2, it instead takes you to Day 1 on the fuzic.nl website. The link needs changing.
Also using Conti's figures for Season 1 and fuzic.nl figures for Season 2 shows comparable figures in WCS AM for average viewers between Season 1 and 2.
Number breakdown
WCS EU Season 1 Day 1 average 55.0k peak unknown WCS EU Season 1 Day 2 average 80.5k peak unknown
WCS EU Season 2 Day 1 average 45.1k peak 65.2k WCS EU Season 2 Day 2 average 49.9k peak 78.0k
WCS AM Season 1 Day 1 average 35.4k peak unknown WCS AM Season 1 Day 2 average 44.0k peak unknown
WCS AM Season 2 Day 1 average 35.5k peak 46.7k WCS AM Season 2 Day 2 average 43.3k peak 51.7k
(NB. Season 1 data taken from Conti's numbers, Season 2 data taken from Fuzic.nl) --------------------------------------------------------
WCS EU Season 1 Final Day had an average of 80.5k viewers and this dropped for Season 2 to a Final Day average of just under 50k viewers. A drop of almost 40%!
The Final day for WCS EU Season 2 managed to reach only about 62% of the average viewing figures for Season 1.
Season 2 Finals at it's peak (78k) was less than the average for Season 1 (80k)!
WCS AM have virtually identical average figures between Season 1 and 2. A negligible difference that is no more than a fluctuation. 100 more on Day 1 and 700 less on Day 2. I think TB made a good point above, when he noted that Season 2 had more popular semi-finalists compared to Season 1 (apart from Hero). Despite having more players with larger fanbases in Season 2 semi-finals, the viewing figures did not rise but had a slight fall. It is likely the popularity of these Top 4 players prevented a sharp decline in viewing figures for the Final Day of Season 2. Huge and worrying decline in viewing figures just in the space of a few months for WCS EU. Very concerning for the scene.
Regarding the drop in EU viewers remember that last season we had an Mvp vs Stephano finals. Foreigner vs Korean, two very popular players, most popular matchup. A PvP between two Koreans one of whom is not very well known is bound to have far less of a draw.
Thanks revel8, good catch, I kind of threw together the OP quickly before I had to leave earlier today, sad to see I made some mistakes. I have updated the OP with your breakdown in it!
On August 13 2013 06:07 Exarl25 wrote: Regarding the drop in EU viewers remember that last season we had an Mvp vs Stephano finals. Foreigner vs Korean, two very popular players, most popular matchup. A PvP between two Koreans one of whom is not very well known is bound to have far less of a draw.
True you can expect a drop due to the factors you mention, but a drop of almost 40% is massively worrying.
On August 13 2013 06:08 Stijn wrote: Thanks revel8, good catch, I kind of threw together the OP quickly before I had to leave earlier today, sad to see I made some mistakes. I have updated the OP with your breakdown in it!
Great work on compiling the data and presenting it to us via the graphs. The time stamps are useful, as you can see the rise and fall which correspond to downtimes between games withing a series and the larger drop as the downtimes between series.
Didn't mean to be critical in pointing out the errors. Just that for statistical based conclusions, errors need to be corrected in order for maintain credibility and allow correct analysis. You've gone to a lot of work in compiling this data, would be unfortunate for it's results to be obscured due to some minor typos.
The website is very impressive. A great resource for the community!
I feel like there's a small, not very surprising underlying drop-off due to HotS hype wearing off. I'd put most of the EU drop due to the fact that there were fewer foreigners, none in the final and way too much Protoss. NA held up better because none of those factors apply there.
One other thing that people don't tend to consider is that chat was in subs-only mode this time. I'm pretty sure that's been shown to decrease viewer numbers generally. People like to chat.
Season 1 AM day 2 peak: 65k Season 1 EU day 2 peak: 128k
Just looking at those numbers revel8 posted it's interesting to note how day 1 numbers for EU were much closer to each other. Then on day 2 there's a massive gap. One scenario is that so many foreigners were knocked out for ro4 that many people who would've tuned in for just the final 3 or 4 games didn't bother. I think if the finals had been, say, Grubby vs Naniwa then somewhere nearer 100k peak wouldn't have been out of the question. Or Perhaps we're down to a core of about 40-50k 'diehards' that will watch the games no matter what and that the more casual fans have left for pastures new.
I actually think the Gamescom finals can do very well, back to 100-120k if promoted correctly. Great player pool and there's a nice 2 week gap to build hype.
On August 13 2013 06:43 Blardy wrote: Was I the only one that didnt watch a second of TI3? Apparently it seems as if everyone on here thinks the whole esports community watched it.
well it did peak at 200,000-240,000 and easily stood over 100,000 viewer after bracket throughout the tournament. There was quiet a few people that watched and was probably one of the biggest esport event of the year so most esport fan in general watched some of it.
I hope the next time they do WCS AM regionals that it is not on the same day during WCS EU and also earlier in the day to capture more EU stream audience. I think Sunday if you wanted to catch it all you had to be up at 5am PST if you wanted to catch all the EU games. Some of the AM crowd is just waking up and some will simply miss the first couple hours.
a 40k drop in viewership in Europe is huge regardless of excuses.And that was sc2's best foreign region.Region lock must be introduced asap.|Either that or studio only play to prevent no name koreans form taking the viewership.It is sort of sad really that if you add up the sc2 regional finals viewership numbers you get something like 80k+50k+50k(osl) and end up with about as many viewers a good lcs match between tsm and clg which happens almost every week while the regional finals only happen once a year.If Blizzard doesnt fix the b team koreans fleeing to europe, soon all regions will stabilize at around 50k.Poeple need to realize that b team koreans who can not make it in korea are not a draw for foreign viewers and that any esports competition needs entertainment and local talent.
On August 13 2013 06:07 Exarl25 wrote: Regarding the drop in EU viewers remember that last season we had an Mvp vs Stephano finals. Foreigner vs Korean, two very popular players, most popular matchup. A PvP between two Koreans one of whom is not very well known is bound to have far less of a draw.
I just went to bed once all the PvPs started. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of other people did as well.
I find it very hard to care about Koreans fighting in WCS EU/WCS NA. Some of it may have to do with not liking Finale's play-style. I guess I just really want foreigners to do well, so I'm kind of put off when they are eliminated. I suspect a lot of people feel the same way. I can watch great Koreans play awesomely by the immense content from WCS Korea. I get something different from EU/NA, and it's not like the quality is that much worse.
On August 13 2013 06:48 nicensleazy wrote: Just to fill in some numbers:
Season 1 AM day 2 peak: 65k Season 1 EU day 2 peak: 128k
Just looking at those numbers revel8 posted it's interesting to note how day 1 numbers for EU were much closer to each other. Then on day 2 there's a massive gap. One scenario is that so many foreigners were knocked out for ro4 that many people who would've tuned in for just the final 3 or 4 games didn't bother. I think if the finals had been, say, Grubby vs Naniwa then somewhere nearer 100k peak wouldn't have been out of the question. Or Perhaps we're down to a core of about 40-50k 'diehards' that will watch the games no matter what and that the more casual fans have left for pastures new.
I actually think the Gamescom finals can do very well, back to 100-120k if promoted correctly. Great player pool and there's a nice 2 week gap to build hype.
On August 13 2013 06:43 Blardy wrote: Was I the only one that didnt watch a second of TI3? Apparently it seems as if everyone on here thinks the whole esports community watched it.
you should definitely go watch the finals or at least the final game of the grand final. i dont follow dota2 or play at all but it was still v cool and nail biting
i think viewer numbers were surprisingly high for the finals in wcs eu considering pvp etc. actually pvp has gotten 10 times more fun to watch when people arent just sitting and building colossus anymore. i think region lock would be the one best thing to increase viewer numbers for the final play-offs however probably decrease in viewers when its not the final 16 players
ofc sc2 is going down by each day in viewer count and player base but that shouldnt really come as a surprise to anyone, its a rts game after all. but some people here make it out to be that its actually dying quickly and its looking dire, which i think its not at all. people need to remember back in the day there werent this much content out there constantly to watch so when there actually was a big tour going on literally everyone tuned in while these days you can nitpick your favorite events and still have plenty of sc2 to watch
Even though Grubby made it into the top 4, i found the amount of Protoss rather overwelming and enjoyed last seasons Finals alot more. This is a personal flavor ofc, but i can imagine that also did not help in the viewership numbers.
Considering all points give already, the numbers still seem good all in all. what i would really like to hear though from blizzard is if the current numbers are sustainable enough to keep WCS going, and possibly even expand to let's say SEA or South America ? And if these numbers are not what they were looking for how will they try and improve on it.
On August 12 2013 23:09 USvBleakill wrote: Another example of Foreigners > Highest level of play in terms of viewership.
I think if SC2 wants to genereate as much viewers as possible they have to make EU foreigner exclusive. Maybe, because Korean WCS is way harder they could just cut WCS NA (besides 1 or 2 players the NA scene is just loughable) and put this money to korea to balance the higher skill requirments.
How the heck did you arrive at that conclusion? In WCS EU the Grand Finals had more viewers then in the Grubby series, also this season of WCS ran at the same time as TI3, which generated enormous numbers, not to mention the number of PvP that could have put off many viewers too. There are far too many variables here and as much as I disagree with Blizz not region locking, this certainly isn't concrete evidence they should.
EPT
duckdeok vs ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9y4iTQQ.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/M8VObOt.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RivDlga.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1wsK3ph.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IqzAkpy.jpg)
Only 1 power of 10 behind TI3!
