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On August 09 2013 20:17 Kreb wrote:lol I wake up to doom sayers all over both reddit and TL. You guys realize that while SC2 optimism was all time high (probably before LoL came in to take the #1 esports popularity title), having 45k or whatever on a random middle-of-the-week-day for a Ro16 in SC2 was absolutely unheard of. You remember the Dreamhack with the MC-Whitera final? It had what, 60k-ish viewers? The year after with the highly famous Thorzain win over Polt? Maybe 70-75k or so? Hell even DH Bucharest last year which Nerchio won had a very lackluster like 40k (?) or so viewers. When the extremely hyped NASL season 1 came around? 15k-ish on a normal day maybe? Only to fall down to 5-10k or maybe even below 5k as hype dropped off following seasons. Now we're getting 45k on a freaking random Ro16 at a bad time, DH events pull 100k+ the final day. So does WCS EU and say what you want about WCS AM but its way higher than what you'd get on any random NA tourny run on normal week days. Yea, right.
Nobody said that SC2 hasn't grown. It did grow but when compared to other games it growed too little. The International 3 had like 150k players (not on a final day!).
We have to compare player bases with other games, because it directly affects us. It is only natural for tournament organizers to take up games with the bigger player/viewer base. MLG first removed SC2 from the main stage to put there LoL and now they aren't even planning to put it at all in the next one.
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On August 09 2013 20:19 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 09 2013 20:14 malaan wrote:
It echoes what many who have already quit SC2 said : Blizzard does not care since they teamed up with Activision. Bobby Kotick cares about one thing: Money. All of the problems that the game has right now (including WCS) stems from this.
Blizzard can simply not compete with the giant communities of Dota 2 and LoL. It's less about the game and much more about the company practice. Riot and Valve take way better care of the community, voices get heard, the games get regular updates that reflect the views of everyone, not just a small in-house design team ran by David Kim.
If I'm being honest, I never enjoyed SC2 a fraction of what I enjoyed about BW, but there is no use crying over it since both games are pretty much dead - MLG dropping SC2 is one more hefty nail in the coffin (despite what some of the desperate pros are saying.) Gaming and esports moves along quickly. New games and new technology means things get old really fast, and since Blizzard are notoriously slow for fixing issues like balance, people get tired even faster. That is why so many players quit. I have not played a single game of SC2 since picking up Dota2 beta account last year. It's just more fun, I can play with friends, and the constant updates and novelties upheld by Valve makes SC2 look laughable.
This of course is all my opinion, so take with a grain of salt. But I really can't see SC2 surviving, mostly because of Activision Blizzard. Or it is because RTS games are just not popular. This is fact and most people who buy them do not play multi-player.
Was just talking to a friend yesterday and he asked me whether I was still playing Starcraft. He only played the campaign, enjoyed it, and is now back to Guild Wars 2.
Teamgames... That's the one really big flaw that Starcraft has imo. Blizzard left the community on their own with coming up with Teamgames, and when they come up, they don't promote them. Desert Strike being #1 Arcade game for 2years sadly tells more about the Arcade support than the quality of DS.
Imo, they should have made a ladder with Arcade maps a long time ago. Would be awesome to queue for the Arcade ladder with a friend and then play a game of Warships, or a game of Desert Strike, or the new community-contest winner mini-RPG.
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Enough already.
SC2 is one of the hardest games ever made. That's why it's not popular.
Can we move on?
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On August 09 2013 20:26 squanzo wrote:
Enough already.
SC2 is one of the hardest games ever made. That's why it's not popular.
Can we move on?
Never, we will rehash this discussion over and over.
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The main problem in my eyes is definitly the client and unit stats (supply and dps is way too high)
pretty nice thread pointed out almost everything i could think of.
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On August 09 2013 20:26 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:19 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2013 20:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 09 2013 20:14 malaan wrote:
It echoes what many who have already quit SC2 said : Blizzard does not care since they teamed up with Activision. Bobby Kotick cares about one thing: Money. All of the problems that the game has right now (including WCS) stems from this.
Blizzard can simply not compete with the giant communities of Dota 2 and LoL. It's less about the game and much more about the company practice. Riot and Valve take way better care of the community, voices get heard, the games get regular updates that reflect the views of everyone, not just a small in-house design team ran by David Kim.
If I'm being honest, I never enjoyed SC2 a fraction of what I enjoyed about BW, but there is no use crying over it since both games are pretty much dead - MLG dropping SC2 is one more hefty nail in the coffin (despite what some of the desperate pros are saying.) Gaming and esports moves along quickly. New games and new technology means things get old really fast, and since Blizzard are notoriously slow for fixing issues like balance, people get tired even faster. That is why so many players quit. I have not played a single game of SC2 since picking up Dota2 beta account last year. It's just more fun, I can play with friends, and the constant updates and novelties upheld by Valve makes SC2 look laughable.
This of course is all my opinion, so take with a grain of salt. But I really can't see SC2 surviving, mostly because of Activision Blizzard. Or it is because RTS games are just not popular. This is fact and most people who buy them do not play multi-player. Was just talking to a friend yesterday and he asked me whether I was still playing Starcraft. He only played the campaign, enjoyed it, and is now back to Guild Wars 2. Teamgames... That's the one really big flaw that Starcraft has imo. Blizzard left the community on their own with coming up with Teamgames, and when they come up, they don't promote them. Desert Strike being #1 Arcade game for 2years sadly tells more about the Arcade support than the quality of DS. Imo, they should have made a ladder with Arcade maps a long time ago. Would be awesome to queue for the Arcade ladder with a friend and then play a game of Warships, or a game of Desert Strike, or the new community-contest winner mini-RPG.
I guess you haven't seen the series they have done every week checking out and promoting different Arcade games on their webpage and youtube.
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As far as im aware the issue is a lack of transparency rather then lack of action.
Blizzard rather then allowing us to see what their doing (think glass window) essentially act as a black box spitting out paper with the results. We dont get to see what was done to come to the conclusions, all we get are terribly brief uninforming situation reports and interviews.
For all we know blizzard is going ape shit at trying to fix things, the problem they arent showing us it, all we see is the black box.
(Trying not to let rage bias-up my post)
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On August 09 2013 20:26 squanzo wrote:
Enough already.
SC2 is one of the hardest games ever made. That's why it's not popular.
Can we move on?
I dont even think it is that "hard", it just takes a different person/mindset to play it. I mean, obviously to play at the highest level it is hard... but every game is hard to try and play at "perfect" level.
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On August 09 2013 20:26 squanzo wrote:
Enough already.
SC2 is one of the hardest games ever made. That's why it's not popular.
Can we move on?
Ohhh.... fuck you. Do you even hear yourelf? BW is much-much more mechanically demanding than SC2 ever was and will be (It's a fact TL don't ban me). BW was insanely popular in Korea (very hard game) and now everyone is a LoL fan, which is depending on TL's opinion an easy game. So please at least think before you'd write such a non-sense.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 09 2013 20:25 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 19:57 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 09 2013 19:54 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote:
SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players. as stated in the MLG thread by many's already ... the 4.) problem is that Sc2 is not that good of an spectator sport! I find it more spectator friendly than dota2/LoL. I dont know/understand the mechanics of 100+ heroes. I understand the draft is important, but I dont understand the choices or possibilities. When a fight happens, I see healthbars go down and good teamwork but I dont understand any of it. That's because you've played sc2 but haven't played lol/dota! The actual problem in my eyes, is that dota/lol is easier to get into, and thus get invested and wanting to watch the pros. sc2 is hard. I don't think that's a bad thing but it makes for a smaller community. What sc2 DOES have going for it though is that when you stop playing sc2, watching it can still be enjoyable. I found that when I stopped playing dota2 I wasn't interested in watching it anymore, same with lol. But sc2 I still enjoy watching even though I don't play it much anymore.
Dota and LoL are "easier to get into" because of parsed responsibility. You can say "I will only lean to center lane so when we lose top or bottom then it's not my fault" or you can jungle and gank all game getting the most kills on your team, but since you didn't support anyone when doing it your team loses and you think it's others fault"
RTS doesn't allow you to tunnel vision. Either you learn the total aspect of the game (early mid And late) or you die to "random stuff you never see"
It's daunting to most people having that kind of responsibility.
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SC2 has consistently had 24-28k players for years. Dota 2 has increased players from 100k to 400k in the last year alone. You can't expect to grow the scene when new people just don't want to play the game. As far as views go, what event does SC2 have that comes close to the near 600k peak that are watching The International 3 this week? I think people have failed to recognize that growing the number of players is key to increasing viewers.
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On August 09 2013 20:26 squanzo wrote:
Enough already.
SC2 is one of the hardest games ever made. That's why it's not popular.
Can we move on?
bw maby? lol.
a game out of 1998 had one of the finest balance and game disign created within 3 years which a game that has been in devolopment for double the time hasn't even graspt,. let alone that it even had a better client.
On August 09 2013 20:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:25 Clarity_nl wrote:On August 09 2013 19:57 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 09 2013 19:54 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote:
SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players. as stated in the MLG thread by many's already ... the 4.) problem is that Sc2 is not that good of an spectator sport! I find it more spectator friendly than dota2/LoL. I dont know/understand the mechanics of 100+ heroes. I understand the draft is important, but I dont understand the choices or possibilities. When a fight happens, I see healthbars go down and good teamwork but I dont understand any of it. That's because you've played sc2 but haven't played lol/dota! The actual problem in my eyes, is that dota/lol is easier to get into, and thus get invested and wanting to watch the pros. sc2 is hard. I don't think that's a bad thing but it makes for a smaller community. What sc2 DOES have going for it though is that when you stop playing sc2, watching it can still be enjoyable. I found that when I stopped playing dota2 I wasn't interested in watching it anymore, same with lol. But sc2 I still enjoy watching even though I don't play it much anymore. Dota and LoL are "easier to get into" because of parsed responsibility. You can say "I will only lean to center lane so when we lose top or bottom then it's not my fault" or you can jungle and gank all game getting the most kills on your team, but since you didn't support anyone when doing it your team loses and you think it's others fault" RTS doesn't allow you to tunnel vision. Either you learn the total aspect of the game (early mid And late) or you die to "random stuff you never see" It's daunting to most people having that kind of responsibility.
this sir, deserves tl+
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On August 09 2013 20:29 Tobblish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:26 Big J wrote:On August 09 2013 20:19 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2013 20:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 09 2013 20:14 malaan wrote:
It echoes what many who have already quit SC2 said : Blizzard does not care since they teamed up with Activision. Bobby Kotick cares about one thing: Money. All of the problems that the game has right now (including WCS) stems from this.
Blizzard can simply not compete with the giant communities of Dota 2 and LoL. It's less about the game and much more about the company practice. Riot and Valve take way better care of the community, voices get heard, the games get regular updates that reflect the views of everyone, not just a small in-house design team ran by David Kim.
If I'm being honest, I never enjoyed SC2 a fraction of what I enjoyed about BW, but there is no use crying over it since both games are pretty much dead - MLG dropping SC2 is one more hefty nail in the coffin (despite what some of the desperate pros are saying.) Gaming and esports moves along quickly. New games and new technology means things get old really fast, and since Blizzard are notoriously slow for fixing issues like balance, people get tired even faster. That is why so many players quit. I have not played a single game of SC2 since picking up Dota2 beta account last year. It's just more fun, I can play with friends, and the constant updates and novelties upheld by Valve makes SC2 look laughable.
This of course is all my opinion, so take with a grain of salt. But I really can't see SC2 surviving, mostly because of Activision Blizzard. Or it is because RTS games are just not popular. This is fact and most people who buy them do not play multi-player. Was just talking to a friend yesterday and he asked me whether I was still playing Starcraft. He only played the campaign, enjoyed it, and is now back to Guild Wars 2. Teamgames... That's the one really big flaw that Starcraft has imo. Blizzard left the community on their own with coming up with Teamgames, and when they come up, they don't promote them. Desert Strike being #1 Arcade game for 2years sadly tells more about the Arcade support than the quality of DS. Imo, they should have made a ladder with Arcade maps a long time ago. Would be awesome to queue for the Arcade ladder with a friend and then play a game of Warships, or a game of Desert Strike, or the new community-contest winner mini-RPG. I guess you haven't seen the series they have done every week checking out and promoting different Arcade games on their webpage and youtube.
I have seen it on their webpage. But I don't really care to read them. I don't think this is the kind of promotion that Arcade games need nor do I think it is a real effort to write some lines about some game, which will be probably outsourced to the mapcreator anyways. What they need is a good way to ensure players are playing the maps. And some competition. It's quite boring to play maps with someone when you know from his first moves that your team will lose, while it's also not interesting to pick up a new map when everybody who is playing it has superfancy stats while you are still reading the description what to do and how to play.
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On August 09 2013 20:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:25 Clarity_nl wrote:On August 09 2013 19:57 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 09 2013 19:54 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 19:42 Snowbear wrote:
SC2 is actually pretty good. The problem is that people prefer these MOBA games which 1) are played in team, 2) are easier, 3) are free (LoL at least). Imagine these MOBA games weren't there. There would be much more sc2 players. as stated in the MLG thread by many's already ... the 4.) problem is that Sc2 is not that good of an spectator sport! I find it more spectator friendly than dota2/LoL. I dont know/understand the mechanics of 100+ heroes. I understand the draft is important, but I dont understand the choices or possibilities. When a fight happens, I see healthbars go down and good teamwork but I dont understand any of it. That's because you've played sc2 but haven't played lol/dota! The actual problem in my eyes, is that dota/lol is easier to get into, and thus get invested and wanting to watch the pros. sc2 is hard. I don't think that's a bad thing but it makes for a smaller community. What sc2 DOES have going for it though is that when you stop playing sc2, watching it can still be enjoyable. I found that when I stopped playing dota2 I wasn't interested in watching it anymore, same with lol. But sc2 I still enjoy watching even though I don't play it much anymore. Dota and LoL are "easier to get into" because of parsed responsibility. You can say "I will only lean to center lane so when we lose top or bottom then it's not my fault" or you can jungle and gank all game getting the most kills on your team, but since you didn't support anyone when doing it your team loses and you think it's others fault" RTS doesn't allow you to tunnel vision. Either you learn the total aspect of the game (early mid And late) or you die to "random stuff you never see" It's daunting to most people having that kind of responsibility.
This is also true, but it also led to the worst community I have ever been in. The amount of abuse you can take in while new is absurd.
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I'm pretty sure you're presenting one-sided information by stating Blizzard just didn't listen.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
point # 2 and 3 are simply invalid
I am pretty sure WCS EU is not dominated by Koreans, and that's the region you play in, Strelok....
hell, you weren't even knocked out by a Korean player in WCS EU Challenger S1..
And as many region-locked tournaments have proven, people expected higher quality games, and without the higher caliber games, people just won't watch them. Now, if people don't care to watch them, who's gonna grow the scene?
It's a cruel world, and it's based on instant gratification. If an event can't satisfy the viewers, ie. high quality games, then who's gonna care that it has potential stars?
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I haven't read all the posts but I have to say:
I believe WCS is a system meant to find the best players, not for a nationality to fight b nationality.
and i think it does it 40/40
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On August 09 2013 20:31 Atlasy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:26 squanzo wrote:
Enough already.
SC2 is one of the hardest games ever made. That's why it's not popular.
Can we move on? Ohhh.... fuck you. Do you even hear yourelf? BW is much-much more mechanically demanding than SC2 ever was and will be (It's a fact TL don't ban me). BW was insanely popular in Korea (very hard game) and now everyone is a LoL fan, which is depending on TL's opinion an easy game. So please at least think before you'd write such a non-sense.
How popular was BW outside of Korea?
Was it in bars?
Did it pack stages?
45k-60k viewers 12 hours a day?
How was the foreign scene?
Did BW foreigners make more money?
Did BW foreigners have better standard of living?
How popular was it outside of forums like TL?
Was day9 also on Forbes magazine?
Was there a BW caster on FHM?
How popular was it?
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On August 09 2013 20:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:31 Atlasy wrote:On August 09 2013 20:26 squanzo wrote:
Enough already.
SC2 is one of the hardest games ever made. That's why it's not popular.
Can we move on? Ohhh.... fuck you. Do you even hear yourelf? BW is much-much more mechanically demanding than SC2 ever was and will be (It's a fact TL don't ban me). BW was insanely popular in Korea (very hard game) and now everyone is a LoL fan, which is depending on TL's opinion an easy game. So please at least think before you'd write such a non-sense. How popular was BW outside of Korea? Was it in bars? Did it pack stages? 45k-60k viewers 12 hours a day? How was the foreign scene? Did BW foreigners make more money? Did BW foreigners have better standard of living? How popular was it outside of forums like TL? Was day9 also on Forbes magazine? Was there a BW caster on FHM? How popular was it?
why is this relevant at all? he was pointing out the argument of X game is the hardest thus will never die is invalid.
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Sc2 ""declining"" (not sure what you even mean by this as sc2 viewership has stayed the same for over a year now) has nothing to do with how esports is handled. In computer games, you reach a peak and then you slowly decline until your game is dead. That's how it will be until the day when new computer games stop being made. If you think more people watch dota 2 than sc2 because there are 5 less terrans in GM than there should be then... get real.
Sc2 is the most popular ""hardcore"" game there is right now. Dota2 and LoL are great games but they are also FUN games. Teamgames. 99,9% of casual players don't come home after a hard day of work, wanting to relax, and starts playing 1on1 ladder in sc2. You can never compete with the player/viewerbase of these games, and you shouldn't. Chess doesn't compare itself to football. As long as chess can sustain itself, chess is fine.
And so is sc2.
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EPT
