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#sorry in advance for any misspellings.
Sc2 has it's downfalls I have to agree and mlg not covering Sc2 is sad but I have not seen a trend in declining viewers overall. Neither have a seen any statistic supporting such a notion.
However the game was originally designed for small map when the action was supposed to start early and keep on going. But that lead to straight out cheeses being predominate and one base pushing. I don't think anyone would had found that enjoyable to watch. So the maps were changed to fit a more competetive scene where the one basing and cheese builds would still be viable but not the only strategies.
What is most bothering to me about the games is the fundamental mechanics of sc2. The pathfinding, macro mechanics.
The pathfinding clumps up units making aoe damage much more effective.
The macro mechanics is balancing on the fine thread that every mechanics is in its own right broken.
Warp-gates nullifies defenders advantage and makes it tremendously harder to prepare properly for attacks and all-ins.
Larva inject give zerg extreme capabilities of remaxing and producing units and drones.
Mules speed up terrans productions to such a degree that spending 550 for 3rd CC for mules and scv is generally safe + makes scv kind of obsolete late game.
Maps changes balance I think everyone can agree to that. In the current maps you are able to cap on mineral income on just three bases. This is somewhat in the core of the problem since that mean less engagement to secure key expansions and less activeness out on the map since you "need" three bases to secure income. And with the current meta maps you get relatively securable third by default. You can therefor max out on economy easily which lead to less engagement to secure key areas. Overall less interactions between the players and enormous macro potential which lead to death balling. One suggestion to fix this was made by Barrin and his low mineral patch maps(or what they were called). It was kind of neat but such a huge change to maps would shake up balance to the extent that they could be called different games. Some variation of this could be considered when making new maps with the current meta in mind.
I extremly doubt huge changes will be made to several unit such as swarm host, void rays. Swarn host turtle play is so boring, same as void ray turtle plays. Both those strats can go to hell. I really hate the colossus aswell but I have not played against it in ages since all protoss do on ladder is 2-base allining with or without immortals. Or they void ray turtle.
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Destiny's prophecy of sc2 dying has been fulfilled.
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The scene will never be at the same place it was in BW not because Blizzard doesn't care (a stupid idea in my opinion, when's the last time you saw someone not care at all about something they were funding millions into), or because the game is "broken", but because the way every sport operates is different today than it was 15 years ago. More internet connectivity, more interpersonal communication between fans and players, and better travel options make the game far more global and less "exclusive" than it has ever been.
As someone who made their foray into Starcraft with SC2 not BW though - I was 10 when I tried to play BW for the first time 10 years ago, and only being able to grab a few marines at a time was incredibly discouraging lol - many of the issues that I see being brought up with game design as the main problem seem to me to be either irrelevant or nitpicking due to the game not being the same as the one they grew up with. The game design is where it's at currently because, contrary to popular belief, Blizzard has spent a shit ton of time trying to make a game that appeases both to casual gamers and can be played at a Professional level and have relative balance at both levels, and to them the combination of increased speed and ease of unit control makes it game that can be successful at most skill levels. While I think the "true skill ceiling" may be less in SC2 than it was in BW, to me it's not that noticeable of a difference and the slight difference in skill ceiling allows for more competition of a higher level amongst "lower leveled players" aka non-pro's
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On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote:
SCII becoming less popular. By little or by much? I don't know. But you can't ignore the fact, that instead of developing we start to get at least stagnation, if not worse. I was trying to contact Blizzard for several reasons during WoL. The reasons were different. I didn't get response for my feedback even a single time. I tried to talk with stuff from Blizzard, but no success. Even special meetings which were made for such a "discussions" were just for "V" in their diaries, not for discussion. I still remeber how in august 2012 in Germany progamers gathered together and tried to discuss with David Kim infestors and their imbalance in very late game, but he simply refused to listen. During next several months after that - huge number terran/protoss players retired. Noone wants to loose just because it's almost impossible to win. Maybe, if he listened, that wouldn't happen.
So i am writing here the open letter to Blizzard. Maybe now, they will answer for at least some of those questions.
1. Do you like how Starcraft develops? What do you plan to do to remain on level with such games as Dota, World of Tanks and LoL?
2. How WCS develops SCII scene? What will you say if WCS will be having top-8 each region as koreans? How will it help to develop young talents all over the world? How in general the participation of korean players who live and practise in Korea and then come to Europe and NA for 1-2 days for playing WCS and taking money away to Korea "develops" European and NA scene of Starcraft II?
3. In continuation to previous questions. Don't you fear that WCS will simply kill small(medium) online/lan events, because noone takes care of them, since WCS is always on a screens? And if it will be happening like that, how young potential stars can develop? There won't be small cups and big cups are taken by koreans in all 3 regions? Who will invest money in youngsters then?
4. Which are your nearest plans regarding battle.net upgrades? Why during all that time you still didn't make channels, like in SC:BW, where people from 1 region appear in a channel and can easily discuss stuff with friends? Don't you feel like every person feels "forever alone" in SC2? Why person can't race pick against every race, because it doesn't like, for example, mirrors?
5. What do you think about situation, in which terran as race almost disappeared from GML league in EU and NA servers? (47 from 200 in NA, 49 from 180 in Europe). Not so long ago you said that "Protosses simply lack of good players". So what happened to terrans then?
SCII becoming less popular? Compared to what? Compared to when? Where are your numbers? Oh wait, you don't know. As to developing, what aspect of SC2 needs developing? To what and where? What stagnation?
As to why Blizzard did not want to talk to you during WOL, even if we only have your own word for it, why should that matter? Maybe they don't rate you and/or your feedback. In interviews, by players, casters, and Blizzard, it is clear that Blizzard does take on feedback by some in the game - maybe they value some opinion higher than others. If so, fair enough.
It's difficult to know what DK said/didn't say/could have said etc. More to the point, this is not WOL. And it's a long bow to claim that stacks of Terran/Protoss players (like who?) retired due to the Infestor in WOL. I find this a dubious claim, especially as HOTS was round the corner in the latter portion of 2012. Maybe they (whoever they are) quit for other reasons.
I think your questions, with the exception of 1 and 5 are reasonable. As to 1, I don't know how Blizzard is meant to answer that question, if it even deserves a response. As to 5 it is yet another whine by a mediocre foreign Terran and unfortunately takes away from any credibility your post may have had. But none of your questions are a cause to demand a response from Blizzard in the way you have contextualised it. You make it sound as if the SC2 world is about to fall in and something must be done! Worse your post encourages the same drivelling nonsense that clogs up this sub-forum all too frequently.
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I use to subscribe to gomtv during the first year of release. Both gsl and gstl. Now i only watch some game on youtube. I hardly ever log in to the game and play it. I think yhe game lose interests very fast as i remember i still play scbw untill the last day before sc2 released. One of reason, in my opinion, is that in sc bw, you can not know what will be the result when 2 army clash. In sc2, we kind of know an army will beat the other just looking at it composition.
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On August 10 2013 12:29 Elldar wrote:
#sorry in advance for any misspellings.
Sc2 has it's downfalls I have to agree and mlg not covering Sc2 is sad but I have not seen a trend in declining viewers overall. Neither have a seen any statistic supporting such a notion.
However the game was originally designed for small map when the action was supposed to start early and keep on going. But that lead to straight out cheeses being predominate and one base pushing. I don't think anyone would had found that enjoyable to watch. So the maps were changed to fit a more competetive scene where the one basing and cheese builds would still be viable but not the only strategies.
What is most bothering to me about the games is the fundamental mechanics of sc2. The pathfinding, macro mechanics.
The pathfinding clumps up units making aoe damage much more effective.
The macro mechanics is balancing on the fine thread that every mechanics is in its own right broken.
Warp-gates nullifies defenders advantage and makes it tremendously harder to prepare properly for attacks and all-ins.
Larva inject give zerg extreme capabilities of remaxing and producing units and drones.
Mules speed up terrans productions to such a degree that spending 550 for 3rd CC for mules and scv is generally safe + makes scv kind of obsolete late game.
Maps changes balance I think everyone can agree to that. In the current maps you are able to cap on mineral income on just three bases. This is somewhat in the core of the problem since that mean less engagement to secure key expansions and less activeness out on the map since you "need" three bases to secure income. And with the current meta maps you get relatively securable third by default. You can therefor max out on economy easily which lead to less engagement to secure key areas. Overall less interactions between the players and enormous macro potential which lead to death balling. One suggestion to fix this was made by Barrin and his low mineral patch maps(or what they were called). It was kind of neat but such a huge change to maps would shake up balance to the extent that they could be called different games. Some variation of this could be considered when making new maps with the current meta in mind.
I extremly doubt huge changes will be made to several unit such as swarm host, void rays. Swarn host turtle play is so boring, same as void ray turtle plays. Both those strats can go to hell. I really hate the colossus aswell but I have not played against it in ages since all protoss do on ladder is 2-base allining with or without immortals. Or they void ray turtle.
+1 this, all of the problems are in the game
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I agree with all points, except the last one. The last one seems like a balance whine for terrans, which makes no sense with the topic at hand...
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Overall, I feel like SC2 is fine but LoL has SC2 beat in one key area
LoL has also been successful at keeping a hack-free environment where as other games like CS GO and SC2 have frequent hackers especially at higher leagues. Although, it's not that bad since hackers tend to be terrible players.
Games I like to play now
I stopped playing SC2 about 3 months ago. After 2 years of consistent laddering I eventually got bored. I guess I played too many games. While I think Hots is more balanced and has better gameplay than WOL, some of the design decisions in HOTS have made the game seem weird to me. Hellions being mechanical and biological is not intuitive. Harass options were buffed to a point of being ridiculous (hellbat drops and oracles until Terran learned to build early ebays). Widow mine design is way too similar to its predecessor. Vipers hard countered mech way too hard. I also dislike adding in slow moving super units like Tempest and Swarm Host. I really wish Blizzard would make units that don't encourage broodlord-infestor type playstyles.
I am really enjoy CS GO matchmaking currently despite the ragers/brazilians/hackers.
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On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote:
2. How WCS develops SCII scene? What will you say if WCS will be having top-8 each region as koreans? How will it help to develop young talents all over the world? How in general the participation of korean players who live and practise in Korea and then come to Europe and NA for 1-2 days for playing WCS and taking money away to Korea "develops" European and NA scene of Starcraft II?
I would like to add some to this point, because this has been nagging me for some time. Actually, I registered just to post this (although I’ve lurking here for a long time). As a casual player I’m on the other side of the SC2 spectrum compared to progamers like Mr. Strelok, but I do love to watch SC2 tournaments, more so than I enjoy watching soccer or ice hockey these days. I like the new WCS format too with the three regions WCS Europe, WCS America and WCS Korea. It’s the first year with this format and, obviously, we can expect some teething problems. Let’s do a quick stock taking with some fresh data collected this morning from Liquipedia:
- EU – So far 61 players have earned a total of 31,575 WCS points (including non-WCS event). Of these, 11 are Koreans, and the Koreans have earned 9,400 points for a total share of 29.8%. On the other hand, there are no less than 50 European players representing 17 different countries who have managed to earn WCS points this season.
- AM – So far 57 players have earned a total of 34,600 WCS points (also including non-WCS event). Of the 57 players 24 are Koreans, and the Koreans have earned 24,825 of the points for a total share of 71.8%. 13 countries are represented, where 6 are in America (US (14 participants), Canada (3), Mexico (2), Chile, Argentina and Peru (1 each). Other countries include China, Taiwan, Australia, New Zealand, Norway, UK.
Conclusions:
- EU is rather well represented through 17 different countries, showing a huge potential for a broad fan base. There are certainly more countries that could join the list (Belarus, Italy, Switzerland, Turkey to mention a few), but it is not bad so far!
- The number of participants that are not from the region need to be limited. In the case of America this is very obvious, with half of the participants being Koreans. All players coming through the qualifiers are Korean. This cannot continue, if you want to build some interest for SC2 in Brazil, Jamaica, Uruguay and other countries in the region. Also in the EU the number of Koreans participating is a problem in my opinion, although not as pronounced perhaps as in AM. The qualifiers are difficult enough as it is and I fear people won’t even try if they know that half of the bracket will be filled with Koreans that will stomp them. WSC regions should be a place where the talent of the region itself battles it out, where the up-comers will have a chance to play against more experienced players from the same region in a very cool and well covered event, where spectators like me will have the opportunity to see new players coming up.
- East Asia obviously needs a region of its own. From China / Japan in the north to Australia / New Zealand in the south there is nowhere to go right now, so the WCS EA is a must in the future. Again, as a spectator I’d be very excited to discover talents from Singapore, Philippines, Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia etc as well.
Suggestions to improve the situation:
- Revise the current policy on region swapping: Limit the number of participants from outside any given region to say a maximum of 2-3. A pre-qualifying event could be held if there is any need (and this could certainly be interesting to watch as well!). This will ensure at least 2-3 local heroes from each region in the grand final, thus keeping us fans from all over the world exited till the very end! It will also, I hope, provide the incentive for more local talent to practice for and test their skills in the regional qualifiers.
- As mentioned earlier, create WSC East Asia for 2014.
- Invitees to the WCS 2014 should be extended to people within the region only.
“So what about all those Koreans playing for EU / AM teams or other players playing for teams outside of their region? If this would be implemented it will be unfair to them.” someone will say I’m sure. No it won’t be unfair. They can fight for their spot as everyone else. It’s simply a matter of prioritizing. I’m sure most progamers can get on a flight now and then should it be required. If not, they will still have the chance to qualify (see 2 above).
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On August 10 2013 12:29 Elldar wrote:
What is most bothering to me about the games is the fundamental mechanics of sc2. The pathfinding, macro mechanics.
The pathfinding clumps up units making aoe damage much more effective.
The macro mechanics is balancing on the fine thread that every mechanics is in its own right broken.
Warp-gates nullifies defenders advantage and makes it tremendously harder to prepare properly for attacks and all-ins.
Larva inject give zerg extreme capabilities of remaxing and producing units and drones.
Mules speed up terrans productions to such a degree that spending 550 for 3rd CC for mules and scv is generally safe + makes scv kind of obsolete late game.
1. the pathfinding is awesome compared to bw and wc3 and it is your job as a good player to micro your units. Split them, arc them, dont run into aoe with balls.
2. Warpgate does not nullify defenders advantage. There is still a pylon needed that is either slightly away or can be attacked a bit easy, often it is not even possible to get an inbase pylon in rushes. There is still a ramp/choke that can be better defended. There is photon overcharge, the biggest buff to early protoss defense (in pvp)! There can be workers pulled to defend.
3. Saying the macro mechanics are so broken that they balance each other means they are not broken at all. Sure they are strong and it would be silly to play without them, but so are expansions. So you say expanding is broken as well, but it is balancing itself because every race can do it? Sounds silly to me, this is not "broken".
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GameHeart killed the viewing experience, at least for me.
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On August 10 2013 18:53 Stoffelhase wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 12:29 Elldar wrote:
What is most bothering to me about the games is the fundamental mechanics of sc2. The pathfinding, macro mechanics.
The pathfinding clumps up units making aoe damage much more effective.
The macro mechanics is balancing on the fine thread that every mechanics is in its own right broken.
Warp-gates nullifies defenders advantage and makes it tremendously harder to prepare properly for attacks and all-ins.
Larva inject give zerg extreme capabilities of remaxing and producing units and drones.
Mules speed up terrans productions to such a degree that spending 550 for 3rd CC for mules and scv is generally safe + makes scv kind of obsolete late game.
1. the pathfinding is awesome compared to bw and wc3 and it is your job as a good player to micro your units. Split them, arc them, dont run into aoe with balls. 2. Warpgate does not nullify defenders advantage. There is still a pylon needed that is either slightly away or can be attacked a bit easy, often it is not even possible to get an inbase pylon in rushes. There is still a ramp/choke that can be better defended. There is photon overcharge, the biggest buff to early protoss defense (in pvp)! There can be workers pulled to defend. 3. Saying the macro mechanics are so broken that they balance each other means they are not broken at all. Sure they are strong and it would be silly to play without them, but so are expansions. So you say expanding is broken as well, but it is balancing itself because every race can do it? Sounds silly to me, this is not "broken".
wtf? what are you talking about
How can u micro if the units you have cant do any micro? zealot, stalker for example, what are utalking about
2. They dont? One pylon? what if he have 5 pylons?
What if he warps in, and holy god it takes 5sec to warp in, holy god......Not defenders advantage u dont even know what u are talking about
3. Saying the....macro..mechanics..are..broken..he say that because......They are!!!!!!
Having 50 larva lategame is not macro...its clicking on the mouse!!!!!
They are broken, and it is one factor sc2 is declining (boring and stupid gameplay)
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1. splitting and flanking with zealots is not only possible but sometimes essential in max vs max fights. Stalker micro is key for holding any proxy, how can you say there is no micro at all involved?? Also in lategame, there is always improvement to perfect blinkplay.
2. All i said is that it does not NULLIFY all the defenders advantage. I gave you lots of points why, but you just chose to call me silly in some way.
3. I dont get what you want. Protoss can have 20-30 gates too if it goes to extremes. But why is that bad? Also there is a difference in my zerg macro abilities, the mediocre grandmaster player and world best zergs. Why? Because the simply have better macro and do better "clicking on the mouse".
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To be honest I don´t see the problems most of you guys have. There is plenty of SC2 content every single day! Mori09 for example, a german caster, has more viewers than he ever had before. We have a RO 16 with ~50k + viewers during the week.
And imo it is not Blizzards fault that more and more people are playing LoL. It would be if you consider LoL or DOTA a RTS-Game but they are not. If you want to play tennis, you go and play tennis and then it does not matter how often you are told that hockey is better because it might easier to follow or because you can play with friends as a team. It occurs to me that most of the criticism is about the RTS-Genre in general. Not about SC2.
Plus I don´t think that neither LoL nor DOTA are easier to get into. I tried both of them for countless (especially LoL because everyone seems to love it) hours and still I don´t have a clue what to do or what these games are about. Maybe I´m too stupid who knows...
Yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaars ago CSS was Esport #1 now it´s LoL. So what?! Times change, still there are more than enough players for SC 2.
I love the game the way it is. Maybe there is sth wrong with me. :X
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On August 10 2013 18:53 Stoffelhase wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 12:29 Elldar wrote:
What is most bothering to me about the games is the fundamental mechanics of sc2. The pathfinding, macro mechanics.
The pathfinding clumps up units making aoe damage much more effective.
The macro mechanics is balancing on the fine thread that every mechanics is in its own right broken.
Warp-gates nullifies defenders advantage and makes it tremendously harder to prepare properly for attacks and all-ins.
Larva inject give zerg extreme capabilities of remaxing and producing units and drones.
Mules speed up terrans productions to such a degree that spending 550 for 3rd CC for mules and scv is generally safe + makes scv kind of obsolete late game.
1. the pathfinding is awesome compared to bw and wc3 and it is your job as a good player to micro your units. Split them, arc them, dont run into aoe with balls. 2. Warpgate does not nullify defenders advantage. There is still a pylon needed that is either slightly away or can be attacked a bit easy, often it is not even possible to get an inbase pylon in rushes. There is still a ramp/choke that can be better defended. There is photon overcharge, the biggest buff to early protoss defense (in pvp)! There can be workers pulled to defend. 3. Saying the macro mechanics are so broken that they balance each other means they are not broken at all. Sure they are strong and it would be silly to play without them, but so are expansions. So you say expanding is broken as well, but it is balancing itself because every race can do it? Sounds silly to me, this is not "broken".
1. You can only micro so much before they auto-clump again and it mostly comes down to pre-battle preparations. Against spells like fungal, storm and emp the auto-clumping makes them so much better. And that is not something you run into emp and storm is instant casting and splitting units from storm is harder than casting good storms due to smartcast and easier interface. And protoss want to keep there units togheter and emp really abuse that too.
2. I think you don't know what defenders advantage mean. It is has to do with reinforcements not with defensive structures, the defender can noramlly reinforce easier than the attacker can but a warp-in outside the nat and that do not hold true any longer. Hence nullifies defenders advantage. Besides just because you theoratically can kill a forward pylon does not mean that it is possible.
3. I meant that they are broken if you look at them separately, and in different ways. In certain situations they were you can muster up 70 larva reflooding a max army, have no scvs that makes your army value higher than the other races or warp-in armies inside opponent base then yeah I think it makes the game coin-flippy and put other races in hard pressed situations.
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Blizzard is done for me, unless they would radically change their staff and management. If Riot or Valve would buy Starcraft brand that's when things would change for the better much quickly. I've lost almost all interest in Starcraft not only because of the game itself, and how it could be so much better if Blizzard implemented so many good community suggestions, but because it is apparent how poorly Blizzard is managing the game: Just comparing how good of a job Riot is doing with LoL makes SC2 laughable. And thus, i don't want to invest emotionally in a game that is doomed to fail sooner or later because the company that owns it, sucks.
Even though i much prefer RTS i actually started playing LoL because everything around the game is much better than SC2, making the first the better option.
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Oh, ask if they're gonna release a SCBW HD version, like how AoE HD got released lol
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I love sc2 more than any other game.
but with that said, blizzard and sc2 are doomed to fail as long as david kim and dustin browder are around.
I will not continue to support these know it alls with their piss poor decisions any longer. I have moved on from this game, sadly.
what a waste of 3 years of my time, it looked... so so promising too.
Enjoy it guys, this is about as good as it is gonna ever get because blizzard thinks they know it all.
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On August 10 2013 19:53 Elldar wrote:
2. I think you don't know what defenders advantage mean. It is has to do with reinforcements not with defensive structures, the defender can noramlly reinforce easier than the attacker can but a warp-in outside the nat and that do not hold true any longer. Hence nullifies defenders advantage. Besides just because you theoratically can kill a forward pylon does not mean that it is possible.
I think you don't know what defenders advatage mean. Sure reinforcement paths are a big thing here, but defenders advantage is literally anything that helps the defender such as a small ramp, highground vision benefits, the ability to pull workers into the fight, etc..
Also it is very common to deny proxypylons with speedlings or a defensive stalkerrush build, also reapers do that quite well, sure it does not succeed every game, but it is not as rare it sounds in your post.
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On August 10 2013 21:10 shivver wrote:
I love sc2 more than any other game.
but with that said, blizzard and sc2 are doomed to fail as long as david kim and dustin browder are around.
I will not continue to support these know it alls with their piss poor decisions any longer. I have moved on from this game, sadly.
what a waste of 3 years of my time, it looked... so so promising too.
Enjoy it guys, this is about as good as it is gonna ever get because blizzard thinks they know it all.
The TL forums calling out Blizzard on being know-it-all.
Now I've seen everything.
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EPT
