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On August 10 2013 02:04 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 01:59 renaissanceMAN wrote:
12 pages later this thread is still whining about balance and that's why sc2 is "dying"
did i get it right? That's pretty damn on the spot. I also see it's inspired by Strelok not having any major wins in the last idk how many months since HotS. I'm not one for picking in pros, but in this case, the frustration at a lack of total results seems to be pretty obvious here; some of these critiques seem to be so tied more personal issues than widespread blizz issues, such as the "Why are there so few terrans QQ."
i don't know, it just seems to me like alot of whinning with no data -.-'
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Taking a game part of my life needs more than just good gameplay, this is the reason I'm becoming more of an dota player even when it's nearly impossible to train and practice to become top tier dota player.
Valve has so good community support and they are active. We have now chat channels but they are so dead and there is no familiar faces. There was! WEC tournament and this guy "master" etc etc. All the circles are now dead and I don't know about the new ones.
I think it's good to compare dota client and sc2 client because we should've had those features in sc2 too and they would help immensly.
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On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote:
Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful.
I wonder if LotV won't change these fundamental problems, whether the community can muster the effort to create a SC2 pro mod. Not a BW remake and not single concepts implemented into SC2 which do not work on their own. It would have to convince a great part of the community from the start.
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Did the SC2 community not try this like... 3 times already?
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On August 10 2013 03:07 Kishin2 wrote:
Did the SC2 community not try this like... 3 times already?
Yeah, maybe if we just throw our arms up in the air, run around in circles, stare up into the sky when it's raining and then proceed to slowly die out then the problems will fix themselves!
You'd be hilariously blind to think this game isn't stagnating. One of the very key things noted in the OP is the fact that so many people retired from how the game even felt just playing at the pro level in WOL. There isn't a need for 'data'. Simply read the recent events in the SC2General section and you will see many posts that resonate with posts in WOL. People who are posting such silly remarks to these types of things, or brush off how other real, high level players feel, will come to a shocking realization at some point that this game isn't progressing at an optimal manner; and at some point, it will decline sharply from a severe lack of interest in its longevity.
I think Strelok and others have the right idea with this sort of thing. The problem is when the people they're trying to contact brush off their requests, and moreover, think nothing of their efforts because they believe others in the community think everything is okay - or even worse - they themselves believe it. Sadly, what lower league players, or random TL posters have to say should not be considered, almost at all, when thinking of how to optimally provide competition and a stable environment for pro players. It's mind boggling to me when the very people who play in the pro scene are ignored by the people who are supposed to be making tournaments for them.
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Love this write up! Hopefully Blizz wakes up.
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On August 10 2013 02:53 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote:
Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. I wonder if LotV won't change these fundamental problems, whether the community can muster the effort to create a SC2 pro mod. Not a BW remake and not single concepts implemented into SC2 which do not work on their own. It would have to convince a great part of the community from the start.
As long as David Kim and Dustin Browder are still at the helm the problems will be the same ... because they are connected to the core design of the game.
Stuff like "unit density" and "production capability" all lead to maximized dps which reduces the available time for a defender to react to attacks and this makes the game harder to play for new / lower skill players.
LaLuSh mentioned the Infestor nerf, but what was the real problem with Fungal Growth? The problem was that it was easily chained back to back ... because Zerg had 25+ Infestors and lots of energy for Fungals.
- What would happen if you couldnt control that many of them at the same time?
- What would happen if there was no smartcast and you had to pick individual Infestors or waste lots of energy?
- What would happen if your production and economy didnt allow you to get more than five Infestors?
Fungal Growth would be less of a problem. Oh and ...
- What would happen if the opponent started with spread out units instead of forcibly clumped up units?
It is pretty easy to see that the really big problems are the ones which Blizzard completely ignores (because it would have been the wisest choice to fix them at the end of WoL).
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Strelok has the right idea but until a profession who WINS a major tournament actually says onstage something like "Yes, I won in a game that Blizzard has killed," Blizzard won't pay attention. Countless threads wont have the same impact as live criticism in front of an audience of tens/hundreds of thousands of viewers.
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On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote:
SCII becoming less popular. By little or by much? I don't know. But you can't ignore the fact, that instead of developing we start to get at least stagnation, if not worse. I was trying to contact Blizzard for several reasons during WoL. The reasons were different. I didn't get response for my feedback even a single time. I tried to talk with stuff from Blizzard, but no success. Even special meetings which were made for such a "discussions" were just for "V" in their diaries, not for discussion. I still remeber how in august 2012 in Germany progamers gathered together and tried to discuss with David Kim infestors and their imbalance in very late game, but he simply refused to listen. During next several months after that - huge number terran/protoss players retired. Noone wants to loose just because it's almost impossible to win. Maybe, if he listened, that wouldn't happen.
So i am writing here the open letter to Blizzard. Maybe now, they will answer for at least some of those questions.
1. Do you like how Starcraft develops? What do you plan to do to remain on level with such games as Dota, World of Tanks and LoL?
2. How WCS develops SCII scene? What will you say if WCS will be having top-8 each region as koreans? How will it help to develop young talents all over the world? How in general the participation of korean players who live and practise in Korea and then come to Europe and NA for 1-2 days for playing WCS and taking money away to Korea "develops" European and NA scene of Starcraft II?
3. In continuation to previous questions. Don't you fear that WCS will simply kill small(medium) online/lan events, because noone takes care of them, since WCS is always on a screens? And if it will be happening like that, how young potential stars can develop? There won't be small cups and big cups are taken by koreans in all 3 regions? Who will invest money in youngsters then?
4. Which are your nearest plans regarding battle.net upgrades? Why during all that time you still didn't make channels, like in SC:BW, where people from 1 region appear in a channel and can easily discuss stuff with friends? Don't you feel like every person feels "forever alone" in SC2? Why person can't race pick against every race, because it doesn't like, for example, mirrors?
5. What do you think about situation, in which terran as race almost disappeared from GML league in EU and NA servers? (47 from 200 in NA, 49 from 180 in Europe). Not so long ago you said that "Protosses simply lack of good players". So what happened to terrans then?
Dear community, if you agree with me - spread this letter wherever you can, add your questions (the biggest ones i will add in my first post). Only together we can manage to reach Blizzard and make them to answer to REALLY PROBLEMATIC questions. And even if with our efforts - we won't manage to get the answer... Well that will be also an answer from Blizzard to all of us. Now we can change something to a good side. Later - who knows?
1. i'm sure they like how it developes. the games are more exciting to watch than WoL and we'll most likely have a multitude of famous major events for the next 5+ years with enough viewers to sustain a pro scene.
2. NA or EU only tournaments are just not very interesting to watch. viewer numbers reflect that. this is a two-edged sword. on the one hand it's demotivating for a lot of foreigners to see the korean dominance, on the other hand no one cares about foreign-only tournaments. there's not much one could do.
3. small lans dont develope young players. no one EVER cared about small lans EVER. no one ever gets to hear about the winner of some small lan. young talents develope online. small lans are played and will be played because gamers like to get together and play offline.
4. good questions/ideas, i guess.
5. interesting, didnt know. obviously terran will see some buffs then.
On August 10 2013 04:14 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 02:53 SinCitta wrote:On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote:
Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. I wonder if LotV won't change these fundamental problems, whether the community can muster the effort to create a SC2 pro mod. Not a BW remake and not single concepts implemented into SC2 which do not work on their own. It would have to convince a great part of the community from the start. As long as David Kim and Dustin Browder are still at the helm the problems will be the same ... because they are connected to the core design of the game. Stuff like "unit density" and "production capability" all lead to maximized dps which reduces the available time for a defender to react to attacks and this makes the game harder to play for new / lower skill players. LaLuSh mentioned the Infestor nerf, but what was the real problem with Fungal Growth? The problem was that it was easily chained back to back ... because Zerg had 25+ Infestors and lots of energy for Fungals. - What would happen if you couldnt control that many of them at the same time? - What would happen if there was no smartcast and you had to pick individual Infestors or waste lots of energy? - What would happen if your production and economy didnt allow you to get more than five Infestors? Fungal Growth would be less of a problem. Oh and ... - What would happen if the opponent started with spread out units instead of forcibly clumped up units? It is pretty easy to see that the really big problems are the ones which Blizzard completely ignores (because it would have been the wisest choice to fix them at the end of WoL).
so people still want SC2 to be a BW clone? i think it would do more harm than good. BW fanboys would be a little happier, but there's a serious risk the player number would plummet.
never thought about that?
let me rephrase that. SC2 is a really really famous game right now. one of the best performing competitive games we have. the only competitive RTS we have. you wanna completely rework a game so many people love and you think it will attract more people because it's more like BW then? that's not a very sound plan, in my opinion.
if you guys dont like SC2, why cant you just let it go? you're not pro anyway. go play BW. accept SC2 isnt BW2. i know it's hard. i have to accept CSGO isnt CS1.6 too. i know that feeling, trust me.
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I think blizzard should consider dropping the price of HOTS or im not sure if they do or not but offer cheap combo packs of both WOL and HOTS. Perhaps both for $49.99 so new ppl can come into the scene and learn the game. No one in their right mind is going to pay $70-$90 for a new game they haven't had a chance to truly try. (RTS is harder to sell). Should be a lower rate imo and perhaps hots expansion prices should be down a bit too. Just to give us that boost to the game base. Dota2 and League are all free to play so we need to look at lowering the cost for newer gamers to the scene. We have a great product don't get me wrong but not many gamers are going to be running to an RTS to start with. Most gamers are more familiar with FPS and the more accessible MOBA's. Just some food for thought.
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On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote:
[...]
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
[...]
Are you sure? At max supply at "No Upkeep" (50/100supply )there a fights after fights... unlike sc2. The most boring part is the time to max their untis from 50 to 70 or 100 supply, but even there are more fights than in sc2.
And yes, I really hate that nobody wants to attack if both are at max supply in sc2.
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beg I think the word your looking for is popular. It's pretty popular, but lets not over-exaggerate. As far as competition goes. BW and WC3 still exist like many other RTS games. They're still competitive. They don't take center stage though and that's always been true. One RTS usually holds the main stage. It's very rare that both do and I guess you could make an argument for China and their WC3 scene while the Korean BW pro scene was going on at the same time. Even if the game were a little different it would be a niche market regardless. Blizzard dumbed down the game by a lot. RTS games were never meant to be mainstream.
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On August 10 2013 04:33 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 18:34 Strelok wrote:
SCII becoming less popular. By little or by much? I don't know. But you can't ignore the fact, that instead of developing we start to get at least stagnation, if not worse. I was trying to contact Blizzard for several reasons during WoL. The reasons were different. I didn't get response for my feedback even a single time. I tried to talk with stuff from Blizzard, but no success. Even special meetings which were made for such a "discussions" were just for "V" in their diaries, not for discussion. I still remeber how in august 2012 in Germany progamers gathered together and tried to discuss with David Kim infestors and their imbalance in very late game, but he simply refused to listen. During next several months after that - huge number terran/protoss players retired. Noone wants to loose just because it's almost impossible to win. Maybe, if he listened, that wouldn't happen.
So i am writing here the open letter to Blizzard. Maybe now, they will answer for at least some of those questions.
1. Do you like how Starcraft develops? What do you plan to do to remain on level with such games as Dota, World of Tanks and LoL?
2. How WCS develops SCII scene? What will you say if WCS will be having top-8 each region as koreans? How will it help to develop young talents all over the world? How in general the participation of korean players who live and practise in Korea and then come to Europe and NA for 1-2 days for playing WCS and taking money away to Korea "develops" European and NA scene of Starcraft II?
3. In continuation to previous questions. Don't you fear that WCS will simply kill small(medium) online/lan events, because noone takes care of them, since WCS is always on a screens? And if it will be happening like that, how young potential stars can develop? There won't be small cups and big cups are taken by koreans in all 3 regions? Who will invest money in youngsters then?
4. Which are your nearest plans regarding battle.net upgrades? Why during all that time you still didn't make channels, like in SC:BW, where people from 1 region appear in a channel and can easily discuss stuff with friends? Don't you feel like every person feels "forever alone" in SC2? Why person can't race pick against every race, because it doesn't like, for example, mirrors?
5. What do you think about situation, in which terran as race almost disappeared from GML league in EU and NA servers? (47 from 200 in NA, 49 from 180 in Europe). Not so long ago you said that "Protosses simply lack of good players". So what happened to terrans then?
Dear community, if you agree with me - spread this letter wherever you can, add your questions (the biggest ones i will add in my first post). Only together we can manage to reach Blizzard and make them to answer to REALLY PROBLEMATIC questions. And even if with our efforts - we won't manage to get the answer... Well that will be also an answer from Blizzard to all of us. Now we can change something to a good side. Later - who knows? 1. i'm sure they like how it developes. the games are more exciting to watch than WoL and we'll most likely have a multitude of famous major events for the next 5+ years with enough viewers to sustain a pro scene. 2. NA or EU only tournaments are just not very interesting to watch. viewer numbers reflect that. this is a two-edged sword. on the one hand it's demotivating for a lot of foreigners to see the korean dominance, on the other hand no one cares about foreign-only tournaments. there's not much one could do. 3. small lans dont develope young players. no one EVER cared about small lans EVER. no one ever gets to hear about the winner of some small lan. young talents develope online. small lans are played and will be played because gamers like to get together and play offline. 4. good questions/ideas, i guess. 5. interesting, didnt know. obviously terran will see some buffs then. Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:14 Rabiator wrote:On August 10 2013 02:53 SinCitta wrote:On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote:
Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. I wonder if LotV won't change these fundamental problems, whether the community can muster the effort to create a SC2 pro mod. Not a BW remake and not single concepts implemented into SC2 which do not work on their own. It would have to convince a great part of the community from the start. As long as David Kim and Dustin Browder are still at the helm the problems will be the same ... because they are connected to the core design of the game. Stuff like "unit density" and "production capability" all lead to maximized dps which reduces the available time for a defender to react to attacks and this makes the game harder to play for new / lower skill players. LaLuSh mentioned the Infestor nerf, but what was the real problem with Fungal Growth? The problem was that it was easily chained back to back ... because Zerg had 25+ Infestors and lots of energy for Fungals. - What would happen if you couldnt control that many of them at the same time? - What would happen if there was no smartcast and you had to pick individual Infestors or waste lots of energy? - What would happen if your production and economy didnt allow you to get more than five Infestors? Fungal Growth would be less of a problem. Oh and ... - What would happen if the opponent started with spread out units instead of forcibly clumped up units? It is pretty easy to see that the really big problems are the ones which Blizzard completely ignores (because it would have been the wisest choice to fix them at the end of WoL). so people still want SC2 to be a BW clone? i think it would do more harm than good. BW fanboys would be a little happier, but there's a serious risk the player number would plummet. never thought about that? let me rephrase that. SC2 is a really really famous game right now. one of the best performing competitive games we have. the only competitive RTS we have. you wanna completely rework a game so many people love and you think it will attract more people because it's more like BW then? that's not a very sound plan, in my opinion. if you guys dont like SC2, why cant you just let it go? you're not pro anyway. go play BW. accept SC2 isnt BW2. i know it's hard. i have to accept CSGO isnt CS1.6 too. i know that feeling, trust me.
funny enough, i have to agree. If you don't like sc2 come back to BW (;
Strelok, you gonna play TLS3 ? :>
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On August 10 2013 04:33 beg wrote:
so people still want SC2 to be a BW clone? i think it would do more harm than good. BW fanboys would be a little happier, but there's a serious risk the player number would plummet.
never thought about that?
let me rephrase that. SC2 is a really really famous game right now. one of the best performing competitive games we have. the only competitive RTS we have. you wanna completely rework a game so many people love and you think it will attract more people because it's more like BW then? that's not a very sound plan, in my opinion.
if you guys dont like SC2, why cant you just let it go? you're not pro anyway. go play BW. accept SC2 isnt BW2. i know it's hard. i have to accept CSGO isnt CS1.6 too. i know that feeling, trust me.
If a game is good people will play it even if newer expansions come out. Look at Age of Empires 2, it just got a HD version. I wonder how many copies of BW HD or Wacraft 3 HD Blizz would sell.
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I can't relate anymore to any sc2 player, or the current metagame.
too many random akward korean kids destroying players we've grown to like dureing a couple of years, and it's just depressing and frustrating. koreans beeing able to play the WCS NA and EU are a slap in the face.
the metagame has been stalling for longer tho. I believe it all started with the PvP 4gate snoozefest. Then the TvT with Viking flower/tank thing, with 2rax bunker rush vZ. then ling/baneling in ZvZ. But people got around that eventually. it was just too boring to watch. now, it's all medivac drops... hellbat is worse than the warhound, man... pvp is still a 1 base bullshit... I mean, it might have changed, but I just won't watch it anymore. SC2 has lost all the appeal to me. HotS didn't change it tho, and it costs a LOT for an expansion package, so I won't buy it, even with the 25% discount.
Dota OTOH is rising, with exciting matches, way less "cast plastered" or cheesy, and even the easterns are more accessible and less akward than sc2 koreans, which makes it a plus.
IMO, Blizaard has put the final nail in SC2 coffin with the WCS thing. Specially putting it in the hands of NASL. Hiring the IPL people clearly accomplished nothing, the "content" they've been making is deplorable.
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On August 10 2013 07:07 JP Dayne wrote:
pvp is still a 1 base bullshit... I mean, it might have changed, but I just won't watch it anymore...
Yes, relish in your ignorance. We saw some excellent PvPs in WCS Europe this week and we are about to see a lot more with all the toss that advanced to the RO8. I have no problem with your opinion, but given that you admit you don't watch pvp, I don't respect it and I can tell you, you are wrong.
And the examples you give of WOL stagnation actually prove the opposite: those builds didn't stick around because the metagame DID change.
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make wcs complete offline, at least the premiar league and then split the top8 like in korea over weeks, with that a korean would have stayed as long in germany/usa as foreigns had to stay in korea ... would lower the number i think and every foreign premium league player should have a team to support him stay the time in germany/usa (LA)
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I think Terran is Op that Just your effort a few lack
case of WCS KR, GF balance is T3 P2
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the only important question for blizzard right now is probably why a casual player like me who is losing 30 games in a row gets 2000p master league players and then plays gm players, the logic behind that is mindboggling
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On August 09 2013 19:07 ErrantKnight wrote:
I agree on the big lines but for everything concerning current balance, I think it's still too early to say anything.
respectfully...its been 3 years since full sc2 release...i know only a few months since HOTS launch but we cant use the excuse "its too early" for 3 more years then LOTV then "its too early" for another 3 years BW had its final balance change in 2001... 98-01 = 3 years...thats all it took...now is when we need to stand together as a community and say that if they dont change this we cant play this forever because its been a few weeks since dota 2 full release...what else needs be said?
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EPT
